It Ain't Over, Here Comes the Take Over

got a funny, smart guy coming in, Andrew Essex. He's going to talk to us about the end of advertising and what he's been doing over at Tribeca Enterprises for the last year or two since he's been there. But before we get into that, you had fun at the IB podcast up fronts. Yes, and did we get a lot of good reaction. I think a lot of people were talking about, you know, a lot of podcasts that they want to check out, at Landia being one of them.

So we're very excited. If you have friends that haven't listened to Atlantia, tell them. But I think with this year in the upfront different than especially year. Last year was very very focused on UM content and the inventory right. This year was really focused on measurement and data and UM, there were things you know, folks were saying, like people podcast listeners have said that they would be open to

more podcasts advertising. I love the fact that and I don't know if Panoply would hate me for saying this, but I love the fact that there's actually not a ton of inventory in podcasts. And I also love the fact that hosts are the people UM hosting. They're very well thought full producers. As I look at cam, UM have the ability to agree to do host reads and have certain advertisers on their shows because I at the end of the day, we are doing this because we

love it. We're doing it because ay weren't part of a community. But also we want to build a community right around a genre or a certain topic. And I think that ating more inventory into a podcast could be just clutter. You know, it's interesting. I totally agree with your point as usual, UM, but I but I think, uh, you know, controlling the context might be the wrong way of saying it, but definitely protecting the context of the show,

I think it's important. UM, it's interesting I was dabbling with a couple of top ten podcasts recently and came across one where there were about for seven host reads and then many ad breaks in between the content, which a made the show very, very long, and understanding that the show is is a hot show and high demand, and so there was six minute show, an hour long show.

It was upwards of forty five minutes plus, but I would say a good majority of that went the way of ads, and I just I felt like it was too long, it was too muddied. I was like, I wanted to fast forward through the ads and audio UM, which obviously, as a podcast host and somebody who's in the industry, I was curious to listen to them. But at the same time, I was like, Okay, I just want to get back into the interview. And so I think that there's a danger in saturation and as an industry,

we need to be really careful UM. Understanding that this is a very intimate medium. It's the only thing, UM might be one of the only things I'm paying attention to, and like, I don't want to feel aggravated and annoyed before I even get to the show starting, So like, let's not create the pre role before the pre role, before the pre role. Let's like preserve the content experience

and give people what they came for. I also think like we have the opportunity, and I have to say, I was in meetings before, so I couldn't make it to the whole day, so I only got to the afternoon. So I don't know if people talked about this, but there's a huge opportunity I think in audio, to in streaming audio or on demand audio UM to rethink how

advertising is done. You know, it's been typically kind of taking the radio model and applying it with UM, I think more success because it is something that you download and something that you select right to listen to very specifically. I think there's a huge opportunity to think about advertising and the personality and the talent together in a way that makes more sense. And there's you know, and I don't know how you monetize that, but we can. I

feel very confident that we can. And so, you know, in a world where we're trying to standardize everything, and that's what you know, the i B does is like create these great standards that the industry can kind of march towards and monetize and be successful. Um. Both from an advertiser perspective and a publisher perspective right supply side, demand side, It's still a really niscent form of media at the end of the day, podcasting, and I think that right now is the time to start rethinking it.

And I'm not against standards. I'm all for standards, but let's start. Let's start being really freaking imaginative with creating something and then setting a standard. I think that a lot of brands are looking to figure out how they get into this space. They know now that they probably should get into the space people were talking about, you know, and a couple of years ago, you know, ten percent of major brands said that podcasting was going to be a part of their media mix. Now it's like way

more than that, right. I think people know that they should be in podcasting, I'm not sure they totally understand yet why. And I think that we have to go in and we have to educate people both on the agency side and on the brand side and let them use this as a new playground for creativity UM and

work with hosts and do things like that. So yeah, I think one of the things that UM, I was following on Twitter from at Moss Appeal, who's somebody who follows us at at Landia said some of the themes that she saw it this year's upfront included what she felt was a maturity in terms of, like seeing the

platform growing. I think that's what you're saying, Like we've moved past now the point of finding people to make content, Like there's definitely no shortage of content in the podcasting space, and we're starting to think about now how we create these prescriptive ways to measure and to advertise and all of these sorts of things. But you noticed that there was a push UM for more branded content, a direct appeal for title sponsors UM, and definitely a need for

case study stats. And so, you know, take it or leave it. I think that what we're getting to is it is so ripe the time is now UM and people need to recognize that. But before we destroy a medium with seven pre rolls in a show, what are the limitations? And I gotta be honest, like that doesn't

necessarily just fall on the agency or the advertiser. The show creators and the producers and the publishers also need to be respectful of the audience experience and and figuring out ways to monetize in a way where they're not losing margin. So is it not coming up with five pre rolls to pay your your host or you know, is it coming up with the best two minute with

a brand that owns, you know, a season. There was a lot of conversation about the scription shows and um subscription services, and I think that we're going to see a lot more of that in this space, and I'm all for it. I just want someone to like package up or give me an opportunity where I can pick a bundle because I'm not listening. I love Panoply. I listen to most of Panoply shows. I don't just listen to Panoply shows. I listen to w n i C shows.

I love to listen to NPR shows. I let you right, And I think that many many listeners are like that. They also right now because it's such a nissent industry, they don't even know, not always they do. If they've been listeners for a while, or if they've somehow been in the industry, they're not paying attention typically to the network. And I think it's a time right now where networks actually really interesting point. Yeah, they're not paying attention to

the network. So the opportunity to think about subscription here in a different way as well, uh is right for taking And if a network actually ends up doing that, right they actually strike a deal to do some kind of skinny skinny bundle. I mean that's right for media companies, right, Like who's to say in New York Times or fast Co or any of these thought leader publications couldn't come to the table and actually create that sort of same

offering our service or licensing content to do that. But I agree, yes, but I think that that's going to potentially change people's associations all of a sudden with networks, or at least the awareness factor of networks. And I think that's really interesting. Um So, it was like it does like w M I C become or a gimlet become like the title of music, right, where like you have to subscribe the only place you can get these shows and if you're craving the talent, which let's be honest,

that's what people are rallying around in this industry. It's not like flipping a channel. It's about opting in to listen to a perspective, presumably, Yeah, why has an iTunes done it? Why they're coming? I think so with all the original content and things that they're doing, I think that they that it makes the most sense for them. So you think to move away from being the pipes to the actual No, they'll still be the pipe, but

they'll be the tow on network. Interesting. Uh, panically, you know Full Disclosure, who produces our podcast, had a great presentation on their megaphone media platform UM, which is really the first one in the industry that truly does as much tracking and measurement. I think that is possible. They're really looking at demographics. They also put in place the whole UM New marketplace, so the Megaphone marketplace where people can buy audiences UM and that's the first time that's

been done. And then they have a partnership with Nielsen also the first time that's been done. Also, the first time that's been done. One thing I wish folks would have been talking about is okay, awesome, Then how do I start looking at that data and start applying those audiences and started applying some of the insights on subscription and what they're listening to outside of podcasting, outside of audio. I actually, for me, I am a big believer that

podcasting is a gateway to a more psychographic view. And Save America is done with some of their I r L events, you know what I mean. It's it's ways to maximize go to where the listeners are, figuring out how you produce events around particular points in your show when you're seeing a high activation point or where you're seeing a low drop off and pivoting and figuring out

how to backfill that content. So yeah, I think data is gonna be As a host, I'm super interested to see and get access to, you know, what people are thinking about, how they're engaging with the product, and ultimately where they are who they are. I mean, we know, you know who some of them are small batch in in our social following, but you know, outside of that, I think there's much to be learned. And I would also say, like I think there were a lot of

you know, advertisers in the audience. I just I really like we've talked to some advertisers on this show, and we like so appreciate everyone that supports us. And I think that the advertisers on the show of written in some cases a lot of work that we can read and that is personal to us, and I kind of understand the brand, but I would say push that even further,

work with your talent more. Um So I think that that's something that the you know, I'd love that to see them talk about Diabe and the podcast upfront more next year about the creativity side of this. So with that, Andrew Essex and the end of advertising, don't don't do. We'll be right back. So we're back in the studio with the one and all name. We've like pod stalk to you. Andrew Essex. Welcome. So Andrew is the CEO of Tribeca Enterprises and a former admin. Do you consider

yourself a former admin or just ad man? I think you are always an ad man once you've been an adman. Yeah, it goes deep, it goes deep. You've got those jazz hands. They don't come off for that just for the ad industry. So let's talk about your history because one thing that I think is really interesting and put some of the things that you've done recently into context, is you started

as a journalist. Right started your career as a journalist where at the New York Cooperator, where you may have read my piece on what to do when your dormant is sleeping on the job. It was shortlisted for a Pulitzer. That's not true, but actually that's where it worked. It was a shitty little trade publication and from there I somehow got a job at The New Yorker. That was like the beginning of the end, the end of Dormant,

the end of Dormant. That's yeah, totally. So I want to get to your book, which is the end of advertising and not the end of Dorman. But that's going to be the sequel. Um. But I want to talk about your career because I think puting the book into context of your career is really important. So you went from journalism into advertising. How did you get into advertising? Well, frankly, David Orga was a friend of mine and we had

just talked about working together in some way. He was the global creative chairman of Publicists, and I was at a magazine that I think was shut down in a poker game, and we just thought, it's gotta be a better way, and that was really it. It was just it was kind of a crazed ambition and timing. Let's just start something. And he had a few other people there were already and we didn't have to reverse engineer anything. We were just built for the future and the timing

was right. And so were you a part of the five of dro Droka five? Were one of the original five. I'd like to say that's true, or it was about five principles, but that's actually a reference to the number that his mother stitched in the clothes because he's the fifth of five children. That's where the I never did you know, Allien very Yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah, it was like the Jackson five, like I just or was it? Marlon? Definitely want to be if I were

you Germaine. Okay, so you started Droka with David Droga and then you were there till recently two thousand and thirteen to be exact, so ten years giver take an incredible ride. When I was there, there were six people, and when I left there fifty people and it's probably

double since I left, which is telling signs and Global Global. Yeah. Yeah, it was just an amazing run and incredible time in the business for a variety of obvious reasons, but people who were committed to just making work that didn't suck, which was a fun thing to be associated with. Now, did you start working on the book end of advertising before you left Droca? Afterwards? After so the agency sold

William Morris, which has been well documented. And I left after two years and was on what Amanda Robertson would call gardening leave and had not thing to do. I know, I can't imagine Andrew Robson gardening by the way, it's an englishism, britishism. So I learned how to make composts and shuffered my kids to camp and thought, you know, I should probably write something, And wanted to write a story about the dual origin of heroin Naspirin, which is

a story I'm obsessed with. But yeah, I couldn't sell that as a full on book. It's just really just the cocktail party anecdote. And the editor at a publishing house said, why don't you write about advertising? What's up

with this ad blocking stuff? And I said, oh, all right, wow, So what was the impetus of deciding to go on gardening leave, Like, did you get to a place where you had grown into where you want to see what makes somebody who is started something, to where it's at the point that you can step away middle age, honestly, So I was there for a decade, give or take, and I was just tired, so burnt out, it's time

to walk away. The circumstances were right, and I think if you get old, you start thinking of your life in chapters like this, this is the only thing I'm ever going to do. And you mentioned publishing, So I've been publishing. I wasted my teens in t when he's trying to play music. So from rock God to magazine dude to add guy, and then you start thinking, do I have time for any more chapters? Madonna could do it, other people can do it. You can reinvent yourself, right.

I think she's done now now I'm kidding. So then Tribeca, Tribeca came along. Yeah, And what did that look like when the opportunity came across your desk? Amazing? I mean, it's not every day you find yourself sitting in a room with Robert in your own Jane Rosenthal and talking about ways to improve what they did, which was incredible, And it was also very familiar working with amazing creative people, working with brands, working with experiences, which are increasingly important

to me, and I just felt very familiar. People always said how do you go from magazines to advertising? But same kind of vibe. Incredibly creative people in saying deadlines, the search for relevance and audience. So I just see these all at the intersection of media, marketing, entertainment and technology. Yeah, totally. I have a question because I was thinking about this earlier. Do you guys at Tribeca Enterprises do you look at

a specific other brand or entity as a competitor? Uh? Ish, there are a lot of different players, but I don't think anyone does exactly what Tribeca Enterprises does. Can you explain because some people thought dolf I know, you know the vast majority special on the film festival and all the things that culture points us too and saying like this is a part of what you do, but can you kind of explain the breath of it? Okay, and I'm trying not to be boring here, but it's a

little complicated. So that you mentioned the film festival, that's the core, but even the phrase film festival increasingly out of tune to a lot of people's ears. What's film? It's a great point. The festival is really more about the live element and an event that becomes more eventful. So film is always core, but we do r are gaming, talks, happenings, And the fact of the matter is that this is

underwritten by brands. So we have to figure out a way to help brands rethink their relationship to a live event in a world in which sponsorship is just about the sexiest traditional advertising. So how do you take a brand and God help me natively integrated into an experience. That's part of the challenge. So Trepic Enterprises helps brands think about live experiences in a relevant way, and we also use our relationship with artists to make content with

brands that doesn't feel like advertising. So our product is experience, access, and content all under one roof, and it's really hard to find anything that's like that. You can go directly to artists or talent agencies for access, you can go to other live events for experiences, and you can go to other players for content, but to get all three and one under one roof is pretty tough. Now you have a disruption, like is it a studio? Is it a lab? Everybody's got a lab. You gotta have that.

You must have a lab that's really just a place for more to be two be conversation to put people on stage cmos next to filmmakers or showrunners. Okay, because I was thinking about this and I was like, you know, really, Tribeca was, you know, the future of storytelling Fast. If I would see if a friendly competitor, I would see Fast as being your competitor of course, right, because they're

also pushing what's the future of storytelling? Which you guys were doing starting back in two I have to think about the festivals was a response to No. Eleven and then those years, those seventeen years have been the most tumultuous in the history of media. So Tribeca was conceived before Netflix, let alone Twitter. Yeah, and now the question is what's the role of the mobile device at a film festival? How do you connect with the second screen to the first screen? Is the first screen now the

second screen? How do you create experiences that involves storytelling? So there was a time when you might want to go see the next Moonlight, but now you can see it on Netflix or iTunes. What's going to get you out of the house? And that's a real interesting existential question. So experience has become key. How do you get people to experience something simultaneously. That's a really fun thing to try to crack. Who do you think is doing that

well outside of Tribeca. I think Comic Con is interesting. When a Game of Thrones premieres a show at Barkley's Arena, that's fascinating. So you talk about a football stadium and all these people on their feet screaming. How do you connect that to storytelling? And technology now enables that and

I think that's the future of the live event. We agree like how to present Mike dropt like we talk about it all the time because there otherwise there's no reason to leave the house if you can get everything you want with one click of the button. Except community. I mean, I was right, I mean the human touch.

And Laura and I have been talking about this a lot lately, which is we're actually more into analog experience, is right, It's the return of analog by the way, that is I'm holding up the book right now, like

I couldn't agree more. I want to just draw a parallel because something that you just said a little while ago is really interesting to me, and that you know why people love to see executives in the ad industry or why executives in the ad industry love to sit on stage next to filmmakers or Hollywood types, and because at the end of the day, we're going down this parallel road where we're in the entertainment business in some way,

shape or form. We have to tell stories. We have to make people fall in love with our brands, we have to make them feel emotion and illicit reaction. To some degree, I do something right. But presumably technology and community are bringing these things closer together. And now you're seeing people like William Morris take at stake in Droga. You're starting to see CIA become a partner at the table in the mix of agencies, not because you want somebody to do an endorsement deal, because the way in

which they're thinking about production and storylines. You're seeing new rooms like T Brand and your friend Meredith's group over the New York Times have a table in the publishing world but also a foot in the door and production. Why do you think this is happening where worlds that were completely separate and had nothing to do with one another are now coming to this place where they're actually one and the same. That's a very big question. Robert

kinsel I was mentioning. The chief business officer YouTube has a new book called Steampunks, and he talks about how YouTube essentially got rid of the gatekeepers and democratized content. So we were told for years and years what worked by five or six white guys, and now a quilting person in Kentucky can generate a massive audience. So I think this fragmentation has produced a kind of new authenticity where anything that's good finds an audience and anything goes.

There are downsides of this too, but I'm trying to avoid all the cliches that you know better than anyone, but all the old rules are completely broken. Yeah, totally. So when you were writing this book, where did you intend to start and did that differ from where you ended completely? Because just to say it again, I sincerely was obsessed with this origin story. I like unintended consequences,

how do things happen? And there's an section of the book that I'm very proud of which was based on some research about the origin of two of the most bizarre products that are actually brother and brother siblings. In bear. The German pharmaceutical company launched this thing called aspirin, but the same three dudes, all in their thirties, invented heroin. It was a real product, This is not bullshit, and

it was on the shelves for by eight years. And I just thought, that's an amazing story because one of them is benign and one of them is evil, but they were both launched as medicine to make you feel better. So it made me think, what is authentic? What's artifice? It seemed like a fantastic metaphor for the entire industry, and that's what I started to do, and then I sort of built the rest of the book around that. I think that, uh, the End of Advertising probably got

a lot of people kind of riled up. Did you have You said you got death threats? Yeah, I was just one or two, you know, some bomb in my mailbox. Now I think, look, the real title is the End of Bad Advertising, rovertising. It's just less clickable, right, you have to have a little hyperbole. You asked me if I'm still an admin. So that's the cell side, but we all know that that, um, the paradigm is shifting.

So at Tribeca right now, what are the things that you're doing with brands that you're really excited about that you can tell us about or you can break it here. Maybe you're doing something. We just did a fantastic project for Heineken, which is essentially a film about plus Pool, which is that water filtering. So this is a brand that's increasingly allergic to interruption. They want to talk about cool st they're doing when they don't want the beer featured.

They want the story told presented by the beer. So really, at a high level we're doing is trying to bring bands back to ge theater, which is again we we we We did a great initiative with a T and T called Untold Stories. They wanted to see more diversity in storytelling, found a hundred scripts by people of color and narrowed it down to ten. Ten people pitched, they picked a winner, gave the winner a million dollars to make a film that will premiere at Rebeca and then

be broadcast on direct TV. So they got a fly will effect. I think that's very cool just working with IBM to crowdsource creativity with Watson, anytime that we can invert the traditional sponsorship model and help brands make content, we went it was it fair to say you're an agency that also has a distribution pipe. Well, you know what's funny is that my dear friend Meredith and my dear friend Justin have used the word You begin with the S words your studio, and you don't necessarily want

to use the A words. So we have a studio that helps brands make authentic content. Agency implies advertising. So our code is we do nine seconds to ninety minutes, but never thirty seconds like that. Is that your tagline? It's on my tattooed on my left I'm glad I

don't see it. So, but presumably you're able to own them the distribution of that content you're creating, or at least provide a platform, which is what Sebastian Tomas has told us post Meredith Leving's interview here in a big article that he um was featured in talking about at the end of the day, like all signs for T Brand presumably point to becoming an independent shop. I think

Meredith is brilliant. I think T Brand is brilliant because they have audience, they have editorial pedigree, and now they can leverage that by telling stories for brands that are in keeping with the tradition. At the times we are not a media company. We are an event, so we have a platform where we can premiere our content, but we can be unapologetically agnostic about distribution and partner with anyone who has the audience that brand is trying to reach.

So I am everybody's best partner. As they used to say in the Mafia. If you want to reach if you want to reach audience X, we partner with X. If you want to reach audience, Why we partnered with audience? Why you could become a media company. Well, I think the best device I ever got is only do what only you can do. So let me give an example. At the Trebeka Film Festival, we closed with The Godfather

one and two at Radio City. Now you could arguely see that on Netflix or at Film Forum, which you could not see anywhere else, was the entire cast on stage, De Niro, Puccino, Francis Ford, Coppola, Duval, James Cohn, all there, Diane Keaton and then to take that live conversation and stream it on Facebook Live was a game changer because from a hundred and fifty thousand attendees to four point five million viewer US in the streaming aspects. So we

achieve the digital dream. I mean, is there a platform that everybody's talking about Facebook? Everybody talks about Facebook, but is there are a platform that you are most interested in seeing do something different than it's doing direct TV? Now M read it. I think Reddit is going to be interesting. God when redd it pivots to video, the inevitable pivots of the pivoting and other things that are genius.

So I think you're going to see them finally sort of live up to the potential massive audience they've already aggregated. I think those are two very interesting stories. I love what you guys are doing it um kindly, just this idea of building a network around this magnificent theater of the mind medium. Yes, that's exactly how we started. In fact, someone asked us why didn't you start doing videos? Who are like, no, no, no, no no no, this is what

we do and we do it well. There's a lot to be said and doesn't mean we're not going to go into video. But having these types of conversations I think allows people to really dream and think. When we did g podcast theater that was the that was it that it wasn't wasn't about when everyone was doing video or like, no, we're going to go into that. I also haven't been able to keep up with my spray to and so that's really another part of the reason

that you're laughing, But that's actually true. That's what you pivot a video exactly. So as you think, like, you know, the idea that you're talking a lot about community and I r L. We had a fabulous episode UM Early Days in Atlantia, which is like a couple of months ago UM with our buddy David Pots over at Atlas Obscura and kind of tapping into this notion of what you were talking about cults and communities and this idea that analog presents an opportunity for us to engage with

one another. If there's not tech attached to that, what is the reason then for people to step outside of their living rooms. What brands do you think have really embraced that, UM and what are the ones where you're like, why aren't you doing this the opportunity? I think complex complex Con is a great example of that love. She loves smart Echo like those guys hugely underestimate and disrespected, but building taking a media company and then making an

event around a genuinely enthused audience. But I r L is such an important thing. You just said this idea that you take something, you create this concentrated moment of excitement, you basically productize FOMO, and then you use new platforms to achieve scale. Yes, future of advertising, it's achieved scale,

but it's also places where you can have meaningful interaction. Right. So, platforms that I think have an opportunity to think about how they're going to interact off device, off screen right now, stand to actually kill it. I totally agree. Right, what would you tell people who are young in the industry now over Oh, as the old guy who was once young, I know that feeling of staring at the person sitting get out of the way, ground pa, and you have

to understand that this is a young person's industry. And um, we do not put enough people in positions of power, particularly the agency business. But they have to have the confidence, in the in the courage of their convictions. If there were more people who were fluent in vertical video at certain shops, they would be in better position. They'd be fighting back people who understand how to make something with the sound off, because that's what the audience wants just

go push someone out of the chair respectfully. Please respect, don't break a hip. I love it. And on that note, on that note, it's time killed by d I y with andrew Essex. Alright, so let's would you kill? I would kill the extended pa odd that happens when I'm on the treadmill. So I the only time I watch appointment television is six or seven o'clock in the morning, where I walk like a fucking gerbil on a on a wheel, and I watch cable news. And there's one

show that I like, Okay, Morning Joe host. I'm not going to name names, but I guess I like Donald Trump. I just contradicted myself. And they have twenty minutes of uninterrupted really cool stuff. And then there's a horror of endless, completely erroneous as we should have. You meet with Mika and Joe and talk about I just tell me where to show up, and I just want to record like what happens. But they don't probably even know because they're

not watching it. They're in the studio. People are happy, and you probably know they're pretty And there now running a contest where you can actually win an opportunity to sit in the studio, So maybe you can actually then get behind the production camera and refuse to go to commercial times, which makes me think about something else to kill. Sorry,

I know you probably have run off time. But the fact that people can buy and add free experience and others can't because it's too expensive, that's going to create problems. Then what do you think about subscription services? I love subscription services, but I don't like the fact that some people can't and they're penalized ads. So you're creating another kind of divide that Linda bo said the same exact thing.

We totally agree. Yeah, yeah, she went like rogue and listened to the free version and was like, funk this. You mean it's better or it's expensive experience? And I yeah, who would not choose the paid version? But some people can't afford it? Yeah, but what happens when everything starts turning into a subscription service. Everything is turning into a subscrit we have a Darwinian shakeout, like at the news stand? Right, yep, totally correction as a big correction. That's terrifying. All right,

kill two things. You got to whit, didn't we just kill something? Now you just killed two things you're killing all over. What would you buy? I would buy into the glass? So why would you buy them? I just like media businesses built around verticals from the ground up, as opposed to reverse engineering for a char new world they don't understand. But why into the glass because you could say that with a lot of okay, because that

category has some of the least imaginative. Totally respect to Penelope CRUs wonderful, but just actress plus lip glass is not an idea, all right? So what would you do yourself? I would create a body waxing studio that didn't hurt that. We know way too much about Andrew Essex right now. Body waxing, I love it. Into the glass you're a man with many many faces, I think. I think so, andrew Essex, the end of Advertising, CEO of Tribeca Enterprises,

thank you for coming on the show. Where can people reach? Okay at andrew Essex on everything? Twitter is probably the best. Okay you want to give up numbers or your waxing place, Well that's that's competition. Okay, Andrew Essex, this has been such an amazing conversation. Why don't you come back? I need you to come back. Thank you so much for having me, Thank you, thank you. Well, folks, we saw the end of advertising and now we're seeing the end

of Atlantia. Just this episode, don't worry big Thanks to Cameron Drew's our producer as always, our family and friends at Panically, including Matt Turk and Any Bowers. Don't forget to like us, follow us, comment on social Atlantia podcast. Thanks everyone in Atlantia. We'll see you in two weeks. Full disclosure. Our opinions are our own.