Welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast . I'm your host , Nick Grizzle , joined by co-host Jeffrey Pepper Rogers , who , you may know , won the 2008 John Lennon Songwriting Contest with his country tune Fly . This episode is all about songwriting competitions . We're joined by Abby Posner , Rachel Garcia, and Thu Tran .
Abby Posner has been a working musician in Los Angeles for the past 18 years . She is the grand prize winner of the 2023 USA Songwriting Competition with William H Carpenter for their song Get Loud . Rachel Garcia and Thu Tran write , record, and perform together as The Singer and the Songwriter .
They won the West Coast Songwriters International Song Contest for their song the Art of Missing You . Our candid roundtable discussion explores the impact contests have on musicians' careers , the highs and lows of participating in these events and what role , if any , competition plays in the creative process .
Be sure to check out the links in our show notes to learn more about our guests and their music . You'll also find the link to support the Acoustic Guitar Podcast on Patreon , that's patreon dot com slash acousticguitarplus . If you can't make a pledge at this time , you can also support the show by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts .
Thanks for listening and for chipping in if you can . We begin with Jeffrey Pepper Rogers asking Abby Posner why she started entering songwriting competitions .
What was your goal when you started to enter contests ? What were you hoping for , I mean , aside from the obvious which is to win ? But what were you aiming to accomplish ?
Yeah , so I've been writing music for a long time . I've been at this for a little over 15 years and I never really even thought to apply for these things .
To be honest , I was really focused on touring and I was really focused on sync licensing and so I honestly didn't even really think to go this route until I first applied the John Lennon Songwriting Competition and then I just thought , well , why not , it's just an extra bonus .
So I never have written songs specifically for songwriting competitions and that's something that's . It's almost like you have to change your mind frame a little bit , almost like writing songs for sync licensing . I write songs from the heart as an artist, and then when I'm writing songs for briefs for music supervisors in sync placements , it's kind of a different .
I'm writing from a different place . So I never really thought to write specifically for a contest .
Yeah , but it just so happens that this last song that I wrote with my co-writer , Will Carpenter , won the USA Songwriting Competition and we were specifically writing because it was a cause we were very passionate about and it was art to raise awareness and to bring to make sure that people felt heard and seen that weren't .
So was that written specifically for the competition ?
No , not at all . We had no intention of winning any prizes . We were writing kind of with a little bit of a sync . He's one of my co-writers I write licensing music with , but we really just want . We were feeling a lot of rage at the time . This was after Roe v Wade , you know , got overturned and we both just sat down and wrote a song .
And Rachel and Thu , how about you ?
We've always been independent musicians . It's always just been the two of us . So I think one of the intentions of submitting for these competitions was to feel supported , was to garner support from a larger institution . We've always felt a bit stuck to sort of move our career forward .
Like, as we grow as artists, our career has often not followed , and so I think we saw it as one of the avenues to gain outside support . So it wasn't just the two of us really hustling , but just getting this like outside and , I think , also some validation from the industry and from folk music .
It's sort of this like outside stamp that says we actually like , approve of these two people and we think that they're good , and so that sort of . . .
It's just sort of like on your website , you know this little mark , or it's on your social media, and I think when people are booking you , even if they don't know what the competition is , they sort of have this like outside , institutional validation of like 'we approve of these two people , you can trust them ,' and so I think I think we were searching for
that as well .
How do you pick which songs to enter ? If you're not writing specifically for this contest , say any given contest , how do you choose which song ? Is there something in particular about a song that kind of stands out as this would be good for a competition ?
Yeah , I think that you kind of go through , at least for me, I go through my album and I think about what's the hook , what's the catchiest , biggest hook ?
I also think about genre and which , because I write a lot of different genres in my on my albums and so I'm thinking , well , what's gonna be like the biggest thing that can grab somebody's ear and make them want more ? And I'm really specifically focusing in on choruses , making sure that it's a little bit of an anthem , something that is an earworm .
The last song that Will and I submitted is a very big , almost anthem piece . We've been submitting it for sports games and arenas and I think that that was something that perhaps caught the ear of the contest was that it was big , it had a theme , it had a message and there it was very . . . You know , we both produced it and we both kind of added .
I added a more organic , natural element to that production , while Will took the reins and added more of an electronic feel .
And I think that when you work together as a team it really boosts your chances , because I'm a lone wolf producer normally and I just he just makes me sound better because he's a different person and he's approaching music in a different way . So I think it's this song one , because it was a collaboration of two very different minds .
Yeah , and that's Get Loud . Was that one right ?
Abby: That's that's right . Yeah , "gGet Loud . I relate to it . Abby shared . A lot goes into it a lot of conversations about what they would like , what they would respond to , what the specific audience in that region might respond to , for instance , like the Curville Folk Festival is gonna be like a really different choice than something that's national .
I think for us we definitely choose what we think is our best song Songs that we wrote almost kind of split , so songs that feel like we both had a heavy hand in , and then , I think , songs that are general enough that people can sort of overlay their own story and life onto the meaning of this song , and then specific enough that it's like interesting .
So we call that in our band , we call that telescoping . So a band , so a song that really has that like granular detail , we call it thinginess , like the stuff and the details of a song , so someone's really interested , but also like a general enough message that it could fit many people's like lives and stories .
I love that so much . I totally agree with you on that , Rachel . That's like that's , and that's also just an incredible thing for sync . You know , like if you have universal lyrics that are kind of like we don't really know what the song is about , even though the writers are like , this is a very important message to us .
It could mean something so different to everyone , and I really agree with what you said there for sure .
Oh , I was going to say that it's something I learned from Rachel as a writer . Rachel's a poet and that , like I think the kind of anthemic stuff is like what I would have always logically been like , oh , something really catchy is what people are going to like . But I've learned from Rachel and her writing is so specific .
I'm always like that's so specific , like no one's who's going to relate to that , but it's -without getting kind of too like shop talky about it- like there's something about thinking .
When you're talking about , like , choosing a song for the songwriting competition , you're up against a bunch of people , right , if it's an online submission , then it's tons more people . But like , all these writers are writing songs and sometimes it's that really specific moment of the lyric-- that's really what differentiates you .
So it's they're never going to remember the title or whatever . But if there's some detail in there , they're like oh yeah , it's that song and it's got like an egg in it . You know , like that's all that's needed to be , like that kind of sifts to the top .
Yeah , I was just going to add from my own experience , because I , after writing songs for several decades , I had this feeling about entering the John Lennon Songwriting Contest and I wound up winning for this song .
But there was this very specific feeling that I had about that song , that most of the stuff that I had written felt very tied to my idiosyncratic style as a guitarist , as a singer , and there was something about this song that I wrote that felt more like elemental , like I could hear a bunch of people maybe grabbing it and singing it a little bit more .
I don't know it's . It's it's related to the universal element that you're talking about , but it's also about , maybe , something that other people could perform to and I was like , ok , I'm going to enter this and it seemed to be a good instinct and , you know , lightning struck on my first time out with that . But it kind of .
It leads to another question that I wanted to ask you all to , which is about categories , about genre . So in my own experience , I wound up entering the country category , even though I've never , ever considered myself a country songwriter . But that song that's what it was , you know , was based on a fiddle tune , part of it and it was .
You know it was based in bluegrass and country , but a lot of times choosing a genre is different . I mean there's folk and there's Americana , and there's singer- songwriter . I mean, songs can be looked at in so many ways . So how do you figure where you're going to mean , along with choosing the song , what box are you going to put it in ?
Yeah , that's a really good question . I think that's where I struggle sometimes because I am so inspired by . I mean , I love music , period . I just love all music and I'm so influenced by soul and Americana and folk and rock and pop and sometimes I'll just splatter that all on a page .
This song that Will and I wrote happened to be a very rock kind of alternative song , which is a little bit outside of my category . I tend to write more folk and Americana .
We did have a little tinge of a banjo in there , but Will was the one that submitted and and it was submitted under alternative rock and I would have never and none of my other songs would fit that category . So it was . It was wise that he submitted under that , you know . So it was , yeah , that . I think that was . That was part of the winning deal .
If we had done Americana , I don't know , I don't know that we would have won .
That's such a great point , Abby . I think it made me think . I think one of the things you're choosing in choosing the genre to compete in is to choose who your competitors are , because I feel like in some ways this just makes me think like music is such a hard thing to make compete , like it's kind of antithetical to how I feel about music .
and I think about it sort of like it's like the Westminster dog show , because , all dogs are good dogs . How pure they are in their category is not why I love dogs , you know . So to like , judge it on , like it's for it's like .
That's not the point , of dogs man .
And if I'm gonna like be labor that metaphor, I feel like our music's like a mutt and it has no place winning any of these things . But if it's going to be considered , that's pretty nice you know , yeah , yeah , it's wonderful .
I love that so much . I really really love that . We think of our song as a mutt too , because it's a little bit of everything you know well , those are the best dogs . Those are the best dogs , although I do have a . I have a purebred , I have a basset hound , but he is a rescue , so don't judge there .
I just wanted to double back to ask when entering , because we've made a few references here to the recordings and I know contests are different in terms of whether they want a very produced recording or something simpler or . But how do you think about that ? You know , do you , do you feel like is a simple demo going to be okay , maybe for some contest ?
Do you feel like you want something that's more really studio release worthy ?
For me . I love producing and so I and this is again , this is just my own personal experience I don't make anything half I would . I would personally never submit an unfinished demo .
I also just love the process of producing and I want to make it as good as I possibly can and I always want to challenge myself to be better on each song and on each album and I want to challenge myself to grow as an artist and as a producer . So personally , I steer away from unfinished or just kind of raw demos .
Some of the stuff that I produce in general is a little bit raw , but it's on purpose , because I like that gritty , the grittiness . But I would , I would definitely always submit at least a final mix , if not a final master , and that's just . That's just me .
I agree with that .
I think we've mostly only submitted completed mastered songs and I think it just and I know many competitions don't require that and I think if you're treating it like a game which kind of it is right it's a contest , that you're thinking about the other players as well and it's just you want it to hold up against other people who might would be , you know ,
submitting a fully finished mastered thing , and so it might not do your song that many favors . But again , yeah , there are plenty of like great songs and that lo-fi kind of demo quality is part of its appeal .
But I try to put myself in the the headspace of the judges if they're listening back to , back to things you know , sometimes it's like it's super quiet or it's grainy or it's just popping noises and and that can get you out of the zone and yeah , although some some of the competition I guess I'm thinking in particularly like of the Kerville , is you two Rachel
and and two you .
You went down to Kerrville , right , you were part of that competition , so they have . I was actually just looking over their , their , their contest rules and they make this .
They say in all caps , I think you know make sure the lyrics are really clear and and they want it and they're very strict about it has to be two people maximum , two people on stage stripped down .
So , as I understand it , that whole competition , kerville , is you don't submit a song , you go and you perform and then that's your entry , right ?
No , you submit a song and then you get . If you're a finalist , you go down and and perform .
It's like the Super Bowl in that town . It was an kind of unbelievable experience that we were sort of warned about , but it was really something to see it unfold over two days . Yeah , you submit songs and then you play your entries . JPR: and there's what Thu: there's 24 finalists and six winners .
You mentioned that it was like the Super Bowl . Can you walk us through those couple days ?
Oh my gosh yeah . So it's hot , it's like over 100 . And then so all of the theaters are outside . The days that you perform are . You're in an outdoor amphitheater , so so is the audience , so there's a real advantage to going early in the day .
Okay , kerrville , texas , and I think what I mean about the Super Bowl is there's a lot of sort of feverishness about this competition , both among the people who've made it into the 24 and among the people attending .
It has a really long legacy , and I remember sitting in the audience watching my fellow participants and seeing everyone around me had paper and pencil and they were marking notes on their , on their sheet of paper , and sort of grading the songs as we were , as I was watching people play .
And , to be clear , there are judges . The audience is not judging , but they are taking notes as if they are .
Yeah , there's a bit of like a leaderboard feeling and I remember sitting , you know , the people around me not knowing that I was going to be performing and watching this happen , and it just sort of the pressure was just sort of mounting in that way .
I also knew that we were like day two at the end of the day and so I was like , oh no , everyone's going to be so tired , they would have maybe already slotted in their six , you know , in their minds so we'd have to like essentially unseat someone from like the six potential winners they were holding in their minds .
This is also to say like it's like the Super Bowl , because I know nothing about sports or athleticism , so that's probably as close to a competitive sports game as I'll ever get to compete .
It's like a dog show . I'm closer .
I will . I have more chance of competing in a dog show than in a Super Bowl .
And yet the other part of that and I know it's you know there are other contests that also have this , that are around events , so you have a bunch of songwriters coming together and you know the community aspect of of them .
You know , like also in Colorado , like the Rocky Mountain Folk Festival or the Telluride festivals that have these events and so a lot of chance to meet other songwriters , to kind of .
You know you're competing against each other but I'm wondering , has it had experiences that sort of made you where that community aspect of it was meaningful , where you sort of feel like , well , this is my , my tribe , you know , make connections that are that turn out to be something that that you know you come back to in another way , outside of the contest ?
Yeah , I think like to contrast that what Rachel is describing , we stayed at the Kerrville Folk Festival for a week after the competition and it was that was the whole thing for us . Like to be able to sit around a campfire , Like it was such a stark contrast to like feeling that amount of adrenaline and stuff about that comp , the competitive aspect of it .
It just felt so antithetical to music .
And then , once we were so relieved , once it was over , and then the week after , sitting around a campfire with all of the other you know competition quote unquote and just like enjoying their songs , playing music together , jamming on each other's songs , learning each other's songs , playing covers together , Like I was like , oh yeah , that's that's the point , Like
that's so much the value of this .
Do you feel that that community aspect as well within ? You know the songwriting competition community . Do you do you ever chat with other people who participated in them ? Or you know trade tips or horror stories or anything like that ?
I think that what Rachel and two are talking about is like being in person with people and and seeing them live and having an experience together . I've I've only said I have submitted to Kerrville and I've submitted to , I think , the new song competition and haven't gotten in .
But I think that there's the only thing I can compare it to is like getting a showcase at , you know , like Americana Fest , like we had a showcase in Nashville and we got to meet other showcase artists and have that kind of bond , um .
Or or having a showcase at Folk Alliance , which , which we do this year as well , um , because you're in person and you're you're like , you're just , you're in a space together and you're getting to know each other and you're playing music and you're supporting each other .
And I think that the difference is is the ones that uh , this recent one that we won , it was online and you know we're not in a space together and like celebrating and um , meeting other people in other categories in person . So I think the in person effect is very special with Kerrville and uh new song and these other , you know , performing competitions .
Do you ever get feedback from uh , you know the judges or or anything in these competitions ? I mean ?
yeah , there was one time I got feedback from , I think , the international acoustic songwriting competition , which I was like a runner up for Um , and yeah , there was . There was some good constructive criticism and also things that they really liked . I think for that one , but I don't .
I don't actually know if we got feedback on the the USA songwriting competition .
I think there was one um competition through Nashville Songwriters Association um that did have a panel and they gave anonymous feedback and it was interesting . Specific to that , it was a Nashville based uh competition it was , but it was only online submission so anybody could submit , but you really got us .
I think to me feedback says just as much about the feedback giver as the feedback receiver , and so , like it was really interesting to hear what Nashville songwriters like valued and like they were really um looking for , like stronger choruses , stronger hooks and like the type of folk storytelling that our music is mostly based around .
You know , I would , you know , even like the strongest of choruses that I think it's like it's it's not catchy enough for them , and so that was really interesting feedback to hear another person's perspective of , but their perspective also being really informed by the , the sliver of the industry that they are experts in , you know .
Well , I wonder , uh , talking about having that , um , credential , and I have to say that's it is very meaningful , and there's this basic reality that there are a zillion songwriters out there and you know , if you have that , that stamp does mean something . You know , my John Lennon songwriting contest win was in 2008 . It's still right at the top of my bio .
You know , in , in , in talking about the value of , of having that sort of credential , are there specific things that you feel like doors that have opened for you a gig that you've gotten , a connection that you've made that has happened in part as a result of of this , or is that just too hard to trace ?
I think it's like unseen stuff . Like you know , I put out an album recently , uh , had a PR campaign , a radio campaign , this win , you know , like there's all these different things kind of happening simultaneously and you don't know if it's because of this win or it's because , oh hey , I heard this one song on the radio . Um , but I think it's .
It's kind of like when you put something into the world , you know it's this kind of whirlwind of activity starts to happen around it , whether it's very minuscule or not , like the word of mouth , whatever it is . So I do wonder sometimes well , why did I get that opportunity ? Was it because of the of the win ? Why am I booking that festival now ?
Is it because they saw that ? But they won't ? Ever I haven't had somebody say directly hey , abby , I saw that you won the USA Songwriting Competition . Will you come and play , you know , mild music or whatever festival it might be . I just think that there's like , whenever you this is what I encourage artists to do is just like keep putting things out there .
There's , it creates movement in some way .
Maybe it's really it's just getting past that you know that gate , where then somebody's gonna decide to dig in a little deeper . I mean , whatever happens is gonna be based on your music , you know , not based on a credential itself , right ?
Yeah , I mean it's unfortunate . I think right now we're living in a time where streaming is so prominent . People look at Spotify plays and they look at followers and they like that's how they judge if you're good enough or not . But yeah , there is something to be said for all of these things .
If you have that as a credential , I think that it certainly doesn't hurt . I just don't know if that's why I've gotten certain opportunities . I'm not sure .
I think I relate to what you're saying around . It sort of whips up some energy . We also haven't had like really direct feedback that it's like .
This is why we often think of like the main goal of a gig that we have is to get another gig from that gig , and it's sort of just by putting yourself into those situations and sort of engaging with it , it I don't know it's it kind of opens this like air stream of more things , but I don't know that there has been like a direct pointed boost .
Yeah , and I think about that . It isn't like some . There's like some marketing adage where it's like it takes people like three times of seeing something to recognize it or legitimize it . And I feel like putting yourself , even if you're a finalist and you don't win .
There's these blasts of these little cycles of like , well , the new song finalists are announced , and then it's the competition , and then it's the winner is announced and you're kind of lumped in and I kind of imagine a mysterious listener out there being like the singer and the songwriter huh who ?
And then a month later the singer and the songwriter with the curvil , and then they're like God , keep hearing about the singer and the songwriter who the heck are they ? And I would hope that some being kind of looped into that , that those little cycles , just helps to kind of subconsciously enter into people's minds .
I also feel like it sort of gives your fans that have been with you , those true fans , something to be really excited about .
You know it's January and so for the last decade there's been like the tiny desk right that we often send something in for , and we've been sort of noticed by the tiny desk like a couple of times , like into , like a top five nature , like outdoor They'll do like a feature .
Yeah , some feature , but obviously not a winner , and we'll sort of send that out as like here's this new song that we've submitted for this . But I think in sort of tech translation , people think of our fans that we've won .
So there's always a couple of people that write us and they're like I love it , I'm so excited , like I knew it , congratulations , I knew it and we try to correct them .
But it's this really sweet thing of like oh , I've hitched my wagon to the right band and sort of like this is my team and so I don't know , there's a bit of like a boost for everyone that's with you , like I know that , like my mom , when this happens , she's really lifted . You know , like it just sort of it creates this .
I just think of like airplane wing lift like around everyone that's sort of supporting you is like really pumped about these little things , however little they might be . It makes them feel like they invested in the right place , I think . Abby: super well said .
I totally agree with that .
I think that it's like you send out a mailing list with the announcement and people are like , oh my gosh , amazing , we knew it , like we've been following you since 2010 or whatever , and they get so pumped because they are exactly like Rachel said , like you're along for the ride with this band and you've seen them through highs and lows and it's just like a
win for them . I love that . It's so true . I felt that I felt so much love and I felt so lifted up by my fans when I announced this , you know .
That's the end of part one . The conversation continues on our Patreon page . The Acoustic Guitar podcast is brought to you by the team at Acoustic Guitar Magazine . I'm your host , nick Grizzle , joined for this episode by Jeffrey Pepper Rogers . The Acoustic Guitar podcast is directed and edited by Joey Lusterman . Tony Gonzalez is our producer .
Executive producers are Lyzy Lusterman and Stephanie Campos Dal Broi . Our theme song was composed by Adam Pearlmutter and performed for this episode by Thu Tran . If you enjoy this podcast and want to support us , visit our Patreon page at patreoncom , slash acoustic guitar plus or find the link in the show notes for this episode .
As a supporter , you'll have access to exclusive bonus episodes , along with other special perks and if you're already a patron . Thank you so much for your support .