Content or Commercial: Inside Content Studios

or in March. It's March madness. March is coming in like a lion, so march. On to the topic of this episode, the content studio. The content studio. So we have Auto Bell, who's the chief creative officer of Courageous, a Turner Media content studio, and they've been around for a couple of years and kind of burning things up. So in the spirit of it being our first creative lead episode, we are going to make this a podcast short and welcome Auto Bell to the show. Welcome to

the show. Auto, Hello, Otto and you ladies. Nice to see you both. Yes, thank you are so happy you're here. We are very happy you're here, So I haven't seen you since we were both at Ogilvie. You were leading Ogilvy Entertainment. So tell us now you're at Creatius. What was the path from agency into media company? UM? I arrived at CNN because I had UM just like sounds like you just went to the doors and you're like, I'm it wasn't it was? It was. It was a fun,

fun origin. So I don't know if you know this one, Laura, but it's um. We haven't talked about it. So I got really friendly with um cat's head of sales at CNN, Kakugach, that's right, and we became good friends over the years. Because I was at Ogilvy, we were carving out all of these interesting deals with like BBC World News and CNBC in Times Now of India, all of these these sort of multi platform TV lead deals for content, and I was always trying to work with CNN with my

then boss Dog Scott. We were trying to we was trying to get something away at CNN, but they were so strict about their church and state they just wouldn't do anything exotic in terms of hybrid deals or anything like that. So it could but then a couple of years later, UM cat gave me cool and she said, oh, I want you to come in and let's chat about

a marketing job. And she introduced me to some of her colleagues, McAll and we got to talking and it became clear pretty quickly that they needed helping in brand with branded content. And by that time Jeff Zuccerd arrived and and he had really um he'd become a lot more thoughtful about about the network, about adding entertainment properties

to the network. That kind of broadened the definition of journalism, you know, stuff like Bourdaine and Lisa Laying and w Kamal Bell and so the company was ready to do to do more and to um but in but obviously in a very careful way. So we struck on the idea of setting up a brand of content studio. How many years ago was that two and a half two and a half years ago, So right in the prime of everybody started Russia, there was like t brand existed. Yeah, yeah,

there was one or two. Um but that's the thing. I mean, you swing a cat now on this town, you're gonna hit somebody who's opening a content studio right Well, about that, let's go right there. Well, they're everywhere. I mean, we very when we set up Courageous Um we named after Ted Turners, America's cup winning yacht actually, but it also speaks to the mindset um that we want our clients to be in, right, We want them to be brave and bold and and and and open minded and

generally courageous. But the but yeah, with everybody opening a brand studio, I mean, the trick is you've got to really look very carefully at what sits behind that. It's very easy to hang a shingle. But to my experience, I mean, you guys probably know no better, but everything that I see that seems to be a lot of hollow studios out there. So a lot of um account handlers or folks who will kind of take your order

and then they'll turn around and they'll produce something. Yeah, and they'll hire a bunch of freelancers to actually execute the work. Or it's maybe a rebadged marketing department right going by another name in a cool new corner of the office. We we built this, We built Courageous from the ground up. We took a very different and that was part of the part of the deal. When I joined is that we're going to need to do things

a certain way. Had a lot of a lot of scars and a lot of lessons from from Ogilvie and wanted to build something quite, quite deliberate and quite self sufficient. So we set out and we we we hired a full time team. I think we're up to about thirty five full time staff. Now. UM, well, everybody makes and does so with it is a lot when you consider that everybody is either a cinematographer or a craft editor, or a filmmaker director, or a graphic designer or a

web developer. You don't have account people running around. No, that's handled by other parts of business UM, which is great. So we just focus on actually making the stuff. What differentiates Courageous from everything else that that is in the market. What sort of the elevator pitch um when you walk in and are going up against UM bids for commercial spots to full live production, uh, cinematography, What does that

look like UM to you? Because there are skills I think that you have within the walls of Courageous UM that many folks don't. Yeah, thank you. I mean in terms of differentiation, it is it's self sufficiency with that ability, I mean we're doing things that at one five the cost of a of a creative agency or a glossy production company because we've taken the two biggest costs out of production. So we don't have day rates for freelancers and we don't when we own our own gears, So

that is one big differentiator. But then we're also pretty particular. Snobby is another word about the folks who we've brought on board, because in a world where everybody wants good, fast and affordable, the good part, the quality part can often suffer. And deliberately tried to hire the same caliber of people that you'd find kicking around and see an n newsroom. We have them courageous working in the dedicated way for brands. So I'm talking about Emmy and Morrow

winning filmmakers. Um. I mean, we've only been going just over a couple of years and I would hasten say we're probably the most awarded brand studio of in America this year already, you know, everything from the can lines to to Digit Day naming as the best publisher for video. So we are We're very focused on the people that we bring in to make sure that they can um deliver at at a at a high quality, you know,

the kind of commercial production standards which brands expect. You know, just because they're moving, they're moving maybe from an AD from an agency of record model to an AD more project by project basis, they're not given up that that polish that they have spent years and billions of dollars honing, you know, like they still very they still care a great deal about that. So you know, we're very conscious of that, and I try to make sure that the

work is um certainly looks looks good enough. But then also the big the big difference, and we can talk more about agency versus publisher, but we're going to go there. But I mean that that idea of having a value exchange. Now, now there's so you ask, you know, making commercials and that sort of stuff. Our commercial will be a secondary output of what it is that we do. You know, I'm not really in the business of making thirty second

spots of trying to replace a traditional creative agency. You even want to make them do CNN or just sorry, just Turner want you to do it? Well, No, I mean what we're seeing is a lot of clients asking for it. You know, they'll startup. Yeah, they'll they'll well, what what happens is we'll start off making something too three, maybe an event something like that. They'll see it online

or they'll see it on TV. You know. We have these pod takeovers where were Native plus, where we just run a piece of content instead upon a bunch of thirties. They'll see it, they like it, and then they'll want to graduate it to a full campaign. So they want to take it off of our network and play it everywhere, you know, on the side of a building in Austin, or in cinemas or around the Super Bowl. I mean,

these are all real examples. That's a good question. Is you said campaign, but then you were talking about a specific execution. I mean, are you seeing the work that you're doing informing larger kind of campaign or campaign strategy. I'm seeing them being picked up and used as a campaign. Okay, what's the best brief you've gotten? Um? The one that can change, you know, the one where I can do what I want? Can you still pay me? I got far better people than than I'll give you an example, um,

video game company Square Nicks. They they do Hitman and Lara Croft and stuff. They have another franchise, d s x UM. It's set like fifteen years in the future and mankind is divided between people who have changed their bodies with technology and people who haven't. It's like this war going on sounds like my kind of game. It's mine kind of divided day sex mine kind of. So they came to us and they're looking to go beyond

average gamers. Um. The initial brief that came in was for like some homepage takeovers the day the game released, Like why you know why because people don't even think about media, right, so how can they go on brief you on something that they came and they said, we want some because impact. Well, yeah, I mean company who's creating cinematic content that people interact with. What was it

good about the brief was they listened. So they started to look at the brief and because they're journalists, they can't help themselves. These are a lot of my my filmmakers. They these are the people on your journalism. Yeah, and they start looking they're like whatever, They start scratching away at it and they're like, well, you realize that this

isn't science fiction. Like a lot of what your game deals with that's actually happening now, and they found, you know, the first cyber hate crime in France like six months earlier, and and then the and then what they pointed out though in the case that we made back to the client is yet there is no bill on the floor of Congress. There's no one body who's thinking about this

subject matter. This is all you know. The science is galloping ahead, but nobody's nobody's tackling it in a thoughtful way. So what we ended up doing was we ended up having the first UM summit on human augmentation, like the first conference for cyborgs in the history of the world. So we'll be back after this quick break. So we're back in the studio with maybe first creative on the show, officially our first creative on the show, Atto Bell, chief

creative officer of Courageous. Can you explain to our listeners how do you push back or redirect the conversation. So you said you came to the table with insights, you were looking at weight, deeper contacts, differ context. What what it was that process like for your team to sort of pivot the client to get to from hoping to take over to a cyborg conference. If you didn't even blink, it's um. It's the first word. Well, there's a couple

of things. There's UM, a lot of communication and then yeah, backing it up with insights and research. You're not going to get past go without a counter argument, you know, a big media insight backed up with statistics, UM and some kind of concrete research. Before you go on any kind of flight of fancy or creative meandering there there has to be the counterpoint, like we heard you on this, but did you know that x um so they wanted to go beyond a hardcore gaming office audience and we

did that. You know, it's it's public knowledge. We we boost the sales by on Amazon during the during the campaign, like we have real results on how we affected the numbers. You've got to have the client who's open to it. I mean the amount of time that we'll spend and we've worked together, you know, the amount of time will spend talking about things in pre production. It saves you so much time later write. One of my pet pees with publishers is like trust us. You know, hey, we've

got this from here on out time. What I haven't done right is dumped something on your desk after two months of radio silence and said like, hey, review this rough cut, and it's a million miles away from anybody who works with Alex, and I know that we don't live in silence. So um, it's interesting. Alex and I go back and forth a lot. And you were getting to this earlier on the conversation around talent and the types of backgrounds or skill sets that you're pulling from.

What you were just described riving would be research and strategy in a way in which you're pulling from different departments. I know that you have Launchpad, for example, which is a tremendous social insights tool that your team uses to field editorial. Can you talk about some of the inputs and what the skill sets look like in this sort

of modern version of content creation. Well, in my case where I've sort of netted out is it's weighted in favor of folks with editorial backgrounds, with a healthy mix of advertising professionals, and then just the dash a data science that would be that that would be the recipe that I'm cooking with. So those editorial guys, Um, those

people are worth their weight in gold. It's a hell of a lot easier to teach marketing to a journalist than it is to teach a marketer how to be a journalist, like their instincts to kind of source report, to get on the phone and track down a right story and not stop until they've got to an under explored angle or an interesting narrative hook like that. That tenacity, it has been a revelation for me coming from advertising. Um. On top of that, UM, it is good to have.

I don't think you talked about that enough, by the way, Yeah, I think that when you kind of go into these meetings. You know, for anybody who has a studio, everybody talks about we have the pipes, we have the scale, we're built into X, Y and Z network. But actually coming at it, that's a point of differentiation in comparison to

a creative agency. Right, you're selling this is a commercial but this is a commercial company you've got And and to that point though, that's one of the promises that I make to the journalists who do come over and and work with me and concentrate on brands, is you know, you give me a few years of your time and I will in turn make you kind of fluent, commercially fluent right, like tell you how to market and how to market yourself, and which in today's business isn't essential,

it's absolutely crucial. I mean, if you've got a passion project you want to extract money from somebody in order to realize you'll create a vision, chances are you're gonna have to walk into a room and present and and know how to lay out an argument and and explain to a financier or somebody who's commissioning a project, why, why you deserve it. I always thought it was fascinating

that j school and business school were separate tracks. Yeah, because at the end of the day, there's really a need for at least the business school angle to live within journalism. It was interesting in yeah, the Oscars this weekend, you know, Francis McDorman is saying, finance our films. Yeah, you've got to go out, you know, you need to go out and know how to sell your work. What

is the difference between advertising and branded content anymore? Or how are you actually are you putting a line in the sand? Do we need to anymore? Is that funny? There's that good two thousand one wasn't at Seth Godin said Content Marketing is all the marketing that's left. I you know, I don't think we're there yet. I think TV is still pretty powerful. I would say that, though, wouldn't I work at and then look, I think the idea of of a value exchange, but to me, that's

always informed good marketing as well. So you know how much of this is new? I don't know. Theoretically not much, but in practice, in the articulation, in the expression of it, we are definitely living in a different time than we were even five years ago. The output, when you think

about the traditional thirty and sixty, is focused on the brand. Correct, When you think about the output of branded content in the sense in which the three of us are talking about it, the value and the focus is on the consumer and protecting that experience and making it hopefully a symbiotic relationship in the context of what they are watching. And that's the fundamental difference. It's not a break in the content. It's additive to the content, but it's also

about the context of the brand. The context of how a brand shows up is so important and probably more important now to brands than it ever has been before. Right, And at the end, I go back to trumping your values. Our first episode just so you know, auto, you should listen to it if you haven't already. Um, we talk about brands and and expressing their core values. I think

that content gives the ability. Good content gives the ability for brands to both express their core values in context of the consumer, and the consumer actually to interact with the brand in their own context. Right, So it's this two way. And and I think it was really interesting as well, is that in what you say, oh, brands expressing that cool values, that there a lot that scares a lot of people and like, oh, you're you're expecting me as a brand to take a stand and to

wait into these That is not. No, you don't have to be divid iceive in order to take a stand, and that's one of the great misconceptions, like what we did on New Politics and purpose. And there's also a difference between taking a stand and having a perspective. It's like having a pulse and being a corpse there. I mean, right, I didn't hear either one or the other. But there are plenty of moments out there, like like New Year's Like what I did that our first live ad was

around the eclipse. Yeah, that's great. But what was nice about that is, alright, the country's and uproar, a lot of people taking sides, but on that day, everybody looking at the same moon, everybody united in this fabulous moment. Same thing with New Year's. Show me somebody who's not hopeful for the New year on December one, you know, So there's plenty of it's talk to them January. Different purposes,

a very different thing of politics. Yeah. At a upfront a couple of years back, I remember Donna Special up on stage talking about Turner moving away from frequency in the number of spots that they were putting in their prime time programming and focusing on building longer pods to allow for this narrative, this longer narrative which you call natas plus within prout programs on T and G, TBS, etcetera.

Interestingly enough, NBC came out just a few days ago and he said, we are going to be moving to fewer of them to protect our programming as well. Is there a trend to sort of protect the consumer experience and does that change the difference between content versus commercial. Yeah, I think there's a lot of experimentation happening, and for

good reason, right. You know, the problem or one of the side effects of the rise in subscription models is that it accentuates the adverts that remain, the commercials that remain in your life. When you have a a newspaper subscription, when you have a Spotify subscription, when you have Netflix subscription, all of these things they exacerbate the commercials that are left. They feel even more painful, they feel even more interruptive.

So yeah, so you're right. The traditional broadcasters and cable nets, they are you are seeing them cut their their adload. NBC is is ten, you know, that's that's two cable promos a sorry, two network promos per commercial break. We'll get them to that target. So I think, honestly, I

think they I don't know if that's enough. You know, we did fourteen hours of commercial replacement last year, which is where we put content like mine made by Courageous into commercial pods and kicked out all those thirties and we did fourteen hours of that. So it's it's what was the reaction for that. Some of them are holding the rating, which, as you know is is very depressive incredible, so um, which, yeah, so more of that please, But that takes to take you know, we turned around an

oil tank. It it takes time. Is there a future where brands start taking over and producing content themselves and maybe even more with editorial lens like what to you is going to want sustain your business and grow it? And then what do you think we're like some interesting pops or turns or swerves that you think may be coming in the industry, Well, it's already happening. I mean, you know, did you guys see the Lego movie brought

I mean, we brought it. We've brought this up. We brought them in in the documentary space, you know you had that. But not every brand is going to make a Lego movie like a full feature film, right, Yeah, I agreed, But I think in the short term there's going to be a reckoning. Quite I agree, quite honestly. Well, I think you know a lot of these magazines with websites are in trouble because because that the brand studio is, the cost of production is not commensurate with the ad

revenue that it generates. Right, they can't chuck. So you've got to there is a certain point where you've got to have either an incredibly valuable audience or critical mass in terms of distribution to sustain these kind of custom content deals, right like if you know, so for some what you're seeing is it's kind of like a death rattle of of print. And you know Facebook's algorithm change, They're only going to accelerate that as well. So I

think in the short term there'll be a reckoning. But long term, I think the future looks very bright for what we do. I think all the trade winds are, you know, pushing in our favor, and I think you will see more and more commercial replacement. I think you'll

see more and more addressable UM custom content UM. And I think it will be at the vanguard of a lot of these changes that we've been promised for so long UM, in terms of attribution models and and addressable I think custom content will increasingly be bound up in those discussions as the primary vehicle to get us to that nirvana that you know, that future we've been promised for so long. Do you see Courageous becoming the agency of record for blue chip brands? UM? Yeah, yeah, I do,

certainly entertainment agency of record UM. But then I also think the ao R model is somewhat outdated you know, I'm quite happy. Like, look, I mean, I really pride ourselves on our annuities. I think it's it's the way that you build a sustainable business. I want Courageous to be around twenty years from now, and I want people to look at it in the same way that they look at Ogilviana resume and like that place is a

great quality. Yeah, that's a great university for for what you know, that's a badge of come on in the water's warm kind of thing. But right now, would you say that most brands are discovering you because they're coming in through the front door of CNN from a media perspect to have our people coming in from the side

door looking for creative solutions. Now, the majority is it's coming through the UH, through the through the traditional media sells absolutely, I would say that, yeah, a slim majority. What's it going to take for that to become a standalone service? I'm not looking. I'm fine servicing media deals at the moment. I don't have a um a big interest in a white label production operation. There are plenty

of people. In fact, that's kind of a tough business and increasingly is and I think it is going to see its own degree of contraction as well. I mean, I feel very good about the production model today. That said, this whole thing is changing. Like if you don't if you don't like standing on a burning platform, you probably shouldn't be in marketing and advertising right now because it

is changing day by day. But as of today, do you see courageous in And Tom, you kind of said no to this, but I'm going to ask anyway, do you see courageous inventing any new forms of media that are um, you know, based on specific content or I P uniqueness. Yeah, I think one of the great revenue areas for us in the future is in some way or another. And we've had lots of conversations about it.

We haven't we haven't landed on exactly how best to do this, but it is unignorable the fact that we are generating so much I P on a daily basis. You know, I was in conversations like full stats, CNN, Great Big Story. These guys are churning out stories, headlines, investigative stories, feature reports. I mean, I was in a conversation recently with a competitor from a development team on a cable company and he goes Oh yeah, My my staff might runs a development apart because they love Great

Big Story. Because they wake up every morning and the first thing they do they check out Great Big Story for ideas well, for ideas for them exactly. And I think that we should be doing a better job of harnessing that. And we've got a lot of people who've got great commercial instincts. You know, that's what we do all day for our advertisers. So UM, I think we should um, you know that that that's that's one potential area I think in which we can grow. Do you

see a brand ever buying courageous? Oh, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. Again, let's see what happens to the landscape in the marketplace. But right now I think it's it's um, it's settled nicely, um where it should be incided to turn a servicing, you know, working outwards. So it's time. It's time. We're going to play our favorite games. You know this game she never told you No, I didn't tell him. I was creative.

He can come up with something on the spot. So we play our version of kill Fuck Mary, which is called killed by d I, Y killed by d I y, and it's what would you kill in the market? What would you buy? And what would you do yourself? So I don't know what would you kill? What would you kill? I would kill um lazy p s A s All right, don't you give us an example? Well, you know, you see a lot of them. Taxi TV is like a nest of bad p s A. You know, it's always

like or a brilliant revenue stream strategy. Oh yeah, no, don't get me wrong. The business model is fantastic. I just mean the content. You know, whenever you see it's always a celeb holding a sign in front of like a white psych and then it's like written signs exactly and then they prayed twenty of them out and that's supposed to have a real impact on you. I think there's just that whole industry can be so much more powerful, and they, I don't know, they just let themselves down sometimes.

I would really want to improve the state of p s as generally Like that, What was the next one? What would you buy? What I buy? It would have to be some kind of proprietary technology, because you know, buying like a VR company or an influencer network. I mean those are all things. You can hire somebody to do that and you don't have to pay a premium. So what tech like would change your life? Embedded branchips. I think it's got to be something like that. It's

got to be something. It's gotta be, you know, maybe something voice driven right now, but something is something really like, something that is proprietary where you're not just buying It would be three small people who I don't know, something like that, something like some kind of next um, some kind of frightening delivery system. Right like, so you're still black mirror, like you really want to be black mire

And what would you do yourself? Something you've seen in the market that you're like, I could have done this better, the auto bell way um experiential I we've we've dipped our toe into a few, you know, tad like events. Everything a tadlike event because it's the easiest shorthand like the monika for it. It's just it's just a way for people to But even that, I think that format is right for overhaul as well. I just think blending. I think well, I think events are a really efficient

way to harvest a great deal of reusable content. Generally, I think they're fantastic for that. And you know, in a day you can get eight hours of content which you can dice up and and and put out into the world. But the actual occasion itself, properly scheduling that, properly um curating it so that you've got everything from

music to food to insightful human stories. You know, no, please, really, I think we've all been to those conferences held by banks, held by management consultancies, held by our agencies, and they they they're not that interactive, they're not that varied. You know, it's a lot to you guys do that at the upfront this year. Maybe that's uh, yeah, yeah, have an idea, Yeah, a little a little bit close maybe maybe nineteen Yeah, okay, wait,

one more question. Sorry, what thing? Whether it's some kind of physical art piece, um, audio things some band er into, Like what are you jamming on right now? I got I got my new new film project coming out. We just got financing for that. I can't talk about the subject matter, but it's um, it's it's gonna be uh, it's gonna be a doozy. It's going to be a hell of a film. So I'm very excited about that. And and you know the full feature film. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

that's what going for a cinematic feature documentary. All right, Otto Bell, always a pleasure. People want to get ahold of you? How do they do it? Also Dot Bell at Turner dot com. Thank you Auto again. I don't think I've seen Auto for a few years now, so it's nice for me to see Auto. You've been working with him, Yeah, he's He's tremendous, and it's really fun to watch them sort of differentiate themselves in the market, and which is a very competitive space right now, super competitive.

And I liked, Actually, I liked the honest answer. Everyone says this part of it. Everyone says, like, Okay, we all know there's a little bit of a doomsday coming for like content studios and branded content in media companies. And he said that. But what I liked was a very honest response of like, this is a tough game, right and so I'm going to get the best people, and I'm very comfortable being a part of the media company that I have, and right now they're good with that. Right.

He wasn't looking to white label his Lucian. He wasn't looking to spin off and become a standalone creative shop. He was very comfortable playing in the space knowing what a network like Turner brings the space, and that's quality content, that's global pipes, that's differentiated. You know, I p in the market UM, and it's interesting. I think that they're just getting started and I'm really excited to see where they had next. One thing that I think that Turner

has that a lot of people don't have. A lot of media companies don't have is the ability to be live anywhere, kind of in a minute, in a second. And you guys prove that out with some of the you know, it took work, but and and pre planning, but you proved that out with a live ad you guys did with Mass Mutual. I would love to see programming where brands come in and actually do programming with them like that, but it's it's commercial, and I think

people would watch it if it was great programming. Totally. The biggest takeaway I took was um the idea of interspersing journalists and people with strict editorial background owns in the branded content space, and that's something I'll take away and start thinking about how we incorporate that in the agency model because it's not a skill set I think

many people are looking for. And until he said it, I didn't really kind of connect the dots around the rigor and fact checking and um looking for what he said a different way in and an angle that And I think it's one of those things that has been um un merchandised as when it comes to branded studios.

I think that like to that point, and one of the big things on the marketer side that's like boggles my mind is like, do we actually expect our creatives, whether it's at a branded studio or content studio, an agency, a media company, to actually give us really rich and phenomenal stories, right, and content and ideas when we're doing it in a fucking one page briefright. So with that, thank you, Cameron Drews. Are all our friends and family

at Panoply, met turk Andy Bowers, Jacob Weisberg. We will be back in two weeks after south By coming back at your atland. Yeah see out there y'all. Mm full disclosure. Our opinions are our own. Who do you think outside of courageous because you of course they're going to say courageous, Like, who do you think is actually producing the best content the Bronze studios or just in general. I mean you're going to say, like the BBC because you're British. What

am I enjoying right now? I think the New Times do a great job, you know, I think, UM, I think Anonymous is the kind of company that Anonymous and what Patrick milling Smith is doing with Smuggler, those are a couple of companies that I you know, that I would aspire to to. I mean, with Courageous, those are like but those are like production companies. Well they well they're diversified, you know, like like they have a bedrock of a commercial business. Radicals another great example of this.

Um they've got a bedrock of commercial business which does very well, world class work. But then you look at them and they're diversified, and they have been from diversified into like editorial Broadway. Yeah, yeah, I mean Anonymous, You've got an Oscar winning studio, UM, Patrick's got VR and

and Broadway going very nicely. Radical or obviously you know it must be one of the top five producers for Netflix at this point, Like UM, there are great opportunities, and I think my point is this, like I would like to grow a business where it is totally format agnostic, right like where the medium or the story dictates the medium and the channel. We're getting there. One of the nice things of out being at CNN is I can

play this game a little bit. I've got two TV stations, we've got an international network, we've got the airport network, we've got a Snapchat channel, weve got V O D, we've got O T T, we've got biggest social handle and us. What that equates to is a channel agnostic sort of approach whereby you tell me your problem as a brand channel challenge exactly, and I'll build you an event, or I'll build you a TV show, or I'll build you a short form film series, or I'll put all

of those things together working in concert. So I'd love to get to that, um, you know, even outside the commercial realm marketing. Yeah, and STELLF financing marketing and financing and that that's that's the that's the utopia. You know. I've done it a couple of times in my career. Literally