I'm off my game today. No, you're not. People are going to have to start making better content. I think we're gonna be talking about this for a long time. When you program for everyone, you program for no one. I think it's that we're purpose driven platform, like we're trying to get to substance. How was that? Are you happy with that? This is marketing therapy right now? It really is? What's up? I'm Laura Currency and I'm Alexa Kristen.
Welcome back to Atlantia. Can you believe we're in August? No? Where does it go? Anyway? We're going. We're going somewhere, somewhere really good. So excited to have Nancy Hill the media sharp slash agency sharp slash, just sharp. But you need to know, you need to know. So. Nancy is the former president and CEO of the four A's, the AD industry trade organization, as well as a former executive at many of the top UM agencies around the country
the world. We're excited to have her because she has this really broad view of what's happening in the industry, from UH female and diversity issues to creativity and the organization. The new organizational structure that agencies need to be thinking about. So I think that if you're going to take someone and all of their experience in a career and be able to kind of pluck, you know, key bits of knowledge,
Nancy Hill is one of those people. Yeah, one podcast, Nancy Hill is one of those people that you want to have with you doing that. Yeah. I think, you know,
we talk a lot about old guard, new garden. I think it's been interesting UM to see Nancy sort of take what she knows and be able to apply those lessons now to sort of the next generation of independent shops and really helping UM to consult in building their model and their staffing structures and their culture quite frankly, to make sure that you know, they're not only able to bring a new business of course, but also retain talent, which as we know has been an ongoing topic on
this show UM and what drives UM the next generation to want to be a part of this industry. And one of the things that I think we've talked about so much is the whole idea of like, don't just butts and seeds, don't just staff, don't just resource, both on the marketing side, right and on the agency side, and what marketers are asking their agencies for look for talent.
I haven't We've talked about that, like um philosophically, right, but I haven't met anyone who's actually helping agencies operationalize that and actually take the dream and actually make it real.
And I think what's interesting is Nancy as a really um strong and very clear perspective on what it takes to do that and some of the kind of what I would say is really simple but balls things that agencies have to do to to start enacting a totally cultural a bigger cultural change and therefore putting out better quality work with that. Nancy Hill up next. Yeah, and we're back in the studio with Nancy Hill. Welcome to
the show, Nancy, Nancy, Happy to be here, ladies. Nancy is the founder of Media Sherpas, which is a consultancy and Nancy is the agency Sherpa. In addition to founding Media sharp Is, Nancy has had an epic career in our industry. Previously um president and CEO of the Four A's, as well as the executive at a number of big agencies including big and small, b B d O, T b W, A, Shide Day, Donor I've worked in Baltimore, St. Louis,
l A, San Francisco, and then New York. Nancy, what sort of been the biggest change you've seen over the course of your career that's been the most notable. I'd say the most notable change for me is that we've moved from a place where we would have a hard time, uh saying we would We would never have a hard time saying no to a client, and now we say
yes to everything. And I think it's really important for agencies, especially young agencies, to learn that N and O form a word, because they just chased the shiny objects too many times and they get themselves into a lot of trouble.
The second thing, and they're kind of related to each other, weirdly enough, is that we used to be an industry that we could we had no trouble finding people to come into the industry, and now the war on talent, which you hear about odd nauseam, I know um, has put us in a position where we as an industry have to really really work hard to get the talent, but even work harder once we get them in our doors to keep them because they have so many other
options and I think if there's anything that I talked to agencies about over and over and over again, it's making sure that you have a culture that both attracts great clients and great people at the same time, because they're equally important. Is there the shiny object syndrome though? Isn't it based a little bit on like the fear of the fee? Right, That's what it's really been predicated on, is like, we're losing retainers, We're losing you know, the big,
the big kind of um agency of record positions. Let's go chase the dollars and everything, And if you think about it, it's becoming a lot more like the way architectural firms work, because if you think about the way they work, it's always on a project basis. It's never on an architectural firm of record. They've never had that, but they've been light years ahead of us. And how to make sure that they're getting paid for that and get getting paid appropriately. I think, you know, we've always
compared ourselves to consultancies and to law firms. I think we have to really take a step back and start to think more along the lines of architecture firms and brand design companies because that's the way they've always been hired. I think some of the young agency is now because they've had to work that way from the beginning, are having a much easier time understanding how to work with clients that way than some of the bigger agencies who
are kind of having a retrofit around the whole thing. Well, it's positioning, right, It's it's about actually having like a real internal compass and having a real positioning for the agency outside of a mission statement. That's not it's not just a mission statement. It's not just a mission statement. But it's also having the courage to say no um.
I remember working with a creative director many years ago who when we were sitting around making a decision about a piece of business that could have changed the agency overnight, one of the things he said is we have to be really careful about what we eat, because a minute on the lips forever on the hips. It's the same thing about So you recently spoke out in l A
at the at Age Small Agency Summit about culture. So obviously these things you've described in terms of some of the challenges like the word know, as well as how we're retaining talent sort of fit into how culture might be an important part of the mix. How are you seeing the change happen in agency culture and sort of what is the thing that some of the bigger companies might not be seeing that the newer agencies have where
they're starting to become a magnet for talent. Well, I think one of the things that we as an industry have done a disservice to young people coming in is that because we all worked our asses off, we all got paid little money, we just assume that they're all going to come in and do their time just like we did. And the unfortunate part for us as an
industry is that they're not willing to do that. And if you talk to young people these days about the way they want to work, they even define themselves in a completely different way than we did when we first came into the business. So we have to be mindful of that because they're the first generation who's not going to bend over backwards to work the way we did. We they want us to adapt to them, not the
other way around. And one of the things that I talked about a lot is that burnout doesn't happen because of hard work. Burnout happens because you think your hard work isn't being recognized and value exactly, and and that's where you get burnout. And you can see it when you talk to young people in the industry. They almost have a dejected look that comes from the top of their head down and it'll just wash over their whole face when you're having a conversation with them, because they're
just tired of not being recognized. Now, you could go into the whole generational thing about whether they were recognized too much growing up or not, but the reality is that they're not like us, and they're not going to work like us, and we have to recognize that. I used to tell an example about a kid that I knew who worked for me in San Francisco, and one day he walked in and quit. He didn't work for
me directly, but he worked for the agency. And I did a little digging and I said, here's this kid who came out of a stellar at program and we stuck him in the corner doing spreadsheets. He's excited about being in advertising. He doesn't want to go sit in a corner and do spreadsheets. We have to be mindful about bringing people in and putting them in the appropriate jobs for not only the skill set that they bring, but the passion that they bring. How do you do that?
How do you balance groundwork with that passion? Well? I think you know, I talked about this a little bit last week in the speech that I gave, and I think we have to institutionalize some knowledge of what people's passions are um and I I think that, Uh, the example that I gave is that when I started in this business and somebody asked me when I was twenty seven or twenty eight years old, what I did, I would say, I'm an account person and an AD agency.
Will you talk to this generation coming into the business now? They might say, I'm an account person and an AD agency, and I have a fashion blog and I'm a DJ on the weekends and photography is my real passion. What we don't ask that, we don't know that. So how are we going to when we have a pitch or some project that we're working on, No, to bring Sally in because she happens to be a passionate photographer. We
don't know that if we don't ask. And I think we have to get better at making sure that we're bringing letting people bring their whole self, whatever that looks like, to the office every single day and not just stick them in the corner to do spreadsheets. We've talked about this a lot. Yeah, there's been a phrase floating around UM that I think all of us are are starting to not our heads on. Is this idea of a culture ad not a culture fit. I many years ago
was calling somebody for a reference. And when I got this person, very well known guy. In fact, it was Bob Jeffrey, who was worldwide um j WT for years. I got him on the phone for this reference and he said, before we even go any further, I just want you to know she is one of those people I want in my lifeboat. And I had my whole list of questions I was going to ask, and I
was like, Okay, I'm gonna stop right there. That is such a perfect way to think about the people that you put on your team, because it doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to fit in. It means that when push comes to shove and you're in an emergency situation, that's somebody you can depend on who's going to be resourceful and is going to add to that team. That has to get you out of whatever it is you're in.
And I love that notion. Is there a role for the marketer the client actually to say, stop staffing my business with resources, start staffing my business with talent, and make sure that they are well that these are people who are not just going home at one am in the morning to their community to Connecticut right and getting up at four basically and hating their life, but that they actually have side projects and side passions that they're
bringing in. Because I'm trying to get to that generation of people anyway, I'm trying to sell to that generation of people anyway, So I need their voice, Like, what's the role of the marketer here, what's the role of the client here. Well, you've seen some of that movement with the marketers pushing for a more diverse workforce from the agents. You saw certainly what Antonio Lucia did with HP and CAN and taking people to CAN to expose them and make sure that he was giving them the
opportunity that they might not otherwise get. So I think you're going to have some enlightened marketers who are going to push on that. Unfortunately, we still live and die by the contracts that we have and filling bodies and seats based on f t s and all of those
other things. And that's the other thing that I like to work with with the agencies that I work with on getting away from those kind of compensation agreements, because all that does is put butts and seats and it doesn't let people bring their whole self to work, because you're ticking off a box, Alex. I love the transition you talk about between resources to talent um, and you know something that's been on my mind a lot lately.
It's just the idea of evaluating people based on the percentage of time that they spend on enough business as opposed to the value of the work that they're bringing to the table. So I'm curious, Nancy. You know you obviously worked at the fouries and a lot of them. Sure, these conversations around models and change and transition were a part of your daily um routine. What about the industry
do you wish would just go away? And what are the things that you think will never learn from I think the thing that I wish would go away is being valued on a list of f t s and some kind of arbitrary rate per hour that's even blended, which is the words that that was the blended rate, blended rate. It just makes no sense. And we we let this happen to ourselves when we got off the commission system and couldn't figure out exactly how to get paid.
I think we have to move back to and I know everybody's going to be rolling their eyes saying, oh, easier said than done to just make that move, But I think we have to have some courage in the way that we price what we do with our clients. I remember so vividly sitting in a meeting with a client and the client asking leek ow how long does it take to come up with an idea? And lead just sat there for a second, just let the beat pause, and said five minutes. The problem is, I don't know
when that five minutes is going to happen. And that gets to your point of the value that a person brings that based is based on thirty five years experience behind them, that has nothing to do with that hour that you're spending at that moment. And I think we have to get better at understanding that and getting away from well, this person spends percent of their time and that person spends thirty percent of the time. How do you cut people up like that? You don't. The thing is,
we don't write because it was all bullshit. It's always been bullshit, right, that's exactly. Are there models, Nancy that you imagine in this sort of utopia of of the agency world, UM, that you think could help address that? Yeah? There are, and I UM. I have worked with several of my clients and I've worked at the four ways
and been very public of about them. I think it starts with separating what we do into thinking about it from a standpoint of idea generation, idea management, and an idea execution, which really have very different weights on them in terms of long term value to a client. And if we start talking to clients about it from that perspective and move away from the day to day that it really doesn't bring long term brand value to them, then we can start talking about the value that the
idea comes in. But you know, the other question you asked me is um one of the things that we'll just never learn is to say no UM. And again, I think part of it is, you know, especially with young agencies, they're small businesses, they're afraid that if they say no, that the clients never going to come back. They're afraid that if they say no to a proposal, that the clients never going to come back. I'll just
tell you one other quick story. I had a client when I was at the four A's who needed to have a conversation with me moderating a conversation with one of their agencies about something that they wanted in the contract that the agency did not. And after that we got off the phone, the client called me separately and said, Nancy, I just want you to know we've had this. We've had that contract in front of twenty six agencies. This
is the only one that pushed back. And that clause that was in that contract was terrible for agencies, and it just I think that we're really doing ourselves a disservice when we don't value what we do enough to be confident about it. I also always took exception going back to even to the commission system, that it put uh the emphasis in the wrong place. It put an emphasis on volume, non quality. We have to get back to a place where we're emphasizing the quality that we're
bringing to the table. And again, I hate to beat the architecture model to death. But when you hire an architectural firm to do your house or your business or you're you're never looking at how much you're paying each employee on an hour by hour base. Yes, that's right, So what does this actually what could this look like? Because when you say courage, I'm like, what does courage
really mean? You know, largely my practice is focused on independence and for independence who may eventually become part of the holding companies, but right now they have the ability to make those decisions themselves and say no to clients um and be willing to take a risk that this
client is not really the right client for them. If that's all the client is focused on, how do they go about designing the their mindset right and their process to evaluate right and wrong a right client versus a wrong client outside of gut, outside of just intellectual right like power and chemistry and gut like, what what are those things that you're helping them design culturally and other things that are prompts for that? Well, I think you
have to ask a lot of questions. And I'm a big believer in and garbage and garbage out and so totally if you're not getting the right answers to the questions that you have about the brief, about the project, about what success looks like, what the budget is. I can't tell you how many times clients walk in and they don't know what the budget is and they ask
you to tell them. That is a huge red flag because that says to me that they really haven't given this the consideration that they really need to in terms of not only what they're willing to spend, but what they're willing to pay you. Um. And so when they get down to the negotiations, the last thing on their mind is how much I have to pay the agency.
It's how much of a I spending in total. I think that there are a lot of questions that you can ask clients, just like you would a potential employee, about what it is that they're bringing to the table, just as much as you're bringing to the table. I agree. So talking about trade organizations, what's their role today and how do they live on in the future. Well, one of the things about trade organization sens is it's kind of like the utilities. You don't really notice that they're
not there until the electricity goes off. Um. And so many people don't understand what trade organizations actually do for the industry. It's it's it's that was really awesome analogy. It's very complicated, and even when I got to the Forays, it took me a good year to understand everything that they did. I there was not a day that went by and went we do that. Really, I didn't know.
And I've been in the industry for over thirty years at that point, and so it doesn't surprise me that people look at it from the outside and say that they're old and they're dusty, and they need to do things to stay relevant. So all of that said, in terms of their like a utility, there are things that they could be doing, I think to reach the young people. The fact of the matter is that they're stretched. They're
stretched on the number of staff they have. They're stretched because of the money that they're bringing in every year. That's a relatively small budget um for it's a non in profit. People probably don't even realize that um and so there's only so much you can do. And I think that and this is also true of any business. I have a phrase that somebody said to me one
time that I've never forgotten, which is Nancy. Anything is possible, everything is not, and when you think about it, it's it's really a good thing to keep in mind because anything is possible, there's no question, but you can't do all of it, and you can't do all of it because you don't have the resources, either financially or people wise. I think that engaging young people was something that I was really focused on. But what happened for me two things UM in my last five years at the Four Ways.
One was the whole discussion on transparency and more personally, the whole discussion about women in the in the industry. It was personal, it was important UM. I was always a champion of diversity and inclusion, but I came I became a very loud and vocal voice on the front of women UM because I felt like somebody had to and I think too many people were too quiet for too long, and then we absolutely as an industry had
our me to moment um. But I think sometimes the trade and trade associations can take a stand on these things that nobody else can because they have political reasons they can't, they have client reasons that they can't. And the one thing that the trade associations can do is be the voice, and they are. I think they're starting to to to do that more. At the IB just had a women Visionaries UM conference that was I was there.
It was impressive, it was exciting and the energy in the room it was probably three they were at capacity or over capacity at three people, and it felt like two people were in the room because the energy was so personal when I love what Randall and team have been doing over the IB is bridging the gap between sort of the traditional players and some of the legacy UM speakers that have been on the circuit and up and really making I think a great effort to find
new and interesting UM talent in the space to to mix up the conversation. Why, Nancy, do you think the trade organizations have struggled to either understand or adapt or engage the next generation. Again, it's really hard to be all things to all people, and when you have limited resources, you have to focus on the big meatya industry issues UM. The Forays in particular did try to tackle getting the younger generation involved UM and it became something that was
just beyond our resources. When I was there, UM, I think that there's a ground swell right now going on in the industry with younger, younger generation. That's basically saying I want to be involved, get me involved. And what I will say to that generation is, okay, you raise your hand. You're about to get called on. Once we get to a place where we're breaking down the old mentality and I will say white male mentality, because that's
what it has been. And that's not a bashing of white males, but that's just the circle we've lived in. Until we get past that, we're never going to create an environment where people feel safe having those conversations. Is there one thing that you look back at your early career self and say, I wish I wish I knew this all. I wish I could tell myself this, I would have taken better care of myself earlier. It's not
just about diet, It's about everything. It's about diet and exercise and family and travel and reading and all of the things that feed my soul and making sure that I had time for that because I just worked my ass off. Um And while I recognize that as an industry that it kind of requires us to, I think that even if I had given myself more balance, I would have been a happier person earlier. I feel really good about where I am now, but it took me
a long time to get here. Now that you're sort of on the periphery, sort of looking and advising the thing that's happening, UM at the core of the industry. Um, are there things that surprise you looking from that vantage point that you didn't realize while you were on the
inside sort of running agencies. Uh, well, I've I've had a lot more honest conversations with clients and the last I'd say probably five to eight years because I'm not courting them, so I I haven't had to have the kinds of dance conversations that you have about I don't want to piss this person off because they might be a client, so I can ask pointed questions. And I think the thing that surprises me is how much agencies still to this day don't realize that clients see right
through them when they either do or say certain things. Um. The fact that agencies will walk in and tell a client that they're very different because of this, this, this, and this, and the client will look at me and say, every agency says the exact same thing. UM. And I think and that's been going on for as long as I can remember, so none of that has changed. You'd like to think it has changed, especially with a new
generation coming in, but clients see straight through that. I think one of the things I try to emphasize with the agencies that I work with now is don't try to bullshir your clients. Be transparent. And when I say that, what I mean by that is let them know exactly what they're going to get. Let your employees know exactly what they're going to get, because guess what, if you think you're hiding something from them, you're not. They're going
to find out. And I think that all of these things bode well for the industry as we start to move through this next generation. And dare I say the next creative revolution that's going to happen, because I think everybody's going to be a lot healthier and happier. But until we get to a place where people stopped playing games,
it's just not going to happen. Do you think that the next creative revolution is somewhat dependent on this new kind of structure that you're talking about in terms of absolutely, absolutely, because I think that we have to put ourselves in the best position possible to do the best work possible. And right now, with the structure that we've had with the contractual arrangements with clients, were not in the best position. I mean, let's just take the percentage of the person's
time each week. Okay, you get of this person. Does that mean they stop working at Does that mean the ideas as big and grand as it could be because they just stopped working? It just makes no sense. That's like expecting I'm going to stop at the appetizer, Like it's not stuff I'm not going to like. Again, that's made up. Like have you ever stopped work even though
you're staffed fIF on someone's business? No? I know. But now you've got people in agencies because they have to making sure that they're managing scope and and chicking off every time that somebody's time sheets are coming in because and they're telling people to stop working because they have to um and because because they're stretched at that cross three or four clients. And it's just impossible to do your best work when you're being told that you only
have a certain amount of time to work on a project. Yeah, it goes back to the five minute rule. That's exactly right. So we're going to slow ourselves down and tell me I think restructure. That's really what it sounds like. I think we have to so, Nancy, some of the things that we're seeing in the market, it sounds like as
much as things change, they stay the same. Are there signals to you of great leaders um, whether leaders of years past or or of the future, that you see consistent in terms of the qualities or skill sets that it requires to go from one creative revolution to the next. I think the thing that is most important for anybody who's in a leadership position in a creative organization is to recognize that your job as a leader in that organization is to create an environment where people can do
their best work. Period. That's your job. I don't care what form that takes, because it's going to be a little bit different for every person in every rnzation. But if you start thinking about the fact that you are a servant leader in service to the work, through the people that you have employed there and to the clients that you bring in, and start making that your focus every single day, then there's no limit to what you're going to be able to produce coming out of that
kind of an environment. I say that on the marketing side as well, and not just on the agency. I actually think on the marketing side, on the client side, it's as important in some cases, if not more important, because we are so dictating how our agencies show up, how they're staffed, what we allow them to come to us about, and not because we shut down ideas all the time. I think that on the marketing side it's um probably even more important that that leaders are are
are kind of that. Well, it's time to hear from the sharper herself what you would kill buy and d I, y you are up? What would you kill? I would kill all the FTE model yes, check, I would buy Facebook stock right now. You would give us down? They will rebound. There was no question in my mind. And do I why I would say a new network of some sort and I don't mean broadcast network, but I think some new network that allows for all of the creative people, not just in the advertising industry, to work
with each other on an easier basis. I love that. I love that actually may come back and we'll talk about that design that one. So, Nancy, if people want to have you consult or sharpen them. Where can they reach you? So my Twitter handle is at an H. Hill. My middle name is Howard. I'm letting that so the initial in the middle is an H. Hill and and my email address, which is the easiest way to find me as Nancy H. At the agency sherpa dot com. Nancy,
Thank you so much. Thank you, Nancy. Did you know Nancy's middle name was Howard by the way, I didn't, But you know, if there's any sharp I want in my life, I want to Nancy Howard Hill. Thank you so much Nancy for dropping in and sharing all of your insight and knowledge with us. And I think I hope the industry will take some of her words um to good use and put them into practice, because I
think we'll be better for it. Thank you. Our producer, Dana Matt Turk, Andy Bowers, all of our friends and family at Panoply at Landia will talk to you in two weeks. Full disclosure. Our opinions are our own.