Sleep Does a Body (and Brand) Good

special guests. We always have special guests, but this one. She's bright, she's shiny, She's super smart and articulate and thoughtful, and I feel like I could actually talk to her for days and still not kind of scratch the surface of what's going on in her mind. Kellie Schweitzer, So, Kelli Schwitzer is the chief Content Officer of Thrive Global, And originally we brought Kellie on the show today to

interview her, but I felt like it was actually a therapy. So, I mean, you really did look like you were going through therapy. You were looking at her like preach to me and to me about what I need to do. We're gonna have Callie come back on and maybe do Callie's corner. She might have the first franchise Atlantia, but she's one of the most accomplished people I know, and she hustles her behind hustles and I think you know, we've spent the last thirteen episodes talking about how we

change the ad industry, the ad model marketing differently. Um, but we're gonna take episode fourteen and make a sharp write and talk about how we change behavior as an industry, an industry and focused on well being. And so with that, we're going to talk to Callie Schweitzer, chief content officer Thrive Global. We'll be right back today we have a very special guest, Callie Schweitzer. She's the chief content officer of Thrive Globeall. So, Callie, welcome to the show. You're

in Atlantia. Thanks for having me. Guys, thanks for coming. I'm such a fan. Are you honored to be here? What's your favorite episode? Obviously the Linda Boff episode number thirteen, mostly because I was really happy I wasn't number thirteen, because I feel like she's lucky Linda's and I can be fourteen eight Mile bof exactly right. So call Yes, you are the chief content officer of Thrive Global, and

about what is Yeah. So, Thrive is Arianna Huffington's new health and well being company really focused on changing the way we work and live. Um. So I met Ariana actually a year ago this week, and I reread Thrive before I was meeting with her, and on page twenty three she says, you know, the workplace isn't working, and it's going to be women who change the way we work and live and men who thank us for it. And I was just like, I'm in, I'm doing it.

And so I when I'm out with Arianna, I heard her vision for this company, which was really based on her book Thrive, followed by her book Sleep Revolution, and I just thought, this is a global movement that I want to be a part of. You know, the workplace really isn't working for anyone. I mean you look around at the number of people who are just completely burnt out. Um, it's an absolute epidemic. And there are so many issues that are not being dealt with and not being talked about.

And so I saw this as an amazing opportunity to go get involved in a conversation that I'm really passionate about. And so we launched the company on November. Oh my gosh, happy Birthday. We had a launch party. I would have loved to have sound happy, but we'll have a special birthday party this year for you and wonderful perfect. And so we're really focused on on two things. One is

corporate well being and two is our consumer platform. So corporate well being means going into companies, working with corporations ranging from Accenture to JP Morgan to Snap to uber uh to a Safari Calm, talking to their workforces, training them and these pillars of well being UM. And the other part is the consumer platform, which is really a public facing media platform that we're going to get both

of you to write for. You have to answer our Thrive questionnaire and it's all about so I don't well, We're going to change that. We're going to change that. But it's the overarching mission of the company is to end the stress and burnout epidemic and to really offer people sustainable solutions. And it's so interesting because what Ariana found on her Thrive book tour was that everyone wanted to talk about sleep and this idea that we are

running ourselves into the ground. And she has this amazing line, people are sick and tired of being sick and tired, and you think about it, it's so true. I mean that feeling that you have at the end of the day. You know, if you're just completely and utterly exhausted, you can't show up in every part of your life the way that you want to, whether it's for your family, whether it's for your friends, and so it really does matter,

and its spills into everything that you're doing. And so giving people these sustainable solutions, you know, we think of ourselves as a behavior change platform. That is what we focused on, helping people go from knowing what to do to actually doing it. So if you're going to say, you know, I can't sleep, I'm going to turn to you and be like, no, no, you can. We're going to fix that. Um And and it's so important that we take content and make it into something that is actionable.

How do you build content that actually leads people down that road that they can actually because I think a lot of people talk about wellness, right, A lot of people talk about taking time out, But I mean, looking around the table at three women who work their butts off, right, it doesn't. I can't actually understand that in my daily life, Like I have a really really hard time right about it, and I'll say, wow, that's so awesome and yeah, hey, and I like it. And how do you build content

that really impacts? Yeah, So it's a great question because I think, you know, one of the challenges in the content world that large is this idea that everything is content. Now,

anything that competes for your attention is content totally. And you know, when people say, you know, who are your competitors, I'm anything that wants your attention is our competitor because ultimately, you know, whether it's a push notification from Instagram or a dating app or Snapchat or you know, the weather news, you know, any of these things are all competing for time,

which is a finite resource. And so I think that, I mean, one of the key things for us is really building that brand has to start from scratch and it has to have major value add in people's lives. And so it really is the going from knowing what to do to actually how to do it, and that starts with micro steps. So our whole behavior change platform is built around this idea of microsopt only eight seconds of attention. I think micro is so give our give

our listeners, like giving your top three micro changes. So here's one. I mean, first of all, I don't sleep with my phone in my bedroom and that has made the biggest difference. So Arian and I will tell you it is life changing. Where do you put your phone?

I leave it in my kitchen. Leave it in my kitchen, and it completely changes your day because when the first thing you do when you make up is not look at your phone and see the number of emails and text or bad push notifications about news or this or that, you know, it completely changes how you start your day. And so okay, you're gonna say, Okay, I can't do that, I have kids, I have this. What would I use from my alarm clock? Okay, we'll buy you a physical one. Um.

But but the reality is, try it one night. See how you do. Can you do it? Can you spend thirty minutes before bed without your phone? You know, spend time away unplugging, watch TV without your phone. I mean, we have so become consumed by this idea that we must always be productive, and it's actually leading us to be less less productive. Al right, So put the phone down number one? What are your next two? You know, I will tell you I've become a standing desk person.

I never would have thought that, but I will tell you that standing during the day as Are you kidding me? I look at you and I see a standing debt you so much damn energy? Are you kidding me? You know? I used to think, how could I ever stand all day? Those people must be crazy? And then I started doing it. Now when I sit, I'm like physically uncomfortable. I mean, I've had a standing desk for two weeks. Asked me

how many times I stood? None? Say, maybe you just move your desk to you move your laptop to the couch, right, that's the move. No, I just hit the same and then my iPhone says, get up, and I love it anyway, Okay, give us one more. Um yeah, I don't even know if that counts as micro That might pinko too bold, But I think even making sure you move throughout the day is so key, um to how you feel. It's

just like getting physical, it's actually just mentally how you feel. Totally. Um. I'm also very obsessed with the idea of really radicalizing your notifications and sort of everything that you do around your phone I've done. So we work with this guy Tristan Harris, who's a former Google design ethicist who recently gave a TED talk about how you know technology is hijacking humanity and this idea of how you know, we need technology that aligns with humanity and with people's interests

instead of sort of sucking us in. It needs to give us value back. And you know, one of the things that he has really uh taught us all a lot about it at Thrive Global is this idea of changing up you know, your home screen, moving apps around, changing what notifications you have. I only have utility apps on my home screen. Um, so you know the apps that actually give you. There's a company called Moment that

shows you the happiness level. It tracks your usage of of apps, but then it shows you happiness level compared to usage and utility apps. You know, things like Google Calendar, Ways, you know Uber things like that that get you something in return are actually the apps people are always the happiest with. Whereas social media. You know, as I said, the more time you spend, the worst you feel. So who else is doing content in the wellness space really well,

you know, this is a great question. I would actually say that one of the most important things that I think we can do in the well being space is really changed this idea that it is soft and feminine um to something that it is about performance and well being. And that is really I mean, all of thrives about

this idea that well being is directly impacting performance. So you know, how well you sleep, how well you feed yourself, how well you know, how well you do any of these things are directly impacting the person you are, both at work and at home. And so I would say, like, I think actually one of I mean, I think under Armer is doing fantastic things and and has in recent years. And I would say that one of the best things that I think that they did was changed the conversation

around fitness and exercise to strength and movement. And that's one of the things that we're all about it at Thrive Global as this idea of movement into the conversation

about standing desk. You know, whether it is just that you're you know, going out and walking around the block, or that you're standing up for five minutes, mean, whatever it is, we have to change the conversation around specifically I think toward women, this idea of fitness and exercise being thin and and you know that conversation has really expanded over the last few years, thankfully, But I so believe in this idea that that moving branding and messaging

from an advertising perspective toward that broader conversation of what it means to be strong and what it means to move is such a critical change and I think Undermember has done a great job with that. How does that

impact the brand partners that your work? Right, So, when a brand comes in and talks in the vein of what you would expect or perhaps um stereotypical and what you're just alluding to on the feminists or soft angle, are you educating and informing or you find that brands are actually coming getting the message and like I need to lean into this. Yes, So it's a great question. I mean, I would say that a lot of brands

are really getting it. Um. You know, we're working with Quaker Oats around you know, we've had a year long partnership with them, uh since number thirty when we launched, and a big push of theirs is around nutrition and this idea of fuel, And um, I heard this great anecdote in a recent piece. I was reading about this idea of you know, if you knew that you could put gas into a car and that it would just

you know, make it move, you do one thing. But if you knew that you could put you know, ultra gas into a car and you knew go two times as fast, you would obviously gas. And we don't apply those same standards to ourselves when it comes to things like nutrition or sleep or something. Is this something and all of the research because I'm sure you have um an enormous volume of it that is perceived as a

female first issue. And knowing that that is the perception of market, how do you grow an audience, especially one that touches both male and female, and how are you kind of parlaying them to educate people. Yeah, so it's a great question because I would say, you know, absolutely the sort of wellness of the past was very much seen as a female topic. It was seeming soft and

fluffy and like something that was an extracurricular activity. And I would say that the conversation is really changing, and I think, you know, I credit Ariana immensely with you know, what she has opened up around well being and around sleep and abound performance and just this idea that Alexa

to your point, you know, permission granted. That's that's one of my favorite things that bethcom stuck in Linda, that you know, this idea of permission granted to be your best self in whatever aspect of your life at any time you need to be. And I think that one of the things that's so key is actually introducing new

role models. And so that's where Laura to your point, you know, we bring in I mean, on launch day we had a piece from Jeff Basos on why he's getting eight hours of sleep is good for Amazon shareholders, and you know we bring in Yeah, and chit Berg, the CEO of Levi, is talking about, you know, just walking through the halls of the office, um, you know, wearing his workout clothes to make sure people see him going to work out, or putting his phone away when

he gets home at night. And I think that it's so important to have both male and female voices representing this sort of new generation of new role models. It's normal to expect young people to go through the night. It's normal to expect them to show up on the weekends. They're suggesting is that that approach is a very old school in nature, and that as an industry we stand

to lose if that's what we continue to drive. And I would say that from a lot of the millennials Alex and I talked to in this industry in particular, UM, it seems to be one that is they are driving that cultural change. You are seeing people doing yoga and the stand up desks and all this sort of thing. What do you see, um, from your vantage point in that chain, um, particularly in our world. Well, it's a great question. I mean, trust me, thriving doesn't mean chilling

out under a mango tree and not working hard. It means working hard when it requires it. But it doesn't mean being on seven, you know, in in this kind of a culture that doesn't require it. And it also just means being more mindful around how you work with other people, because I think you know that sort of of one of the sort of other old adages of the past is this idea of like off my list on yours, which you know we all know that feeling. It's like that person who's emailing at three in the

morning where it's like you don't need to respond. Of course, I don't expect you to respond at three in the morning, but I'm just getting it off my plate and dumping it into yours. Like Wow, that feels really collegial, doesn't it. Um? But I think that actually, what I think the future of work really looks like is a much more collaborative

process around information sharing and information gathering. Because I believe that so much of what you're talking about, this idea of to stay ahead of the curve is the idea that you are the only person who can ever see the latest digit a article or whoever find that latest media post piece or whatever it is. But you know, I mean, whether it's a group slack room or you're

sharing the latest links. Like, I so believe that experimentation, growth, innovation, and learning in this industry has to come through collective hive mind information sharing and discussion. So you can we like take a We're gonna take a left turn. Because so before you came to give me a fast one. Um, before you came to Thrive Global, you were at Timing. You created a whole new editorial platform for women called Motto. You have built audience from nothing. How do you build

audience from nothing. You start by super serving a passionate audience. So you find a need and then you fill that hole, and those people become your ambassadors, and they become your community, and they become sort of the largest megaphone that you can have, because people who feel passionately about something are going to be driving so much of your continued success. And so I think you start in the beginning from super serving and I believe that, you know, the future

is niche in a lot of ways. I mean, Thrive Global is a very broad you know, we are going very deep on what is a broad topic, but we believe that you have to super serve that one passion and then the rest will sort of trickle out from there because you do get into so many different topics that you may never have thought you'd be covering. So what you just said, because we talked about this so much in terms of um finding that passion, we're like, sign us up. We believe in, you know, the idea

of super serving an audience. A lot of people in the traditional media space, Kelly might turn you and say you're pigeonholing yourself. You're limiting your ability to build audience in this industry is driven based on what do you say to them? Oh man, you know, I would say, I feel the days of spray and prey are are so over. I mean, I firmly believe that the livering value add you know, as we discussed earlier, attention time

is so limited nowadays. I mean I think about and becoming absolutely and I think about things that I see that I call micro hates, which is like, you know, a clickbait article that then you just think, oh, like, I love micro I'm about to unfollow that brand, you know, like they do that one more time, And I will tell you that I think people's patients has become so low. If you do it, once you're gone, you're out of the feed, and then by the time people opt out

of you, you have a real problem. And so I would say, you know, I believe that you will get more value out of someone who cares so deeply and so genuinely about your topic or your niche or your area than you ever will from you know, gazillions of drive by hitters who don't have any brand recognition for what you stand for. And I think that really matters. I mean, the feed, you know, whatever platform it's on, you know it's flying by these days. I mean you

can barely tell who's who. And I think that having a clear voice and having a clear sense of what you stand for and what you will deliver is so key. If your audience knows, you know, oh, I'm really a thrive Global article or that's a thrive Global instagram like that to me feels so important. And in terms of you know, if you're an advertiser that I believe that the value you will get in return from that group

is far better. So one thing I want to ask you, and we talked about this in the industry a lot, right Our industry is really fueled by creativity, and then you're talking about well being and it seems like this obvious connection. But have you guys seen or have Thrived on any research um or had people talk about how well being creativity or connected. Absolutely, I mean there's a ton of research out there directly connecting those two things.

If you want to be your most creative, you want your brain firing on all cylinders, If you want to be able to ignite that creative spark within you, it absolutely has to be at your best. You know, you have to be functioning, uh physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritual, you know, whatever it is for you. It's all about being completely fueled.

So it's just like all of those amazing strategy kids in their twenties and you know, copywriters and art directors and people who are like just cramming in this agency world, both on the media side and on the creative agency side. It just seems to like better put it down, put it down and walk away. Yeah, And I think that's absolutely what it is. It's about creating the space as well for creative thoughts. I mean, you cannot expect people to do their best work sitting at a desk all

day staring at email totally only that. In fact, our best ideas, Laura and I, our best ideas came at night when we were just just jamping, like just just jamming, right, Like I was on the train going home and I was just listening to music and I was just letting my mind wander. Well, it's like having a moments in the shower, right. I mean, it's that idea of once you let your brain and your mind settle, you actually allow thoughts to come through. I have recess and freethink

at work. But I think a lot of think a lot on the agency siet. I think a lot of people try to create that with like ping pong tables and blah blah blah and blah blah blah, but it's as a negative connotation. Oh those kids are over there playing ping pong instead of about freethinking exercises. It's more about looking cool or you know, looking creative, rather than

actually infusing creativity via well being into your culture. The one thing that I've where I say, you know, forget that people say you've gone to niche is like the fact that well being penetrate societies and ways in which

it can actually solve bigger societal issues. I eat in inner city schools, you see a lot of these videos popping up in your feed around kids doing meditation instead of going into detention and what that does for that child in terms of reflecting, taking a time out, relaxing, and then going back into the frame because who knows what all of the environmental factors are that solicited ex behavior. So do you see, you know, thrive going into those places.

So so two key notes on this one the lead story of our right readefinding masculinity package was actually about the Mindful Masculinity Institute in Chicago that that's working specifically with Chicago boys sort of on these exact issues around masculinity and what it means growing up in Chicago. And UM. The other thing is we have the Thrive Foundation, and

so the Thrive Foundation does trainings for nonprofits. We've worked with the mayors and the staffs and their staffs UM in Oakland and in Providence, we worked with the Global Citizens staff. But absolutely, and I think that this is such a key part of it is that you know, this message is meaningful to absolutely everyone. It has to be ubiquitous. This kind of knowledge is not something that can be shielded from people. It is information that is power and that really can change lives in such a

meaningful way. So I absolutely I think that, you know, the democratization of this kind of education is absolutely key. I mean, if Lulu Lemon or Nike or someone wanted to do something, partner with Thrive Global, go into an inner city school and start teaching what human performance is really about, right mindfulness. Yeah, it's time, We're gonna do it. Cali Schwitzer, Yeah, you know the rules over here at door number one is killed. What would it be? What

are you killing? So here? I'm killing interstitial ads with countdowns. I believe that Forbes actually would say with THEIRS, I'm just gonna say for yeah. But for some reason, I feel like the box to X out like the X where you need to close the ax like this is actually this you can find it, it's gone, it's invisible, it's global. Actually has a partnership opportunity with the I A B to teach ways to distress the advertising experience. I totally agree with that. Flip it. How can the

advertising world still be structured but more creative? Hello, that's what the I B stands for, is like standards and advertising. But how can you still be creative? I think that's so key. I mean ideally, if you when you're thinking about content, you want and this is my little acronym, it's bad, but you want something that it's I thought it was bad I I e. A. It either informs, inspires, entertains,

or activates. Right, But you don't want to activate in the sense of like agitates, right, you want like that's a different change and different men. Exactly what was that I I E A A Exactly Exactly? That's the bad a um, okay, and then what am I buying? So here's my question about buying. Am I buying for my personal usage? I did think about this? Or am I buying for like I'm bolting it on do whatever? The like?

My hair? Like my hair? My hair? Juster says. I always say, oh, you know, like thanks to so and so for this hair? Is that girl, that's your hair? You bought it? Oh? I love that. I love that. That's great. So I don't know should I buy all of Google. I'm very obsessed with productivity, shortcuts and hacks

within email products. So like, I'm obsessed with this one thing called follow up dot c C which allows you it's like boomerang and things like that, but it and and oh a new one that I'm newly obsessed with, which is called I think it's like show inbox, where basically it hides my inbox from me at all times, and it then I have to click show me my inbox, which then is like an active It keeps track of

how many times I went in. So this morning, when you know I'd gone, I'd opened my inbox twenty times and been visible for two hours, I was like, huh is that like, what did I need to be in my inbox? Although not really like I was editing. I mean I didn't need to really be in my inbox, Like it makes me so much more mindful. And it does allow you to set times where either a it locks you out of your in box when ready, that's

what it's called in box when ready. It does allow you to block yourself from your own inbox, So like a certain time at which I am no longer allowed to use my email, which I'm not going to set that because you know what I know, I know because it changes. But to um, you can also set like if I hit a certain number of times, it blocks me out, so you know. I just I love products like that. I love things that bring your attention to sort of the way in what you're doing, so I

mean make you more mindful. And what am I killing? Oh? Perfect? Oh okay, I have an idea? Um okay. My idea is I believe that we have despite having Google. Um, I think we're missing kind of like still an information architecture or structure of the Internet. It's like remember tv Guide, Like nobody uses tv Guide anymore, and yet like I remember hearing on a podcast that one of the number one things searched on Hulu is Game of Thrones, and yet like people don't know that Game of Thrones isn't

on Hulu because it's on HBO. Like I think we've sort of love everything has become so porous that everything is everything and therefore everything is nothing, and so I feel like we need a little bit more structure around what what and how to find good content and promise of personalization. Right And by the way, I just want to say people are searching for Game of Thrones on Hulu because Hulu search sucks and no one knows actually

what's on Hulu. Hulu words love you, but fix it. Well, Callie, this has been one of the most therapeutic she looksedvived. She take come from the Jersey shore and um, look we we just you can come back anytime. You can come to my office, you can come to my house and the surface to be honest of like talking to

you about out um thrive Global. But I think like what I love to have you come back and talk about is more about like a little bit media future and storyteller and really talk to us about where you think things are going. So you're coming episode Global. I R L Yeah, I love that. That would be great. Love that. So done, done and done so Kelli Schwitzer. Since you clearly know the format of the show, where do people find you? At? C Schwitz on all social media?

I love or you can email me at Callie C A L L I E at Thrive Global dot com. Better be smart. Email the best Monday to come back to every long week. Thank you, hang with you, Thanks, thanks call five. So with that, I mean she's send us a bill for the cope. I don't really know she's gonna send you a bill for the cope. We're definitely gonna have Kelly happen to me. I think she should split it with me. We're definitely gonna do Ally's corners.

But first we have thank you to our wonderful producer who is currently in the studio oming super Calm Camp. He is like unbelievably calm. I think it's because he's anesthetized himself to deal with us. But anyway, uh Andy Bowers, Thanks everybody. So all our friends and family and Panoply and everybody in Atlantia don't stop tweeting at us. We are having so much fun. Thanks everyone, we'll be back in two weeks. Within all new episodes m full disclosure. Our opinions are our own.