Yay. Uh, hi, Alison.
There it is.
Uh, Dale. You're gonna find that, that most of this podcast, if you, you know, if you have been listening, it is mostly just us giggling. It's pretty much 80% giggling, but, uh, yeah. Hi Alison. Uh, I'm really, really excited about today because, uh, we have a very special guest. Um, this has been already, this has been twice the amount of guests that we had last year. Is that right?
In episode four, like, we are making great time with this.
It's the best thing ever. It's the best thing ever.
And not only do we have a, a very special guest who you're gonna meet in a second, but it's, somebody that we didn't previously know. We made a whole new friend, uh, who wanted to come, come talk to us about the intersection of ADHD and tabletop role playing games. So let us stop talking and let's let him start talking. Please welcome to today's show, Dale Critchley of Publishing. Dale,
everybody.
great to meet you.
Thanks for being here,
I'm Dale Critchley, uh, owner and Chief Tea Drinker of Wyrmworks Publishing. And, um, we are dedicated to helping you make lives better with tabletop role playing games.
Yeah.
Love that. When you say chief tea drinker, we talking like Caduceus Clay tea, or what's, what's your favorite?
I start out my, my morning, uh, with a blend of, hazelnut chestnut and, um, and chocolate that's called, Uh, "They Said It Was Nuts".
They said it was nuts!
So good. Tea-rrific.. A really brew-ti-ful story.
Alison is the resident pun meister.
I could listen to you talk about tea for oolong time
That's really That's well done. I, you know, in our house, that's me, but, um, I didn't get much sleep last night, so, you know.
Gosh. Yeah. Okay. I love it. I love it. So would that make you the C Tea O and the CEO of Wyrmworks Publishing?
See get on this level, Mattie
I'm just gonna bag on me now.
No. Um, it is, uh, you know, I have, been, uh, uh, just kind of obsessed with Limitless Heroics. Um, which for those of you don't know. is, a book published by warm works publishing. and is a, if not the comprehensive compendium of mechanics, monsters spells all, all manner of things. Uh, that allow you to play D&D 5e characters with disabilities.
Uh, and it is incredible, and I'm so sad that I have not, I did not know that it existed before now because, in the more current three years that we've been playing, we've already built characters as a group that, that would so have benefited from the mechanics that you've put together in that amazing book. Like it is, it's astounding how, how well thought out it is.
We have a character with DID that we play with, and the kind of conceptual rules that you have put together just make so much more sense than the ones that we kind of try to do. Because it has this beautiful balance of something to play and honoring, but respecting, uh, the disability and, and understanding it, you know you go online. And it's like, oh, don't do it. It's so disrespectful. And so,
Mmm-hmm.
But I disagreed. I think that if you do it and you really take it, seriously, I learned a whole lot about something that I don't know as much about. Right? But you're, this book, so many more people need to know about this thing, cuz it's really, really great. Uh, everything that you're
I appreciate that. I mean, you know, it, what, what really made the difference was, um, just the number of people that we talked to. When I first got started immediately, I, I started, you know, reaching out to people and saying, um, look, I'm working on this thing. I don't know what it's gonna turn into. But, if you'll just talk to me about your experiences and let me bounce some thoughts off of you, you know, back and forth. Um, I'll give you a free copy.
I, yeah, I can't really promise anything more than that at this point cuz I had no idea what it was gonna turn into. Um, and, and just a whole bunch of people started saying, wow, this is so needed there, you know? And, uh, you know, thank you so much for doing this. And and then we went from there.
Once I figured out that this was gonna be more than just, uh, some little thing on DM's Guild and said, if we're gonna do this properly, we're gonna need a Kickstarter just so we can have the funding to do it right. And, um, started hiring editors and, and sensitivity consultants and.
And then once we had the manuscript done and the, the Kickstarter was done, we sent it out to, we had 2300 backers and we sent out the manuscript and said, take a look at this and if, if you are, represented in here, um, take a look at what we have and tell us, um, are we accurately, uh, expressing, uh, your experience. And we had, uh, 900 people downloaded it and looked at it. We got 90 pages of feedback and went through and looked at every single point and said, and, and you know.
And sometimes there was points where, because people's experiences are so different, two different people have very different, you know, thoughts on, on expressing it. And, and so we say, okay, how do we encompass both of these experiences into one, you know, game mechanic?
Right.
But we did it and, uh, but we had really great team and so I'm, I'm really thankful for them. I'm thankful for just all the, the people that, um, subscribe to our emails and, and, give feedback and, you know, and, and respond. And it's, it's really, it's a community. And it's just, it, it's great to to connect with people. And, I was, I was just talking to a reporter, this morning, about a what will hopefully be a upcoming article on a pretty major website.
And he said, you know, can you, can you point me to more resources, more people that are doing the kind of stuff that you're doing? And I said, well, um, there, there are. Uh, but it's, you know, there's, there's not a lot. It's, it's strange because it's seen as this sort of niche, but we're talking about representing 25% of the population.
Right.
Hmm.
Like that's not a niche. you know, imagine if you had a game world with only white people or, um, you know, or only men or, you know, or something like that. Like that would be weird. And so like, okay, a game world with only, you know, able-bodied, neurotypical people, you know, like, hmm.
Right?
I, I'm kind of interested in zooming out for a quick second and, and hearing a little bit about your origin story. So how did you get into, uh, specifically D&D or tabletop role playing games in general, which is probably, I'm guessing, what triggered this realization that there was just not enough representation. Uh, you know, within the modules.
So I've been playing D&D since I was 10, which would be 1982, and, after I got married, um, like I just got busy with other stuff and couldn't find a group that, you know, where it kind of fit into my schedule and stuff. And, and I kind of drifted away for about 20 years. And I mean, D&D was always part of who I was, even when I wasn't playing, you know, it was just, it was something that I would talk about and, and stuff.
And, um, then in 2019, I was, uh, I was, uh, a pastor at a church. And, we had a couple dozen, teens that, many of them were coming from, uh, disadvantaged, situations. And, um, and I was looking to just bring more adults into their lives. And I thought, you know, kids just need mentors and, and adults that care about them that aren't their parents and stuff. And I thought, you know, how do we, what do we do to, kind of bridge that, that gap and in a, in a very comfortable kind of way. D&D!
Like, I mean, it's, it's, it's equalizer. And, so I said, all right, let's do this. And I, bought a bunch of books on D&D Beyond so that I could share 'em, um, with everybody. And, that was kind of my first introduction to Fifth Edition. And, and I loved it. Second edition was the last thing I played before that with a little bit of, of 3.5 that I hated.
So, So then, um, yeah, we the first night you know, that we, we got together, um, 18 people showed up, ranged in age from 15 to, um, retired. So we, we kinda spread 'em out, two different tables and then quickly went to three tables. and just had a nice kind of age range and a range of different, um, you know, like experience with the game and, and stuff like that. And, two those groups are still going today, uh, even though I'm not a pastor anymore.
But I saw the, the powerful impact that it had. You know, I had, um, kids struggling with depression that, you know, they, they go, oh man, I just like trying to get through the week. And then I remembered, oh, it's D&D Monday. All right, I can get through the week . And, uh, you know, just seeing the, the relationships, I, wow, this is, this is really powerful. And it was something that I always knew, but then, you know, really seeing it in action.
I was working in a, a group home for a little while and, that's when I started, to work on, um, Limitless Heroics, where at first I just thought, you know, what, if, what if we just created some, some prosthesis, or, you know, other like assistive devices. Um, like I have a, a daughter with epilepsy.
And I said, okay, what if, if you had, a ring, uh, or some other magic device where, got three charges and you can either use those charges to stave off a seizure or to give you protection from lightning damage. but like you have to choose, like, well, okay, I can use it to protect me from lightning, but then I've got less to, you know, tell me with that, which is, you know, when you talk about assistive, uh, devices, technology, medication, all that kind of stuff.
It always has its, its trade offs. And, um, and I really wanted to do something like that, that, kind of gave, that, that understanding that there's no just sort of magic thing that makes things go away or, or all better or whatever. And so then, then I started looking around and I realized that. Okay. Well, what we're talking about though is, is creating assistive technology for disabilities or other experiences that don't actually exist in game.
Like this is a solution to a non-existent problem. Okay. So first we need to figure out how to introduce those experiences into the game, so that it works with that. And then, I thought, you know, so often disabled and, and neurodiverse, um, people are just not included, you know, period. And I thought, okay, well if I do something like this, I don't want anyone to feel excluded. And in hindsight, this may be where the ADHD kicked in, there was just like, well, let's do everything.
Let's do all the things. Let's research everything.
And, um, and so I did and, and so . So I, I broke it down by what we originally called symptoms. And then, uh, after some feedback, we changed it to traits because symptoms had a negative connotation. Because I noticed as I started researching it that, you know, there's so much overlap, any given diagnosis, um, may have multiple traits or experiences associated with it where there's overlap with other experiences.
Which I mean honestly is why things are misdiagnosed, because like, well, it could be this, could be that.
How do we get the medical community to look at and frame comorbidities this way? Because I'm already much more interested in having this conversation with this framing than I am, you know, in any other way medically than I have been before.
Well, when we sent it out, you know, to the backers, one of the people that got back to us said, the way that we had personality disorders broken down, we had 'em according to their, the way that they're grouped and, and diagnosed.
And they said, you know, in the latest DSM there's an alternate way of, of doing it where it's actually broken down into the specific, um, different traits instead of trying to group them and, and even has the different levels, just like the impact sense that, that you're using. And, and I looked at, I went, oh wow. This is perfect. And so, I mean, it was like four pages that we had to completely rewrite from scratch. Um, but it was so much better.
And, um, so yeah, it like took a couple extra days just to do that, but yeah, it was like, wow, why don't they do this with everything
It's so worth it though, because you really do a fantastic job of that, of, I mean, you start off by saying, look, I am one person. I am a white male. I am 50. I am this, I'm that. Uh, I don't pretend to know everything and there's no way I could know everything. I loved that, because this is also something that people are afraid of. They're afraid to talk about it.
I mean, my wife, who's profoundly deaf, she's either in a world, in a disability community where everyone is, is constantly aware, uh, which is amazing. Or, she's in the opposite world where everyone is very much aware of her and doesn't wanna say anything, doesn't wanna speak about it, doesn't wanna do anything. She rarely gets to be in a sort of a middle ground where it's like, I, I don't know anything, but I'm, I'm right there.
I'm man, woman person enough to admit that and to say it and look, just, it's, don't be scared of it. Just talk about it. Just, just learn about it. ask about it.
And Matt, even it, it makes me think about, you know, for, there was a time when you didn't want to label your own ADHD as a disability. But we've had many talks about that, that if we go by the actual definition of a disability, various points of neuro diversion like ADHD have absolutely fit the bill.
Um, and more so, you know, books like Limitless Heroics, you know, help a very wide range of people, you know, see themselves, uh, in here, rather than trying to define it as one specific thing, a disability is this single path. which
I mean, and, you know, and that's the whole thing. We're trying to, we're trying to just normalize it and, and I, I think a lot of, of, game developers, right? Or, uh, people just at, you know, uh, gaming groups and stuff like that, like I said, are, they're afraid that they're gonna do it wrong. So they don't do it.
mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
The exclusion doesn't make it better.
That you, that's a better way of saying what I was trying to say. Exactly.
Yeah, And when, when I, when word kind of started to get out in the community, that I was working on this, I mean, there was a lot of really negative reaction. Um, just this past weekend I ran into, I got hammered on Reddit. And, it was some, you know, very legitimate concerns about, okay, this could be done really poorly and has been done really poorly in the past. Like I knew, okay, I've gotta do this right. I'm committed to doing this right.
That's why we have what, 5, 5, 6, um, sensitivity readers on Limitless Heroics. Plus the whole team, uh, all of the, the writers, editors, artists, um, all disabled or neurodiverse, mentally chronically ill.
Yeah. Yeah.
But yeah, I just, the more we can kind of bring this conversation and bring this, you know, this awareness, out into the open, uh, the more people go, okay, well, you know, maybe this is something that I can learn more about. Yeah. And don't beat yourself up about like that you didn't know everything to start out with. Um, I mean, man, there's been so many things in my life where, uh, you know, I, I, I learned something and I go, oh, I should have known this a long time ago, but I didn't.
And, and like, I feel bad about it. And it's like, well, you don't know what you don't know. And so you just, you can only do the best you can with what you have.
It's very human way of approaching something we talk about both on this podcast and in our business of the blank page syndrome of I'm not going to take any steps forward because I don't know what I'm doing and I'm anxious about it. Versus take the steps forward, make it messy, make it ugly. But you know, that's the only way that progress is ever gonna be made. Uh, cuz you're not gonna
And then have your friends, yeah. Have your friends double check you and, and talk about it. And I mean, we did not start this podcast to, to necessarily, we didn't know whether there'll be a community. But the example of meeting you and, and being able to start, a Discord server and stuff to, to have people say, oh yes, my, my daughter has ADHD and I don't, and I don't get it.
And, and then for us to see this community grow and to see like how we are just by talking about it, opening all kinds of doors, all kinds of things. You know, I, I don't wanna dismiss the, the people on Reddit that are, that are chewing you out, because I've been there too, and I know how that feels and it feels really, really bad.
But you've got such a amazing attitude about it cuz it's, it takes a lot to develop a thick skin and to be able to put yourself into those shoes and say, okay, I don't necessarily agree. I don't understand why they're so angry, but I can, I can hear them, I can process what they're saying. And like you say, either offer them a chance to help make it better or say, okay, okay. Don't worry. I will still do my best to make it better.
And I mean, Dale, in this book and just everything about the website, you can see that. You can see that it just comes from such a, it's just such a great place, uh, where your, your head is. So kudos on every level for that.
Tell us a little bit about, because you have a new, uh, crowdfunding campaign, which was actually why you'd initially reached out to us. It went live a week ago. You're already at 92% of goal as of last I checked. Uh, tell us a little bit about, you know, how we've moved from Limitless Heroics, uh, into this new campaign and, you know, kind of what your, your hopes and dreams are there.
Yeah. So, um, so it's called Inclusive Artwork. And, um, the idea was that when, all right, so tabletop, gaming products run on very shoestring budgets. Um, you know, even, and, and some of the stuff came out, uh, during the recent OGL fiasco that, um, that you see these like multi-million dollar Kickstarters and stuff like that, and you go, wow, that's a lot of money.
But then once you see all of the expenses involved, depending on how they manage their, funds and, and, and stuff like that, uh, you know, some of those actually end up in the hole. And one of the big expenses with any kind of, even, even a tiny little, uh, thing you see on, on DM's Guild or something like that, um, art is expensive. Um, and, you know, just even a tiny little art piece usually is gonna cost you over a hundred dollars.
If you can find stock art, you can get a nice piece for maybe like two to six bucks, you know, maybe a little bit more for some, like a full page thing or something. But, um, you know, that really makes a difference and, and allows you to, to produce, uh, a nice quality product and still actually, you know, not end up in the hole for all your effort. And so I started looking around for disability, uh, representation in sort of D&D pictures.
and I looked on Drive Thru RPG and there were a total of, it was one artist created, uh, like, three, four pieces
Mm-hmm.
And. That was it,
right?
And, um, and I looked around in other stock art places and I couldn't find anything. And I went, wow. And, and so I thought, okay, well if, you know, if people want to include this kind of, of representation, whether it's in a publication or just at their game table, if you're a, a DM that wants to say, oh, here's what this NPC looks like. And you want to have disabled NPCs, you know, you just, you can't find that art. It just simply doesn't exist.
But I talked to some of our artists and I said, Hey, what would you think about if we did a, a crowdfunded stock art, campaign just to get some disability representative stock art available, and, um, and make it affordable. I said, I want you to be compensated properly, which is why I want to crowdfund this. but you know, I wanna make sure that, that people can get this affordably, uh, so that they can use it in their products, in their games, you know, wherever they want to use it.
and said, let's, let's make a chart so that you can just start kind of filling in. We're not gonna hit every, you know, combination, but, um, but at least to, so that we get a nice variety. Um, let's, uh, we put a list together of, of other things like, um, uh, assisted devices, uh, canes. Uh, we have someone made some prosthetic wings, and then just a, a handful of, uh, service animals and, and, and things like that.
So on, on Reddit, the thing that that got a lot of people really upset was that I said, neurodiversity representation. And they said, how do you represent neurodiversity and artwork? Because it's not, uh, like something that's
An invisible, yeah, yeah.
Right? And so like, how do you do that without resorting to tropes? And so, I thought, okay, so if I'm, you know, I'm, I'm like a fighter who's traveling from place to place. And so you have these long sort of monotonous, just walking or riding on some kind of mount.
And like how do you, how do you pass the day and, and I'm just imagining, okay, so I've got my, my sword by my side and it's got either like some kind of, um, you know, a little switch or a, you know, some kind of like fidgety thing or even uh, like a texture of some kind, you know, something where I can kind of slide and I'm like, that would be like, I would want something like that. That would be awesome.
And, and so, so it's the sort of thing that where we could have a sword, you know, that has something built into the handle for people that would appreciate something like that. It'd be subtle. And yet if you have a character, because stock art isn't about like, here's everything about this, but rather here's just a visual representation of one aspect of this character, which presumably in the supplement where this appears, that character would be more fleshed out.
But it's like, yeah, here's their sword, you know? And, um, you know, so I, I presented that idea and like they got really
Dale, are you, are you, are
got mad
you telling me that like my obsession with various textures and like constantly running my fingers over them is my ADHD. That's my stemming?
Oh, you didn't know that? Oh, no, we haven't. We haven't had that episode yet. Oh no. Mine is hems.
I love it. I love it when we learn new things.
It, it, I mean, it, it, it was a pretty recent thing, you know, that I figured out. especially when, um, when, when I was a pastor and like, I'm preaching, right? And, and to connect with your, uh, with your audience. A lot of times I would start out with, you know, like, have you ever had this experience? You ever do this or is that just me? You know? And, and, and it was sort of a rhetorical question, like, because the implication is is like, yeah, yeah, we all experience that.
And then I found out that a lot of the times people were like, nah, it's just you. And I went,
No, I don't know what
oh,
about. That's amazing.
Oh, you know, and, and now I, oh, that's adhd. That's, uh, oh, that's some of the, you know, depression that I am dealing with, or, you know, or something like that. And,
You, you mentioned before, not beating yourself up because that's so, so hard for us not to do. And especially when we're not diagnosed and we don't like, there's some joys in saying, oh wait, I'm unique. And also there's some frustrations in saying, oh, right, it's so much harder for me to do this than other people. It seems like.
but I mean, man, it does help though because, I mean, there are so many things where, um, like I'm just really bad at names. Uh, just remembering names and, um, you know, when, when you're a pastor and. There's, you've got like 300 people that all feel like if you don't know their name after, you know, a, a few years that you just must not care about them. And, um, and it's like, well, you know, you've been here for a few years. You, you ought to, you know, have names down by now.
It's like, well, not everybody wears name tags all the time. And, um, you know, and so there's plenty of people that I didn't learn their names the first few weeks, and then after that they stopped introducing themselves. And so, like, I'm not gonna ask 'em now. And, um, but you know, once I, I found out, oh, like that's an ADHD thing. Oh, so this isn't like some personal failing of mine. It's just neurological.
It's just the way that my brain is wired and it's like, it's, it's physical, you know,
Mm-hmm.
You know, I, I think, for the people that are giving you a hard time on the internet I, I understand why they, how they could get upset, but I love that you, I love your explanation of it. And at the bottom line, it it doesn't matter. You're, these people are making it for you. Yeah.
My, my thick skin is all scar tissue. So you, you get attacked enough that you just kind of, okay. No, I actually, I ran across a great, um, quote. From Victor Hugo that said something like, you have enemies. Well, that just means you have accomplished something meaningful or, uh, or innovative in your life, or something like that. Um, and, and, and that's just what goes with it. and, and then I found out that there's different versions of that quote out there.
And, the one that's quoted most often is the version that was written by Ed Greenwood in a Forgotten Realms book. Um, yeah,
I love that. Wow. Well, we're gonna put all of the, all of the links of course, in the things, and, and talk about this new crowdfunder. How much more time does it have?
Till the middle of March,
Perfect. Yay.
So people will have plenty of time to go visit the link that will be in the show notes once we post this episode, uh, to support the really cool work that Dale's doing. I, I think the way we're gonna have to end this episode is the way that we normally begin the episode, which is by rolling on our d100 table.
I love that. Yeah.
Oops. See, we were just, we were so excited that we forgot both our names and our own mechanics at the top.
Seems somehow fitting. All right. Got my shiny math rocks right here.
Yeah. Ooh,
95. And I heard some sort of tower too.
Super fun roll. Uh, Dale, what is your favorite cartoon?
Hmm.
Favorite cartoon. Oh, wow. So many to draw from. Well, it depends on, you know, like there's action ones and then there's comedy and stuff like that. All right. Um, I will go with Pinky and the Brain.
Yes.
Yes. Um, because I, you know, the, the whole concept of what are we gonna do tonight, same thing we do every night. Try and take over the world. And, um, that's kind of my goal in life. Of, not necessarily take over the world, but change the world. Um, it's like, what are we gonna do tonight? Same thing you do every night. Try to change the world. You know?
And, I've got a real long list of, of failures just like Brain, um, that for a, a very long time, kind of felt like everything I touch, explodes. But yeah, I'm just gonna keep trying.
This was so fun, Dale. Thank you so much for offering yourself up because we loved it.
And, and for the cause itself and for what you're doing and trying to make the world better, and, I mean, I don't wanna be too forward, but I feel like when you wrote, I really, we really did find a kindred spirit in what you're trying to do and you're doing it even you know, better and more publicly than we are. But you're an inspiration to us and, uh, we wanna continue this, this relationship as much as best we can.
Absolutely. I'm, I'm, I'm thrilled. And, uh, you know, , I, I found that even with my own show, um, Gaining Advantage that, uh, that I've, I've, I've gone back and, when I'm editing the, uh, the transcript, I, I find, oh, wow. I just really went off on a tangent there, didn't I? And um, and, and I realized that you know, my ADHD comes out in, in, in that. And, and so this, this whole idea that, neuro divergent people are more comfortable around other neuro divergent people.
For example, on, um, Limitless Heroics where we, we had, those kind of, of social traits like here's when, if you're around somebody else that, that has the same thing, then any kind of modifiers in that disappear. And, um, and, and, And so,
Yeah.
Because it's just, it's, it's not that you're incapable of, of communicating, you're just, you just do it in a different way. And, and so, just being able to, to be, on, on a show like this where,
Everything that you say is gold. Everything you say is
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's like I don't, it's like, oh, went off on a tangent. Oh, this fully expected, like, that's part of the show, you know? Um,
that.
We're on that tangent. Oh, man. I, I, I actually wrote down how much I love that mechanic and, and so I'm so glad that you brought it up, the adjustable. and it's so true. It's so true. Like to find your people and to, you know, be able to speak and say, Oh no. I truly understand. I am right there. That's so cool. That's so cool. Well, there's just so much we could keep chitter chattering about, but I know we have to let you go. thank you so much for being
Thank you Dale, and hopefully this is just the start of many conversations
Yeah,
all of these exciting initiatives.
Yeah. Thanks so much. It's so great to meet you guys in person and everything.
Same, same, same, same. And we're gonna, we're gonna plug this in every, every small corner that we have. And best of luck on all of that and, and everything in the future. Perfect. Thank you so much. Talk to you soon.
you, Dale. All right. Bye.
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