Golden Age of Audio (+ Sugar Monsters)

vicial adults? You said we all grows up. We all grows up, we grown camp. That doesn't include you, know. So We've got a great show talking about audio with Andy Bowers, who super meta, super Meta we like, By the way, we need to bring back Mamas. We need to bring back mamas. We do. Laura's referring to a little bit of meta and a little bit of Mama. If you haven't listened to that episode, you will laugh your ass off. And if you don't, something's wrong with you.

You're missing a chip. So anyhow, anyhow, we have Andy Bowers on the show, chief content officer of Panoply, also a good friend. I feel like I always say that, but it's true. We have a lot of good friends

that come in here and talk to us. But someone that we created g podcast Theater with how many years ago, almost four and I was four years ago excuse like industry veteran came up through NPR, was really just waiting for the tech element of audio to take off, to give everybody access to what he's been seeing all along and super interesting to dive into past future present. Yeah, and also brands can get involved in podcasting because we're

really not there yet. We have a lot of friends in the industry who are like, how do I get into this space? Not for their own show, meaning like how do I get my brand into this space and maybe for their own show? I don't know, And we always tell them like, this is the opportunity to be stand out and think about this in a totally different way and get into audio before audio starts getting so saturated,

not just with advertising, but I think with experience. And what we're going to see is that the space actually starts getting pretty saturated in terms of um ex ovariants and content. And one of the things that I'm excited about is people bringing audio I R L right in

real life. So how do people start taking what's the crossover the conversations with a microphone and bringing it into physical location so people can hear conversations that you know normally are reserved for the studio space, but start to actually now add the component of uh, you know, dialogue with those who listen with physical physical, physical space. Yeah, big on that. And there are a lot of and there are a lot of people who are There are

a lot of people who are doing it. But I think that the opportunity for brands to get involved and like figure out where can they be additive to the talent in a physical experience is actually pretty exciting. So Andy Bauer's coming on in a few minutes with Laura and I. But in the meantime, Laura and I have some thoughts what are we talking about today? So today I feel like Burton Ernie today. Um, there are a couple of things that have been getting on my nerves lately.

One when is brand content going to go away? What's interesting about that is some of the reaction we heard from episode seventeen with Vices Ben Deets was to one of the points he made, which I think may have been one of the single most important points um was when he talks about the inspiration for when they created the network. They came up in a world where they believed on the edges that ads were content and content we're ats, and a lot of people reacted to that,

not in positive or negative. Just in thanks for making me think about that differently. And I think to your point we heard earlier in one of our earlier shows with Keith Grossman from Bloomberg, it's like, it's only advertising when it's bad advertising. So there's there's it's only that time one. Yeah, there's something perkling. But I also think like we're hitting this place where everybody now is coming out with some kind of not everybody. I think that

they were the early folks. Now we're kind of in the middle. And then I think we're going to hit like probably a big critical volume of brands coming out with more kind of original content or co produced content, which I'm all for, But I just wonder when do we saturate right people's ears, eyes and hearts with branded content and people just start really loving brands or an experience that they're having with brands and it's no longer branded content, and like is branded content, just content can

get just good content. And I think a lot of this and I'm seeing and enjoying is brands starting to, I guess, fragment their approach to the market. Where you've got products and services and what your heart cell is on one side the coin and on the other side of the coin, it's about your purpose, drive emission. And I think we've heard about that over We've heard about that over seventeen episodes on this show. You know, put your money where your brand promises. And I think what

HP is doing with keep reinventing. I think what we've seen with Glossier do around body Hero love, Body Hero awesome. I think what we've seeing, you know, Airbnb start to you know, delve into around diversity and inclusion. You know, brands are starting to recognize that to fall in love with a brand, it doesn't necessarily need to be tethered to that product or service that it is that you're selling.

It's what are those values, what are those you know, consciousable things that you can put forward into the market. But now it's not good enough to just say it. I think there's this level of accountability where we actually have to invest in you have to invest in. It has to be real. Is this the same conversation we've

had over the seventeen episodes? No, and yes, But for some reason it's been getting on my nerves a lot as people I've been talking to or talking about brand of content, brand and content, brand of content and that they're going out there and they're creating it, and I'm all for it, But to your point, when does it turn into something that's produced brands? That's right, something that's produced um and that sits outside of the brand and kind of it's peripheral or it's kind of core to

the brand. One of the things that's always blown my mind is like, don't some of these brands have more credibility and pertise and some of these categories than content creators do. And with that regard, don't they have more of a right than Hollywood UM to talk about sustainability? For example? Don't they have a right to talk about the future relative to climate change or diversity or for

the housing market? Goldman Sachs like, I mean, that's the thing, right, Like I would actually listen to Goldman Sachs talking about right a financial crisis. I would rather listen to Jamie Diamond of JP Morgan Chase talk about you know what his opinions are on bitcoin, whether I agree with them or not. Right, So anyway, that's my rant. You have one, And I think the thing that's going to be interesting is uh and we're going to get into it with Bowers.

Is the idea of ad supported versus pay to lists and or pay to read or pay to watch. And I think, you know, assume you know it's interesting, you know, to start thinking about, well, what does mass mean anymore? And is it more valuable? And our people going to be more willing to pay for content that has an expertise in an authority as opposed to something that is

just meant to entertain. And I think that's more to maybe generic too, does that you know when you go for that math we say it in the beginning of the show. You know, when you're programming for everyone, you're programming for no one. It's not a new idea. And so do we move from mass and efficiency to context and effectiveness? And I think that at the end of the day is the world I want to live in as a marketer. So me too, preach. We'll be back

with Andy Bowers after the break. So we're back in the studio with a good friend, Andy Bowers, chief content officer of panoply Hi Andy and also known to Alex and I as our podfather father us. I have to say I'm not officially allowed to accept that title. Uh, someone else has claimed to it, but you can be ours.

You've been actually telling us that for like three years because the first time we met you, when we went and talked to you about the message that we did right to the podcast theater, We're like, oh my god, we're meeting with the pod father. Laura and I were like so excited, and then we like just came out in the meeting. We're like, you're the pod father and you're like, you can't say that, but we were like, we're gonna say it anyway. I will not stop you.

So can we tell people about the origin of how the three of us met because it's one of my most favorite partnership development process in my career. Yeah, me too. Um, we had this idea like, why shouldn't we be telling our brand story in an audio space in a fictional format. I was kind of obsessed with what was happening with Serial Less. I mean, the story was amazing, right, the reporting and the journalism and the narrative amazing, all of

that amazing, Yes, hands down, we all know that. But what I was fascinated with was what was happening in human behavior, consumer behavior, people listening to kind of this new narrative on demand audio. And I called Laura and I said, holy shit, this is big and we shouldn't be doing video. We should be explaining our story and bringing people along via an entertainment platform, and I want to do it in audio. And she was like, hold on, I gotta order my number three at Taco Bell. Literally

at midnight. At mid night. I was coming home on the train and Laura was at Taco Bell and she was like, this is right, and we know and we know who to take this to. And then we met you. We were sitting at Lapan lacot Did in right Pancoated

in in Midtown and we walked in. It was this long table, it was noisy, and it was breakfast, and I was sitting next to you and Laura was like on the other side with Turk and we started talking about this g podcast theater and the message and what this could look like and how we wanted a partner to come along side us and not do just branded content right, but to really truly co produce this production like a true original production. This is a twenty. It

was either yes, it was the beginning tail end. And you looked at me and in your very Andy Bower's way, like we were just saying out before we were on Mike, like the coolest hipster and pr guy in the room like, who are you talking about? Yeah, you like the coolest hipster. We'll say it again, Okay, we're not talking about you can stop raising your hand, um, And you looked at me totally calm, and you were like yes, and it was you. You were just like absolute yes. And then

you told me the story about your dad. Yes. Well, you had said that you wanted to recreate G. E. Theater, the TV show from the fifties with Ronald Reagan and turn it into ge Podcast Theater, And I think I just blurted out, oh, that's so cool because my dad used to write for G. E. Theater. He was a screenwriter and TV writer. And uh, I think you liked that. It was like we were like, I liked it, but it was also like you gave you weren't that calm, like I have to say like this, we did get

maybe a little beat of sweat on your head. You were like, yes, yes, and oh, by the way, I have a personal connection to this, and I just knew it was right. We just knew we were just like people done. From my point of view, I go to a lot of pitch meetings all the time, and you know, the majority of them, sometimes the vast majority of them do not amount to anything, and I come away underwhelmed by what people have pitched. And Matt said, you know,

these are my friends from ge. They have this amazing idea for something. I think it has to do with drama, but it's branded. And I'm like, oh god, what is this going to be? And you laid it out for me, and I kept in my mind thinking, Okay, where's the big problem with this because this can't be what I'm thinking, which is this actually sounds really good. It's not only a good idea to do a branded scripted series, but their actual idea is a good idea. I would listen

to this show. You know, you laid out the idea that there's this message that's been around for since World War Two that was received and people have been trying to decode it. I think that was kind of the German the idea you had, um that was like the beginning treatment. Yeah, but it was all there in the beginning treatment that the germ of I mean, that's exactly

what we produced. And so I kept trying to think of ways to disqualify and I couldn't, And so I actually grew excited in a way that I rarely have. I think we got you. We got you excited a

lot during the process. I mean absolutely, It's only been four years since the impetus of this partnership, and I think it's interesting and obviously we want to shift the conversation we're here approaching podcasting has exploded would probably be it underwhelming way of talking about what's happened in the space. Can you believe where it's come from having been in this space since the days of MPR, or have you just been waiting on and saying what's taking some that

kind of that one. Yes, I started podcasting, and I think it was July of two thousand five. I had been actually before that waiting for what the digital audio spoken word medium would be. It was easy to make audio on the internet, but it was not easy to distribute it. And when that distribution method came along, I said, ah, this is what I've been waiting for. So I just I mean, even though it was incredibly cumbersome in those days.

I mean like that was before the smartphone, So you had to download a podcast to your desktop computer and then sink it to your iPod, And it was you know, for me to think that normal people would go through this incredible process to get what you can get from the radio was not realistic. But I saw then just the power of on demand audio. How when you set your own schedule and you listen to what makes you happy or interested or entertained on your schedule rather than

the radio schedule. It was incredibly powerful and addictive, and so I knew that this was going to be the future of the medium. I thought it would happen a lot quicker, especially when the smartphone came along. When the iPhone came in two thousands seven, I thought, oh, finally we're here. And I kept waiting and waiting. In my old colleagues at NPR, We're like, what are you doing podcasting? What is this weird thing? That kind of thought I was crazy, But then they got into it. Well, yes,

now the pool is very full. Yeah, the pool is very full. So I mean my question is have we hit mass with podcasting? You know, from an audience perspective, I mean, how many podcasts? So you were on Charlie Rose. Let me take a detour. Actually, you were on Charlie Rose last week. I think it came out last week.

I think so. Yeah, and you were talking about, you know, kind of is this this great awakening you with a bunch of other guests, Um, great awakening of the you know, re rethinking of the golden age of audio, and Um, my question is have we really hit mass in audience or have we hit mass in volume of content? Right? Well, in terms of volume of content four thousand podcasts and iTunes, I think that's critical mass, chaotic mass. Yeah. I hope that actually clears out a little bit because it's just

way too confusing to find what you want. In terms of audience, I think there's a lot more awareness now of podcasting. I think the audience has a long way to grow. We're still I don't know, quarter to a third of Americans who regularly listen. I think most spoken word audio will be listened to on demand in the future. So I think we have a long way to go. But now it's not a joke. I mean in the old days, I would go to a dinner party and say what I did, and people be like, podcasting isn't

that dead? No, No, it's going really well, but they you know, it had totally lost its cachet. Well, now that's not true. Yeah, now that's not true at all.

When you talk about you know, we're only a third or two thirds of the way there, you know, with technology and Alexa and I have talked quite a bit about the disappearing interface and the idea that audio will be that pervasive through line through everything we do, whether that's you know, via your technology in your hand, whether that's smart home audio in your home, whether that's in

your car. So those sort of some kind of ambient assistant, right, So those are the things that get us excited and saying, like, to your point, like, we haven't even approached the tipping point in terms of where there is this critical, massive audience that understands the power of this medium and storytelling. We talk a lot about you know, brands understanding that

you know, podcasting is only one part of the audio strategy. So, as somebody who's the chief content officer of what I would deem an audio network, what are some of the things that you see as being utility and audio that brands can start thinking about exploring. Well, one thing is, we just launched a children's audio service called Penna, which is a subscription service, and this is, you know, the

opposite of ad supported. We decided very affirmatively that we did not want to have advertising for children in this network, so we made it a paid subscription service with a free podcasting component. But people have been saying for a long time, when are we going to get to the point when people will pay for audio? And it's hard with podcasts being out there free for a dozen years now, Um, people are not used to it. The advertising model works

really well. It's far less intrusive than radio. It's more interesting the ad so it works on that level. But um, for kids audio, we at least really don't want to

do that advertising. So we're now going to have this grand experiment where we're putting a lot of great programming, archival and original programming in this app Penna, and people are already in just a few weeks they're signing on and we're getting a great feedback for it is seven month or seventy nine dollars for a year, and so if it's sponsorship support, because this is the thing that a lot of brands are starting to face now right where there's people being will or people are willing to

pay for app services and content services, etcetera. Because the ad model has become so intrusive or not contextually relevant, it becomes sort of, you know, attractive, It's attractive to the experience. So how can will brands have an opportunity at all to play within the Pinnas base? Do you see them being able to create original content at any time in the future. Is this something that you're preserving strictly for programming At the moment, we're keeping it just

a programming. We'll we'll have to think about whether that fits into the strategy going forward, but right now we're trying to establish it with our own original programming and with audio books and other things that are you know, don't have any brands mentioned. How How do you okay, so I knew that was Are you going to download it for Phoebe? I am actually um for my too, and she's a little young for us where we started four, she's advanced. I have no doubt anyway. So she screams

at Amazon, we changed it. It's not Alexa, it's Amazon. It's not Axa Amazon. She said, yeah, because it's ridiculous when we're on the phone. Um. But so I want to challenge that, because how do we start separating programming from quote branded content, especially around advertisers, uh and brands like a Lego. Do you see Lego movie as just one giant branded content piece. I see it very much as like what we did with the message, which the point was to make a good movie, and they did.

The Lego Movie was fantastic. Yeah. Um, I think not everything achieves that level. But if that's the aspiration and you achieve it, then I think it's great that. I mean, could brands come to you and say we want to do something like that, and you guys would be open to creating it, like underwriting content that no, actually creating original content. So like if a Lego came to Panoply and said, listen, got it it pin a no advertising.

We love that, but we've got this crazy, you know idea and we're doing you know, aided um walk throughs of new wired legos, you know, for kids, and we want it. We're launching it on Amazon Echo. You know, could you conceivably cross the line, we'd be happy to talk about it. But the the ultimate arbit arbiters of what will be appropriate for the service will be the people who are paying money for it, That's right. Yeah.

So one thing that Alex and I are on this bit of a crusade around is the idea of the live read and how people if if we're going away back from subscription into the add model more than just the live read, right, it's just advertising and advertising, And I think one of the things that we have a little bit have been a little bit frustrated with has been the idea that brands are kind of creating these boilerplate briefs and they're handing them off to us without

any sort of contextual correctness around the stuff that we're talking about. Is this something that you see becoming an issue and a reason why, just like Spotify, just like Hulu, people may want to deviate away from a ad supported model to a pay to liston model because we haven't protected the space in which people are like, I don't want to listen to five ads before I get into

the content. It's just and they're and they'ren't even relevant. Yeah, well, I do think that those sorts of ads that are just read off a piece of copy are not as engaging. They don't work as well as the improvised direct response ads that people in podcasting do so well. So I do think that will start to have fatigue set in for listeners, and there may be more impetus for people to subscribe to add free versions if they're available of podcasting.

But there isn't a really good solution now for how to get podcasts without ads. I mean, there is no one universal solution. There are individual one. Slate of course has Slate plus where you can get the podcast without ads, and bonus content on um Mark Marin has something, but each of these is for an individual network or even an individual podcast, and I think it's going to be hard to scale that because smaller podcasts, less popular podcasts are not really going to be able to jump on

that bandwagon. Atreon is one other possibility for that, but it's hard. And I do think you're right that for the live read model, we have to protect what makes that work, which is clever, improvised content that is contextually relevant to the podcast itself. Yeah, I agree. So one thing I want to talk about, So you just signed with w m E. That's right, not me personally. Well, write on that for work on that for you exactly. Um, well,

my dad was with William Morris before. It was really every time this happens, you never know, like the deep fan connection. This is happening kind of all over the place, right, So you're not the only network that's announced that they're working with some kind of you know, Hollywood, um negotiation creative shop. Right. Um, what do you think the future of audio to site and motion is going to be?

Is it going to get stronger? Are you gonna Is this like a road that goes two ways where maybe Piano Pole is going to be pulling ip from Hollywood or feeding well and both and that's feeding Hollywood. I p is happening now, right, But you know what does it look like on the flip side? Is that something you're also looking at? Yes? Absolutely, we are actually actively

in talks for doing something along those lines. You know one reason that we're with w m is we've been working with w m E for years now, they've brought us projects, they brought us potential podcast hosts. We have a really good working relationship with them already and with other agencies, so there it's been going both ways. But the advent of i P on the podcast side moving

to Hollywood is relatively new. There's movies being made, Amazon series sorts of stuff, and honestly, as I talked to the agencies, they say that pod cast i P is the hot thing in Hollywood. It is. They're just hungry for anything that has proven itself in another medium, and you have this explosion of creativity going on in podcasting, so it's the natural place to look. Now. I grew

up in l A and Hollywood. My parents were both in the industry, so I know how cyclical this is and how quickly something can go from the hottest thing to a total afterthoughts. So I'm not holding my breath and thinking that podcasts are always going to be a feeder for Hollywood. But I think, you know, as long as the creativity persists, it's going to be an excellent place because it's a lot cheaper to try something in

audio than it is in video. Do you see a day where one of these podcast networks or many of these pod NetCast networks come together and create a super media company. Um, you know what happens to Apple and what happens because they own the pipes. At the end of the day, they own the pipes, and that is the thing that kills is killing agencies. It's the thing that's killing a lot of cre native um when people don't own the pipes and don't understand the pipes. And

so could that happen to podcasts? It could? I mean, up until now, the technological barrier to podcasting has been surprisingly high, and the fact that the iPhone has a podcasting app native installed when you get the phone has been the easiest way to tell people to get podcasts. It gets a lot of people over the hump. And all these other apps that have come along, especially for the iPhone and for Android, that involve having to go

find it, install it, set it up. It's just an extra step that few people are willing to make if there's an easy solution right there on your phone. So it would be very hard to do that, especially with content that is widely available everywhere. I do think it's conceivable. I mean, you know, how much would it take to buy up all the podcasting companies in the world. It would take you know, less than your average your acquisition,

not a lot of money, so it's possible. But still getting people over that hump when there is a good ad supported solution right now, I think would be difficult. Plus, you're never going to get everyone to pay. You're always going to have to have some sort of freemium model, and I think that you're probably always going to have the majority of people listening to the ad supported version,

and I think that's great. I think having a freemium model like that is probably the best of all worlds because it gives access to people who can't afford it or don't want to pay for it for some reason, but it gives people who are willing or can do it a better experience. It's going to be like the difference between what Broadcast and Netflix is today to what I imagine you know, Apple will be to this TBD thing I think we're talking about. Yeah, I'm excited by it.

I think it's really because it it does come down to the content. I p if Panically or Gimlet or w my C is producing the best content out there, and then all of a sudden decides to create that pipe and invest in the technology you to do it. Raising my hand, why wouldn't I want to go over and listen to those shows in the same way that I could only get House of Cards on Netflix? Right? I mean, it's what's happening with Disney right now and Netflix.

I mean, that's the whole thing. And that's why I ask. And We've always been good at dreaming about things, um and then making them, making them so um, something that I'm like obsessed with. I've been asking everyone that I know do you listen to podcasts? And the people that say no, they follow it with but I know I should be always right. So podcasting has this fomo craze, right, fear of missing out all over itself. What can brands do?

They don't have to be the g E and come right and create original content with you, um and really share the I P with you. Right, But what can brands do today to start getting their toe really dipped into the space in a meaningful way. Well, the good news is, unlike branded content in print, where you have to it's hard to get people to go to your page. You know, all the strategy is usually going to an editorial organization and doing sponsored content on that page, so

it's separate. There's always that word they're sponsored, right, and it is different. It's like separating it from the other content. The great thing about podcasting for brands, for individuals, for anyone who wants to get into it is you're all there in the same place. You are equal. And if you make good content that is relevant to people and doesn't sound like an AD, because no one's going to

go seek out an AD. But there have been many examples beyond the message of really good branded content that is useful to people and they there is not that differentiation because anyone can play in that space. And you know, we got to number one on the iTunes charts. It wasn't number one on the branded charts. It was just the number one podcast. What are other examples, Andy, If you could just rattle off a couple of brands you

see doing it really well right now? Um, I think Gimlet is doing really great branded content with their partners, and I think they know instinctively that it has to be an interesting show and has to have good stories on it in order to be interesting. But I suspect that they're doing quite well with it because I see them on the charts and their stuff is getting a lot of attention and it's good. Um, there are a

number of other places doing it, we hear it. Slate and panopally have been doing it probably longer than anyone else. We had one of the first creative studios and one of the first brand it is actually the first. What's in your cue right now? What are you listening to? Hang on? I'll I have to be honest. I spend most of my time listening to potential and in process shows pilots. Yeah, I have so little time to just sit back and listen to podcasts for entertainment. Now, this

is the curse podcasting. Is that I you know, doing that listening to a podcast for pleasure. It feels like I'm cheating, like I'm going to get in trouble for it because there's no work element to it. That's so funny. One more last question, what does global audio look like? It's so I mean, audio is such a great place right to really get to global audience. Is that something that you guys. I'm winking at you because I know

that's something you guys have been plotting towards. But what does that really look like like other language podcasting and audio coming from originating maybe in the US. Well, um, Slate just launched l gab Fest. Did you know about that? Oh yeah, I read about it? Which is the Slate and panoplies first Spanish language. Any other language podcast I'm trying to plot speak Spanish or is it translating plots? Is not on it. It has a completely different cast

of folks. But you know, I think Spanish language is probably the next big market because you know, it's just such a global reach. Um. I think Chinese would be interesting, but there's some question as to whether the Chinese government will allow podcasting of the kind of crazy um no holds barred type. But you know, English is such a powerful language worldwide that I think there's we we have a lot of our audiences overseas. We hear from people all over the world who listened to our podcasts. The

message charted in countries. So yeah, before we let you go kill by d I y really quick, what would you kill? What would you buy? What would you do yourself? I would kill the term podcasting if it was possible to kill. At this point, I think it has gotten enough brand awareness that, um, it's too late. But I think to a person, podcasters, at least those of us who have been around for a long time, think it is a terrible term. It refers to a device that

doesn't even exist anymore. It was a joke. It was a joke in a newspaper column. Really yeah, at the end of two thousand four, I think this guy was just throwing out funny names that this new medium could be called, and it's throughout podcasting, and somehow it stuck. Everyone at MPR went yes, no, they weren't that interested in if those of us in it said, oh, that's kind of funny, and then it just kind of stuck around. People have been trying to rename it for years. I

think that ship is sal for now. For now. But I also when people talk to me about podcasting, and then Lauren and I talked about this in Laura said earlier, it's not about podcasting. To us is this is about audio? This is about audio. It's audio on demand, video on demand. Yeah. I would buy the Echo and the smart speakers because I think that's you tend for like a hundred dollars. I mean I did buy one of the speakers. Yeah, um, I think that is going to be the future of

this medium. Agreed. I think it's so important because it's all about voice. Could you imagine if it becomes Alexa casting? I will literally lose my mind. No, you lose your mind. I'm gonna lose my mind. I think Apple and Google are not going to allow They're not going to allow that to happen. But it's a race. And what would you do yourself? I would do I would carve out time to make more children's podcast myself. Oh nice, I love making kids podcasts. You could be like the Mr

Rogers podcast. But he actually I forgot this. You didn't you do something with your dot? Didn't you write? You write? You wrote something for your daughter. You started doing a podcast together in two thousand five when she was five, and uh it. We went on for four or five years and it's now in Pinna. It's called Molly and the Sugar Monster, and which, by the way, so in your Twitter bio in which I didn't know, I was like, what does he talking about the sugar Monster? But now

I know. Yes, he's a guy who comes to children's dinner tables and tells them don't eat anything healthy. Amazing. I'm not note. Thank you Andy Bowers Johnton, Officer of ANIPLA. Where can people find you Twitter at Andy Bowers? Awesome, Andy, thank you, thank you. It's been a blast. Andy Bowers, thanks for joining us on the episode, and we're always supporting our show and us of these ladies going into l gap Fest. Maybe there's a la wait I don't

speak Spanish. I was a German student, Lindia German. The next version, um, yes, So we want to thank Cameron Drew's are almost eighteen year old producer. Thank you kill that joke eventually, Kim, I can't. I gotta get maybe when yeah, maybe when we one we'll take you out. So thank you to our friends and family, a panoply, and a big thanks to our listeners. People who are talking to us on added Landia Podcast, emailing us at at Landia podcast at gmail dot com. Please review us

on Apple Podcasts wherever you're listening to pods. And one of the re us I think we'll come away with this episode is tell five friends we'll take you out for pizza as many as we can fit around the pie. So thanks for listening everybody. We'll be back in two weeks m H Full disclosure. Our opinions are our own.