BONUS: Oxford High School Counselor's Testimony

Where you do it? Do you swear and refirm the testimony about to get as a place to help you that I do. Please stuff that you have to see. Please stay your name for like to start your first semester Sean sah Wn Hopkins hop ki ns go have past. Thank you? Sure? How are you? I'm here? Sir? Do you work with for the Do you work for the Oxford School District? I have been employed for the Oxford School District. I'm currently have meeting at this morning. Now I'd like

to direct your attention specifically to the fall of twenty twenty one. We Are you working with Oxford School District at that point? Yes? And what role? I was a counselor in Oxford High School And tell us please what general duties are associated with that particular role. I managed a caseload of about four

hundreds students. With that I was in charge of scheduling for those students, preparing them for life after high school by helping them kind of look through different potential job opportunities, caring for social emotional wellness for students, and being kind of just a general person who would be consistent throughout their time in high school working with them Okay, you said you have a case a little about four hundred students. Yes, how many students went to Oster High School that particular

time, There were approximately eighteen hundred students divided amongst four counselors. There were sixteen hundred, and then approximately two hundred in an early college program as well. So in November excuse me, November twenty twenty one, approximately how long had you been employed of Ashter High School? I started as an intern in twenty fourteen and was hired full time in Paul of twenty fifteen. Okay,

tell me a little bit of at your background place. I came out of college, graduated with a degree in youth ministry, worked as a youth pastor starting in two thousand and nine, and then did that and went back to school for a master's degree in counseling. I graduated with that actually walked in December of twenty fourteen, and started working in the high school thereafter. Now, you mentioned your role included helping students transition into post a secondary either education

or employment scheduling, as well as social emotional issues. Yes, would one of those roles take precedence? It would add and flow depending on the time of the year, But there was never anything that you did that was this is the most important thing, because to it was what student you were with at the time. To a senior going to college, helping them with that college application took precedence in that moment. To a student sitting in front of

you with social emotional needs, that took precedence in that moment. So did you have regular check ins with students or was it an as need a basis? It depended on what it was for. We did have regular meetings with students in regards to scheduling, but when it came to social emotional that was more of an as needed basis. Did your role as a counselor involved discipline in students? No? Okay, who took care of that? That would

have been the dean or our administration? Okay. And in November of twenty twenty one, who was the dean Nikki Jack right? And did you work with him a lot? No? I didn't. He was actually new to the district that year. So is there a reason why the counselor would be separate from the discipline of students. The counselor's role was to be a student advocate to remain on the side of the student through difficult situations oftentimes, to

give the students somebody that they could build that us and rapport with. Where the dean would be enforcing code of conduct? What code of conduct? What's that? The standards that are expected to be followed by students thanks a rule that would be a part of it. Yes, yes, Now, in the fall of twenty twenty one, was Oxford High School in person, hybrid or remote? Oxford High School was in person? We're all students and teachers

wearing face masks at that point, Yes, they were. In the fall of twenty twenty one, What sort of issues issues would you face with the students? Social emotional health? Social emotional health was definitely on our radar in the fall of twenty twenty one, coming out of COVID, coming out of time, being out from school, the anxiety that was associated at that time period. We saw a lot of issues for students, whether it be anxiety, whether it be depression. In a few cases, it was suicide attempts.

Now that year, did you encounter any students who actually had attempted suicide? I did? How many? And we score sturre? You fuiliar with the term suicidal ideation. Yes, I am familiar with that term. Would you please explain to us what that means. Suicidal ideation is checked to relevance. Believe this when this will testify that he indicated that the defendant son was

expressing signs of suicidal ideation that was expressed to defend it. Well, that was his belated at the time, right, So I don't know why what's suicidal ideation. Suicidal ideation is looking at themes, ideas, behaviors which could be associated with suicide. So when you take sadness, depression, anxiety,

those on their own aren't necessary suicidal. And when we look at them, we may see somebody who is not actively suicidal, that may not be expressing a date or a plan or a method, but we see themes that, if left unchecked, could be associated with potentially becoming suicidal. Okay, Now, as your role as a counselor at Oxford High School, as you double students who were expressing suicidal ideation separate from those who actually attempted suicidal. Yes,

could you put a number on how many dozens that was? You mentioned that there were four counselors for a school of around seventeen hundred eighteen nerds or so? How was it that each student was assigned to a counselor. Of the students who are not in the early college program, they were divided out alphabetically. Amongst their counselors was James Trembley's son, one of the students assigned your case load in November twenty twenty one. Yes, is James trembling court

today? Yes he is. He's please a pointing him to scratch something he's wearing today. He is stated at this table wearing a suit coat with the blue tie you're on. Who had the record reflect identification of defendin the record reflect in court identification in the defendant? James Punley, Sir, What is the first time that you would have interacted with James Trumbley's son. The first time that I likely interacted with him would have been scheduling during his freshman year.

Okay, So for contact November twenty twenty, when he was a sophomore, is that right? That is correct? Okay? So this would have been August or September of twenty twenty. No, when students are in eighth grade, they're scheduled at the middle school level. I may or may not have been in his classroom because it's divided out within their eighth grade classrooms, and we're not really we don't know the students at all at that point.

Okay, I would have done scheduling with him during his freshman year, approximately Dobruary of twenty twenty one. February twenty one, Yes, okay, those meetings were done for virtually and we're not in depth and we're only to discuss their next year's schedule. Do you remember anything about that meeting. If you can, I don't remember that meeting. I'm going to show you, first of all, if you recall when is the next time that you had any

interaction with the defended sun. I don't recall this particular meeting, but I know that there was a phone call in spring of twenty twenty one from a teacher to me, and then I called into the student's classroom to meet with the student. I do not remember that meeting. All right, I'm gonna show you what'spend if it is Exhibit one ninety eight. This is an email May thirteen, twenty twenty one, six in the afternoon, without telling it's

that person's name. Who was that person? Who sent an email without telling well, who does she work there at Oxford High School? She was an English teacher, okay, and the email is high when he get a chance, can you call the defendant son down and see how he's doing? He is failing my class and try to sleep all the time in the class. Thanks. That's the exhibit one ninety eight May thirteen, twenty twenty one.

You received this email, Yes, I did, okay, And the response from you at two o seven pm is I'll catch him before the end of the day. And then her response at two eight was thanks, just a little worried. Okay. Did you have any interaction with the defendant son because of the email I have through phone records, I called into his student's classroom and called him down to my office. I don't remember that particular meeting, okay, but at least your recollections that you would have had that meeting.

The evidence from everything suggests that I had that. Sure, that's fair. Did you contact either James or Jennifer Crumbley That I did not, okay, and why are whe It was a check in and it didn't raise to the level of concern where I would contact a parent now as a counselor with Oxford High School. Did you have a sort of method or protocol for when you determine when is a contact a parent. There isn't a set like there isn't

always a set level of when you do it. But when something becomes repeated or when something becomes more concerning, I am going to then involve a parent. Okay. Oor grades available to parents on a district ride basis. Yes they are. They are available through a system called Power School, which is available online. Okay. And that's the system that apparents can log in daily

if they would choose to as often as they would like. Now, the next a reaction you had with the defendants Sun would be September two, twenty twenty one. I did not actually have an interaction with the defendant Son. I received information about the defendant son. Okay, I'm showing you Exhibit one ninety nine. This is an email from a different teacher to September eight, twenty twenty one. Yes, okay, And why don't you go ahead and

read the email here that you've received. Hi, Sean, could you please touch base with student? In his autobiography Pome, he said that he feels terrible and that his family is a mistake. Our usual response is for sure, okay. That is September of the eight, twenty twenty one. Do you recall any interaction with the defendant son at that point? I do not. Okay. Now do you recall any meetings, check ins, or phone

calls from September to November of two and eight twenty one? No? So to give context on this, what I did was have a conversation with the teacher to gain a little more context of blood was meant by the email, and then the teacher filled me in that the student was actually joking with others in the class and that it was not at full level of concern that she hain't believed what she said. Okay, So if I'm correct, then you received the email, then you they contact with the teacher who sent you the

email. Yes, okay, and then the determination was made that no further involvement was required. Correct, I'm We'll show you what's Oh this is your response. Thanks for the heads up. I'm in senior meetings throughout the day, but we'll try and catch up with him. That was the same teacher September eight, twenty twenty one, nine fifteen. Yes, that is correct. This is People's Exhibits two hundred. This is November the tenth, twenty twenty one. The same teacher emailed you, Hi, Sean, the defense

Sun is having a rough time right now. He might need to speak with you. Do you recall that email? I do, okay, and tell us what you did when you received that email. I checked in with the student in a hallway in between classes to just let them know that if they were having a hard time that I was available to talk to you. And here's your response at four forty four pm. I'm sorry, I was in the meeting through the end of the day. I'll catch up with them.

So you recall that interaction with the defendants on yes, okay, tell us about that way. It was in between classes, I believe the morning after I'd responded to this email, and I just spoke to him briefly in passing to let him know that if he needed to talk for any reason, that I would make myself available for him. Okay. Did you make a decision to contact a parent at that point? I did not. Okay, you

did not contact a parent. I did not contact a parent. And tell us whis because I wanted to gain any information from the student and allow the student the opportunity to talk. Being sad isn't unusual. But if I had no information other than the student is sad, it's not something I would call a parent over and once the next time you've had any interaction with the defendant son. November twenty ninth. All right, I'm gonna show you what spit

minutes people two on one. This is an email from a teacher to mister e Jack and miss Fine and you eventually were cced on this email. I was forwarded this email. Okay, yes, The email says good morning night a student during first hour today, the defendant son, who was on his phone looking at different bullets at the end of first hour today as I was walking around the room passing out their essays, I didn't get a chance to

investigated a bit further since it was the end of the hour. Now that he's on my radar, I'm also noticing some of his previous work that he's completed from earlier in the year leans a bit toward the violent side. I can bring down these things later today during my fifth hour, prop if you would like that. And then it was at nine thirty four am, Yes, it was okay, And then your response was thanks Jacqueline, I'll be touching base with him as well. Yes, okay, and tell us what

happened with this birs. I ended up going down to Miss Fine's office. Who was on the initial email? So who's Mike? She was our restorative practices coordinator at that time, and she called the student down to her office to chat about the email that at then a since were you present for that meeting? I was present for that meeting. Okay, tell us about that place. The student came down towards the end of the second class of the day and Miss Fine led the meeting. I was there to be a support

for the student in case it became a disciplinary issue. But it was very cordial. We say support for the student in case it became a disciplinary issue. That's not for you to discipline, correct, That is correct. I would be there just as somebody who's able to be a comfort to the student during a time where they may potentially be experiencing miscipline. Now at that point,

was everybody wearing a COVID face mask? Yes they were, And in fact, have you ever interacted with the defendant sun without a COVID face mask. No, I did that, so you said, Miss Fine led the meeting. I'm sorry I interrupted you. Yes, Miss Vine did leave the meeting. She had a conversation with the student about the email that was received and led it in a way to see if the student would would bring any information available based on what the email was received where. She asked him,

were you looking at anything in class? Were you looking at what teacher? Were you looking at this information in the class to see if he would acknowledge that it was Ms Kanina who sent the email. He did. He was compliant during that meeting, and the conversation centered around how it was not school appropriate. The student understood and we stated he understood and was returned to class. Phone hall was in place to the student's mom from this fine, okay?

And we heard that last week during the trial, I was from Miss Fine to Jennifer Crumbling Venice correct, okay? And was that a voicemail that was left? It was left as a voicemail. Yes. Did the defendant son indicate that he received the gun for Christmas a few days before? No? So what happened next week? In retterms at that meeting, Yes, the meeting was over. He returned to class. How long was the meeting

five to ten minutes? Not in the realm of either discipline or your role as a counselor what does it take to move from a check into a phone

call home? It can be subjective. Oftentimes it would be if there's information we feel that it's necessary for parents to know somewhere it's obvious as if you feel the student may be a threat to himself, or if there's any potential that that could be a possibility if you have concerning information that the student is shared, or it could just be simply to confirm what a student has said

is true. So that's a phone call home. What does it take to actually call the parents in For me immediately, I would have to have a high level of concern that needed parental involvement. And when was the next time you've had any interaction with the defendive sum? Okay, so that would be Tuesday the next day? Yes, right, So let's talk about the thirtieth I'm going to show you People's Exhibit two hundred and two is an email on Tuesday, November thirtieth, twenty twenty one. You know, five am from

a teacher, So you Missfine, good morning. I know Jackie emailed you guys yesterday with some concerns about the defendant sun in our first hour class today, he's watching videos on his phone of a guy gunning down people that looks like it's a movie scene and not security footage slash a real event, but definitely still concerning the taking into account some of his other behaviors. Just wanted to keep the guys updated. Do you recall receive in that email? I

do remember when you receive it? Well, it was set at eight oh five. I believe I saw it approximately twenty to thirty minutes later. Okay, And what was your reaction when you received this email? My initial reaction was frustration of a student that just had a conversation about the school appropriate behavior, and I wanted to make sure that I met with him. Okay. So this is exhibit two of three. This is from another teacher to at

nine thirty two am again Tuesday, the number thirtieth. Here's the photo I took of his paper in case you needed with a picture of a math assignment. Now, what happened in between the time you saw this email at the Senate eight oh five to this email of Senate nine thirty two. So I was on the phone with other parents at the time I received the first email, and when I was done with that phone call at that time, mister e Jack actually was in my office as I was wrapping up the phone call.

Okay. He had been presented with the picture of the math assignment from the math teacher and wanted to make sure I was involved in that the special station. I don't know exactly what it was. I know he was showing a picture on a cell phone. Okay, I would believe it was the initial one, but I do not know that for a fact. I'd ever se solve the celt That's fair. So he wanted to involve me in a conversation with the student about the math assignment, and I wanted to talk to

the student about the email that had been sent that morning. I do not know if he was on that email, mister E Jack was on that email about the watching the video or not. Okay, So we saw we talked about the emails in that morning. We're referring to this email regarding the video. Yes, okay, So this is the information I had at the time that I was making a decision to meet with the student and mister e Jack

had the information that there was a math assignment was something on it. So at the time that you decided to meet with the defendant son, you hadn't even seen this picture yet. That is correct, okay, so go ahead. When I when mister Ejack came and mentioned that there was something going on with the student, I made the decision that I was going to go to

the math class and retreat the student. It's less concerning oftentimes for a counselor to walk into a class then a dean, because I could be talking about fifty different things with the student, so it just isn't going to raise suspicion for others. So I went to the class and asked the student if he could come with me, and I grabbed the math assignment as part of it. So he grabbed the manth assignment mostly who was gonna admit it is Exhibit

one twenty eight. Now, this math assignment looks different than the one that was emailed to you. Did you receive an explanation as to why I didn't know there was a difference initially because for the first thirty minutes all I had was the actual physical copy and that would be this an exhibit one twenty eight. Yes, okay, yes, So, as I was meeting with the student in the office, I had the email about what had been sent about watching videos, and I had the copy that is currently on the screen of

the math aside. I know, so I initially asked the student, what was what was it that you were watching in class? Why am I receiving an email from a teacher one day after I know you just had a conversation about what's appropriate in school and what's not. The student told me he was watching a video game on his phone. Not uncommon, also not school appropriate, especially given the context of what we had just had in the conversation.

So we had a conversation about making that good choice and making wise choices. And then I grabbed the math assignment and I put it in between the student and I. So, mister e Jack was actually in that meeting as well. He sat kind of off to my right. The student was across from me, across from my desk, and I asked him, okay, so we can talk about you know, making good choice is in the classroom, but let's talk about this. And I put the assignment in between us,

and what stood out to you when you saw it. Well, I wanted him to explain it to me. But some of the things that actually stood out to me the most for what was written on it, because I read something like the thoughts won't stop, and I could read help me underneath it being crossed out. Yes, I read a harmless act. I saw what looked like one body in my initial concern, which this students drawing some things

that lead me to think he might hurt himself. So I asked him to explain what's on here, because I didn't want it to just be me interpreting what people would. I wanted to hear what he had to say about it. And he told me initially that it was a video game that he liked, like drawing video game characters, liked liked that area of that entertainment, and that he wanted to go into video game design. So that I told him, Okay, you can tell me that, but let's explain these words.

Here. Here you write your thoughts won't stop. Here you write harmless act, and here you write I have a look at I think it was like my life is useless or something like that, where it crossed it all. Yeah, And I said that doesn't sound like a video game to me, so I say it. Then you didn't accept his explanation of the video game not in totality, No, because I wanted to gain more context. So did you make a decision at that point to do something? Well?

As he continued talking, he then started talking about things that were going on in his way. What do you mean you're going on? Well? He mentioned that school's been tough during COVID, that a family member had passed recently, a family dog had died, he said, a friend moved away, and as he was talking, I just kept hearing all these themes of sadness. What was it? Demeanor like appropriately sad? It? Natch? What

he was saying nice? And so at that point I told him, Okay, this is a lot that you've got going on, and I want to make sure that we get you help. And so I told him, when I hear all this, what I do is I'm gonna call a parent. And I asked him, is there a parent you'd rather I call? He told me Mom would probably be easier to get hold of. So I called Mom first and left the voice fail. This would have been approximately twenty to

twenty five minutes after the meeting started. So at this point I just decided that it was enough that I wanted to involve a parent. All right, you said you called Mom first and left the voicemail. I did. Did you also call the defendant, James Brumlin? I did, and it was right after leaving a voicemail. I'm not entirely sure if he answered or not. I think he did, but it was almost like it was almost like there was just air on the other end, so I wasn't able to leave

a message or anything. Mom then called me back a few minutes later and we talked for I would guess five or six minutes. She was on speakerphone with her son for a brief part of that conversation, and I asked her to please be able to come in that I had some concerns I wanted to go over. I texted her, did you specify those concerns? Well? I texted her a picture of the math assignment, and by that time I also then received the email that I think you put up earlier, so of

the math assignment. By this point in time, this was nine thirty two am that miss Morgan Senate was the defendant sent already in your office at that point, yes, okay. And then did you have a chance to look at this picture as well? I looked briefly at it, but I was already on the phone with mom at that point. Okay, this is Exhibit one thirty. This is what we referred It was the original drawing. Okay, And you said you were on the phone with Jennifer Crimley at that point.

Yeah, so I emailed her then the original drawing as well. Okay, so you sent this to the student's mother, yes, And did you have a chance to look at this I did look at it. Most of it confirmed what I thought was under the scribble outs, and I also noticed some words worth added. Okay, what words stood off thea What do you mean when you said words were added? What did you notice on the one

where he added words? I know he added like oiches rocks or we're all friends here, which I kind of took as just a fifteen year old writing things. It didn't So you're referring to this Exhibit one twenty eight some additional word, Yes, he added video game. This is Oliches rocks. I think I loved my life so much? Was added things that were facetious, and that was after he was seen with this. Is that correct? Is

it? It was after he created this? Yes, it existed and its form is Exhibit one to thirty prior to the edits that I had seen it on the paper. Now, at some point, did both James and Jennifer Crumbley come to your office? Yeah, So I ended up being on the phone with mom for that five to six minutes. She stated she was going to try and get Dad to come to the office and she was unable to. And so during that point we had about twenty minutes where I was sort

of just waiting. During that time, I showed the student the list of resources I was going to give to his parents. Tell me about that place. It was about a three page list of just different mental health services in the area. On it it gave contact information for them, It gave the specialization areas for them, and it gave oftentimes insurance if it was accepted, if they worked without insurance, anything that they would work with pavement plants.

So I wanted him to see what I would be providing his patents. Was the defendant son with you from the point that you brought him out of class to the point that James and Jennifer from the arround to school. Yes, okay? And approximately how long was that? It was approximately an hour and a half, so around I want to say a little before ten, probably like nine nine fifty. I received another call from Mom stating that she was unable to get a hold of Dad and that she would be coming it.

Okay, Now, if I told you that we saw a surveillance video that indicated you welcome them, both James and Jennifer in your office at ten forty am, does that sound right? Yeah? That sounds about right. Now. What was your expectations of what was to happen at the end of that meeting? My hope is that they were going to take him and either it take him to get help or even just to take him to let's have a good day, Let's have a let's have a day where we just spend time

with you, where we are to take him out of school? Yeah? Did you believe that he could be left alone? At that point? I didn't want him left alone. I didn't want to make that decision that he was okay to be left alone. So that's why I stayed with him for as long as I did until I had parents there. Did you express to the student or his parents that you identified suicide ideation? Yes, I said

that the student. When I asked the student if he had a plan, if he was a threat to himself or others, the students said his words were something to the effective I can see why this looks bad. I'm not going to do anything. So I had all of this information, but the student was saying he wasn't going to be doing anything. So when the parents came in, I went over all of the things I had seen with over my time with the student that he expressed the sadness over over a dog passing.

He expressed that COVID has been hard, that a family member passed, that a friend left. He expressed an argument the night before with parents. Did he tell you details about the argument? Did he tell you that he received the gun a few days ago? No tell us about the meeting. When James and Jennifer arrived, it was initially odd to me that they were both there because I wasn't expecting that, but not to the point where I

asked anything about it, just it was unexpected. Both parents followed me back to my office. The student that was the one time he was in there by himself. Was when I went out to greet the parents and brought them back, and the student and his dad sat across from me and moms fat in the chair kind of diagonal from me, and mister e Jak had left once we had confirmed parents were coming, and he returned for that portion of the meeting. So really I felt like parents were confirming what I had said

without giving additional information. Well, hang on, let me let me ask you about that. You say confirming without giving additional information. I want to make sure I understand what you mean by that. So, first of all, you've had these kind of meetings of parents in the past, I have. Okay, when you say confirming, is that something that would typically happen

to these meetings? It could, but oftentimes you might gain additional information, as you know, as a school employee, I had ninety the nice Okay, she's fifteen years old. So did James or Jennifer give you any additional information? No, So tell me what you did and what what was said. So to start off the meeting, I asked mom if she had received if she had received the phone call from the previous day, and then those events were true. She said, yes. I talked about how how the

student had expressed these different areas of sadness. That is, dog passed, Yes, family member had passed. Yeah, friends left and all of those were just confirmed. Is there any details about the circumstances of the friend leaving and the impact on their son. I didn't know any details about it. They didn't share it with you. No, I'm sorry, I interrupted again to that. So, so a lot of it was I felt like I was bringing information and they knew it, but I wasn't. I wasn't gaining

information. So at that point, I know, I handed Mom the list of resources and and said I'd like him to get support outside of here. I'd like him to get help and have somebody that he can talk to you. And Mom made mention that they would, but they couldn't right away. So I told Mom that I wanted him to get help as soon as possible today, if possible, And it was told that wasn't possible. Told by James Jennifer by Jennifer, James at that time, to my memory, was

talking with his son. I remember it. Yes, he was looking at the math assignment with his son, Masimon. We're talking about the hard copy, So we're refering to this if it why eight? Yes, okay? And he was talking to his son and mentioned it. You know, you have people you can talk to. You can talk to your counselor you have your journal. We talk and it felt appropriate at that time. But at that point did he share any details about anything you had discussed? I don't.

I don't recall any additional details now. But my concern at that point was that there wasn't any action happening. When his wife said the cants, did he protest that? No? So you said you got a concern that no action was happening, So what did you decide to do? Well? I told them that with getting help, I said, I wanted to see movement on forty eight out within forty eight hours, and then I'd be follow

If the shooting didn't occur, what was your plan? I was going to meet with the student the next morning and see if they had had conversations about it, if they had made some plans to move towards some sort of therapy. And if that didn't occur, what were you going to do? I was going to call child protective Services. Now, generally speaking within Oxford High School, is it preferred to send the school the student home when an issue

arises or keep the student at school. I'm not sure I understand what you mean with that. So you didn't force even call the police. As a counselor, I can't send a student home, okay, But you didn't want him to be alone. I didn't want him to be alone. So in this context, my thought was when parents were saying they had to return to work, I wanted to make sure the student was with people because my concern was him, was his well being and his ability to be safe and cared

for. Did James crumbly elaborate at all on the fight they had the night before? No? How long did they tell us how being ended? Jennifer asked if they were done, which felt abrupt, and during that time the student had also expressed him Christy, he wanted to go back to class. I asked, mister e Jack if there was any like from a discipline standpoint, is there anything you need to do? Is there any reason he can't

go to class? And I was told no, So I wrote in the past to return to his end of this story, okay, and Jennifer asked, are we done here? Did James protest it all. No, so tell us what happened, as you wrote the student of past. I told the student that I cared about him and wanted him to know that. I just wanted didn't know that. Did the other James or Jennifer say that to him? No, I'm sure, Hoppens. Do you have any knowledge of

firearms? Very limited? Would you know what this firearm depicts? What kind of firearm? I can't done? Is that the extent of your knowledge? What about this? This bullet here? A bullet, just a bullet And neither James nor Jennifer said anything about the firearm or than the bullet. No. Now you indicated that you passed on a three page list of resources for mental health providers. I did. I'm gonna show you a screenshot of one

thirty seven here and James's hands appear to be that list of resources. Objection. I would say that false for speculation. I don't think mister Hopkinson knows what's in Mister Keimley sands, do you know what? I know that? It's multiple ages of paper and I handed in the stable to the page piece of paper. Okay, did you see the ing Jennifer Permley stands. I do not well a phone and something in a right hand, but I'm not sure. Maybe I see it phone. How yours is a high school counselor?

How many times have you had to call a parent in and tell the either mom or dad or guardian that you identified suicidal ideation in your child? Fifteen to twenty over a dozen any of those meetings did a parent fail to take her child home? I can't think of any now. Now you indicate

that this was a confirming responses from James and Jennifer Crumbley. In those other meetings where parents sharing information, oftentimes, yes, Oftentimes parents would come in and want to pain in a more complete picture of their student, of their situation. Oftentimes all the time, I feel parents know their kids better than I do. I have. If all I ever did was meet with students, I might have two hours a year with each student. Do you rely

upon a parent for that information? Absolutely? I've gone further. Think it is plus yes, sir Enna, thank you. Good morning, mister Hopkins, good morning. I'm going to go back to your first interactions with mister Crumbley's son. I'm not going to use his name, so if for some reason the way that I'm referring to his son confuses you. Just let me know or we're using too many he's, he's. Does that make sense?

Okay, I'll do that, thank you. So your first interactions with mister Crumbley's son were in the fall of twenty twenty, well, fall of twenty twenty. No, it would have been the spring of twenty twenty one. Okay, So it would have been before the twenty twenty one school year. Yes, and that was for planning his class schedule. Is that correct? That would have been the main reason that we would have met with avery freshman.

And then I had that email that was displayed earlier from his English teacher, the May of twenty twenty one email. Yes, And after that May of twenty twenty one email, you didn't specifically recall having a meeting with mister Coumpley's son. I don't have memory of that meeting mail you. In fact, he went back and reviewed your records and determined that they're appears so have been a phone call that you called him. You called him down to your

office. I called into his class and called him down to mail. Okay, but you don't remember ever meeting with him. I don't remember the meeting. You did not contact mister Cumpley or his wife after that May of twenty twenty one email. That is correct. So other than discussing his mister Cumpley's son's class schedule with him and then maybe meeting with him in May of twenty twenty one about that email, you don't recall any additional interactions with mister Cumpley's

son before November tenth of twenty twenty one, that is correct. In September of twenty twenty one, you received another email from a teacher which was displayed. I believe it was Exhibit one ninety eight, sorry one ninety nine, which would be the an email from a teacher talking about a poem. Am I understanding that correctly. Yes, that he had a school a class assignment of writing an autobiography poem, and he had said to that teacher he'd made

some concerning statements in that poem. Yeah, So if I can give a little more context to this, this was actually a Spanish class, so the poem wouldn't have even been in English, Okay, so he used words in Spanish. That is my understanding. After talking to the teacher and the Spanish teacher had concerns about the Spanish words that he used. That is my understanding

based on an email. I also followed up with the teacher and gained further context about it, right, And as a result of gaining further contexts, you were not concerned because the teacher lowered the level of concern for me. Yes, So even though your response that you were going to catch up with mister Crumbley's son, even though that's in the email, you didn't actually meet with him because you had the conversation with the teacher. That is correct.

Again, you didn't notify James Crumley or his wife about the teacher's concern in September twenty twenty one. No, I did that, and you didn't forward them the email, and that was because in your mind, based on the information that you had, there was nothing to be concerned about. Well, I just gained further context from the teacher and made the decision based off of

that information and had no concerns. I think that you're putting those words in to make it a little more extreme, But what I would say is I gained context and made a decision based off of that, And if you had been concerned. If you had had sufficient concern, you would have reached out

to mister Crumpley or his wife. If it had raised the level of concern where I felt I needed to, I would have guessed so that on November tenth of twenty twenty one, you received another email from a different teacher from the same teacher. Oh, thank you for correcting. It was the same teacher. She asked you to check in with mister Cumpley's son on November tenth. She said he might need to speak with you, and she said that she believed he was having a hard time. She said, he's having a

rough time right now. He might need to speak with you the next day. You responded and indicated that you would check in with him later that evening, after the school day was over. I responded, So you obviously couldn't have met with him that day because the school day was over. Correct. She sent the email at the end of the school day, and I responded, a proxident two hours after the end of the school day. So you couldn't have met with him that day because the school day was over. Is

that fair? He would not have been there, so you would have met with him the next day, Yes, And do you believe that you did meet with him on November eleventh? Yes, you spoke with him in the hallway. Yes, I caught him in between classes. You simply told him that you were available if he needed to talk. Yes. There was no further discussion with him at that time. No, because the way that email

was written was that you might need to speak with you. So I just wanted to let him know that there was an opening if he wanted to speak with him. And having a rough time, like the teacher indicated in her email on November tenth, having a rough time, is it necessarily something that raises red flags? Is that fair? I didn't have any other contexts as to what was going on, and I just wanted to offer a chance for

the student to speak if he needed to do so. And his response, if you recall, something along the lines of okay, thanks, okay, And I'm not asking to quot him because I don't know if you remember, but it was not an uncommon response. Does that make sense? Yeah, it was a normal response given the situation. You did not email James Crumbley or his wife about that November tenth email, correct, I did not email them, Now, or the November eleventh brief meeting with their son. Correct,

you did not forward that email to mister Crumpley or his wife. I did not. So then the next interaction that you had with mister Crumpley's son was on November twenty ninth of twenty twenty one, and that was a Monday, if you recall, yes, that would have been a Monday. You were forwarded another email that was sent to Nicholas K. Jack and Pamela Fine. Is that correct? Yes? I was. And this third email, this is the third email you've received from a teacher since the school year began.

If you recall, yeah, said what is that September of twenty one, November tenth of twenty twenty one, and November twenty ninth of twenty twenty one. The email advised that mister Cumpley's son was looking at bullets on his phone at the end of class. Could I see the email? Yes, He's good. Two to one. This is just the forward, so it doesn't have the actual You were advised that that was the concern was that mister Cumbley's son was looking at bullets on his phone. I believe that to be

true. But this email you have on the screen. Isn't the one that says that. Correct, The email doesn't say it, but you you were aware that that's why the teacher was concerned, and that's why the teacher was I don't know if it's an email. That email was displayed earlier. I think it was sent to mister E. Jack in this Fine that was the one. Oh there there we go, thank you. Yes, so this is the email I was forward forward ad and it just was at the end

of the hour. The teacher didn't a chance to really find out what was going on, but it just glanced at it and had seen that. And I'll leave that up in case you need to look at it. Thank you. So you were aware that on November twenty ninth of twenty twenty one, at the time you received this forwarded email, that mister Cumpley's son was looking at bullets on his phone in class. Yes, after reading this email, I was aware at some point, Well, let me go in order.

Shortly after this email, you then met with mister Cumpley's son in Pamela Fine. Yes, and you met in your office or miss Fine's office. It was in Miss Fine's office and you were there just as support, but miss Vine did most of the talking. Was that fair? Yes? I would say that was fair. And miss Vine talked to mister Cumpley's son about looking at bullets on his phone. She did. She actually asked him to describe why would a teacher be contacting right now? And the student was forthcoming and

what had happened in class? He was forthcoming, He was honest to your knowledge, right our knowledge. He shared what we had in the email. He told you what class he was in looking at bullets. He said he was looking at bullets, and he even explained why he was looking at bullets if he recalled. He said that he and mom had been at the shooting

range over the weekend and he was researching what they had done. And if you recall, Missfine acknowledge that what mister Compley's son was doing may not have been appropriate, but there really didn't seem a lot of concern. Would you agree with that? Well, the concern was that it wasn't appropriate, and that the concern was then placed by expressed by placing a phone call home. So the concern was the appropriateness of the behavior in class. Yes, And

at that point a voicemail was left for Jennifer Compley. Yes, you said that. If you recall, mister Crumpley's son was understanding during the meeting. He didn't fight with you about it. He listened and eventually he went back to Quins. Yes, I would agree with that. Later in the day he received an email from the same teacher who expressed that some of mister Crumbley's son's prior work may have been a little violent. No, that was the same email. It's in the same email it is, or was it in

an email sent later in the day. Now it's in the same email from that pointing the one from the one that was originally sent to mister e Jack and miss Fine. Yes, that was later forwarded to you. Yes, you didn't see any of those assignments prior to meeting with mister Crumbley's son. That is correct. If you have seen those assignments, it probably wouldn't have changed your approach to the meeting. Correct, because the approach was really more

about the approach intos of the behaviors. I mean, it's a hypothetical of what we would have done. We acted on the information we had, and the information that you had was that he was looking at bullets in class, yes, and looking at bullets is not necessarily something that is in itself concerning to you, correct. I think you're kind of trying to put it in

like a pigeonhole. It was trying. We were trying to gain context of what was going on in the situation, because a student looking at something on their phone at the end of the hour is different than a student brazenly doing it throughout the entirety of the class. But our conversation was is this school appropriate or not? And in fact it's if you recall your position was at

the time, it wasn't necessarily concerning because he was honest about it. It seemed kind of a commonplace thing given the Oxford community in the Golden the gun culture in the Oxford community, and things of that nature that you took into a factor. We took a lot of things into a factor, including the fact that we come first of how it was not school appropriate yet and that's why a phone call was placed home. As I just indicated, the Oxford

area was and may still be a hunting community. If you know, okay, I'm asking people hunt who live at Oxford in twenty twenty one, you would classify it as a hunting community. I would say that there are people who are hunting as activities with guns were a common hobby in twenty twenty one, if you know, I mean there were people who had guns as a hot Yes, it was common for students to be interested in guns. I'm sure there are students who are interested in guns and to go to the shooting

range. Yes, students would go to the shooting range. So so I'm just gonna object to make sure that your witness is speaking with personal knowledge of the peers councils asking because think it's general speculation. Well, if you know, if you know, you're not from believable the gun your gun to yourself. It sounds like so just stick you know, Okay, students going to the shooting range isn't viewed as unusual or concerning in and of itself. Is

that correct? I think that you're taking that You've got to have context with all of these, right, And I'm just asking in and of itself, a student going to the gun range, to the shooting range is not concerning in and of itself. It depends on the context, because the student weightlifting is not concerning it and itself unless they're doing it inappropriately, right, so

you're taking something that's abroad state they can have a wide context. And on November twenty ninth of twenty twenty one, mister Pumpley's son told you and miss Fine that he had gone to the shooting range with his mom on the weekend before correct sad in itself is not concerning to He did it in no way it was appropriate, you would agree? And I and can you refresh my memory? How long were you in the Octionford School district as of twenty twenty

one, seven years? And in that seven years you learned that many households had firearms in the household? That would you agree with that? If you know what is many? There are people the times, there are people who owned okay, and you as a counselor of the school, where you were aware of that, Yes, it wasn't completely unheard of. It was also

relevant when looking at the situation. It was also relevant for you to note the fact that mister Crumbley's sun was not hiding that he was looking at the bullets, or didn't hide it from you when he spoke with you and Miss Vine. Well, he didn't lie about what had happened and that was important to you. Yes, as a result of the meeting with Miss Vine, with you and Miss Fine, mister Cumpley's son was not disciplined, it's my knowledge. No, there was a phone call place to his mother, which

we've talked about. There was a voicemail left. You did not yourself call mister Crumbley. I did not. You did not forward him the emails that you received. I did not. You don't know if that voicemail was ever shared with mister Cumbley. Is that fair? Well, we talked about it in our meeting the next time, okay, on the twenty ninth. You don't know if mister Cumbley was ever made aware. I wouldn't have no way

of that, right, You wouldn't know. You responded to the situation of mister Compley's son looking at bullets on November twenty ninth on his phone with the information that you had. I did, and from what you knew at the time, other than the behavior being inappropriate for school, you didn't see anything else that might have been concerning well, and I want to make clear I wouldn't be the one doing discipline in this situation, So and I'm asking in

let me clarify, I'm just asking from a counselor's perspective. I'm not asking for discipline. You clarify that mister Eject did discipline and Missay, so could you repeat your question? Yes, as a counselor on November twenty ninth of twenty twenty one, you didn't see anything overly concerning about what we've just talked about with looking at bullets on the phone. That the focus was more that looking at bullets on his phone was inappropriate for school. So are you asking

from mental health standpoint? Did I see anything concern Not? Really, I don't know that you're a mental health professional. I mean you're a school counselor and you do have some train an education at that. I'm not asking for

you to go anywhere outside of your education and experience. Just as a high school counselor, sitting in Miss Fine's office with the information that you had, you didn't see a bunch of red flags we've talked about and let me ask, let me give you some let me go over it a little bit. You've discussed that you know that there are households in Oxford that have firearms in them, right, Yes, there are. You know that people in Oxford hunt, some do. Yes. You know that students are interested in guns.

You know that students flick at bullets. We had one student who did that in that situation yes day. You know that that student, mister Cumpley's son, was honest about looking at the bullets when he was asked about it to the extent of our analogy, Yes he was. He told you that he'd gone to the shooting range with his mom, yes, the weekend before. Yes, that those things were not concerning to you. Taking those things in a vacuum is why we called home and called home and she said we

had this meeting. We told him it's not appropriate. He understands. No need to call back unless you have questions. Right. I don't remember the exact voicemail that was left. The voicemail was not we need you to come to school right now, so my memory was not. But again I don't remember the exact voicemail that was left. On November thirtieth of twenty twenty one,

you received another email. It's this one Exhibit two oh two, which was from another teacher who was talking about mister Cumpley's son looking at a video of a guide gunning people down. Correct. Yes, so this teacher was a co teacher and that same first hour class from the day before. Yes, okay, you review that email on November thirtieth of twenty twenty one. I did you made the decision to you? Didn't? I think you said

you didn't see it for about twenty or thirty minutes. I didn't. I was on the phone, and I actually responded to it while I was on the phone, and then upon ending that conversation, was going to go meet with the student. And this is the fourth email that you've received about mister Crumbley's sun since the beginning of the twenty twenty one school year. Yes,

the third email in two days? Uh? Is it? You would have received the I think it's the second two days, the November twenty ninth email about the bullets, and then you do you recall receiving a follow up email later that day? It was a confirmation of that. Okay. Yeah, so this is the second one with additional actors. Okay, the second one on a different a different issue is that first Okay, the teacher described the video as a movie scene but not a real event. Yeah, she said,

it looks like it's a movie scene and not security footage. Slash the real. With that, she expressed some concern based on quote some of his other behaviors. Yeah, but definitely still concerning when taking too account some of his other behaviors. Yes, you did not forward this email to mister Crumbley after you received it? Well, no, but over an hour later I called him into the school. Right, and you decided after receiving this email

that you were going to meet with mister Crumpley's son. Yes, Approximately an hour after receiving this email, mister Ejack advised you of another report made by a teacher about mister Cumpley's son. Yes, as I was about to go and call down his son, mister Ejack actually came into my office with information about the math assignment and that there were some concerning comments and markings on the

math assignment. I didn't have any context to alt the math assignment. I just knew there was something something about At that point, you hadn't seen it. You were just going off of what you were being told. Is that fair? That is fair? Okay? So you went to mister Crumpley's son's classroom. I did you called him out of class. I walked to his classroom. Yeah. When I called out, I meant like at his classroom.

He went and got him. Yes, Okay. While you were there, you also obtained a copy of the worksheet that we've seen I did, and that would have been what I called the modified worksheet. That would be the one that had the thing scratched out and the words added that you identified and things like that. Yes, you and mister Crumpley's son went back to your office where Nicholas Ejack was waiting in your office. If you were called yes, that is correct. It was at that point or shortly thereafter that

you called mister Crumbley's wife approximately twenty minutes into our meeting. Yes, so you met with with mister Crumbley's son for about twenty minutes. It was during that meeting that mister Crumbley's son told you about his family we're passing away. He did, about his dog passing away, Yes, about his friend moving away, yes, talked about COVID being hard on him. Yes, he had a hard time with virtual school, if you remember he did say that.

Yes, And you asked about the drawings and the marketings and the things on the assignment that you had in front of you. Yes, I asked him to clarify what was going on in the assignment, but I also talked about the email I had received and I had also talked about in context of the conversation we had yesterday. Okay, so some of the meeting was about

inappropriate behavior. Is that fair? It started off with a conversation about that because I didn't know what was on the phone, so I asked him what he was watching, okay, And then we talked about, Look, we just had a conversation yesterday about appropriate behavior in class. This feels like the same thing that we're dealing with here. And after we had talked about that for a few minutes, I brought the math sheet out and asked him to

start explaining to me what was on there. And when the creshpaner was asking you questions, you said, initially when you got that email around eight, well when eight thirty, when you saw the email from the teacher, Initially you were frustrated, If I could use the word frustrated, I was frustrated, and it was kind of like we just talked about this yesterday. Does that kind of explain what you were feeling at the time. Yes, I would say that it was we just had a conversation about this. Why am

I hearing about something similar again? So you talked a little bit about that, and then you talked about the homework or I'm sorry, the math assignment or the math paper that we saw, and you asked for some more context about what was on the paper. Well, initially I asked him to just describe what was on the paper, and he started talking about how it was

a video game that he liked designing them, like drawing them. And then I asked for him to explain the words on it, because I didn't feel those were as easily explained by simply stating, well, it's a video game. And in fact, you said that you didn't want to give contexts to his words. You didn't want to assume what he meant. You wanted to hear from him what those words meant. Yes, and he gave context.

He did his That's when his demeanor changed from kind of being like what do I have to say to get out of here and just stop getting trouble too, I like he became sad and you you expressed you use the word appropriate to describe his level of sadness based on what he was telling him. The way he was acting matched what he was saying. It's to me, it's sad if a family dog dies or a family pet dies. It's sad if a relative dies or a friend moves away. So his demeanor matched what he

was saying. And again, in and of itself, being ad is something that you talked about, you saw an increase of after COVID and your students. Do you recall that, yes, that, and that that was not again in and of itself, and I'm not asking you to I'm not trying to trick you by asking these questions. I'm not trying to give meaning to something that isn't there. I'm asking you, based on the information that you had at the time, you felt that his sadness was an appropriate level of

sadness, not overly concerning. We'll talk about a little bit more, but the sadness itself was not necessarily overly concerning, beyond wanting him to talk to someone. Appropriate and concerning are two different things. Okay, when I say appropriate, I mean it matched with what he was saying. Something can be an appropriate response but also be heavily concerning, right like, I don't know a good example off this half of my head, but what I'm saying is

his mean or matched with what he was saying. But to me, it was concerned, which is why I called parent, right, exactly why you called parents. So if he had been sitting in front of you and talked about these losses and it was kind of like chasm mcdeal, it's not a big deal, that could also be concerned. It would be a different type of concerns. If he said I lost the top to my pen and was crumbling in pieces and falling into a call of tears on your floor, that

would be concerning, but for different reasons it would be memorable. So the losses that he experienced, you agree. I think we can all agree we're significant. I think when taken in totality. Yeah. Yeah, And he was showing you that he was sad. Yes. He was also expressing during

this meeting that he had concerns about missing class. If you recall he did, especially as after classes changed, which is a normal thing, he expressed that he was worried about missing his chemistry class, which was his next class after the math class. So during that time, mister e Jack went and retrieved his belongings and went to go get homework for his chemistry class. And

I'm gonna go over that in just a second. Two. But if you recall, and I don't know if you pay close attention to your students attendance, but if you recall, mister Crumpley's son had pretty good attendance. He did. He did miss school a lot, No, he did not. If you recall, his grades weren't great, no, but he was on track for graduation. He was passing. Oh, I believe he was failing one class at the time and it was not my launch. So he was

close to passing all of his classes. One of them he was failing, but close to passing. Yes, So his attendance and his grades obviously were not overly concerning to you. I wouldn't say overly concerning. But a student who cares about class and want to you know, he had expressed an argument the night before and wanted to go to class, had expressed you know,

the frustration of missing school during COVID and just that entirety. So it wasn't strange at that point that the student not want to miss class, right, That wasn't odd to you? At all given his history. Now, if he were somebody who missed school all the time and was failing all his classes, and he's like, I really want to be in school, I really want to do my homework, you might feel a little differently as after.

I would say it was in line based at the information I had. Okay, And you said that after mister Crumpley's son expressed these concerns about missing class, that mister Ejack went to his the first hour class to get the back back. It would have been in his second hour class where his belongings were. Yes, so he went mister ejac went to his second hour class to

get his belongings and brought his belongings back to your office. Yes, This would have been after we had confirmed parents for coming, probably a little after ten am. He, if you recall, began working on schoolwork waiting for his parents to get that is that is my recollection. Yes. Also, if you remember, while you were waiting for his parents, who also began

watching some videos with him. Yep. So he had expressed different things he wanted to do after high school, and he had expressed wanting to go into video game design. I know that when students are waiting for parents, it can be high anxiety time for them. So I wanted to try and engage him as best as I could. So we actually watched videos from the O Tech the Technical Center campus where they had programs that were centered around what he

wanted to do. So we talked about what it would look like to do an application for them, because he was a software and he would be able to apply for the next school year. And so I did that one to kind of just bridge that time be high anxiety. And two, if you had any inkling that a student may potentially be displaying any signs of suicide or suicidal ideation, getting a gauge of future plans is crucial. So I wanted to get that gauge as well. And he did that, and he picked

out some videos to watch. Is at fair? And you picked them up? Yeah. You also asked him during that time if he was a fret to himself or anyone else. I asked him that earlier, and that is

part of your assessment of the situation. Is that fair? Well, it was a question I felt needed to be asked based on what I had and based on your education, your experience, and your training, you know that that's an important question to ask, and that situation was and he basically said, I know this looks bad, but I'm not going to do anything. Yeah. It wasn't said as flippantly, but it was he understood, like, I can see why this looks bad. I'm not going to do anything.

Okay. So although you had concerns, you also had a student in front of you reassured you that he was not going to hurt con Celeb for anyone else based on what he told me. Yes, mister Cumbley and his wife arrived at approximately ten thirty. I think that there's a there was some time lag between them getting to the school and and actually getting into your office of about ten minutes, if you recall. Okay, I don't know when they arrived at the school. I know when they arrived to my office.

Their son was in your office when they got there. Yes, mister Ejack came into the office after mister Cumbley and his wife came into your office. Yes, because at some point he'd left while you were sitting with mister Cumpley's son. He left once we can from the parents were coming. Mister Ejack comes back in when mister Crumbley and his wife walk in. I just want to lay the room out a little bit. So there's your desk, you're on one side. On the other side was mister Crumbley's son. Yes,

there was a second chair in front of your desk. Yes, mister Crumpley sat in the second chair next to his son. Yes, and then missus Crumpley sat in a third chair that was available in kind of was it behind mister Crumbley a little bit? So they were two across from my desk, and then there was one that was kind of off on a corner, and that's where she sat. Your office was not the side of this room. Is that fair? Yeah? That is fair? Okay, fairly small.

It's not small, it's it's a decent sized office. But it had space where there were two seats across from me, one seat kind of in a katy corner, a door, and then some space kind of off to what would have been by right as I was sitting in my office, and mister e Jack would have been kind of off to your right. Is that fair? Yes? Okay, So he wasn't sitting in one of the three or four chairs with your with your chair. He was kind of off to the

side. That is correct. You testified with the when the prosecuter was asking you questions that while you were talking with missus Crumbley, that you were called, mister Crumpley was interacting with his son. I do. You said that mister Crumpley looked at the math assignment, the modified math assignment, because that's the one that you had, That he looked at the modified math assignment with his son. That is correct, they looked at it together, and that

he he showed concern for his son. Yeah, it felt like he was interacting with his son and that he mentioned some things that were available for his son. And we'll talk about that in just a minute. You felt that mister Crumpley's interactions with his son, that he was showing the approfecatet level of care and caring for him at that point in your office. Yeah, I'm a on a surface level. Yes, Yes, you confirmed that mister Crumpley's

son had gone to the shooting range the weekend before I did. You confirmed that he'd had those losses, He lost a family member, his family dog, and a friend had moved away. That he experienced all those things in the year of twenty twenty one. I also asked, and he had mentioned the argument the ninety four as well, and they told you about the argument.

They confirmed that the disagreement. It's not uncommon for fifty year olds to argue with their parents as after and a surface level statement, yes, that can happen. Missus Crumpley also confirmed that her son had struggled with virtual school during COVID. She did, and that confirms what mister Crumpley's son had also told you about not liking virtual school. Yes, you told mister Crumbley and

his wife that, well, let me back up a little bit. You told the prosecutor that your hope was that mister Crumbley and his wife would take their son out of school, either get him to see someone to talk to, or to go have a really fun day. My words to them were, I'd like him to get help as soon as possible today, as possible. And so you expressed to them that you wanted him to get help as soon as possible today, as possible. Yes, and Missus Crumbley said,

we can't do today, we have to go back to work. Yes, they assured you, though, or at least you felt assured that they were going to get him help. They were, They were not against it, and they made it seem as if they would be something that they would be willing to do. Okay, So you handed these three sheets of paper to one of them. They didn't toss it in the garbage right in front of me. No, right, they didn't scoff about it and say were not

doing that. They took the basic right. So you had no reason to believe that they weren't going to get their help either at some point get their son help, either some point that day or as soon as possible based on the conversation. No, but that's also why I planned the follow up meeting. But the student the next day was to ensure that there was some movement. And you'd planned the follow up meeting kind of in and I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but you kind of plan that in your head,

like this is my next step. Yes, okay, you didn't express that during the meeting. No, in the meeting, you expressed that you were going to follow up in about forty eight hours. Well, because when mom said that today wasn't an option, I said forty eight hours, then I'll be following up. Okay. So in your mind, you had some kind of timing that you were going to follow up to make sure that things

were being followed through on. Obviously, we know that that that first check in point didn't come, but you told them within forty eight hours you wanted something done by the next more and based on your meeting, you didn't have any reason to think that mister Cumbley or his wife were not going to follow up. I would agree. Essentially, you wanted to ensure and I believe that you expressed this to mister Cumbley and his wife wanted to ensure that there's

son situation and his sadness didn't get worse, right. I wanted to ensure that we had something that if left on chats could get worse. Right. So, sitting in the meeting, you weren't concerned necessarily that that day or even by the next morning, that their son was going to harm himself. Based on what he had told me, I did not believe him to be actively harming himself, no or anyone else based on what he had told me. No, mister Crumbley's son expressed that he wanted to stay in school.

He did he wanted to stay in school for some of the reasons we've discussed. He didn't like virtual school. He wanted to make sure he could stay up with school. He didn't want to miss class. These are some of the reasons that he gave you. Yes, those were some of the reasons. He really just said that I struggled with virtual school. I want to make sure I'm staying on top of what I have to do. And that wasn't concerning to you that he wanted to stay in school. No, obviously

it's not concern right in that situation. No, it's not, but it given the context to what I was hoping. You take the kid's desires into consideration, but at the end of the day, you want a team making that decision. And if you recall, you had just had two virtual days of school. I think the week before, yes, leading up to Thanksgiving, we did have days that reverted me and we talked about this a little while ago to your knowledge, if you were calling, if you don't,

just please tell me. He only missed one day of school that school year. I know he had good attendance. I don't remember the exact days, with Missus Crumbley expressing that she and mister Crumpley had to return to work that day, and mister Cumpley's son expressing a desire to stay in school, you

felt that it was okay for mister Crumbley's son to remain in school. I felt that I was not given full options at that point, because really what I was left trying to decide between was I have parents saying they have to return to work. I have a student that I don't want left alone. And so that's when I asked, mister e Jack, is there anything from a discipline standpoint? Is there any reason he can't stay in school? Is

there anything you need to do? And then I made the decision. I made a judgment call based on what I had is I didn't want a student potentially home alone. So based on the information that you had, you decided that it was okay for him to remain in school. I decided that that was the best decision. I thought I could make any information okay based on that meeting. Mister Cumpley's son, to your knowledge, was not contemplating suicide.

You said that he had suicidal ideation. Was that ideations? But that's different than me actively suicidal? It is the student stated that he was not You was not actively suicide. You knew that he had been to the gun range with his mom on the weekend prior. Yes, you knew at a minimum that he had access to a firearm the weekend before because he went to the gun range. I knew that he had been to a gun range and

that he used to firearm a a gun range. Yes, you did not ask him on November thirties of twenty twenty one if he had acted to a firearm. I did not. You had no reason to look into whether or not he had access to a firearm. Would you agree with that based on the information that you had, it's easy to go in hindsight, and a lot of things based on what my concerns were. I was concerned about student well being. And again you said it's easy to go in hindsight. So

we know what happened within a couple hours of this meeting. So we all in this court and know what happened. It's easy for us to look back and say that different decisions could have been made. Right, I made the decisions I made based on the information I had at the time. At the time, you don't have the benefit of hindsight. At ten forty or ten fifty am on November thirty, at fIF twenty twenty one. Is that fair? I had ninety minutes of information. You suggested those parents find a therapist

for him to talk to her evaluate him. I did. Thank you. Have had experience with parents who have refused to provide mental health treat it to their child? Is that? Is that a fret? You recall that off the top of my head. I'm not recalling a specific instance of that if it occurred. Did you remember testifying previously about that? I don't know. Would reviewing your testimony on that help to refresh your recollection if we want to bring it up? Sure? Yes, thank you? By about you're sure?

Thank you. You'd like to read the highly rections, you can just read that to yourself and let us know that refreshes your recollection, all right, thank you? Yeah. So I had asked, like if it's occurred, and I say, it's not overly common, but I'm sure it does happen. But I'm giving it for instance of what we would do in that type of situation if it were to happy Man, for sure. Sure, thank you. So reviewing based on what you just said, reviewing the transcript

has helped to refresh your recollection. Well, what I'm stating in the transcript is in a situation where that could happen, that what we would do is involve CPS and make sure that the student is receiving ordinary care. In fact, the question was put CPS Child Protective Services would be involved if that situation were to occurring. In fact, the question was thank you, okay, had you ever dealt with a kid at school who you felt med psychiatric care

and yet the parents did provide it in some fashion or another. Who answer was yes, that had occurred. And then I go on to explain what would happen in that type of situation? Right, you said, it's not overly common, it does happen. If it did happen, this is what we would do. Correct, correct, And I know I've asked this a couple of times, But you didn't have any reason to believe on November thirtieth of twenty twenty one that James Crumbley or his wife were not going to follow

through and obtain a therapist for their child to talk to. I didn't have enough time to know if that would happen or not, given our contexts of our conversation. No, I didn't have reason to believe that at that time. If you were called a meeting with mister Cumbley and his wife and their son concluded at approximately ten to fifty in the morning, that sounds about right. Yes, their son left the room first. If you were called and

went back to class. Yes, the shooting occurred at approximately began an approximately twelve to fifty one pm that day. After you've heard that there was a shooter at the school, you did not immediately suspect that it was mister Cumpley's son, if you remember, I did not. In fact, you didn't suspect that it was mister Cumbley's son until you looked into his attendance after the shooting. Correct. This is also after mister Kumbley's son had already been arrested

quite a bit after this. I'm gonna talk about just a few things. Just go back to your direct testimony with the prosecutor. M HM. So that calling a parent in is a high level of concern, Yes, and that could be a concern for appropriate behavior. It could be, Yes, it could be a concern for these students' well being. It could be it could be a concerned that the student needs immediate care or help. Yes, it could be for any number of reasons. A high level of concern is

dependent on the situation. Is that fair? Yes, I would agree your concern with going to mister Compley's son's class on November thirtieth of twenty twenty one. Is you specifically mentioned that you went because it's it doesn't raise It doesn't basically raise concern or red flags if a counselor goes down to get a student on a class. Yes, that is true. And I had very little information at that point as to what was going on, so I wanted to

make sure to do it. And I knew that the dean wanted me involved in the conversation, so I knew that student support was at least a potential plan. At that point, when you were discussing, you said that you told mister Crumpley's son while you were meeting with him before his parents got there, that you wanted his parents to get him help. Do you remember discussing

that with the prosecution. I do, okay, At that time, mister Cumpley's son didn't say say goodness, I've been begging my parents for help and they haven't given it to me. I'm not sure many students would. He didn't say I'm glad you're gonna ask them, because I've asked them and they didn't listen. He did not say that. He didn't say I really need this and I'm really glad that you're doing this for me. He did. He didn't say any of that no, which also would not be It's not

uncommon for students to not have a big response to something like that. If he had said any of those things, obviously your reaction would be different. When mister crumble and his wife got to the school, it would be different information than I did not have. Yes, And when mister Crumbley and his wife were at the school, they also didn't say anything about or Mister Crumpley didn't say anything specifically about Wow, son, you you you really did need

some help. You've been asking me for it. Right. The discussion was simply looking at the math assignment, the modified math assignment, and then mister Crumbley expressing to his son, you know you have people to talk to,

right. That was a piece of it. Over the ten minutes. Us that that they've talked mister Crumley and his son has he he did say that did talk When discussing the impact of mister Crumbley's son's friend leaving, You don't know that mister Crumpley's son had ever expressed how significant that impact was on him. Is that fair? Until sitting in your office, I had very little context, even when he was in my office over what that was. All I knew was that a friend had left, recently, had moved, and

that was hard. You indicated on your direct testimony with with mister Keith that mister Crumbley mentioned you have people you can talk to, we talk, and then mentioned something. Your testimony was that that his son mentioned something about a journal or I'm sorry that mister Crumbley mentioned something about a journal. Mister Crumbley's statement to my recollection was you have your counselor you have your journal. We talk. Mister Cumbley didn't say your journal, you know, the one that's

in your backpack. He didn't say the one that you always keep with you. No, he didn't say a color. No, he didn't describe it at all. No. So to your knowledge, based on that conversation, you can't say that mister Crumbley's son knew what his son's journal would look like

if he had a journal. Based on that conversation, I know, I had no knowledge beyond that there was an existence of some sort of one moment, right, sure, mister Hopkins, You've made decisions on November thirtieth of twenty twenty one based on your education, your training, and your experience. Correct. That was a piece of it. Also, based on the information

that you had in front of you. That was a majority of it, which included four emails from teachers and approximately two months regarding mister Crumbley's son. That was a part of it. Yes, concerns that those teachers had raised. Yes, that was a part of it, much of which you did not share with mister Crumpley prior to that November thirtieth meeting. Is that fair? Correct? It was shared during the meeting. Based on all of these

things. You did not believe that mister Crumbley's son was an immediate danger to himself. I do not believe that. No, nor did you believe that he was a danger at anyone else based on the information I ed, though I know further questions, agree to that, Thank you, mister Hopkins. It appears that information and contacts would be important to you in these kinds of meetings. Yeah, okay, Now, did James Krumbly tell you that number thirty it wasn't the first time that his son asked for help? No?

Did James Krembley tell you that his son asked for help in the April of twenty twenty one. No did James Trumbley tell you that, despite that never once was an appointment with a medical health divider set up. No did James Trembley ever tell you that is really is June of twenty twenty one, his son had obtained his own firearm. No did gam Trembley tell you that his

son had been begging for a nine millimeter fireron. No did Jeames Tremley tell you that his son actually sent him a screenshot of a nine millimeter for sale a few weeks before the meeting. No did James Trembley tell you that his son actually obtained a nine millimeter just four days before this meeting. No did James Tremley tell you that the nine millimeters obtained look identical to the nine millimeters

that he drew right here on this picture. No did James Krimley tell you that he worked for door dash, he hadn't begun work that day, he could take taking this on home. No, did he tell you that when his son was talking about his friend leaving was actually his only friend. No, So you took what you learned from the defendant son. You described those losses he felt as significant. I did, And that's without knowing all that

information. Yes, you mentioned that you would hope the decision about a student would be made by a team. I did. Who's on the team? The student, the parents and he caring it all at the school? And did either James or Jennifer Crumbley share any information with you? It's hih? Had they of what would you have done? Objection your hon her speculation? She asked the same question on Chross. Did you ask that question? She asked? What would you have done? Talking about calling CPS and such?

I know? Actually that was related to if they had was she asked? If they had not obtained a treatment for their son, Yes, by the following day or within forty eight if they had refused, Actually, if they had refused to obtain mental health treatment, what would he have done? Not? I'll rephrase, judge, that's fine, mister Hopkins. You satisfied earlier

that your plan was to call shop Protective Services in forty eight hours. Yes, and that's based upon just the information that you learned from the defendant. Sun it is would this metium ended differently had you know all the other information that we just might be an objection. You're hor speculation. I think it does come for speculation. I believe he can offer a definitive answer here. Judge a definitive answer about what would have happened if they get that from contacted

a therapist. No, you're unders asking about a definitive answer for what mister Hopkins would have done if there had been additional information in your honor? Can we approach because I can we approach? Please? Okay? Can we shut off the hope fast? The US are happy. You were asked on a cross examination that you didn't ask the shooter and Nonumber thirtieth if he had access to a gun? Do you remember that? I do? And your response was what I did not? Okay? And did you have reason to ask

him about that at that time? I didn't feel I did. And you were asked about the shooter's recitation of what happened at the shooting arrange with his mother are you stating I asked that, No, you were asked that, oh by cross. Okay, So you learned on November the twenty ninth, number the thirtieth, that the defendant's son went to a shooting arrange with his mother at that prior weekend. Did Jeans Primley tell you that the shooter actually shot his new gun? No, thank you, I've nothing, brother.

What did you step down in your excuse? You guys do a great thing set up from you. Say thank you so m