Welcome to a Cross Generations where the voices of black women unite. I'm your host, Tiffany Frost. Tiffany Frost. Tiffany, we gather a season elder myself as the middle generation, and a vibrant young soul for engaging intergenerational conversations, prepared to engage or.
Hear perspectives that no one else is happy. You know how we do.
We create mess, creates that creates. Hi, everybody, I'm Tiffany Cross and I'm your host of Across Generations. All right, we have an exciting show coming up, and I want to start by saying how important black fathers are in our lives. Now listen. I am very aware that the media often gets it wrong and portrays this myst of the absentee black father, and we know the data does
not support this. A study supported by the Center for Disease Control, members of Congress, and the distinguished gentlemen of them Mega Sci Fi Fraternity Incorporated, found that black fathers are actually, regardless of marital or socioeconomic status, more involved in their children's lives than any other racial group. So for all the black dads out there who are doing
the damn thing, listen, brother, we salute you. So now that we've gotten that out of the land, acknowledge that I do want to acknowledge that there is another side of this coin, and that is how those of us who grew up with out fathers for so many reasons which we'll can into, we want to have that discussion now. For me personally, I was definitely a daddy's girl. My father treated me like a princess. But honey, Papa was a rolling stone. He and my mother would never marry.
They obviously say together long enough to produce me and then it was over. And I really don't have a recollection of them being in a relationship. They had a relationship with each other, but they were not in a romantic relationship with each other. But my dad was always around. In fact, every Christmas Eve he would sleep on our sofa so he could be there with me in the morning when I opened my gifts. He drove a motorcycle. He picked me up whenever I has and he kicked it.
And he never told me I couldn't go and my father were going to a cabaret. This is like an adult byob party. He'd take me right along with him, whether it was appropriate or not. He works in the city of Cleveland in a variety of rolls, painting streets and like driving big machines. He was hilarious. He was the life of a party and he never had any judgment for anyone. He used to give, like you know, those guys on the corner, he would give them liquor.
Women on the corner, he would give them food. He was a great dad, but my father had a drinking problem. He drank a lot every single day. And while he created a loving environment for me, I really can't say that it was always appropriate. One of my earliest memories is sitting on my father's lap while he was in a cipher with his friends and they told him, like, hey, man, maybe you should put your daughter to bed. And my dad said, my daughter ain't gotta go nowhere. She want
to sit right here on my lap. She's cool and she's going to know everything about life. So when these knuckleheads come along and try to play her, she will be ready. And they were rolling the weed and my dad asked, baby, tell him was this My little five year old self said, joint, this was my life. But the liquor had him in his grips. I remember him vomiting blood. He went in and out of the hospital, and so one day he went in and he didn't
come out. He died of cirrhosis of the liver when I was eleven years old, and I feel that absence deeply now, just as I did then. So we talk a lot about daddy issues, and I want to invite you into this discussion, if you're so compelled, participate in the discussion as well. In our comments, I do read them, but I think it's an important conversation to have whether you have your father in your life or not, because we're going to talk about the relationship. So let's get
into it. Doctor Joy Ellington is a mother of three. She's sixty four. She di a divorcee who currently works in the healthcare field, assisting underprivileged persons obtained health insurance. She was born in Alabama, raised in California, and the relationship with her father was strained her entire life, and even though he was not present, she found herself constantly seeking his approval even up until his death two years ago.
And we also have with us Ariel b. She's a thirty three year old medical coder and podcast host of this two show passed she has never met her biological father and has spent many years searching for him. As a mother of five, she finds it very difficult to relate to her children who seek a father figure, due to her not feeling she really needed that growing up.
She is, currently, however, realizing how the absence of a father may have caused how she navigated her relationship with men as an adult, which I think is something we can all relate to. So I thank you ladies for
being here. Thank you, and I'm really excited to have this conversation because you know, when the two people in your life who are supposed to love you the most, your mother and your father, when those relationships are strained or go awry, it impacts how we live our entire lives as adults.
So doctor Joy, I will starting with you. Tell me what was the relationship with your father. It was interesting in that mother and father divorced when I was one, so that's very early. And at that time, my mother and I moved to California, so I lived there for several years before my grandmother got sick. So my relationship with my father wasn't in existence. But then when I went back to Mobile, then we did have a relationship. He would come and pick me up every weekend, something
similar to what you had with your father. But then when I moved back to California, then it began to be strained again, somewhat impacted by my stepmother. There were some conflicts there. When I would go back to Mobile for visits, he was ever present, so it was like if we were in each other's company, there was a relationship. When I was out of sight, it was like I was out of mind. That was the strain that was there.
Yeah, well, who was responsible for that? He proactively call you and see you or as a child, were you adult eyes in a way where you were the one keeping that relationship alive.
I would say I was the one that was keeping that relationship alive while I was living in California.
I mean, it's hard to kind of comprehend that as a child. But how did that make you feel that? I guess did you feel like this relationship was not viable on its own if you were not the one keeping it alive? And if so, how did that make you feel?
That's very challenging and the reason why I'm saying is very challenging. Many times, when people go through a divorce, one of the parents or both parents often feed a lot of negativity into the relationship, speaking about one parent versus another. But my mother didn't do that. My mother was very kind and that whatever your father is, he will reveal it. And so that was always the message in the back of my head that I'm going to see who you are, who I am to you, and
who you are to me. You will demonstrate that. So building that relationship or continuously making the conversation that was frustrating because I felt that he should have. However, I had another savior, per se, and that was my stepfather, So he stepped into the role. Though I didn't feel abandoned. I had some issues of abandonment of why not me, But looking at the dynamics of his relationship with his wife and my brothers, that was different.
Yeah. Can I ask you a question, Yes, your stepfather stepped in and loved you appropriately like he was present in your life. Oh, by far still is today. I feel like sometimes as mothers we remarry hoping that that void gets filled. Did that feel the void of your father being absent or now? Oh, definitely, because he loved me. I'll give you a story, and this is very funny. I wanted to go to a dance that was taking place at a club, and my mother said, definitely, you
can't go. And I said, I know what to do. I'll go to my stepfather and I'll ask him.
And he told me. He said no, you can't go. And I was so angry and I was so hurt. I began to cry, and he just held me and said, baby, that's just not the place for you to go. That's the It's not that I don't trust you, I don't trust them. So he stepped in in a different manner, or he stepped in as that father father figure to secure me of understanding. It wasn't just a no, it was I'm protecting you for the rest of your life. How old were you, oh, fourteen.
That's why I think it's so important to acknowledge that, yes, black men are our presents in our lives, whether they're a biological father or not. There are fathers who are out there doing great things. And I hate this narrative of this like absentee black father, because they do exist. But I'm happy that you brought this up because your fatherhood story is different, I think from doctor Joy. So
tell me your relationship with your father and your story. Okay, So I have a mother and a father, and until I was like twenty six, twenty seven, my understanding of them being my parents was that they were my parents. I didn't find out so I was twenty six that was adopted. So that so neither of your parents are your biological parent, either one neither one of them. But growing up, I did not know that I was adopted by black people. I think it was different. I was
like an Asian household, but everyone was Caucasian. They were not yeah, And I mean my grandmother, my mother always said Jesus makes everyone different. And when you were in a big black family, there are different shades of black. So it wasn't uncommon. Some of my cousins have the same mother and father and there is one that's lighter span complexion and one that's not.
Yeah.
So I didn't look around it and say anything. We were all African American everyone, so I did not question it. Ever, I wasn't loved wrong. I wasn't I didn't spend like the first five years in foster care. I was adopted from birth so within forty eight hours I was there in their custody. So it wasn't until I got to be twenty six twenty seven then I figured out that
they were not my biological parents. How did that feel at twenty seven, twenty six, twenty seven, to have your entire worlds disrupted?
You know?
I kind of felt like the family secret. I felt like someone or something along the way thought that I wasn't capable of understanding that information. I felt like I was belittled or maybe thought to not be able to understand, kind of like it's too much for her. By then twenty six twenty seven, I was married, I had four kids. That means every single time I gave birth or went to the doctor, I checked out health and that had nothing to do with me, and everyone thought that was appropriate.
So I think that's where I kind of felt slighted. I felt like someone should have stepped in and said something, even for the health of me or my kids. Anything could have happened, and no one thought was the same thing to me.
I don't think about the health aspect of it, yes, but I think that there it was depending on the time. Yes, I have a brother that's the same he did. He was unaware that my stepfather was not his father because my stepfather came on board when he was one. That's the only daddy that he's ever known. And when that happened, when it was revealed that it was he felt slighted, such as yourself. I don't know what that feels like
for me. Watching the dynamics of family, I think that motherhood, fatherhood is all who really stepped to the plate to perform right. I do understand the biological part because we want to know what the truth is, right. But even with knowing the truth, the truth to me is who really stepped up to the break. That's my feelings about right. How was your.
Adoptive parents? Did you feel connected to them? Did you have a good childhood? I felt connected.
I was.
I can never say that I wasn't loved or provided for or protected. I grew up very well and went to good schools. I was in a good neighborhood. I went to the best summer camps. I think I was. I was fine, And I think that's why a part of me always felt guilty looking for my biological family, because I wasn't raised bad. I feel like sometimes people only think you deserve to look, You deserve to know if you grew.
Up in foster care, or if you were abused.
Or but I genuinely, out of curiosity, wanted to know who I was the facets of me. But my parents were great. So you're so your adoptive father, you did have a relationship with him, Yeah, say raised me from birth? Okay, But you had a good relationship, a healthy relationship relationship with him. So then how does not having or I guess does not having or knowing even who your biological father is. Is that a challenge for you and if so, how does that challenge show up in your everyday life.
It's a challenge for me only because I did not I do not today currently know a name, a face, age, anything of my biological father. But meeting the woman that burst me. So you did meet her biological brother, tell us about that. There was a lot of me and her. I saw a lot of the facets of nature versus nurture in that woman. Things that I could not connect with on my biological side that I said as a child, there's home videos of me saying as a kid, I
don't think I'm from here. I was four there was no reason why I should say that out loud. And it was a lot of my family. Like I said, everyone in my family is great aunts, uncle, everyone married, no issues, all kids from the same household. When I found my biological mother, she's one of a lot. I'm not going to lie and say that I have all the details. It's more than eight And I figured out that there's not one woman that's married. Every woman has
multiple children with different fathers. The facets of you know, domestic violence or divorces high. I felt like I carried something genetic that wasn't seen in the home that I was grown up in. But I saw a lot of the facets that I think in my adopted household were seen as unruly or rebellious, or loudspoken or sexually inquisitive at an early age. Was there in that biological family's household.
And it was so normal that I was able. It was like a sheep shedding its like I'd never been looked at and so understood than when I sat in that lady's house. That raises a question of nature versus nurture. Did you ask her about your father? I did, and what she said. Now, when I found out I was adopted. It was not in the best circumstances. It was told me, you have mistake to this stay currently. I was never
supposed to know. So in a safety security posit deposit box downtown, if my parents were to pass or pass together, that boxes to be destroyed. I was never supposed to know that was the intent.
With time.
My father told me, how do you ever tell the child you prayed for and that you love that she's not yours? When do I sit you down and look you in the face and tell you you're not mine? He's like, I never thought about it again. Once I signed that paper and I raised you, I never it never crossed my mind again. You were mine, I was yours, and we life went on. I found in biological mother on Facebook, so wonderful network were you put in people's
first and last name? Is not like Instagram where people change their hashtags. So I found her on there, and all I had was a safety deposit box of pictures of children because I'm a product of two teenage children, the same way my child was a product of two teenage children. But no one in my adopted family had ever had teenage pregnancy ever, So yeah, I only had a picture of a young girl tenth grade and a young boy tenth grade. But I'm looking for them twenty
seven years later with a childhood school OCPS picture. I did find the gentleman online, the same way I found a biological mother through Facebook. He told me that he carried the shame of me for a long time that giving me up for adoption. His family at that time actually had to move because you know, you were supposed to have raised the kids you birth, and they chose a different option. So he said, no disrespect to you, but I'd like to get a DNA test. I've never known.
I knew she birthed a child. I knew you didn't stay, but I don't know. And I was in tenth grade and this is a grown man now, So who am I to say?
Oh?
No, just love me for who are no? I need to know too. I was just as lost as he was. We went to there's a DNA center in Orlando, Florida. He said, I'll pay for your test, and I'll pay for mine. He paid for himself, and he went first. That day that he went, I had to work, so I went the next day, checked myself in. I asked if my test was already paid for. The lady at the clerk desk confirmed that it was. I sat down, I let them swab me, and I sat there, and then in two weeks I got an email and none
of our genes matched. So he was not your biological father. Wow, so we still don't know who your biological father?
Now? Did you go back and have to confront your mother with this info?
The only thing is, it's hard to confront someone I don't have relationship with, like long term.
It's hard for me to push. I feel like I can push.
My mother that raised me because I'm like, well, we were raised with good standards and yeah, honesty of the best policy. It's hard for me to lay who I am on someone, even though I know she loved me, and I know she looked for me, and it was a teenage pregnancy, It's hard for me to push her. She was very adamant that that's the only person I slept with, grade she had no other answer. M and I thought it was always a little weird, a little eerie.
I did do the whole genetics thing that's online with the apps the DNA and me a DNA and whatever, and my uh, it says that I'm related to a lot of people with the last name that is in her family, so I kind of stopped.
To a lot of people in her family.
The last name is similar to a lot of people that are related on like her stepdad's side of the family. So that made me pause. I didn't know if I was going to make her relift something. I didn't know if this was a stepfather, a step brother, and I let it go for the mental health of a woman that I felt like at that time had changed her life and was doing good for herself and she was happy with just finding me, and I kind of just left it.
It was weird. I always thought it was a little eerie. The last name was due match.
Like they'll say this genetics of your DNA is really to people, and it will say mother's side, and mother's side has all the last names of her side. Then it will say father's last name. Let's just throw out Johnson, but that Johnson's side, let's say, is just from the stepfather's side.
So that gave me pause. And I don't want incestuous.
It could have been a child was touched and I just didn't I just didn't want to, so it's possible that you are the product of sexual abuse correct and potentially incestuous sexual abuse food a stepfather.
Correct.
That is a lot to Carrie as somebody how knowing that, How did that show up in your I mean, you're finding us out at twenty six and twenty seven year divorce. It was Yeah, it was just hard. I just felt like I didn't want I never got a yes or no answer. I don't even know if that is correct. R. I didn't want to peel back trauma for someone who I was taken from her. Her mother said absolutely not. I have seven kids. I'm struggling to feed these seven.
You will birth her because that was their face and the really, but she will not stay here. So she had that trauma, She had a lot of me being taken from her. They said, oh, we're just gonna go check her vitals, and I never went back to her room.
This was a tenth second.
Yeah, I didn't want to tear her down because I feel like, no matter what she went through for me to get there, I lived a good life and and a part of me just wanted to be grateful for that.
Now you brought up something, I'm gonna step back a little bit because I've gone through that this this year. Yeah, And it's interesting where you have daddy issues past their death. My father passed two years ago. A wow, but my sorry for that. Stepmother required a dns A test two years ago. I had to take it this year. I'm sixty four years old. You went and got swabbed down at sixty? Why why did she want that? Why the inheritance? Not that I know of. She said that she needed
that for peace of mine. She did not believe that you were correct? And is that what led to the challenging relationship? You know, you're the distance that you guys had with each other. I think that it's part of it. I think that it's part of it. How long was she married to your father? Oh? Over fifty some years. Okay, so she was there for a good Oh yeah, okay. She came on war when I was about eight years old. Oh yeah, no, that's young. Yeah, so knowing all the dynamics.
But talking about daddy issues, right, So, when there is absenteeism, you need to kind of roll things back to evaluate why is there absenteeism? And for me, I believe that his engagement when I was present of being very He was very present, but when I was out of sight out of mind, had some to do with the dynamics of his household. It wasn't just totally relying upon him. So when we talk about daddy issues, it is holling back, what are all of the factors that could contribute to that?
And for me thinking about this at sixty four passed my father's passing my biological father. Now you're being required to take a DNA test. That's very revealing much. Can I ask you if you took it? I did, you didn't. I wasn't going to. Okay, well, let me say it. I wasn't going to that. I was going to.
That.
I wasn't going to again. And it was primarily because my stepmother and I my stepmother literally cursed me out about an issue and recently, yeah, and because of that, I said, okay, I'm not going to take the test. But then from my stepmother and my father's relationship, I have two brothers, and one of the brothers asked me if I would take the test, and because of him, I said I would because to me, my role in
life is to be who I am. I'm the daughter, I'm the sister, and if there's something that I should do, I will the same way as it was. I was going to take the test with my stepmother. But then once you curse me out for no reason, okay, I have no reason to really oblige you. Yeah, you know.
It's interesting because, first of all, I'm sorry that you had this experience with your stepmother. My father was never married to my mother. Like I said, they stayed along to make me and that was it. But my father did eventually marry a woman when I was like five years old, my stepmother, Sharon, and.
We got along great.
I mean I was a brat, don't get me wrong, because my father let me do whatever. She'd be trying to, like, you know, play Susie h homemaker and make these meals so they didn't have kids yet, and she'd have a balance medal with vegetables and I'm like, oh, I want it, you know, and my name okay, pizza, you know, and she was trying to bring water. I remember when I was little, when the song We Are the World came out,
that was like my song. Okay, I had the little forty five For the young people who don't know, that's a little tiny album.
It looked like a CD. Y'all might not even know what the CD is anymore this point.
But I used to put this album on and we had a closet that you stepped up in and I would hide behind her clothes as soon as that first Stanza came out, and I would just like, I remember you can yes, my father. She's like, you know, Thompson. She's like in the closet, like messing up my clothes. And my dad said, oh, don't worry about take care of it and move all her clothes to a different clossal so you can carry always keep my stage singing we are in the world. And she still found it
in herself to love me take care of me. I mean, he would let me eat whatever. I would get sick and she would come clean it up and everything. So I was blessed to have that relationship with her, which I think helped me have a good relationship with my father, but to have that relationship disrupted with his untimely death at a point, and I remember the night that my father, or the last time I saw him conscious. He said to me, he's like I'm dying and he was vomiting blood.
And I mean just it was awful, and I knew I just didn't want to be there. I didn't want to see it, you know, I wanted to leave, And so I left, and the next morning the ambulance was there carrying him out. We went to the hospital. And so a part of me wonders, like, I wonder, had I stayed within the house with my dad? You know, I didn't at this point he was living with another
woman who wasn't my stepmother. But I was like, I wonder if I stayed in that house with him that night, what he may have said to me, you know, what would he have imparted some dying wisdom on me? Or what I've been traumatized by what I saw. I don't know, But I think the commonality of all of us, even though you were blessed enough to have your adoptive father raise you, you're blessed enough to have a step dad come in your life. So again, shout out to black dads.
I think the commonality, though, is there was our biological fathers were not around for a point in our life, and I just want or how that has impacted our relationships with our peers, with our lovers, but most importantly, with ourselves. And I will say for me, I definitely had a pin. When I was younger, I was went to day older men. I don't mean like inappropriate, like I was a teenager dating adults. I mean like in my twenties. Most of them I dated when in their thirties.
Okay. I definitely.
Liked men who you know, were kind of in charge, you know, like very similar characteristics to my dad. And I'll tell you, guys, I'm telling all my business and I'm like sharing my therapy session. But I remember I was talking to my therapist had me write down what characteristics I would like in a parent at different points
in my life. I recommend people do that. It was really illuminating because I wrote about what kind of characteristics I want as a toddler, you know, as a seven year old, eight year old, as the thirteen year old, as a sixteen year old. And I wrote all these down, and I was dating this man, and months prior she had asked me, why do you like this man?
You know?
And I wrote down all the things I liked about him, and she said to me, Tiffany, the things that you wished you had and a parent, you reference them as things you like in this man. And she said to me, you are looking for a parent, not a partner, and a partner cannot be your parent. And I, at this big age, am still struggling with that because I's so caught up in who I am. So I set all
my business today. How has the relationship with your father impacted the relationship that you have with our counterparts black men and your relationships with men.
That's I like the question. It was very impactful for me in regards to my marriage. I feel that men have a very special place in their children's life. I think they're very important, of course, to the partnership between the adults. But when I married my husband, it was a little sketchy, and I'm saying sketchy because we were slated to get married. Then I did what I shouldn't have done, and then I got pregnant, so then I
moved the wedding up. So some would possibly call him a shotgun yet, but it really you were already slated to be married, but because I moved the wedding date up, then his heart began to fainter. I'm talking about my ex husband, but we were married for almost twenty five years out of that, I would not have stayed the entire time. He was not abusive, the best partner for my children I could ever have. Okay, for me, he didn't love me. He liked me a lot, but he
didn't love me. He loved me now, but I'm not his wife, right would say he loved you. Oh, I'll use his words. I love you, but I'm not in love with you. Yeah, so it was the same thing. Yes, were you in love with him? Yes? And no. I think I was more so in love with the fact of keeping my family together. I wanted my children. That was why we stayed. But mind you talking about fathers, my children loved their father. He filled a gap that needed to be filled. It was a promise that I
made to myself. There were a couple of promises. One was, I'll never just have one child because I stayed the only child for eleven years. That's a lonely life, you know, that makes me feel good? And then not only was that was the first one, and the second one was I was going to fight to keep my family together for my children's sake. So you know, there's a description says there's no greater love than the love where you lay down your life for a friend, where my children,
for me were my friends. So I would sacrifice me similar to some things that you may be familiar with, you know, was it the right thing to do? Would I do it again? Definitely, because I I would not. When I look at my children, they're who they are and how they are, I would not change it, give it. Our home was very peaceful and if you asked my children, what would they call it? It was just a wholesome place.
Everyone came to our home. My children went into shock along with me when we went for a divorce because we never displayed. My children never saw us argue. We would have deep conversations, but that was still behind closed doors, so it was not a lot of a turmoil that went on in our house. My ex husband, I love him. I still love him to Thursday because he is a very good person.
Did you know when you got married him that he didn't love you or that he was not in love with you?
No? Not really. During our wedding it was a very exciting time for he and I And I'll see it this way. I showed up expecting him not to show up. He showed up expecting me not to show up. That was one too, was the fact that while the minister was actually during our vows, we were kind of arguing right in front, but not a a It was a big reality ye right. It wasn't a bitter argument, but it was an argument of what are you doing here? What are you doing here? You know? Really? And that
kind of friendship that we still home. Well, I think that's beautiful. I think there's something there though, to be with somebody who wasn't in love with you and the through line of the relationship the distance you had with your biological father, because that is the first relationship that we have with a member of the opposite sex, and
it determines so much. How do you think, Well, I mean you kind of found out when you were already an adult, but just how did the relationship with your adoptive father, who was there for you and supportive, and then finding out you don't know who your biological father is, how has that impacted your choice in partnership.
I can say that a lot of people look at daddy issues as an issue. An issue is a bad thing, An issue is something you should see help for, talk to a therapist for you're the problem until you get that little kink worked out. It'll all always be you. I need people to know that daddy issues can come from healthy father daughter relationships. Abs It was healthy. It was so healthy to the fact that when my mother,
when my husband didn't do shit, I called my dad. Yeah, my dad came over and I sat down, and my dad would fix everything. To the point that sometimes I didn't even lean on my husband, probably the way I should have, because how I was grown and raised and fed. And if I have a problem, you call your dad, and my husband's at work. The toilet is broken, now my dad's at home. I'm going to call my dad.
I want to even fill them in sometimes or sometimes, like you rung up, I really resonated when you said you and your husband didn't argue in front of your kids, and if you had serious or in depth or needed conversation, it was done behind closed doors.
That is me to a picture.
I have never, to this day at thirty three, ever seen my parents argue. Ever, so when I experienced it in my marriage, I was like, oh my god, I have to fix this.
It's me. This never happened to my parents. They never argued. They did.
I just didn't see it. But because I didn't see it, people think ignorance is bliss, and it's not. If I would have maybe seeing my parents argue in front of me and handle it in an appropriate way, with positive language and not calling each other out of their name, maybe I wouldn't have developed the fix it mentality like I have to be a better wife. My mother has to be a better wife than me because she didn't pull my father on a character like this, but she did it right.
It was just behind closed doors, so I didn't see it.
So I think that's so key what you said, because I do think a lot of parents and the healthy relationships.
It's like, let's take this, but it's okay to see conflict.
Okay, yeah, it is normal.
That's how I handle it as a wife, and I never saw it. I might as well. I had a mom and dad.
I never there were facets of a marriage, even though I was a product in their house and raised and love and appropriately.
I never saw it. But that's just the thing. It wasn't that I didn't want to do that. My husband didn't want to argue kids exactly. I felt that it should always be. Now i'll take you another step or into a different layer. And this layer is after we moved to California and then we moved back because my grandmother became sick. Lived with my grandparents, my maternal grandparents. But my grandfather was an alcoholic, but he was a
gentle alcoholic. Yep, same with my dad. With my dad now, he and my grandmother would argue all the time in the bed. So I saw that, so it didn't bother me. Going back to what you're saying about having that actually exhibited in front of you, what that really means and what it meant to me was you could have the argument and okay, good night, maybe good night or no good nights in the morning because I saw my grandmother get up in the morning and make his breakfast and
they may argued half the night. Yeah, but they're in the bed together. So the conflict resolution, how do you do that? You stay in there? Right. That was the other reason why I felt that I could do it all over again, because I saw that it was not an issue.
You know, I it makes me think about I'll try to just a little bit to sex well because I think, you know, as a young woman, and you know, my father passed away and I had to go through my teenage years. And I remember my father. Like I said, my father was from around the way and but cool. Like everybody loved my dad. He was the life of the party. But he certainly did raise me a certain way to
conduct myself, a certain way. I was untouchable. I was this princess, you know, and I was only to be touched by like the most high quality person who could ever. And so I did go through life and I never, even at this middle age, I have never separated sex and love, And so I wonder if it's that I've never separated sex and love, or do I equate sex with love, Like do I want this connection so badly that I convince myself maybe I love you and have
this relationship that I'm really yearning for. Since my therapist told me you're looking for a parent, not a partner, I'm like, Oh, I wonder if I'm really searching for something deeper. I haven't quite worked that out in my
mind yet. Y'all are my therapist for either time. Yeah, but I wonder how even in our physical relationships with our counterparts, like I've never been able to do like a casual sex relationship, you know, because I think about my father's been gone, you know, in the arms of Jesus. Some would say for you know, over thirty five years. But I do think about like him watching me, and like men I deal with, I'm like, will my father be good with me? Rocking with you?
You know? What?
Are you the kind of man who my father will be proud to hand over his daughter too? And it makes me question myself sometimes with these men, how does it show up for you? Like when you deal with men, what is your thought process as it relates to your dad? I think when you get that princess treatment, it is hard to separate sex from love. For me, very similar to what you said, I would be a terrible prostitute. I can't. I can't do it. Yahause some people are like, oh, oh,
it's a tool. It's not to me now, it's not a tool. I don't think it's a game. Everyone I've ever slept with I loved them, Yeah, and it was supposed to be this For everything. I equate sex with love. I definitely equate children with love like it was my dad didn't leave, yeah, so why would you leave? And I buried your children and you're still going to leave like it was like a shock, like it was something I really had to work through. And sex goes both ways.
If a man thinks that sex is not equivalent to love, which I sadly have figured that out out, it doesn't matter how I feel. I know that I struggle separating sex with love very bad, and I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
But I will not, I have not, I probably will never.
I have girlfriends all the time that are just like, oh, what are they say, knock the dust off, just do it. That sounds terrible. Yeah, that sounds sounds val. It doesn't sound terrible in the sense of I'm judging women. I'm actually a little envious that you can own your sexuality that way and just use it when you want to, right or like you're not even you're not trying to resolve some daddy issue, making like maybe you just have agency over your sexuality and this is what you like
to do for me. It is definitely very caught up in the relationship I was my father and being the kind of woman that he would be proud of today just as he was then. But also this is innate value that takes myself more right than anyone else because he taught me like my father, I'm telling you, I would be a very adult environments write on my dad's lap. They passing a weed around and I'm sitting right here, and my father was like, you can't even come speak to my day.
You have to afford me respect from protection, even my uncles. I'm proud of you all.
Thank you, Doctor Joying telling our seven elder like, what role like, how do you conflate the relationship you have with men sexually with the kind of absentee father that you have.
I do not. I do not for you. I understand the integration. I do believe in love and sex and how they really it. This is I have to take a breath there because I remember I remember loving my husbands much. This is this is really I know I was, but it was, but I really just wanted to melt into his body. Yes, yes, that was the love. That was just how deep it was for me. However, there's the flip side, because I can separate the two, where you may not be able to separate the two. I
can't work on it. I grew up in a family with many men. I had a great aunt that had seven sons, and I used to. I lived my life with them, so I learned the mill's role and their conversation, and it really made me more masculine in my thinking and feelings than feminine. It's hard for me to cry. Wow, I don't mind, but it is. It's very challenging for me to cry. I can cry right now. I'm not that sensitive. Yeah, But at the same token, boy, I have some stories.
Yoursion tolerated as a child. When you cried. Did someone tell you to be quiet? You're doing too much?
Suck it up? No?
No, no, But just hanging around seven boy cousins made you not cry?
Oh, because I was never going to be that biggie woman. I don't need.
You, but but I don't need you. Well, okay, so you're talking about the boy cousins. What I'm hearing is your father was not there consistently, and that you learn to sell soothe and say, you know what, my father, right, I am the person maintaining this relationship is not viable without me, so I will teach myself. I don't need you, but our biological way that we're connected to our parents being the lawyers, something I would never.
Wisdom.
But this is what I'm hearing as an outsider is that you self sued and taught yourselves. I'm a g you know, and I am going to see somebody else will. But but also I'm going to take control of this relationship. I will force you to see me. I will maintain this relationship your life, whether you're maintaining it or not. I will defiantly be your daughter, despite you allowing your wife your stepmother. Yeah, and I'd rather through line. It's
not so much the boy cousins. It's this is this is what I've learned through the relationship with my father and how I relate to others, but again, how I relate to myself. I will not allow myself to feel this pain weak because I'm going to self suit and it's not Yes, it's not really the weakness. It's it's more so I am very viable, just as you are.
But I'm not going to be dependent on you validating me. I must validate myself. Now. If you validate me too, oh, we really have something going on. But if you don't, I am not going because normally what happened when people are seeking that validation from someone else, be it from a father or whoever you're weakened, you've given the control of your life to someone else, to their discression, to
their discretion. Absolutely, I can't afford to do that because I only have this what one life, I only have this one second, I only have this one day. With all of that being said, I'm going to validate me. Now. That does not mean I don't have a yearning or a desire. I do, but I do not let the desire dictate my feelings.
I think that's so beautiful because you can go through you not having a present father, biological in your household every day, and that's that's that's that's that split where it's like it can either go this way or it can either go this way. Not saying that how you process or how we process things as one hundred percent correct, but I just think that that piece that she took like I'm going to do this for me, I'm going to love me, and if you're around, you're around.
If you're not, you're not.
I still think there's a lot of strength in that, yeah, because some people can just be like, well, if my daddy doesn't love me, no one loves me, and then you hear that on the flip side where some people that are you know, prostitutes or got raped or different circumstances because you are seeking that validation. But you took the opposite way. You made it beautiful for you. And I think it's something. It's wisdom and that that's why I so love hearing from our elders here in your
sixties and life has taught you that. And I will walk away with that, with knowledge that was becacause you're what you're saying is to the extreme area. You're saying you know prostitutes and what they don't do. I am nowhere near that, but I still have sought validation on some level where it may not be pronounced. I mean I did have to. I am on the journey home to myself in my twenties. I did not have the
discernment to understand what I was doing. But even now and dealing with this man, and you know, it's like I'm drawn back to what my father taught me, you know, like make sure that you are valued. And he didn't say these words, and he just showed me these words.
My uncles is why I gotta get because when my father passed away, my uncle, my uncle Brady used to take me to dinner for every single birthday, and he had this cute little black two theater sports car, and I would get dressed up and we would go to then my dad he'd say, actually, uncle Brady, your daddy could go. And it was always just me and him, and I just felt like courty, you know, I felt
like so special. He took me to some adult dinner and it was like a black side dinner, and I went with him and I would just hear adults speaking. I remember being a little girl at the table and I had only heard this in movies. I didn't even know what it meant, but I knew I was thirsty, and I said, excuse me, everyone, I'm going to get a drink.
And everybody laugh like alcohol.
But I remember, just now what I'm going through dealing with this man and therapy and just you're not trying to figure life out. My therapist pointed out that some people, it's like, if you can convince this man to love you and the way that you want to be loved. For example, if he's like loved you but not in love with you, or if he's in love with you but not good for you, whatever that is that you can convince this man to love me and be in love with me the way that I desire, then somehow
that would make everything else make sense. And somehow you are showing yourself I am worthy. So all the other people who didn't love me before, my mother, my father, my parents loved me. But you know, as a child, you misinterpret things. My mom didn't make me feel and my dad didn't make me feel away whatever that is. And this person loving me, I will heal those wounds. And that's not how it goes. So your thought that no, I validate myself, right, I am self soothing. I'm managing
my emotions. I have not managed those things yet. I mean I'm managing them right. I am not where you have attained this wisdom, and nothing is like day spent on this earth. So I think that helps you afford this wisdom of coming home to yourself. So speaking of coming home to ourselves, we got to come home and pay some bills real quick, so I take a quick break.
But on the other side of this, I do want to get into just some of the streets of talking about when it comes to you know, these like celebrities and you know we romanticize their lives, but they also have challenges with their kids. And anyway, I'm just tired of telling all my business. So a lot of people in the business right after.
This break, so stay with us.
Okay, y'all already know the streets are talking, talking, talking. Okay, welcome back, everybody. We have not stopped talking for two seconds because we have so much talk about. But now that I told all my business, I'd like to get into somebody else's business, and that is Brian y knight. Before we went to break, I was going to ask you guys, what makes a bad dad, And sadly, Brian
McKnight comes to mind. Just for our viewers who don't know, Brian McKnight, has I feel disrespected, disregarded and discarded his children from his first marriage. Unfortunately, he has referred to
his children as a product of sin. He recently accused his ex wife of basically influencing his relationship with his now a strange son and his son I should tell you has cancer, and his son Nico tweeted when I was about to die in the hospital from complications for my cancer, I just wanted to bury the hatchet and hear from him referring to Brian McKnight. Hear from him say he loves me, and he told me no, he could not arbitrarily tell me he loves me. Still cuts
so deep. The fact that this is playing out in social media. I think it's just heartbreaking, But also it makes you question what kind of man with means and resources we treat their children that way. But it struck me with you, doctor Joy, because your stepmother influenced your relationship with your father, and so you have a unique lens into this, and I'm curious what you might say to Brian McKnight. Having been the products of a relationship like that, what would you say to him?
It would begin with he really need to evaluate why he wanted to erase that part of his life or rearrange it. Why would you call it sin? If you were married to the woman, the mother of your children, how is it now they were born of sin? Are you really speaking of yourself? Are you speaking of the relationship? There are so many layers to that. But looking at my stepmother, she made a comment. This was during the time of the burial of my grandmother, my father's mother
and my mother. My grandmother had been sick and they had to take care of her, and she made the comment she said, you know, I've had a problem with you because you ruined my perfect man. Now, given I was in my twenties when she told me this, but this was feelings that she had from my age of eight that I ruined her perfect man. How does a child ruin.
This?
I'm so ignorant. Yeah, well it's ignorant, but it says a whole lot more. Yes, because what's at the root of that is I have an idea in my mind of what it's supposed to look like, what my life is supposed to look like. So when I think of Brian McKnight, I think of the same thing that he's saying. You were born in sin so I want to erase that part of my life and this is my now life. Now does that make it right? No? I think it's very confused and.
Self hating, Like because we had Dion work on the show and she talks about why would you want to disrespect your creation? This person is a part of you, And I mean, look, I will say I will preserve everybody's privacy, but I will say I happen to know Brian m knight is an asshole, you know from first day experience.
So I think, yeah, so I.
Forgive my language, doctor Joeye No, but I don't find him to be this is a very compelling at all. Is just a person who would treat his children that way. But I'm curious your thoughts on you know, the way Brian McKnight is like just publicly disregarding his children in favor of this, even if because sometimes it is like a new relationship is a thing that's influencing your relationship with your children, and both people have to come together.
I thought Jay did a great job with this with Will's ex wife, Will Smith's ex wife that they said we had to put our differences aside and put the kids first. This doesn't even seem like that. This seems like Brian McKnight is like, I don't like your mama, so I don't like you, and that is just not a fair thing.
What are your daughts. I think it's terrible.
I feel bad for whatever way the kids are not the process through this, through life, how they're going to carry and process it. You never know how someone can internalize that, and I think that's important to shed light on. I probably resonate more or my kids. So I would say I, because I raise my kids, would probably resonate more with the sun. And that's hard. And I don't think that. I think it makes it worse that Brian meant.
Brian McKnight has a large platform, which means he has the way to reach the masses, whether it's.
Good or bad.
He's in the position of power, right, But their fathers that have no power in disregard their kids every day on a regular yeah relationship. But I wonder, you know, the kids are gonna have to heal from this publicly emotionally at home. I just don't I just don't know. Well, I am struct that well he is suggesting, And I do find this a bit striking that it's like, oh no, but the mother rejected my health. Now let's just take Ryan McKnight out of it, who we've established as an asshole.
So let's just talk about the dynamic when the mother is the person denying the father access to the children, and the father like making every effort and then being resentful because it's like, well, I can't feel this pain of not having my children. I'm mad at the mom. So I don't have anything to do with it. I need fathers to put their foot down in fight for their rights for their kids. Yeah, I'm tired of the lazy fatherhood approach. If these are their kids and you
love your kids, go to the courthouse. There's one in every county in the United States. If you love that kid and you want to see that kid, get your weekends. I don't care if they call you a weekend that you want to get Friday Sunday. Make your inprint on that child's life if you want to. But just crying about how much you want to be a dad at home or just for the fifty followers you have on Instagram,
it is not enough. Yes, it's not enough. If you are a good father, the courts will give you rights to your kids. But if you can't get off your ass and go down there and pay twenty five dollars to register for visitation for your kids, shame on you. Yeah, there's nothing to do with the mother, and it's nothing to do with the with the child. Sometimes fathers take that e that's an easy cut. Oh it's the mother,
it's the mother, No, honey, it's you. Yeah, Because there want to be a day in hell that I wouldn't fight to see my kids. Yeah, I don't care how much money I had to pay on the line to go see my kids, and it's free. Visitation is completely separate from child support.
Yeah.
A lot of men like to say, oh they overlap, I don't hear my child's word. I can't see them. There's not one state where that overlaps. Not paying your child support does not negate you visitation rights to your kids. Yeah, it hurts the mother because I feel like you should financially help pay for soccer. But just because you don't does not mean that I don't let you see your kid Friday through Saturday.
But you are a special mother. There are some mothers who really use their children as a weapons. Yeah, and that does hurt, yes, the children. Yeah, that's very very important, and I think that's what we're talking about.
But I think what your point though, is taken the book Kids First. You know, your father had an obligation to you, regardless of what your stepmother was doing, to put you first.
And I go ahead, and I agree with that, but I also I'm going to go way you back just a little bit. And that is where you were talking about how you saw the dynamics of some of your characteristics behavior correct? Okay, what was he shown? Who is he right?
For me?
I have many characteristics of my father, even though I wasn't raised in the house with him, and it is conflict avoidance is one and with that that was also his role. So do I really hold him guilty because for him, he was trying to minimize the conflict in the home that he was in. When it comes to adults, an adults, an adult and a child as a child, I want to have the parents to perform correctly or properly or the way that I want them to feel. But if the dynamics does not provide for that, what
do I do? Do I leave my now home for the one. I wouldn't have wanted that either, because that would not have been the right way when you can't put the one first because we're always doing trade office basically what I'm saying, Sometimes you can make the compromise, but sometimes you can't if you selected a partner who really is not on board. Now, one of the things that my mother did when she married my stepfather, she
told me, I come as a package deal. Amen. If you do not accept my full package, you don't accept me you don't accept me. That's different. Yeah. Everyone, do not put that that front street. Yeah, you know, make that a part of the deal. They do not propose that. They go for Okay, I want you, you want me, we'll get married and then we'll work everything out on the back end. You know, you need to actually have that on the front end. And I think to just
go a step deeper our community. You know, like this is credo in the black community is there is no child who is just somebody child. A black child is everybody's child.
If I see a kid walking down the street and this code ain't got a hat on, I'm like that maybe need a hat on.
You know, my grandmother every child was hers.
You know, every child you have right to get gathered to parents if they weren't doing something right on the playgrounds, Black parents, everybody, every black child on there is their responsibility. So it's just striking to me to see this man publicly discard his children. It's just so unfortunate. But I think to your point, though, doctor Joy, put the kids first.
That's what it's about.
I think what you're saying, and listen, area, you gave us a whole psaut.
I think that's lazy. And then I think it doesn't matter how the parents fell out.
Kids benefit if both parents can be in their life positively. Because I'm not saying to have someone around who's you know, doing doing the worst. But if two positive parents can stay in child's life even after separating, the statistics are just different. Child. That's what it's supposed to be about. You're supposed to want better for your kids. My time is going to end. My only job is to make
sure they turn out to be good people. So I need to do whatever I can and put as many people in their path that gives them the best odds to be good people. Yeah, that's why I I love that.
I agree.
Well, I thank you ladies for sharing your stories. I really hope you know this is a show that centers black women.
Each week.
I have an elder, a younger, and me, but I welcome black men and really all men, everybody. You know, we censor black women. We're not exclusively for black women. I think there's something to be learned from these conversations, and I truly hope fathers hear what you both share, because what we want to say to you men is you are needed. We need our fathers. You have such an important role to play in our lives and determine how we interact with other men, how we interact with
platonic friendships. But like I said, the most important role is how we interact with ourselves and our relationship with our parents. Both mother and father play a significant role. So I want to salute all the dads, biological or otherwise who are out there doing the damn thing handling your business. We see you, we honor you, and thank
you for that. And for those of you who are not, it is never too If you have been absent for weeks or years or decades, pick up the phone, make that call, do the outreach, find your children and build that relationship, and stand firm and strong when your kids have to confront you with the absentee challenges they've had. Yes, in your absence, they have gone through things, and so you have to be prepared to say that face that receive it. But there is joy on the other side
of that. So thank you all for tuning into this episode of Across Generations.
I think my.
Guests cam being so transparent in your stories, and I thank you all for let me tell all my business yet days of this episode and we'll see you next time. Across Generations is brought to you by Wilpacker and Wilpacker Media in partnership with iHeart Podcasts, I'm Your Host and executive producer Tiffany d Cross from Idea to Launch Productions Executive producer Carla Willmeret. Produced by Mandy Be and Angel Forte.
Editing Down Design and mixed by Gaza Forte. Original music by Epidemic Sound Video editing by Kaithon Alexander incre