Mask Me Anything

I wanted to wait until we hit record

Uhoh.

To say that you've picked a hum dinger of a topic today.

Hum dinger.

This is a, what did the kids say? Bopper. No, that can't be

It's a bop,

Yeah.

It's, it's bussing. No cap

No caps. The capacity is incredible. The capacity for interesting conversation is endless. Oh, man. I, I was not aware of what this was until you brought it up. Um, but we will get to that in a minute. Let me, let me just start off by saying that Alison Kendrick.

Oh.

Has a magic power.

Oh.

And that magic power is, coming up with engaging things to talk about. And that includes coming up with titles of things. You're, you're a good theme-er, you're a really good theme captain.

Oh.

I don't know what that means.

I

I like it though.

I like it. I'll be, I'll be the Theme Captain any day.

Be be my theme captain.

You know, thing that I am, uh, supremely proud of us we embark on season two, episode 12 of ADHd20, the podcast that tries to find the intersection between ADHD

and TTRPGs.

Yes. That.

There we go.

Is what a marvelous job the both of us have done. I think like finding and playing to our strengths.

Mm. Better and better every time. Yeah. Better and better.

It is fun for me to come up with topics. It is fun for me to come up with titles. It is no fun for me to make us look or sound good or find the exact cross section of technology to bring this sweet little podcast into the, into the eyeballs and ear holes. Oh, that went weird places of

Ear hole.

of the ADHd20 Faithful. Um, and that's where you do an exceptional job. And I'm so grateful to you

I just like it.

But you're so good at it too. So I'm glad that it sits where you want to sit.

Mm-hmm.

And that's,

Very much.

That does kind of lead us into what today's topic will be all about. But! We're not gonna reveal it yet. Cause we have a couple, we've got a couple spots to do. First of which, Matt, what did you hyper fixate on in the past week or so?

Oh gosh, I didn't do my homework. Do you wanna go first while I think

Um, I, have been delving into the beautiful, wonderful world of, um, Adobe Illustrator. So I'm a Photoshop girly. I, I have been having fun in Photoshop doing what I call a digital decoupage for years now. I'm not telling you I'm good at it either, but I, I somewhat understand what I'm doing in that program.

Yeah.

Illustrator is

Totes diff

Uh, it is. Yeah. I, I, and it's funny cuz Evan will help me from time to time and, and he will have to kind of correct me and be like, I see why you're doing that cuz that is what you would do in Photoshop, but don't do that. Um, and so for a really long time, because it was new, I just ignored Illustrator, I just pretended it didn't exist. But I have been designing a logo, not taking the easy way out and leaping into Canva, doing it for real.

Mm-hmm.

I think that's a hyperfixation, isn't it? Time blindness is not the thing that I usually suffer from, but I have been lately, every time I've been opening up ye olde Illustrator,

Well, that's fun. At least it's, it's moving you forward to something that's helpful for all of us, so that's good. yes.

thought of another mini one. ChatGPT, been very hyper fixated on what can do for us lately

Yeah. All then I'll, I'll give you two that that are similarly, matched. Uh, number one, I did a lot of work on our friend Amy Cox's, um, company's website, Deep South Entertainment. I'm not the designer of this team, so, I, and I don't want to be, I'm not trying to be hard on myself. I, I don't need to be, because we have an incredible designer and a junior designer as well. But I, to make it fun for me, I had to go

Uh oh,

Out of my mind nuts on writing copy for fake copy for this website, which should see the light of day. Yeah. Uh, I also went down a, an AI based experience where I combined two images of Elton John and a Porta John

And the and results!

That was, that was part of it, part of the job. The results were fantastic,

Magical.

Creepily fantastic. Oh yes.

Why don't we roll some d100s? Today's dice. Gosh, I love this. These are dice that were given to me by our, the other Matt in my life, our good friend Matt Williams, that you've heard about. I I love the video format that we, I now get to show off my dice.

I'm, I'm using my little gorgeous wooden dice that I bought at, um,

Those are so cool.

D and D Dice here in Chicago, Illinois. I Good people. Good dice. Great dice. Uh, 57 for me. What did you roll again? Sorry.

I hadn't said it yet.

Oh, okay.

Uh, I rolled a 30 Okay. This is a good one.

good.

What D&D class have you not played, but want to try?

Barbarian.

Oh,

I've never played a barbarian.

Well, Matt, you are going to be playing in a one shot that I will be DMing in July, with our beautiful patrons. I would like to openly invite you to bring a barbarian to that melee.

Well, perhaps I will. Wink, wink. Nod. Nod. Alison.

That's me!

Money and experience suddenly don't matter. What is your profession now?

Mm. I'm gonna say something really corny.

Go.

I think this might be it.

Wow. Wow.

I like, talking into a mic is really fun. So if this could be my full-time gig and money didn't matter, that'd be pretty cool.

I think I'm right there with

ya. Let's do it.

You. I think I'm right there with you. Yeah. Let's you know, we don't need those things.

Yeah.

We don't need those. We're still doing it, which is one of the wonderful things about it, but,

Yeah.

There is no but, that's it.

That's

So thanks everybody for listening cuz you are, you are willing us into existence.

making our dreams come true.

I mean, we obviously, I mean, we would still do it without you, but

It's

You're, it's way more fun with you.

Mm-hmm.

Love it.

I do. All right. Well that, was fun.

Yeah.

I feel like we need some like ringing bells to unveil today's topic. So this is one, this is a tenet is the word that we typically use, symptom, side effect, of ADHD that caught my attention back when I first got my diagnosis. Definitely since we've been doing this podcast, um, that I've been very curious about, like what it means and how I apply it, but I didn't know much about it and then I started reading about it.

What?

Hey.

We got it under control now it's under control. And a two and a three, and a four and a. There

We know what to expect now, and you know how to stop it. So

Thank God.

Preparation is key. Preparation is key. So anyways, our good friend Tey loves you know, kind of taking us by the hand and leading us through new and different gaming systems, which of course we love because if it were not for the people like Tey, I would do the same thing day in a day out. So I feel like you, I need those people in my life to like, push me and say let's go, let's try this new thing. So he said, there is a game I want to play with you.

Yes. That is the core. Yeah. yeah.

It's called Masks. And in Masks, you take on one of, I think there's eight or ten kind of stereotypical superhero

Archetypes.

Archetype personas. Um, and you, in the most beautiful, angsty, teenage fashion, save Halcyon City

Mm-hmm.

from certain doom, and other stereotypical superheroes.

Yes. Like, like lunch ladies and crushes and why did I start with lunch ladies?

I

Yeah. Anyway, well, you know, crushes and, and bullies and, and teen it zits and you know, teenage stuff too. Yeah.

People trying to take your lunch money before you get to the lunch lady

There we go. That, there we go. The lunch lady's trying to take your lunch money before you get to the lunch ladies.

Exactly, boy, we're really making people wanna play this game.

Yeah. Anyway, yeah.

We played this superhero game called Masks. We're hoping the first of many sessions. And so we wanted to talk about our experience with that, of course, on this episode.

Mm-hmm.

You and I are two people that have been diagnosed as adults. that we have shared a lot. Um, But I think, correct me if I'm wrong, we were both aware long before either of us were diagnosed that there was something spicy about us and our sweet little brains, right?

Mm. In that we spent an inordinate amount of energy masking, masking the hell out of our lives

Mm-hmm.

100%.

So as to appear normal. Mm-hmm. I know, like I have always thrived in the chaos. I have always been a fairly messy and, and disorganized person. And I remember the horror in high school of my locker and, and like it was one of those lockers that you open and just like exploded.

You had to make an RSD check and you failed.

I failed. Big time. Yeah.

Yes.

Um, I've also learned in the research, and this is something that that has been brought up by some of our friends, in our ADHd20 community since starting this. Some of these things just are more prevalent in women than men. Apparently masking is a big one of those things because, you know, there's the expectation of women we're gonna be kind of the planners and the ones you know, that are a little bit more with it and together not to be sexist.

Mm-hmm.

One of the big reasons that women often are either not diagnosed or are diagnosed later in life is because they, I'm not saying that they do a better job of masking, but they are more apt to mask, to try and cover those symptoms

and willing, yeah, more willing, more patient about it. According to Russell Barkley who coined this term masking, he also calls it impression management. Impression management. It happens in one third of people with ADHD, but I will immediately say that I believe that that number is far higher.

Mm-hmm.

I think to your point, there's probably a ton of women, especially who just, I mean, generally women have a higher tolerance to pain, and and acceptance of, of social injustices. And, and, uh, yeah. Yeah, that's what I, that's my vote. That's my vote, is that there's a whole lot more masking going on, but yes.

Well, and I found that, so I, um, you had turned me on to, ADDitude, A-D-D-itude

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I found this one, this quote really kind of stuck out to me cuz I was like, oh, I feel called out, "...From constructing highly structured environments to obsessively avoiding specific situations and people." So like, the part that made me feel called out was the obsessively avoiding specific situations. I think that I don't think that I am a control freak. This is not, these are not words.

I've got a bunch of examples here I would like to share. Um,

I, we did our research. We came with our little notes. We were little

yeah. Oh yeah.

gophers in name of science.

Uh, yeah. Here's some really good ones here. I'll try to pick out the ones that, that have always applied to me.

Okay.

Obsessively checking belongings to make sure you don't lose things. Bing, bing, bing, bing. 1000%.

God, yes.

Yeah. Uh, let's see. Seeming fine, acting, quote unquote fine when you're struggling to stay afloat. In my case, saying that I'm fine. In my case, going on stage and acting

fine.

Uh, going out and, and talking to people after a show or something. Uh, let's see. Arriving way too early. Yes. To ensure that you're not late to an appointment due to time blindness. Uh, here's a good one. Excessively writing things down so you don't forget things later. Bing bing bing bing! Uh, obsess

Oh, no.

This one, this one. Really, I, I actually had to take a breath after this one. Obsessively organizing paperwork and systems.

Oh,

Oh God. Oh my God.

It's you!

If people only knew, if people only knew, and I tried to talk about it, and that's not, that's just the tip of the iceberg, uh, bottling intense emotions until you're sick inside Yeah. And that's, that's a terrible one. Calling in sick to avoid being put in stressful or anxiety inducing situations, which I have done a lot.

Ooh.

Uh, not necessarily work, but just like social engagements. I do that unfortunately. Anybody who's listening this, that's my friend. I'm sorry. I've probably done it to you and I apologize, uh, but you know, now I know why. Let's see. Being irritable when you force yourself to concentrate on things that don't interest you.

Ouch ouch!

Uh oh. Uh

Called

Uh, Developing perfectionistic tendencies. Ooh,

Yeah. If it's not perfect, I want nothing to do with it. And that's so gross cuz I don't, I don't hold anybody else to that standard.

Yes, yes, yes. I

Ridiculous.

We about it all the time. Overdoing things until exhaustion sets in so that others can see how capable you are even when you're struggling. Uh, and here's another one. Here's Mimicking or copying other people in social situations.

That is a big one that I at least was aware of. Again, out of that desire to make other people feel more comfortable.

Mm-hmm.

And again, it all goes back to that in order to hide this aspect of yourself that you have not grown comfortable with.

So we're talking, we're literally talking about secret identities. We're literally talking about this and it, this just blew my mind

Mm-hmm.

Because the impact of doing this your entire life is, I mean for those of us that realize it, get help, get diagnosed and try to understand, try to forgive, go to therapy, whatever you need. Uh, okay. It's still difficult. It could be full on dangerous. Right. Um, certainly masking can lead to depression, anxiety, as it did me. Uh, you learn, you, you've just become exhausted from trying to fit in. You just, you and, and you just constantly think that you are a failure or whatever.

Those great grades were the result, the consequence of you masking because I'm betting those great grades didn't come easily for you, and you had to bend over backwards and twist yourself into ways that were really unnatural for your brain and body to be in order to have those grades.

Yeah.

Which is exactly the point you were trying to make in sharing with her. That's the thing. Yeah. I'm so proud of, you know, we'll say Gen X down embracing this, but Boomer Generations, Greatest Generation, like y'all need therapy and like you're dragging the rest of us down. Um, it, I mentioned this now, several episodes in a row, but, you know, the, the, my family vacation that didn't go well. A lot of that is my dad's refusal to accept his neuro spiciness.

Right.

Um, Yeah, and so it's interesting that you bring up, so one of the other things from the article that I pulled up from ADDitude that stood out to me was the consequence of ADHD masking. It says, ADHD masking, as we know, may delay or sabotage diagnosis, especially in girls or women. Internalized conditions including anxiety or depression, might develop as a consequence of undiagnosed, untreated and hidden ADHD. It also interferes with a person's ability to accept the brain they have.

I, I, yes. I see. I I see what you're saying. Yeah, exactly. And, this is one of those that, that is, is a major breakthrough for me because, these things, these impacts for masking, there have been times where, uh, it feels like a burden. ADHD feels like a heavy, heavy burden. This is so good to learn about because I think this is actually truly the way out of those kinds of feelings. Not okay.

So ready for me to, now I'm gonna reveal my, like, glass shatter brain break moment in all of this. And also connect the dots between the TTRPG that we played how I used it to, to, to reach this realization. So, uh, so Tey fed us all of the source material for this wonderful game, Masks. Matt and the other, Matt and Evan, and Fitz and I all chose our they're called playbooks. Our, um, our archetypes

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

And you kind of have a choice in your playbook of is your identity going to be secret or not? And so we were pretty split down the middle. A couple chose secret identity. A couple of us chose no, kind of out and proud with my, my superhero. I thought the most interesting one in the game that we played was the, the character choice that Fitz made. Um, she hides her identity of her, of her super, hero, uh, who is, uh, Critter Captain, which I just love.

Mm-hmm.

The masking is not Superman. The masking is Clark Kent. And so it's so remarkable to me that we're hiding some of the best parts of ourselves because of our perception of others', perceptions of us. Um, and it seems backwards. You think, you think of superheroes as putting on a mask, right? That like in order for like Clark Kent to go find a telephone booth and, you know, whirl into Superman mode, that's him donning his mask. But his biggest mask is him trying to fit in.

Right, right.

Why, you know, like, Stand out, you know, and

I thought Fitz did a really, really beautiful job in game of, of playing to both sides of playing Critter Captain and Reggie, and forging relationships and alliances on both sides of that mask, but, but Alison with the Meta Knowledge, Mm-hmm.

versus Alison's character, um, I don't know. It was just, it was kind of surreal because I had this like aha moment, I guess is what I'm trying to say of like, Masking is backwards from what you think it is. It's not you, you know, trying to make other people feel like you're cooler or have some superpower. It's you hiding the real you, the thing that makes you special and unique. You know, and that's, that's why we have these conversations, I guess,

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

to convince people to, I mean, you can be both sides. You can be multifaceted as a person. You can have special abilities and be entirely mundane, and that's okay.

Uh, uh, well, gosh. Yeah, it's, hmm. That's amazing. Uh, all right, let's, let's talk about some of the other characters too, because there's, there's some stuff in there. So your character, is basically out loud and proud, uh, as a super creature, right? She has an immense power, and does have like a cool hero name, which is French. I don't even remember it.

La Douleur Exquise! Because we were playing angsty teenagers, I created this character. Her name is, uh, Ciel Lavoie. Her parents are all, are also superheroes. She is very privileged and knows it. Um, and she kind of, the mask that she wears, and I did this very intentionally, is she tries so hard to be cool. So everything she's doing is, she's only doing so other people will look at her and go, wow, she's cool.

Exactly. That's what I was gonna say is like, I, uh, you know, your, your superhero was out, uh, in the open but then, but then Ciel still masks is still masking things. Uh, And then my character actually had sort of a, an affliction, like a curse sorts. And, only wants to be normal, because she transforms into something that is horrific.

Mm-hmm.

This wraith, this,

Mm-hmm.

um, I mean powerful and, you know, strong but scary.

Mm-hmm.

Just scary. And she does not like that. she, she also wears all these bright colors to try to get attention maybe to bring attention to the human parts of her, right. When, why, when she's human, that she can, she can kind of feel normal and that's all she wants. it's a great game because it is not about, uh, so Lindsay and I, we describe everything that's either combat or star fighting or anything is pew, pew, pew. So this is not a pew, pew, pew game, right?

Mm-hmm.

You, you can be in a fight with a super villain, but, uh, the roll of the dice kind of dictates whether or not you or the super villain become angry or ashamed, or afraid based on the hits that you make, which is amazing. And, uh, instead of, instead of attributes like wisdom, charisma, strength, intelligence, you've got things like, how dangerous do you feel right now? What's your, what's your danger level? What's your superiority level? What's your

Freak.

What's your freak? And then what's your, what's your

Get your on!

And that's so fun because it starts off, as, you know, it really speaks to teenagerness and, and the levels of, of, of, of heightened emotion and experience that you have every day.

Yeah.

Well, it was just a bunch of masking is what it really was.

It's, it is interesting. I never had thought about this before, but I was, I was not a hipster. I've never been a hipster. Um, but I was trying very hard to play to two very, like, disparate sides, right? So, on one hand I had embraced my, my geekiness. I, I knew that I was weird from the jump.

Mm-hmm.

I knew from day one of kindergarten that I was not like the kids I was going to school with. I knew I was a nerd. I knew I was a freak. I, you know, I've loved music and theater and all these things from a very young age. So I was in all of the choirs. I was in all of the theater productions. I was in all of the bands.

Yeah. You leaned into it,

I was also in a sorority and like, cared very much what the general populace of Mountain Brook High School thought of me.

Mm-hmm. Sports

Yes, and, and, and

Church.

In some weird way managed to. I don't even know how I did this, but I managed to be successful on both sides. Um, it, I, I was in band, I was a band geek. I mean, there's no two ways around this, but I was also in the most popular sorority and though that's what I wanted, right? I wanted to be in the band and I wanted to be popular. I was constantly feeling tugged, so I wasn't happy.

Yeah.

I had my real friends, you know, basically saying like, what are you putting on these airs for, you know, and then I had the popular kids doing what popular kids do, peer pressuring and, you know, trying to help make me cooler

Yeah.

than I was

Let's, let's talk about that actually, because that is, that is an endless amount of fascination for me as someone who was born in the early seventies, uh, my, my high school experience was identical to Freaks and Geeks, the show where there were very very clear lines,

Mm-hmm.

wide lines between the nerds, the jocks, the cool people, the unpopular, the freaks, the blank. really, it's difficult for me to watch that show even, though I love it because it is so real to me. And then I, it seems to me that 10 years later, you and Lindsay, my wife, who is profoundly deaf, and you would think, I mean, how many movies have you seen where the disabled kid gets made fun of all the time? I'm not saying that she wasn't made fun of necessarily.

Oh, I had trauma, but from something completely different.

Okay.

My trauma was not from my geekiness. Because I was loud about it. From an early age was kind of like, this is how I am. You're gonna take it or leave it. But I had an immense amount of trauma because of my weight, because teenage boys are assholes.

Okay.

So, so Yeah. They are, I think that, no, and it's totally fine. I think that shaped, I mean, and this is a whole other can of worms to open, I think that shaped my personality. You've got, a woman, a girl, a female with ADHD who is overweight in the south where we are, looks obsessed, So I have all of those factors working against each other. And what I have noticed about girls who had weight issues from a young age, we, we go one of two ways and they're extreme. They're never middle grounds.

Mm-hmm.

Shy, do not speak, or you are, guess which one I turned out to be you guys?

I dunno. I think you're right though. And I, I'm not allowed to speak on that in any way, shape or form, but

yeah.

From just experience of knowing people, it seems to be that, that makes a lot of sense.

Yeah.

Uh, okay.

But, I think that, you know, so we're talking about my neurodiversity and your neurodiversity and, you know, now high school archetypes and things like that. But I think, I think both of those parts of my personality, the, the overweight and the ADHD fueled my mask because it just sent me on this quest to prove something

Mm-hmm.

Which not good, but, you know, but to, desperate to fit in because I didn't, I didn't look like what people wanted me to, and I didn't act like what people wanted me to. So I was in a state of constant overdrive

Yeah.

To control what I could control, I guess.

And you say that you had some success though, and that's what I'm, that's what I'm getting at is, is what happened in those 10 years because I did the same things. what happened in those years where I get beat up

Yeah,

and you, no matter how hard I'm trying, and you you can, you can rise above, Lindsay can rise above and

I have a hypothesis there.

okay, please.

I think, first of all, I've long thought this, that you were born in the wrong era. I am very curious what Matthew Bivins been like if he too had have been born somewhere in the early to late eighties, for example.

Yeah, me too. Me too.

You are a thousand percent a Gen Xer. I'm not trying to pull you in it, but I, I do wonder what, what that would've been like for you. But I think something happened between, I think it started in the seventies and I think we started to really deconstruct it as children of the eighties. And then children of the nineties, two thousands and beyond are like full on bashing it down. Is this concept of a binary that there is you know, there's are as black or it is white.

Yeah. Right.

And I think that, that there was like, you were just like the tiniest glimmer back in the seventies with that of like, hey, there's, you know, nothing is binary. Nothing is one thing or another. Everything is a spectrum. Yeah.

That's what I, that's used to say everyday at recess. Yeah. Everything is spectrum. No, but seriously, I did feel that. I was always confused by that. Yeah. Continue, please. Right?

It's funny, my, uh, my best friend's oldest daughter, uh, when she was little, she used to say, but I just have a sparkly brain. I think just more accepted, you know, for, for people to have sparkly brains now. And the problem is, is that you had a sparkly brain when you were coming of age, and I had a sparkly brain.

Yeah.

I don't

Well, uh, well, I love it. That's, that's a great theory. And I especially love the part where it is, it continues to get better I see it too. I see it too,

The kids are all right,

Mm-hmm. , I think the kids are really alright. When I talk to our friend Nathan about this. Because he has a son and he's so in love with his son. He's so proud of him and so amazed at how much healing had, has happened , how much, how much Gabe is, is able to Gabe's whole generation, not just Gabe, but his friends and everybody. He's always just, Nate's just glowing about these kids. And, and, but we do talk about like, damn man, we did have that sparkly brain and we were out of time.

And then somehow from the ashes, we've got Gen Z flying in on their unicorns and Falcore dragon from The Neverending Story cuz they're into retro things now

Yes.

And saving the fricking day by presenting a spectrum in literally all that they do. It, it's a whole new generation of superheroes

Uh, yeah, it is, it is. I'm living through y'all. I am living through y'all. And, and instead of being jealous, okay, I'm a little bit envious. I'm a little envious, but Okay, so let's, one, one more thing I'll say is that a side effect of masking can mean that you are developing, systems and skills that help you

Mm-hmm.

In life. You know, I am early now to the airport. That is actually a good thing. That's a pretty, that's a pretty good thing. Uh, and, and I, the only problem is that I now have to dismantle the anxiety and depression, um, the comorbidities,

Yes.

uh, from those actions late, late, late in life. But it is kind of, it's cool that I've developed them, a lot of them. Uh, but yeah, j just to be able to be able to have that clean slate and. And have the doctors, and have the moms and have the dads around you to be able to say, okay, you don't have to mask.

I love how all of this just kind of weaves this web of

Me too

Thought strands us pull at, grabbing at 'em.

I, you know what? This, even if there's nobody listening to this right now, this is still a great podcast. Because it's so much to learn, so much to learn

Mm-hmm. We we, we got people listening though. We got some of the best people listening. I'll

We do. Thank you. Thank y'all for doing so.

Well, Matt, thanks

Well, Alison,

Coming on my podcast.

Thank you for being on my podcast.

I, I love our journey there that we went from me th profusely thanking you for having me on your podcast. Every episode. to me, having the gumption to say, thanks for being on my podcast, To the freaks and the geeks

Until next week, Oh shit.

Um, all right, well, glad, glad that we have another banger out there.

Banging. Yeah, that was actually the word I was looking for. Banger I, what did I say? Bopper.

Okay, boomer.

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