While you were Away: DTC Playbook

we're traveling. We're traveling with Rubio, very high style but also accessible. I'm just gonna say accessible. What's going on today? So we have Jen Rubio, co founder of a Way Luggage in parentheses. We talked to her about the parentheses because they are going to become I think, much much more than just luggage. UM in a studio with us today in between flights and a badass away bag. Yeah, that Camo Green is awesome. New products coming out. It

looks like UM. But it's been interesting. We've been obsessing over the DTC landscape for quite some time now, having a lot of fun watching sort of the cohort of founders that exist there, trading notes, comparing best practices, and actually executing on them. I think one of the things that I love the Gen talks about in this interview that is important I think for marketers to think about is how not just brands, but their leadership is living

out the brand. I r L and I think it'll be interesting to hear how she thinks about marketing, communications and as much as collaborations and how all of those things have to reflect the platform before products. Yeah, and she has like five titles. We were joking around with her, but she is also the chief brand officer, and in in the beginning like talking to her about like what

does that really mean? And I think, you know, there are a lot of people who are talking about how brand is more important and kind of takes a different life in DTC, and I think DTC brands are going to teach the world of marketing, um really how to bring brand back and make it meaningful. They are mad woke marketers. You're into the woke. Yeah, it's like a thing, right, So now we woke with Jen Rubio. We'll be right back. So welcome back. We're in the studio with the most

fabulous woman in all of travel and more. Probably Yeah. Yeah, Roland Deep with her luggage here at the studio in Brooklyn this morning. It's just the prop. There's nothing in it. So Jen is the co founder and chief brand officer and president of A Way. I'll tell you all of that. No, we looked it up. I looked it up. Is that what you go by? Do you go by chief brand officer? What do you do? They say? A co founder? Yeah? Okay, Like what's a chief brand officer? Well, so that's I wanted.

We wanted to get into that. That's like perfect. What is the chief brand officer? I don't know. I literally don't know, especially for like a DTC brand, Like, what is the chief brand officer? Well, you know, brand is our moat um. You know how many times I said that when we were seed fundraising and how many vcs were like, I don't think so that's hilarious. Yeah, I think you know what it's Uh, there's been a lot of talk lately about about new DTC companies like post Away,

because I feel like we're phased to phase one. Was like the warby Parker, like Cobos and like Casper towards the end of that and then came like our wave like Away Glossier, and now there's this new wave, and I feel like there's a lot of vcs who are like, oh, brand is a moat DTC and they just start funding them. But I start seeing these decks like come my Way, and I'm like, but this this isn't a brand. That's

the same deck that we just saw. You actually had an awesome comment the other day on your I was looking at your Twitter and someone said something about, you know, vcs or over funding DTC brands, and you said, yes, brand is start to become like in the minds of vcs, like people are thinking about it as just a deck and a logo and that is absolutely wrong. Yeah, And I mean I actually our seed deck was real bad.

I like made it empower point, like put a bunch of bloggers on it and like a picture of the globe and I'm not a designer, um, and I was like, this is a travel brand. But I think you know, when we were talking about it to the people who ended up investing so like Forerunner and Comcast and Excel, They're like, Okay, we know we're gonna look past this deck.

And we started talking about what the brand would really be in terms of like, how are we going to partner with people, how's the product going to play into it, how are we gonna how are we going to talk about this in a way that that is really a brand And I think what a lot of people do nowadays, and more power to these agencies that do it is we'll go to an agency who's like really amazing at like at brand identity and brand architecture and like and

like and gives you like a really good like brand bible, and they're like, this is it. But then it launches like there was not really a community around it, and everyone's like, oh, what happened? They had such a nice deck.

Having sat on the agency side for the last decade, it's interesting to see the transition in terms of where agencies are filling holes for certain brands and understanding the value of community, ethos, purpose value, all of those things, even before they land on what the purpose and the

value prop is for the product. A Way to Me is one of those brands and where you've obviously created an innovative suitcase, but at the heart of it sort of the community that you've built around the democratization of travel and kind of leaning into some of the things that the next generation of people is looking for in equipment to move from city to city. Can you talk about what that looked like when you were developing the brand in terms of where did you want to put

the emphasis on outward facing. I think we went into this. I tell a story different every time because I'm actually not sure what came first, like the product or the brand, But I think we went to this thinking, if you're going to buy utcase, there aren't a lot of great options. You can spend like a thousand dollars on a bag and it might be cool and all designed, but it's not like when you spend like a thousand dollars on

a nice handbag. You're not like, oh I love this, or you are spending less money, but you know it's going to break. And you know, having come from Morby Parker and um my co founder stuff was at Casper at the time, we're like, Okay, maybe luggage is one of those industries where we can do high quality product, lower price point, cut out the middleman, all of that stuff.

But then I think as we were looking into it, what really resonated with me more as the chief brand officer um is that, like no one was talking about travel. So you have all these incumbent brands that are like, look at our ballistic nylon and look at these wheels and look at the zippers, and this is something that people take with them on every trip. People are super annoying when they talk about travel. It's like all they talk about. It's all they post pictures of. So how

come no one's talking about that? Yeah, and the art of packing in the I mean there's so it's like it's like to true like art and lifestyle. And I think if it wasn't for that opportunity, I don't know how far I personally would have gotten in this because I'm not like super stoked about like, hey, here's like a suitcase. And I love our product obviously, we like we poured like everything into into designing it and making

it perfect. But if there wasn't a way to market it or talk about it in the sense of a larger brand, I don't know how far we got in a Way suitcase. And I gave it to Laura and all my friends. Yeah, and all my friends are obsessed with their Way suitcase, all of them obsessed into the actual physical product. Are they buying into the brand. Yes, they're buying into the physical product. They love the brand. The brand is so much a part of the physical products.

It's so and it's so intertwined. And I think the way we've done it is that we went we went so narrow on the product in the beginning, where it's like we're not going to make ten suitcases for ten different types of travel or whenever we're gonna make. We literally went out saying this is the one perfect suitcase for everyone. And now there's like a few different versions based on what we've learned about our customers. But we went so narrow on the product. We literally launched with

one products in one size and four colors. We're like, we'll see um. But then we went so wide on the brand. So from the beginning we couldn't get the domain and we still don't have it. Um dot com it's a way travel dot com, but we had like Away Luggage dot comment is like this, we can't do Away luggage dot com. It's like two narrow and we're

just thinking about it. We always talked about ourselves as a travel brand, even though we had literally one bag, and I think that's what made the brand feel so ingreened. I was with someone the other day and it was with a group of people and someone like hadn't heard of a Way, which means you probably just haven't been

targeted on Instagram yet. But he was like, oh, maybe I have in a Way suitcase and someone else in the group was like, no, if you had one, you would like you don't just like have one, and you're like, okay, um, and then he was like, oh, yeah, well I did research um luggage for weeks and uh, I was like searching over the place. I had ton of reviews and I ended up buying one and I was like, which one did you get? And he was like I don't know.

And I'm like, how do you research something for three weeks and you don't even know what brand you end up buying thinking something? So I mean that's the kind of stuff that we are. There's so much low hanging fruit, like in the luggage industry. But then for us for it to be like, you know, we don't have experience in the luggage industry, we had to do a ton of research and like partners a lot of experts to make the product really good. But like what we're passionate

about is travel. I think that's what's allowed the company and the team to to grow so quickly. The discovery thing is interesting because the amount of times, like especially as somebody coming in and I haven't been married yet, so I had never had a shower where I was gifted at luggage, sort of those preconceived notions of when you're supposed to get your first set. We went full fledged and to our corporate jobs, like all of us sitting around the table, like on the road all the time.

The amount of pieces of luggage that I've gone through over the course of my career is nuts, but it's interesting. Like the discovery process was always like I was in Home Goods or t J Max, or like my mother's like, here's an extra carry on, or like my mom always gives it to you. What is that the basement? And my mother buys like a set and gives my husband

and I like the big one. She's like, now that we've had a kid, She's like, but those are those are all I feel like traditional ways of passing down this thing that you needed when people didn't used to travel at the capacity or right that I'm sure some of us are and I think it's interesting just as you're you're talking through it and like the discovery of this guy and going through this research, you change the way I think our generation thought about buying this thing,

and that they actually do think about it now. It's not even people who just who travel a ton who think about it. Because I was traveling when I worked at All Saints. I was traveling to all of our stores all over the world, like two hundred thousand miles a year, and I still had I don't even know what brand of luggage, Like, I just had it, like my mom gave it to me, and it was likely the last thing I thought about. And I think people are now seeing it as part of They're like, I'm

literally carrying this thing with me around the world. It's time to think about it. You're getting in you know, what's the identity that you're you're moving like it is an identity thing. Yeah, for sure. I mean like you wouldn't buy car and be like, I don't know what kind of car. I have research it for three weeks and I'm not sure where I So you So you

were speaking at Social Media Week yesterday. You were key noting a lot of tweets, and I think a lot of people have been asking this question, like is a way more than suitcases? And we know, yes, it definitely is. But I would love for you to kind of talk about where is a way going? And so is it easier for a brand like Away DTC to actually quickly move into other areas in an industry? So I think we are uniquely positioned because I mean, travel is so broad,

it's so easy, and it's it's so fun, right. I think there's a lot of things like you know, Casper wants to be like a sleep brand. They're not a mattress brand, wellness brand. Well, I mean, I'm starting to get in. There's so many directions. But but inherently, like people don't talk about sleep that much or um, so there's like there's a whole movement around that. But travel

was such an easy thing to plug into. So I do think that we can attribute a lot of like the excitement around it to that and like travel on Instagram and all these things that just like marry Airbnb, I mean, the industry has thing for us again because we went so wide with the brand and people were like, Okay, here's like a cool travel brand. Oh, they only make

one thing, I'll buy it. Um. But I think through a lot of the things we've done, like the marketing, like the way we do social media, like the events we do in our store, all of that stuff, people are like, oh, this is inherently like a travel brand, so it's not weird. When we um like what we did last year we went to Paris Fashion we can did a pop up hotel, people were like, oh, Away is doing a hotel? Makes sense. If we did something with an airline, people say that makes sense, I would

get on that plane. So I think. I think just the way we talk about travel has allowed all of those doors to kind of be open to us. And when we do want to go into other things, like when we did a magazine, um, and a lot of people are doing so you do quarterly so just Casper like a quarterly print magazine. But people are like, Okay, there's a bunch of travel magazines out there. They don't really appeal to me, but like, I like a way as a brand, so I'm going to read what they

have to say. And the magazine has been doing really well. There's like the ad revenue has been great, like it reaches a really targeted group of because it goes in every suitcase, so it reaches a really targeted group of people that you know are about to travel so um. And and the content is great because that's not our main business. So we're like, let's just talk about whatever we want. Yeah, let's talk about what we think is

cool and yeah in a way representing an idea. I think it's really is really interesting that and you know, broader than just luggage or product or. We have a couple editors, they're from they're all from Conde. We have a lot of our contributors amazing Bilze. No, actually we didn't go to any of the travel magazines, but we have just have like amazing writers who worked for other big magazines but never get to talk about this stuff. So um. So we're like a little retreat for them.

When we launched that, we were like, Okay, at its worst, we have a really cool editorial site, and at its best it could be its own business. But since that was not the goal from the beginning, we could focus on the content that we wanted to put out. And I think that's the same thing, Like, it's really good if we if we look at ways of travel brand,

But our core monetization strategy is selling luggage. It's really a platform to do so many other things, so we can you know, we're not going to go buy a ton of real estate and open a bunch of hotels, but like, what do we know about the experience in the brand and what people want to do that that could make a really great hotel experience and who do we partner with to do that? And because people love the brand, it's not it's not weird for them to

stay there. Like who doesn't have If you don't have wonder Less, you're missing a chip right in my opinion, right exactly. And I think everyone has their own way of traveling, which we recognize. We haven't been like we're for business travelers or were for like super luxury traveling. We just we know everyone I know, like even one person has a few different ways of traveling, you know, like how I travel when I go to see my boyfriend versus like when I'm traveling for work. It's it's

like it's totally different, totally different. Yeah, I was going to say earlier, and you both hit on it. This idea that what you built and what I think a lot of your cohort in the DCC space you talked about Glossier and Casper in this whole family of brands, is that you all are creating platforms before you're thinking about product. Product just happens to be one tenant of

this larger platform. So it's giving you the space to kind of go in and say content stands up next, or you know, who knows you might move into a completely different line of things within that category, Which is what we're getting to. How much is your community informing that? Right? So you know we've seen you know, messaging that you've put out where like the pink suitcases backed by popular demand.

You went and partnered with Carl Kloss to create this partnership around you know, her initiative with code with Class. How much is a community informing what those pillars become and how are you evolving the product as a result. I mean, they they're informing everything. So I think we kind of It was really hard for me the beginning. It was like a big not at all. I was like, no, this is what they want and it was actually like

such a blessing. My co founder it was in business school and she was really into focus groups and research and surveys um, and then we get there's all and I like, huh, that's weird, um, But they do. They do inform everything because I really think, you know, I think when people think DTC, they're like, Okay, the advantage is in you're cutting out the wholesale markup and it's like the product price advantage and you're getting the data. Yeah.

The real advantage that people don't think about is like that feedback loop. So so if we sold our luggage and department stores, we would just get a report like monthly, quarterly, whatever, saying here's what sold, here's what didn't sell. You're getting it back. Here's the return rate if that, and you have no idea why anytime someone returns or exchanges a suitcase, we know exactly why, Like there are things we can

work on. How would we have known that, you know, maybe the straps inside the bag could have been like an inch longer, but people tell us that. And I think also because we started putting it into practice really early, people see things like okay, we did a limit edition of the paint. They wanted it, so we made it.

So now people are like, oh, they listen, so they give us even more So it just we just have I think the problem that we have, which is a great problem to have, is like there's so much feedback to go through and there's so much data to analyze, and how do you make sure that Okay, if you have like two cohorts of customers who want different things, like how do you do it? So now we're in that phase of of how to listen. But I think because from the beginning, we've always listened to people, and

that's how we designed the product. Like when we're like, Okay, if we're gonna make one bad, we can't screw this up. So we interviewed hundreds of people about like the weirdest things, like we would like watch people pack because people are really bad at describing that. Um. But that's how we designed our first product, and so that's like inherently been part of of our model. Like listen. I think it's it's it's cool to be like a director consumer entrepreneur

right now. And I think that people who are going into it being like Okay, I'm going to start a warby Parker for whatever, they don't think about the feedback loop. They don't think about all of the other things that actually are what makes a director consumer brand because you're You're like, you don't become a director because brand, because

like distribution is easy. There were so many opportunities in the beginning and still now we're like, if we turn this on, or if we partner with this, or if we just sell whole sales with this partner, and they're like, they're good partners. That's an easy million dollars on top. But but you have to have a long term view of like your customer relationship and your community and all

of that stuff. And I think I think a lot of people right now are starting brands and then they get approached by you know, like a traditional retailer, like a big name department store, and it's like very easy to want to say yes to that, but you don't think about what you're giving up in the long term. That's the most surprising feedback you've gotten in your loops. Oh god, Uh. What's been surprising is how particular people are in giving their feedback. And I'm like, um, I'm

like a lazy survey taker. I have to do all the things. They never put any comments. We get like essays, essays of stuff, And I think it goes back to like we're sitting around in the office like a, hey, what do we do with this? You know, like how do we actually synthesizes? But UM, but it's been amazing the all these people are that we're really good like test takers, UM, because they the detail in these essays is incredible. So you were talking about kind of like

parsing out the feedback and the data. We don't talk about data a lot, especially with chief brand officers, co founders, entrepreneurs, presidents. Do you guys have like a like a little kick ass group of analysts and data scientists that they're all so much smarter than me. I'm like, this is cool. Can I get a summary UM TABLEW Like, I'm going to leave the Slack channel and you can just tell me to take a picture of UM. We have to have a data team, we have an insights team UM.

And what we've been really tried to be really good about is like is that they don't operate on their own. They're not just like looking at numbers and like looking at feedback base sickly. Everyone is super involved in the feedback. So even UM, like our our customer experience team, they get tons of emails like from all these customers who are now their best friends. They like funnel that in

all the right places. So anytime a customer says something about the product, like it goes right to the product team. Uh So it doesn't feel like there's clusters of people who just look at the data and that's it. That's what a lot of people get hung up on doing. Like they're collecting data, they're collecting insights, and then nothing

ever happened. And that's like an organizational issue as well as like just a mindset issue, right, Like it's like how you staff, but it's also about creating those pipelines and saying that there's a little bit this should be three dimensional. Yeah, it can't just be like a pool of data, right, like the data sets that you're getting consequentially, like based on credit card data in store data, like

everybody has at some point similar sets. And let's be really like they're the bigger companies are doing a much better job collecting that stuff, but the problem is they don't know what to do. We actually probably have less data right now and like less sophisticated ways of looking at it. But the thing that makes the most difference is that it goes to the teams that can do

stuff about it. So like now we have our product design teams and designing stuff for for next year, and they're like, when we like piloted this bag with a group of people, here's like all the stuff they said, and they actually incorporate that in there. So we have some of the most data minded like designers and creatives, which before away they're like, I don't know this existed.

How did you get this info? Do you think that's a theme like that's coming in the industry more that we're going to be able to have like the creative side and the kind of more scientific side like working together for marketing, and that's going to drive product I hope. So, I hope. So. I mean, I think a lot of why it is the way it is is because of my relationship with my co founder. I mean she I can't remember which one is which, but left brain, right brain, whatever.

We're so each other's opposites. And in the beginning it was really easy because there's all these things that we had to do and it was very clear who had to do which thing, um, and we were like we weren't trying to land grab anything, and and I think obviously I know stuff. Maybe not obviously, but I do know stuff about the business, and she does know stuff

about the brand. But because we kind of like let each other naturally go into that, just naturally go into it, like we just got to be really good at it. And what we've done is like build out teams. You know, it started out just the two of us. Now there's like a hundred and fifty people, but we've like built out teams that that kind of reflect that. And but because we work so closely together, they all have to work so closely together. Even the way we um we

struck her marketing is a little bit different. So we have we have a VP of Growth Marketing who's like paid acquisition, retention, all that stuff, and then we have a VP of Brand Marketing. UM so we don't have one CML. But even like everyone on our acquisition team is like, we're looking at these acquisition costs and they would be way hire if it wasn't for all the stuff that the brand marketing team is doing, and all the brand market team does really cool stuff, but it

has to get amplified somehow. So I think it's we've kind of really taken that like that like art and science approach to everything out a way, like like the brand marketing team and the creative teams like have to look at how their stuff performed, like they think about r y. So it's it's like a we definitely train people and create the frameworks for them to think about it that way. But um, but I think that's what's

allowed us to do this. I think DTC is actually going to teach the industry this, like even how to organize in a different way. It makes it really hard for hiring, though I will say it doesn't think it really look at maybe you want to bring in like industry veterans with more experience to help guide a lot of the kind of early like young, super hungry, like ambitious people we've hired. But then it's like they don't know how to work within the structure. So that's that's

like a common theme in the industry. I think that people have been trained on these traditional models and then they get in these artup environments where the ethos has flipped from transaction to more value exchange in the sense of like content and creation and development and making, and like those things don't necessarily always translate and they're on equal levels now, like, so so there's a there's a

there's a big gap. I think there's people who have kind of grown up and climbed the ladders and worked in a lot of different startups, and there's people like there's like traditional marketers who are experienced with like bigger budgets and more platforms and kind of I mean, you don't want to throw away all of like traditional marketing, No,

I don't have to know how to do that. But then there's a gap of like, okay, so how do startups find really senior people who understand the way startups work but also but can like bring that team into

into moving into bigger budgets. A lot about like the unicorn effect of like those people who have the traditional chops have been in the industry and where they understand how to pull the levers on that channel mix, but have the guts and the creativity and the flexibility to challenge the way that model exists it right, so they know how to manipulate media in a way in which it can then translate for the next business and you're

thinking about business in a different way. I think you'll start to see a lot of these director consumer brands. As we all grow, as we spend more and more money on marketing. I mean we still work in a really lean and scrappy way, but like the budgets are getting bigger, we totally reach more people. What's going to happen is not that we take people used to those budgets and to those media mixes and like bring them

into our organization. It's like it's like our teams trying to figure out how to do that stuff for the first time. You're gonna go I mean you're gonna grow, You're gonna and you're gonna grow your people. Yeah, into that exactly. So you a lot of people talk about the DTC space, and us two co host on a podcast, we can attest to this. You know, DTC was fast

and furious in the podcast space. Early on. It was like the long standing joke like if you don't think cast for use in a way, you know, brush your teeth with a quip like you haven't listened to it. Yeah, DTC is basically basically yeah podcast industry. So but it's interesting in that you guys were figuring out how to be scrappy, but there was also this loyal listener base

there that was willing to convert. Was that a benownced thing in sort of the early bets that you placed with your I'm assuming scrappy startup marketing budget or was it a proxy of just like efficiency, like how are you plotting your marketing plan? You're two years old out of the gate and now you're I can't believe you out on Broadway with this like insane billboard. You know? Activation, what's been the evolution of of how you're thinking about

your marketing budget and planning. I think um Our our team has done an amazing job and that they really they're like portfolio managers and they come up over and over. By the way, this is amazing that word. A lot of the traditional markets, like you guys must spend a lot of money on on Facebook and Instagram, and like, yeah, we do. But it's like I think I live in fear of um building an entire brand or business around

one platform. And and as we've seen, like what happens when they change their algorithm, what happens when like you can't reach those people anymore? What happens when like Congress is like getting involved. There's always going to be like big ways to reach a lot of people and to do it really effectively. And I don't think those will change overnight that I think you're really like screwing yourself over if you're not thinking about other things. So from

the beginning, it wasn't like, Okay, pere's our budget. It's not that big, let's just throw it onto one platforms. We're always experimenting, you know, as we've raised more money, as we have we've sold a lot more suitcases, as we want to reach more people, we want to be able to turn those things on, but without having tried them, right, So it's not like one day we're gonna be like, oh, we're gonna we're gonna go on TV. You know, we are going to start doing like big national TV buys.

But over the last year they've been testing a lot of stuff and like like remnant buys and like local markets and um and testing creative on there. So we're never We're never throwing money at something without having tried it and tested it. And that was the thing with

pod casts. I think in the beginning there was a lot of like early testing a couple of podcasts here and there, um figuring out what kind of podcast creative work for us, or or what kinds of listeners were really into the product, And then when we were ready to make more meaningful investments in like podcast advertising, we knew how we wanted to do it. So I think even today there's so many different things that we're trying

out and not in like a huge meaningful way. But when we are ready to go into it big, it's a lot less risky for us. Why TV, Why are you going into TV? It's been really good for us, it's been really efficient. So Comcast is one of our

early investors. They have an amazing program. I'm not sure if it's just before their portfolio companies, but it's like this accelerate program that helps brings like us get into TV and they kind of guide you through, like here's how you make a direct response AD and now we talked to Lindy Acarino about this when she was on the show. Yeah, it's amazing, UM and we it's like like everyone at the startup, like none of us have

ever had experience in TV. But then you start testing it, you start to do small buys, and I think what's been really great for us is that we're not just doing like a TV buy and you're like, well, I hope it works. But they help you a lot with attributing UM the commercial to sales and UM and seeing if it's really working. And in our early test it's been really great. So I think we're gonna go every brand.

Every marketer just went what right? Yeah, it's crazy. I couldn't even explain it to you would be really embarrassing because now our data teams listening to this, you're like, what she's talking about. I think when you're a startup and you've limited budgets, you want to make sure what you're spending money on works. And I think that's why Facebook and Instagram are so great because they give you all of that data back and it's easy to like go to your marketing manager and be like, it's working,

let's put more money into it. I don't know, we just we'd like to like to make things in that on on the TV side, because it's interesting. So many brands that I've encountered over the last twelve eighteen months who are early stage age we can't be on TV.

We don't have enough money. And and I'm always like wrong thought because in reality and I think, you know, it's interesting that Comcast is partnering in in that way, and I think we're going to see more and more networks try to figure out how to partner with brands like you to set yourselves up for success of the future. Where yeah, early days remnant inventory mascale allows you to

get super niche in specific environments, etcetera. But at the same time, you know you might be able to place one big bet throughout the entire year with an insane story and insane creative I e. In the Super Bowl, in you know, some other tent pole award show throughout the year where your customer where you might be gift bagging influencers, I don't know, but point being interesting and

that nobody had that experience. So your first preconceived notion at a startup is like, I can't be there because I don't have enough money. But that's exactly I think. If you look at Okay, well, how much money you're spending on your shitty Facebook act. So if you if you only have early days, you'll have a couple hundred grand to spend. The return on like two grand of like of TV could be a lot bigger than two grand of like weird Facebook ads that you haven't tested.

So I mean, I think I think just we look at everything from an r OI perspective, and that's easier to analyze if if you are getting data, and I think not everyone knows how to get data from all

the places they're advertising. But it's like, I think there's there's a lot of safe options for marketing, but if you're not, Like, if you don't do it early on, you're never going to be ready to do it because it's not like one day you're gonna be like, oh, I have a thirty million dollar budget to do this, but we've never done it before, so you're going to be scared to go into TV. I think I want, I want to flip it to to the big brands. I mean the big brands. Actually, is this the case

every every CMO is going to barf? But like, is this the case for limiting budget, proving stuff out, really really testing. Everybody talks about test, iterate, right, fail, succeed, ranch off and go from there. I mean, but if they do it with everything with our retail stores, we've like we've never signed a long ways every time we go. I mean, I mean even the most obvious things were like I think a store would do well in New York.

We're like, O, hey, let's test it. So you sign a short term lease and you figure out if it works, you figure out how big it needs to be. We have a flagship store now on Lafayette and Bond, but we started with like with a little store on Houston and Lafayette. There's like six hundred square feet. Were like

too small. We figure out why people were shopping for the bags, and then we did like a bigger store in Soho and we're like, we don't need to be in Soho because we figured out we were like a destination. So by the time we are signing a long term lease and doing a bigger build out, we we know and we're not disguessing and we haven't signed a ten year lease and like throwing like two million bucks down

the drain. I think the way big brands think about it, they're like, O, we're going to test and iterate, but their tests cost but ten million dollars. Yeah that's not

that's not really but like, yeah, a million dollars. But I think there's a fundamental difference between return on investor in verse return on insight, because what you were just talking about in terms of figuring out why people are navigating to the store in a certain way, why the location and the context of that environment is going to

move a certain volume of sales. Some of the bigger guys, you see, they're just looking at the price and the margin and thinking about the rate and where can I squeeze the most money to reach this mass people, as opposed to saying, what is the context and the story that I'm telling him? What is that lifetime value then that I'm extracting from a consumer, I don't know if

enough people are measured on on the lifetime value. And I think I think that is one of the great things about DTC companies ventured backed is that all vcs I want to talk about is lifetime values. Everyone watch

in that position, that's all they want to talk about. So, I mean, I think there's a lot of things wrong with that, But one of the great things is that all all of these d DTC marketing teams look at that and they have a longer term view of these things versus cmos who are like a public company needs who are trying to get their quarterly numbers up right. Yeah, and it's like they don't care about LT because they're not gonna be even to that company. And if you

know that's I mean, yeah, a whole another show. It's a whole another freaking show. Tell us about how you guys think about partnerships, because you've done some really interesting partnerships. You started with like the n B A is like one of the one of the big and I was like actually shocked that away did something with the NBA. Can you like kind of talk about like what led you into the kind of by the way that you've done the Data and Growth market team is like breathing

a sigh, really for like, okay, can stop talking about this? Yes, So partnerships has been a huge part of what we've done. This was one of the things that when we were first raising money, we talked about partnerships a lot as part of like building the brand. And everyone was like, huh, but where's the logo And I'm like, okay, God, here's it's on the deck next to the next. But we talked about partnerships that we we talked about that's what it's going to make this a lifestyle. And because it's

like okay, like it's your luggage, but everyone travels. There's so many people who can talk about it, and we've really tried to capitalize on that. So I think one one of the things I'm really proud of that the brand has been able to do is like we've partnered with people from the n b A to Carly Class to the minions like Minis. But it's just like all

different people that we're reaching. So even when when we were thinking about creating the product, we're like, how do we make this a platform for collapse and for and for working with other brands. The suitcase lends itself really well to that because you can change the color, change aligning, do a lot of fun stuff with the packaging, change the destination. Yeah, and and and like for campaigns, it's really easy. So I mean, we just see a ways of platform for for doing a lot of this. I'm

just going to say that. I mean, at the end of the day, when you were talking about not investing in any platform, you are, Yeah, we are the platform. And I think that UM for US partnerships goes beyond product collaborations now. So for example, for the NBA UM if I'm remembering, they reached out to us about doing something. We timed it with All Star Weekend. We took our product and we said, how can we change this product in a way that can speak to the audience, And um,

it's a texture of a basketball. Have you guys seen it in real life? So it's a texture of a basketball. And all of my friends were into sports were like, oh, it's a basketball. Cool. And all of my like fashion friends were like, oh, I love this pebbled mother and oh my god, it's not pebbled moather. But okay. But but I think what we've been able to do is, like what the partnerships have been able us to do is really look at this as more of an accessory.

So we have people who will buy multiple suitcases of the same size. They must not live in New York. We have customers who have like three or four carry on because they see the collapse and they're like, oh wait, that's really cool and it's a limited edition. I wouldn't be a part of that. That's been awesome for a brand.

I think is we are going to continue doing more partnerships, and I think the way we look at everyone travels, but you know, how do you reach travelers in the music industry or travelers in the literally can't come up with another industry right now, and then we look at what brands and people are really relevant in that space,

and then we do something with that. You know, it's interesting, you know, thinking about the idea of a destination and obviously you serve a utility, but I'm interested in where you can move into it as a service. Right So, like I would love for Jen Rubio and Code to come and like pack my suitcase. I would love for you to kind of you you do have fabulous style, but also just you know, as you think about the platform, does the suitcase just then become the shell for what

is inside it and where it goes? And then does that completely broaden that platform in terms of what those collaborations could be your products that you develop. In the early days and you're starting out, there are smart luggage brands that were like had an app that could like tell you what to do, but it's like you get track your bag, track your bag. You could do all

this stuff. And in the long term, if you think about it, if that had worked and people cared enough about this brand to find out what their app was going to say about where they were going like it could have been really cool, but they're like, no one really cared what those brands had to say about their travel destinations because they were inherently just making like Kickstarter products.

It's funny because we've totally shied away from that, and we we were adamant that we didn't want to make an app, we didn't want to make all these all these platforms that were unnecessary. But now we have the brand where if we did do that, people would be like now and again it would be like, yeah, yeah, it makes sense, but we didn't lead with that. But now like we've kind of set ourselves up to be able to do that. I'm not saying we're going to like that's that's not in the road map right now.

But I think what's been interesting is because of the way we talk about it, because of the campaigns that we shoot. We have people calling like our customer service number and being like, oh, we saw you did um, like a photo shoot like in Panama? Where should I stay?

Like what hotel was that? And we're like so weird now and our team is amazing, like we'll call you right back, or like or people will just call and ask for recommendations like everywhere they see that we post and UM and I think it is that community and like they do trust us too to pack a certain way or to or to experience destinations a certain way that lets us kind of explore the experience and the

service side of it. So you guys should totally partner with UM Andrew Steenthal and get you know, text rax no, I want but I want to do like tex rex for travel you text rax baby. I want to talk about where to partnerships lead as something that we've talked a lot about and we're kind of obsessed with, is like when you start putting IP together, right when you start kind of like, um, this is like GMO right of brands basically like splicing brands together and creating something

new brands and products. I mean, are you guys exploring going a lot deeper in the kind of definition of partnership for a way. Yeah, And so we actually haven't even touched that yet. What we've done is we have a product that's a platform from other things. And we hate the word leverage, but we leverage other people's audiences and their tastes to affect our product. But we haven't even touched. Like what happens when away and another band

like create a new product together. What happens when we take like our travel expertise and experience in our community and apply that to someone else's product. We can't. We haven't done that. It's just been about changing away product and a lot of times like the way it looks and telling a story around the person we're partnering with. So I think we're just like at the tip of the iceberg with that stuff. But now that people want

more from us, like is it um? You know, like we have We have people all the time going to our store is saying, Okay, well, I'm I'm traveling on this trip. I also need like a great pair of like noise canceling headphones, or like what do I wear? I would follow in a minute if you told me, Alexa, this is cute, comfy you should be wearing you were on this plane. This is your plane outfit. There's like pride in plain outfits. By the way, Yeah, and it's

get down to science. You don't want pride in plain outfit. You look adorable. You could hop out everyone paying pants. You know. It's interesting because you were talking about like the community of DTC and how you're leveraging each other's audiences.

If we could just pivot for a second, because I think as a founder, one of the things that I've always admired and I'm fascinated about you and Emily Weis at Glossier and Whitney over at Bumble is the accessibility and willingness to let people into the world as your experiencing it with your brands and your products in real time. You're personal, I mean you also like you're out there

at Jennifer. It keeps me sane, though, does it? Like it's such like an old millennial thing to say, like just like being authentic, But it is sometimes when I'm going crazy and I'm like I'm on fifty flights this year, and I'm like, you know what this is, Like I need to stop complaining and like this is like what I love and what I want to do. And I think people are really like we're all like everyone you mentioned, we're all living our brands like we are, you know,

like Whitney is Bumble, like Emily is Glossier. Like we all really believe in in what we're talking about and what we're selling. And I think I think people can can tell and I've become influencers in your own right in those specific industries. And then I think also representatives stuff, but I think also representative of a genre, of the

next wave of brand. And like as you're talking, I'm trying to go through some of the mega conglomerate portfolio brands and like a camp pinpoint who the executive is and b can't think about like how they're living out that brand, like Leaya Coca. Yeah, even if you think about like even Mike Dubitt from Dollar Ship Club, like he put himself out there like it wasn't on social media, but he did. He did that video and people are like, oh,

he's like he's behind this. But because it is trending now, there is a wave of brands of like people selling stuff that they don't care about. But I think those things will weed themselves out. Yeah, they will, and they will and it's like and they're almost like falling a playbook and there's a portfolio. And I do think in the long run they won't laugh. They won't laugh. That's

what the vcs though. I mean, at the end of the day, right, like anyone who's funding you guys has is looking at what is the DNA and the personality of the founders, what the smart braces. I think a lot of them are also just looking at what's the LTV and what are the margins and how much is going to cost to acquire people. I can't tell you how many vcs were like not down for a way because they're like, the purchase frequency is low. Yeah, I mean, well,

you've got people buying for carry ons. On one hand, we have people buying for carns. But also it's like, Okay, who cares what the purchase frequency is low? Because we're building a bigger brand, that's right, which will have more products and services like stay tuned. Yeah exactly where such a short term way of thinking. Yeah, it's interesting. Should all right now this time our game general? What would

you kill meetings? Yeah? I know, I read that you were doing a lot of walking meetings even that and that Now, I just I think there's some things that are very necessary that like you need to see in person. I would say, like nine meetings are unnecessary. We're big slack users. I think like it also helps people be more concise and give more context and be really thorough. Also, how come when people schedule a thirty minute meeting. They

think it has to be the full thirty minute. Sometimes it's over in ten minutes and they're like, okay, what else should we talk about? Like, so, what are you buying? Oh? God, what am I not buying? Let me tell you about this product Slip. They make eyemass and silk pillowcases, which is like the sounds really bougie but good for the hair. It is amazing and it's it's kind of embarrassing because it's soft. Yeah, it's soft. It's just slip like s l I P. Yeah. I love them. So they like

cool your eyes down and deep huff and stuff. They're just nice, like they don't they're not too tight. So yeah, that's that. You get off to travel with them. Yeah, they're in my bag right now. I literally travel with a silk pillow case. And when I get to a hotel, I also read this really disgusting article and like on like mites and things like that. So anyway, I am

in pillowcase. It's the little luxuries you guys. But I found out about them because we sell them at the Away store and we're always sold out and people are always asking about them and I was like, wait, what is this? What is this lip? You know where I'm going after this? What would you do yourself not away? Like if do you ever say if I was away from away, if you were out of office? Yeah? Am I doing so well? This is a way related. But I take a lot of pride in the fact that

we don't use like agencies. We do everything internally, and I want to like fully extend that, like retally integrate that if you will. But I mean I wish you

could make our own furniture and pictures for stores. I think there's just so many inefficiencies and like the creative stuff, and um, I think one of the big things was that we didn't work with an agency in the beginning to do our branding, and I saw how well that worked out for us because it's like part of our d n A. So I want to do that with everything now. Um so like all like industrial design, like

create your own lamps, create your own front everything. I actually see that for you guys be amazing, like a just a massive I mean we uh, we just signed a lease on a big new office and like we're gonna have like our own photo studio and um, maybe our own podcast room. Everybody's everybody's doing it. Everyone's doing it. We have a very d i y spirit. Well don't

ever lose it. So, as a woman on a mission, last question, two years into a super successful DTC brand, what is your advice, not just to entrepreneurs, but particularly to women. I think you have to really want to do it. And I know that sounds so trite. I'm just I'm seeing so many because we get a lot of like uh like request for advice meetings and people are starting their own thing or investors were sending companies

our way just to get our thoughts on it. And it is so evident and so much of what I see that like people are doing this because they looked at like they did some competitive analysis and and they saw a space in the market and they don't give a shit about it. Like, if we didn't really love this, it would not be good. What's one brand that you're so hot on other than like slip like from a brand from a brand standpoint where you're like, fuck, they're cool.

We can I tell you this is like the lamest answer because it's so obvious, but I can't tell you how much like Nike continues to impress me. And this is why because if you like, you have a Louis Baton over there and like splurt on it, you're like, love this bag. Use all the time. If you walked on the subway and every single person had that bag, you'd be like, oh fuck, Like that's it's like not as special. Nike is one of those brands that like

has withstood the test of time. If every single person in this building had Nikes, you wouldn't think they were less cool. You'd be like, oh, cool, everyone has Nikes. And I think, um, they can partner with like really high fashion, like kind of more mass and and they're still cool. I think it's like it is so hard to be like a mass market, so hard but cool brand, and I think they've done. I mean, I think that's what that's what I want for a way. Hopefully you're

on your way. Yeah, that's that's because we we really But I think it's like, um, it's easy to be cool when when you're like luxury and expensive and exclusive. It's like how do you how do you stay cool when everyone has it? Yeah, that's right that we're going to drop the MinC kind of people get in touch with you, or listen to you or outside of our podcast, or chat with you. Gen Rubio. If you don't have it, away back, get one. I need one. Um. Thank you

so much for being here bad guys. Thank big thanks to Jen Rubio. She came here in between her like crazy travel. Yeah, she's all for a European tour. She's already done fifty flights, she said, and already this year. But I loved her inset on the way out how do you find calm in the crazy? And she does not go on WiFi while in flight. I actually think it's actually one of the smartest things to do. I'm always like a crazy person, like typing and like I

am NG people, I am ing. It's like when you used to have a beeper and there was no pay phone. Big thanks to our friends and family at Panoply. Laura Morris are badass female Padua and we can't not thank Andy Bowers and Matt Turk all of our friends and family out there working it in Atlantia. Full disclosure. Our opinions are our own.