622: Duplicate Garbage Generation Process

So it turns out I am tired, and it is entirely my fault this time. What'd you do? I decided this would be a good day to get all of my medical to-do items done. And so not only does that include a trip to the dentist, which is never fun, but I also now have four new holes poked in me, I think. Oh lovely. Three different vaccines and a blood test.

I'm in line for my shingles vaccine now that I'm 50. Oh, congratulations. So exciting. More vaccines open up to me. I think I have to get that one twice. Yeah. Do you have a party for that? That's fun. If you haven't had chicken pox, what you get instead is the chicken pox vaccine that prevents you from ever getting chicken pox. But too late for old people. Didn't exist when we were kids. The problems of being born in the 1900s.

All right, we have a bunch of follow-up to go through. We have a lot of AirPod-related follow-up. This is so funny to me, in a good way. I almost didn't talk about this because I thought maybe I'm an idiot. Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't understand these noises and so on and so forth.

And this actually got quite a bit of traction, both in terms of feedback and some other stuff, which we'll talk about in a minute. But we have thanks to the magic of friend of the show, Guy Rambeau. And you might know Guy because of AirBuddy.

which does a lot of really fancy and fun Bluetooth stuff with your Mac and other devices. Also, what was the name of the keyboard silencer thing that we've been talking about on and off for the last few weeks? Is it keyboard buddy? Is everything buddy? I think that's right. I think it is keyboard buddy or something like that. It's a very friendly category of software. It is very friendly, and so is Guy. Anyway, thanks to Guy, we have actually...

some sample audio that we can play for you. And thanks to Marco, it should play not only for John and I, but more importantly, for those of you listening, even those of you listening live. So we're going to go through a bunch of feedback. And the funny thing about this feedback is I am...

Pretty darn confident that we have discovered the genesis of one of the, or actually two of the noises, one of which I was talking about, one of which I wasn't. But there's yet another noise that I'm still not sure what the genesis, what the...

purposes for this noise. Let me get to the feedback. Zach says, I have the same model of AirPods Pro as Casey, and I feel like there was a firmware update in the last few months that introduced a new noise because I never heard it before, which tracks what I was experiencing as well.

Sounds a lot like what Casey described. Turns out that noise is to let you know that the case has 40% or less battery left. You can turn off case charging sounds, but then you don't get the chime when it starts charging. I... I am not saying this with confidence, but I believe that this is what Marco will play for you now, which is so that like trailing off noise is I.

Think the case saying, hey, I need to be charged now, please. And there's actually a little bit of knowledge-based articles that we'll talk about in a moment. indicates that there is a noise that does this, but doesn't indicate which noise does this. I'll tell you, I've heard this noise for years now, occasionally. I never assumed that's what it meant. It might be what it means, but I have just, oh, I put my AirPods in the case.

sometimes i guess actually before you go on let me just address something that zach pointed out that a lot of other people point out as well uh that you can turn off uh case charging sounds right this annoys me so much i think about airpods and i think i complained about before and i will do it

again uh whenever i read anything like this like oh there's some setting in airpods i should go change that because i was like you know what i don't i don't really benefit from the case charging noises i should probably just turn them off but guess what you can't Unless the AirPods are connected to your phone. And that drives me insane. It's like, Apple, just give me the UI. And then the next time they connect, set the settings in. So I have to go get the AirPods.

puts them in my ear, open up the phone, oh, there's my AirPods, and now I can turn off case charging. So anyway, if you don't feel like you benefit from hearing noises from your case, which I don't think I do because I'm pretty good about keeping things charged, you can turn it off, but you do have to connect your AirPods and then the AirPods show up at the top of all of your settings and you dig into them and you can find this.

That is very true. And there actually will be a link in the show notes about where you can do this, if I'm not mistaken. But Marco, if you wouldn't mind playing that same one one more time, please. So that's one of them, which we believe to be the case is mostly discharge sound. But there's another one. And this one, I'm still not entirely clear what this is. Marco, if you please.

I think that might mean that there's some sort of I'm not charging situation going on. Yeah, like one of the earbuds has poor contact or something. Yeah, that sounds like an error. We all agree, and I think that's what it is. But I've heard and read no specific confirmation that that's the case. That's just a theory.

But that being said, Tom French writes, Hey Casey, I think the sad sound your case makes is telling you that the case charges below some level and needs to be charged. I find this helpful to not end up with uncharged AirPods because I forgot to charge the case. It may be the same sad sound the AirPods make when their batteries are low. but I'm not sure.

It's not. The orange light, when nothing is in the case, tells you it is not fully charged. Green indicates fully charged. Orange with AirPods in the case tells you the AirPods are still charging. Green tells you the AirPods are fully charged.

I was aware of the orange and green for when the AirPods were in the case. I didn't realize that if you do the same motion, if you open the case while the AirPods are in your ears or just out of the case, I suppose, that the light now serves... as the case status, which was a bit of news to me.

Continuing on, Ian Williamson writes, you reminded me of a noise that I've been meaning to investigate with my AirPods Pro 2 recorded here when I put one AirPod back in the case with the other. You can hear the sad charging noise overlaid with the case closing snap, but about 15 seconds later, you can also hear what appears to be...

be a diagnostic sound coming from the AirPods inside the case. It was driving me mad for a while as I kept hearing the sound, but I couldn't figure out where it was coming from. So I'm going to have Marco play this in just a moment. I will tell you that by no fault of Marco's, this is a little bit shrill. So if you have the... to turn your volume down just for a moment, I might recommend it. So Marco, why don't you play it like twice, please, if you don't mind?

This is apparently a sound that's played only when the case is closed, only when the AirPods are in the case. And this is quoting from a knowledge-based article that we'll put in the show notes. To help ensure that your AirPods microphones and speakers are operating at their best, for example, to help provide high-quality hearing test results, your AirPods may periodically play a quiet chime when they're in their charging case. I have heard this from time to time.

had not a damned idea what the hell it was. And so I am very thankful for Ian Williamson and others who have written in with this. This was not one of the noises I was talking about last week, but I am genuinely happy to know what exactly this is. So again, we'll put a link to Ian's little video recording on Mastodon in the show notes, as well as the knowledge-based article that mentions this.

Then, as John had mentioned earlier, you can turn off the charging sounds, and there's also some information about the light. This is a different Knowledge Base article, which we also put in the show notes. Quoting from that, when your AirPods aren't in your case, the light shows the status of your case. means fully charged, which is what we thought earlier, and amber, or what I called orange, means less than one full charge remains, which I did not know until I read this. That was very useful.

This ended up getting picked up by MacRumors. And so we actually inspired an entire article on MacRumors. And it's so wild for me personally, because again, this was the thing I was barely even going to bother talking about. And then Julie Clover made an article out of it on MacRumors.

And so, among other things, Julie writes, information on the mysterious chime was highlighted on Mastodon after Apple's unclear AirPods sounds were discussed on what's now last week's ATP podcast. Then finally, somebody who listens to the show who goes by Patch.

said, after listening to your most recent episode, I put together airpodnoises.net, a super simple site that has the various AirPod noises you can go through and play to work out what they are. The only one I believe I'm missing at the moment is the new shake head and nod head sounds from AirPods Pro 2 and AirPods.

four, but I will hopefully add those soon. And actually, Patch, at the time last I looked, it doesn't have a couple of these noises that we talked about earlier today, but I don't know, maybe Patch will slice and dice them out of the recorded version of this episode. I don't know. But...

For the day-to-day noises, this is what I was hoping to see on Apple's website, and I didn't. So, Patch, thanks for rescuing Apple. Apple hasn't figured out how to play audio on the web yet, but we'll get to it. They've reinvented scrolling in many different ways, but never...

audio yes right uh but anyway thank you uh to everyone thank you to gi thank you to marco for being dj for me and thank you to everyone for writing in this this had a lot more traction like i said than i realized which makes me feel good that i'm not the only dope in the world so go team All right, John, more TV at CES news slash follow-up. What's going on?

This one snuck in after we recorded. I saw this news, so I think we just missed it at recording time. I don't know why these guys don't get all their announcements done all at once, but they don't. They tend to trickle out over the course of CES, so I think this is probably the last one. This is from Hisense, a Chinese television manufacturer, usually known for making not-so-expensive displays with very impressive specs. They're kind of an upstart.

anyway they have a television which i believe is called the 116 ux that was the name that stuck on the plate underneath it on its display but a lot of the videos that we will link in the show notes don't actually say the name of the tv but anyway It's, as the name might imply, a 116-inch television. It is very large. Its innovation is what they are calling, what they are branding, trichroma. led backlight which is as the name sounds a backlight that uses three different colors now

With a regular mini LED TV or mini LED screen in your MacBook Pro or whatever, what they mean is that the backlight, instead of being just one big giant light, is a bunch of smaller lights. And usually the more the better because you want those backlight regions to be small because the way it works is...

it turns on the backlight regions behind the areas of the screen that are lit up and turns them off or turns them down below the areas that are darker. The screen has millions of tiny little pixels on it. The backlight...

maybe there's hundreds thousands ten thousands but you know the screen has millions right so the backlights are maybe you know one inch by one inch or one centimeter by one centimeter or a large television a few inches by a few inches right and obviously the pixels are very very tiny

This is one of the disadvantages of minimal LED screens, because you can't just light up an individual pixel. If you want one white pixel on a field of black, you've got to light up the entire giant backlight behind that one pixel, and then it bleeds through and yada yada, right? Well, the innovation on this screen is instead of the backlights being white or blue LEDs, which is the two things they predominantly use, they use white because it's convenient and they use blue because...

They can turn the blue into the other colors in a quantum dot front layer, and they let the blue straight through for the blue subpixel, and then they turn it into red and green with quantum dots. Anyway, instead of the backlight being all one color...

Every backlight region, every square in the dynamic backlight has an RG and a B. you know rgb led lights that combine if you turn them on they make a white backlight but you can also obviously make it a colored backlight so one thing that television manufacturers have been doing in demos uh either for real or faking it

is they will i think sony did this for real with uh last uh sometime during 2024 where they basically show you a television screen where one half of the screen is the whole screen has the uh the liquid crystal display layer

And then the backlight behind that and, you know, the whole stack. Right. But the other part of the screen does not have the LCD. So there is no liquid crystal display over it. It is just the backlight regions. Right. And whatever like filters and polarizers and stuff they have.

to show off how good their backlight is right what they want to show you is like okay well here's what the screen looks like but you know even just looking at the backlight you can kind of make out what the picture is because our backlight regions are so small and there are so many of them and we do such a good job of blending them so they don't look like little lit up squares or whatever see isn't that impressive well

Hisense did the same thing. I don't know if it was for real, like they peeled away the physical layers of their screen or if they faked it by just showing video. But either way, you can follow the links that will be in the show notes and see it. You can see on the left the actual color image of the screen and on the right what is supposedly just the backlight and what just the backlight looks like

is a really blurry color version of the screen because the backlight itself has colors in it. And that obviously makes the backlight look closer to what is on the screen and also helps the color purity of the individual pixels. uh what they claim for this is that it covers 97 of the bt220 color space which is a very large color space that no television has come close to covering all of close to any television has ever gotten was qd oled which is around 75 80 of bt2020 and this is 90

seven percent so this has the best color volume of i was going to say before i finished filling in these show notes the best color volume of any consumer television uh and this television goes up to 10 000 nits so they don't say what size uh what the window size is for that like how much of the screen is lit up

So this is very impressive, right? OLEDs still have the advantage in terms of they can light up every individual pixel. They don't need to deal with this backlight stuff. But the color purity they're achieving here has surpassed OLED, which is very impressive. Then I got to the video, which came out, I think, just earlier today. The first one to say a price for the television. And it's $30,000. Oh, cool. My excitement has been severely tempered.

uh but because i thought like it's a mini led television it's 116 inches there have been 115 100 inch 98 inch like it's not it's not unreasonable size and the tech that it was using it's like oh it's mini led but they have rgb backlights uh but yes thirty thousand dollars so

So that's not great. But still, impressive showing. Samsung and TCL also have similar tech in the works. I also remember back before I bought my first flat screen television, like I was going from my... I had bought a used 34-inch Sony Vega CRT that weighed a hojillion pounds, and I was going to buy my first flat panel TV, and I was looking at what's on the market for flat panel TVs.

And at one point, I was really enamored with Sony's... led backlit LCD televisions of the day and I believe they also used RGB backlights like incredibly primitive like I think they look like actual big like you know Christmas tree light

you know rg and a b right uh i ended up getting a panasonic plasma as my first flat screen television uh but i remember this tech being existing back then as well and like i said samsung and tcl are also investigating it i don't know why it's so expensive it seems like if it has a similar number of backlight regions as a regular mini led tv making them rgb shouldn't increase the cost that much but whatever anyway as an aside as part of watching the videos that we will link about this

One of the videos mentioned that this new television, this Hisense 116 UX, comes with a MediaTek Pentonic 800 chipset, which finally supports... Four full bandwidth HDMI 2.1 ports. Just in time for HDMI 2.2 to be announced. They've done it. MediaTek now sells a part that can handle four full bandwidth HDMI 2.1 ports. So in theory, companies other than LG...

and Samsung could have televisions with four full bandwidth HDMI 2.1 ports in 2025. Now, I'm sorry, to fill in a little background here, I'm going to go with what my understanding is and just interrupt me whenever you're ready. So there is... parts manufacturer that does kind of the IO for many, many, many different TV manufacturers and they're like most common version of this IO board.

only supports like one or two HDMI ports at 2.1. Is that right? And then like every other HDMI port is neutered by comparison. Is that fair? It's not just their most common, their best one.

that you couldn't buy one from them that supported for for years you get two of the good ports and then you know two not so great ports and then and you know like i said lg does their own chips and i think samsung does as well and they've supported four hdmi 2.1 ports for years and every other company that just buys this MediaTek chip, there wasn't anything for them to buy.

to support it but this year there is now will tv makers buy the new media tech chip or will they keep using the old ones we'll see i'm hoping the flagship tvs use them in particular the sony tvs which have not yet been announced for 2025 i hope they use the new qd oled screen i hope they use the new media tech chip and that will be great. But anyway.

Good job for Hisense for pushing the envelope. Bad job for it being $30,000. I mean, if you're going to look at $30,000 TVs, like I said, there were micro LED televisions where every little sub pixel is a tiny individual LED, like that amazing screen technology.

that is the best technology you can get but those have always cost like more than a car right well if i'm gonna spend thirty thousand dollars i'm gonna start looking at those i'm not gonna be looking at like a uh a mini led backlit thing so and supposedly they had ones of those that were there wasn't one company showing them or being less expensive because those tend to be modular like like literally the one of the demos they have is you can

take a piece of the screen and pull it off like a television we made of like six or 12 of these panels. And you can literally like remove one while the television is running and snap it back into place, which made me think it should make everybody think, won't you see the seams? between the panels and the answer is yeah you kind of do see the seams but if you pay enough money they can essentially precisely manufacture the parts so that like

the rectangles really touch each other, you know, so that you can't see the seams because like they're so precision engineered and like the light overglow like hides the seam. So. uh even in that technically you can under kind of understand why they're expensive because a has to be precisely manufactured and b placing however many millions of tiny r g and b leds uh is very expensive so

If you do have $30,000 burning a hole in your pocket, maybe look at micro-LED before looking at this iSense thing. Noted. For when I inevitably have $30,000 with no other purpose than an absurdly expensive TV. All right. Tell me about DLSS, if you please. This was the, what does this acronym stand for? I forget now. Deep Learning Super Sampling, I believe, from memory. DLSS 4 was announced at CES. We talked about it last episode.

some feedback about it Hampus Jensen says frame generation was added as part of DLSS 3 that was what I was trying to remember last time I'm like this is not the first version of DLSS to do frame generation but the big innovation with DLSS 4 is it can add like three manufactured frames instead of just one so anyway Continuing.

Yeah, DLSS 3 actually included this originally with just one frame and while the comparison this is going back to Hampus and while the comparison to motion smoothing on TV is apt It's not just a dumb average routine two frames that uses motion and depth information from the game engine and then Flunked Flank's explanation of this is that DLSS frame generation introduced in DLSS 3 is not just extrapolating the next frame based on previous frames, but rather interpolating between rendered frames.

But wait, how is it possible to add a frame before the one being shown? Did they invent a time machine? Well, no. About half a frame of latency is added to the display pipeline after a frame has completed rendering the display pipeline.

delays it a half a cycle until the next frame is about halfway through rendering. Another half cycle later, the next frame is done. DLSS runs the relatively quick interpolation step and then immediately displays the generated frame. Another half cycle later, the frame that was previously finished can now be displayed. interpolate rinse and repeat so like what it's doing is basically like it wants to interpolate between two frames so it's got one frame ready

And then it waits a little bit until the other frame is almost ready. And then it does an interpolation between the frame that's ready and the frame that's half-baked to make the in-between frame. And if you just repeat that pipeline, you get ahead of the game and you end up increasing the frame rate. there's a digital foundry explanation video that tries to show this in action and like the spider-man game if you want to see what this looks like uh and then

Something I meant to add last time is this whole DLSS, XESS. I can't remember all the things. There's a bunch of different alphabet soups from every company. This family of technologies was originally focused on letting people run games at lower resolution because obviously if you... if you render fewer pixels you can have a higher frame rate render the game at lower resolution and then upscale it to fill like a 4k screen so you run it at 1080p upscale it to 4k

That's what most of these technologies were originally aimed at because upscaling is obviously fast and easy to do The upscaling has gotten better and better. I believe they added machine learning upscaling many years ago and now it would be called ai upscaling like can we upscale with a little bit more smarts than just like photoshop you know you just expand well photoshop probably does ai upscaling too but like instead of just like

bicubic interpolation or whatever anyway all these technologies dlss included started kind of doing that and still do that still can do that but now dlss you know starting with version 3 was getting to the frame generation game so Yeah, there's lots of ways for you to get better frame rates in your games without relying on...

what was it traditionally rendered frames or brute force rendered frames they use those same terms in the video so these really are terms of art in the industry of uh rendered frames having all these uh adjectives stuck on them to make them seem old-fashioned Nice.

Oh yeah. All right. And then with regard to Mac monitors, uh, Henry Chen wrote in, have you all spent any time looking into the monitor options from lesser known Chinese manufacturers? Remind me, reminds me of about 10 years ago when you could get Korean branded 20. inch monitors for a fraction of the price of the american ones that said the korean one i had died a few years ago and i'm still using my 27 inch dell ultra sharp ultra sharp purchased around the same time

I found a thread on MacRumors covering a lot of these, and we'll link to that. And then Henry says, here's the one I would likely get, the Quaicon, K-U-Y-C-O-N, G27X. And this is aesthetically... a clone of the XDR, but it's 27 inches in 5K instead of 32 in 6K. But I mean, just looking at it, it looks good. I mean, visually, I'm not offended by it at all. So please load the web page. I didn't put the images in the notes. So please load this web page now and take a look at this monitor.

I'm guessing that you're going to make me feel dumb because I'm not seeing what you see. No, like you're right. Like they're trying to, the whole idea is presumably it's using the same panels, a 27 inch 5k panel, 600 nits, you know.

Like, it's probably the same panel that's like in 5K IMAX, right? Like, that much, I believe. And they're trying to style it to look like the XDR. But how do they do that and offer this panel in... an xdr looking case for a thousand dollars because that's the price thousand dollars which is you know incredibly inexpensive compared to like the studio display well

let's look close a little bit closer at this case which is hard because they're webp images and if you try to open the image in a new tab it will download it because of some misconfiguration of their website but anyway take a look at the back

of the monitor with like the xdr mac pro looking holes in it yeah that pattern is wrong it's like the the it's like two layers sandwiched together that are offset so it isn't exactly instead what what's actually on the front of the mac pro is like if you machine out these partial spheres this is just two sheets of metal with holes in them that are offset from each other yeah so it's like a like a 2d shadow puppet version of the much much more expensive machining that is

Completely unnecessarily done on the back of the monitor that I never see because it's facing a wall. I got it. OK, look, I got to say. So the way I mentioned in the past that my desk is floating in the middle of my office. So. I'm sometimes behind my desk. I have a chair back there to take phone calls that are boring on. So I can sit there during a boring phone call and look at the back of my Pro Display XDR.

And even though it's ridiculous, and even though this monitor needed no additional reasons to be expensive, It's really cool. It does look really awesome. It's on the front of my Mac Pro. I look at it all the time. It's a beautiful work of art, entirely unnecessary just for aesthetics. But it's also incredibly expensive because you have to have this thick piece of aluminum that you machine out until it's incredibly...

complicated shapes like it's just so expensive so this is trying to look like that but it's literally two flat pieces of metal with holes punched in it that just slip past each other so clever there second thing Take a look at the side view at the bottom there, because this comes with a stand, right? Looks a lot like the XDR stand, but look a little closer. I think it's just like there's no articulation.

like that thing coming out of it is just a flat piece of metal there's no hinges anywhere on the thing it is not height adjustable it's not tilt adjustable it is like oh goodness this is the position does not move I'm given an option for a height. So it comes with no stand because they copied Apple that closely. And then regular stand. The regular stand is 50 bucks. Right. So a little bit less expensive than Apple's. Right. And the height adjustable stand is 100 bucks.

right but like the one you're looking at the regular stand like it looks like the xdr stand but it does not move yeah that's gotta be yeah so kudos to these people for and it's it's a visa mount on the back of it so it's a standardized thing or whatever but like i my faith in the quality of the casing around this is probably low uh but

This is always the gamble of those things. The panels are made by a small number of companies. If you know this is actually the panel that you want and you think the surrounding case is... aesthetically to your liking and you think it will be reliable and you think like you know things that are people tend not to think about until they go wrong casey like the connection of the usbc

ports in the back of the monitor to the uh the printed circuit board that's inside and how when that starts getting flaky the whole monitor becomes no good um it's hard to judge stuff like that right but anyway yeah there's there are many sort of

lesser known brands for monitors that use the same panels it's just a question of finding one of those that is going to work out for you in the end because there's there's so much more to monitor than just the panel all that other stuff around it including the case and the stand But also the power supply and the way it's designed and how the connectors connect to the circuit board, that all adds up to the sum total that is the monitor experience. So you got to be a little bit careful.

Additionally, Tim Wenna writes with regard to the Asus. Asus? I'd never get it right. I always say Asus, but I have no idea if I'm right. All I know is that my version of Asus is definitely wrong. Definitely not. Definitely incorrect. The Asus PA32QCV, which is a 32-inch, same-resolution as the XDR 6K monitor. And again, at a glance, this looks pretty good. $1,200.

it's not it's not mini led so it's just got one big backlight no dynamic backlight so the black levels aren't going to be great it's 98 p3 it's hdr 600 i finally found a web page that explains what these like display hdr 600 specs like what it means Like you just glance at it and say, look, it's not going to get brighter than 600 nits, which is fine, whatever. But we'll link to the performance criteria thing on displayhdr.org so you can see what it really means. But this thing has.

HDMI 2.1, DisplayPort 1.4, two Thunderbolt 4 ports, it's a USB-C hub, it has a headphone jack, an ambient light sensor, built-in KVM, 96 watts power delivery, $1,200. I'm assuming this uses the same LCD panel as the XDR because it's 32 inch and it's the exact same resolution. Yeah. It does not use the same backlight, obviously. So it's not HDR. It's not 1600 nit. It's not going to have good black levels or whatever, but like it's the XDR panel with tons of IO on it in.

a plasticky looking case but it's twelve hundred dollars it's it's less than the studio display with no stand and it's basically it's a 6k monitor and remember the studio display also doesn't have hdr also doesn't have a mini uh mini led backlight also doesn't do 120 right so and asus is not a fly-by-night brand so this looks like the best deal i have seen for someone who just wants 6k pixels doesn't care about hdr and wants it from a brand that they've heard of

Yeah, this looks amazing because like this is literally like you could buy five of these for the cost of an XDR with its stand. This entire monitor, which comes with a stand, is only a little bit more than the stand for the Pro Display XDR. Yeah, it's not going to be as good in some edge case specs that a lot of buyers won't care about. about and and it doesn't do hdr at all so if you want hdr just this is not the monitor for you right and you know and look these days

Every third-party monitor is going to have a little bit of friction with macOS. There's not going to be as great integration in certain ways. There's going to be downsides to using non-Apple monitors, as there always are. And I feel like these days there's downsides. They're a little bit higher, but $1,200 for the same size panel as the $6,000 XDR, like the same size and same resolution. Let me tell you.

I haven't moved to one of these panels a few years back. It's amazing. And when I use a 27 inch now, it feels like I'm looking through a porthole like. When you have this much space, screen space matters a lot to power users, and especially in certain use cases. But almost everybody who's a power user... can benefit from more screen space up to a certain limit of how big is your field of view physically from your eyes. And I think 32 inches...

It maxes it out. I feel like I can use this monitor fully without turning my head. And this is about as big of a monitor as I can use without turning my head. But to have this option, if this is good, I mean, look. We don't know yet. We don't have it. We don't know what the experience is like using it with a Mac. But if the experience of this monitor is good, for $1,200, this will be an incredible buy.

Yeah, 100%. If I was in the market today, given how frugal I am, I mean, this is probably what I would get. It's incredible value for money, assuming it isn't a pile of trash. Who knows? I mean, I hope not, but we'll see. But as the character's name, I can't remember, says in Planet of the Apes, he's just so damn ugly. It's a shame. It's not ugly. The Dell 6K is ugly. This is just... It looks like a PC monitor. Whatever.

Okay, so Dan Engler writes, in HP episode 500, you wondered what the industry at large would call the dynamic island. Here's what the phone maker OnePlus calls it. And this is from NKBHD's review of the OnePlus 13. Somebody, maybe John, maybe it was Dan. put together a YouTube clip, which I very much appreciate. And apparently they call it...

Live alert capsules. I mean, Dynamic Island is not great. I think that's why we were talking about it. It's like Dynamic Island. What an Apple kind of poetic name for making... lemonade out of the lemons that is the giant punch out needed for the face id sensor i'm gonna say dynamic island is better than live alert capsules oh yeah it's pretty rough yeah especially this is like so clearly just a complete

copy of apple's feature you know apple did this thing with their cutout we're doing the same thing but we call it live alert capsule so there you go that's what they would call it oh yeah all right let's talk topics and

I don't know. I don't know what to make of this. And I'm not sure I really want to talk about it, but we need to. So Tim Cook apparently donated a million dollars to the Trump inauguration. Reading from Axios, Apple CEO Tim Cook will personally donate one million dollars to the president.

elect trump's inaugural committee sources which with knowledge of the donation tell axios the verge writes cook's donation follows similar commitments from open ai ceo sam altman amazon founder jeff bezos through amazon

and meta as big tech companies and executives work to curry favor with the incoming administration. Unnamed sources tell Axios that, quote, Cook, a proud Alabama native, believes the inauguration is a great American tradition and is donating to the inauguration in the spirit of unity.

Sorry. I'm good. I'm good. Unity with who? Right. The spirit of unity. We're going to anger everybody. Continuing, Apple is, quote, not expected, quote, to donate to the inauguration. And then later on, we'll link to The Verge. also where Google and Microsoft apparently are also doing the same thing. How much is everybody donating, Casey? Well, I thought everyone was donating exactly a million bucks, but maybe I'm... Yeah, I guess that's just the price that's stamped on it.

Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Donate $1 million. Everyone says, interestingly, they all decided they're going to donate exactly $1 million to the inauguration committee. And you may be wondering, what is it? donating to the inauguration, which is like the event where the person becomes president. Why would giving money to that event be... helpful or useful in any possible way and i think before we talk about the people doing it it's worth considering why that's the case

It's basically because it's a way to get money while looking like you're helping to pay for a party. And really what's happening is it's a sort of not money laundering, but might as well be like like many government things.

Some amount of money is going towards this thing, and this thing is somehow going to find a way to spend all of that money by hiring all the companies that are... friends with the uh incoming administration and they will get all this money and just look at what happened to all the money that was given to the 2016 trump inauguration committee uh it's just a way to uh

enrich people associated with the incoming administration. And so that's why donating money to the inauguration committee is seen as a thing that is desirable. This is like, well... You're not actually paying for a party. What you're doing is paying for whatever obscene price that my brother-in-law's DJ company is going to charge us for whatever it is that they're supposedly doing for the inauguration or whatever. Yeah, I'll just say it's a bribe.

That's a lot faster way to say what John just said. It's just a bribe. Yeah, it's just basic. I mean, like a lot of government stuff is like this where it's just basic government corruption, which the Trump administration is the corruption machine. Like just every.

is corruption but every administration has some form of like patronage where you give money and i hire them and like there's this whole sections of the government that are meant to try to stop this to say well we won't just let you pick your brother-in-law's company in fact we'll have a whole process

for figuring out who wins the bid for this contract and so on and so forth. And then the companies all involved find out how to subvert that process and make sure their brother-in-law's company still gets the money. And the cycle goes on. But Trump, the Trump administration in 2016 and again in 2020 is like, we don't...

with the notion to even pretend we're doing anything legitimate it's just straight up corruption give us the money and it will go to all the people we want to give it to and we're not even going to pretend uh we're actually spending on anything for real so yeah it's a it's a payoff it's here's some money

in exchange for something. Yeah, and let me just also put another explanation point on what John just said here, because I'll say it even more directly. To say that this is just the nature of the game is to do a disservice to... you know, to most of the players in this game and to the people listening because that kind of equivocates it with like, oh, this is just all politicians are this corrupt.

What we saw during the first Trump administration, and there's absolutely no end in sight with now the second one, is that they take corruption to another level. It is a difference in degree so great that it is not comparable to what – Almost any other U.S. president has ever done like it. It is a very different level of corruption. It is, first of all.

right out for everyone to see like there is no it's shameless they have no they have no shame there's no they don't try to hide anything about they hire their idiot son-in-law to be like an important government position if a thing has no experiences and it's like i'm not even going to pretend there's a reason for this it's straight up corruption what are you going to do about it i mean look he was elected by this time a pretty

good margin despite being a convicted felon a rapist a traitor to our country i mean there's the list of crimes is pretty severe here and yet you know, people like him. So obviously... He knows he can do whatever he wants. He did last time. Nothing happened. And so he's going through the same thing again. And so now we have, getting back to the topic at hand here, now we have...

All of the, well, most of the big tech people basically just right out in the open giving him... protection money like just going right in and saying you know what we're just going to give him a huge amount of money here just be just so we can curry favor with him and and what we see you know look i've seen a lot of people say online, oh, well, this is just shrewd business from Tim Cook, because Trump's going to put tariffs from things from China, so Tim Cook has to

protect the troops and, you know, make sure that all these thousands of people whose jobs he's responsible for, surely they can't be hit by terrorists and from things from China. And my reaction to this is... First of all, the fact that Tim Cook put everything in China, despite the political environment of the last couple of decades, that is his fault.

largely like yes there are certain volumes and certain entries but apple could have moved slowly out of china they could have done that sooner and more than they have been doing that so they're stuck there and that's that's on them that's the tim cook era right there like that's on them so that's number one huge strategic problem that they have and that's right on tim cook now number two does he have to

play ball here and literally bribe the incoming president? First of all, will that even matter? Trump turns around and fires his gun at whoever he wants to all the time, including people close to him. It's a waste of a million bucks, in my opinion. If Trump wants to get that money from Apple's products, he will. If he wants to put the tariffs on it, this won't matter. Number three, suppose...

These tariffs actually do go into effect, which that's, I mean, that's a big if, let's be honest. It's kind of a severe thing, but you never know with Trump. So suppose these tariffs actually happen. Shouldn't Apple's products be hit with them?

Like, if you're going to have a tariff from products made in China, isn't that what most Apple products are? I don't see any moral high ground for Apple to not be... tariffed the same way everybody else would be to me that's that is also morally indefensible so no part of this move by tim cook strikes me as either good for business or at all justifiable. Tim Cook is a bullshit artist. He's always been a bullshit artist. He's a big corporation CEO. Most of them are. That's kind of how it goes.

He puts on this great show about how much he cares about certain things. And, you know, he's... He's not a terrible person. He does care about certain important things. The company's environmental efforts under his reign have been very good, and that continues in certain ways. But when it comes down to the bottom line...

He's a business CEO like every other business CEO. So when something threatens to attack his bottom line, he's going to do what it takes. And he does not have the courage to stand up to this in any other way. This is a complete lack of courage. This is a complete lack of good business. This is the result of kissing ass and bribing a new president to cover up for strategic errors he made in the past and to protect his bottom line. Screw everyone else.

So I have a slightly different take than Marco, but first I want to explain why I think Marco is so angry about it, because it's worth saying explicitly in case people don't get it from the vibe. Why are people mad about Tim Cook?

donating a million dollars to the president's inauguration committee. The reason is that people who dislike everything that Trump stands for don't want to see him get support from anybody for anything so if you if someone if like the CEO of a company you like does literally anything to try to help or support or It seemed to endorse in any possible way anything to do with anything that Trump wants. That's why people are mad because it's like you can't.

we don't want you to smile at him. We don't want you to shake his hand. We don't want you to like just nothing. Cause it's like everything he stands for is the opposite of everything Tim Cook says he stands for. And so.

You'd be like, oh, it's not a lot of money. Who cares? Whatever, blah, blah, blah. The whole thing is like it is the symbolism of the gesture. We don't think that this million dollars is going to make a big difference in anything in the grand scheme of things. It is Apple, a company that we all care about, a company that.

stands for claims to stand for anything does stand for essentially the opposite of everything donald trump stands for uh in terms of uh issues that people care about uh is giving this money so that's why people are mad right now i'm mad about too because i also hate everything that trump stands for and think it is the opposite of everything that apple and tim cook stands for right um but they have done this and so have tons of other tech companies now

Slow down. Strictly speaking, Apple hasn't done this. Tim has done this. That is a distinction that I think does not matter at all. This is just a shield. This is Apple. i i think there is there is something to that a little bit but come on it's tim cook it's apple we know like there's no getting around the fact that this is apple you know this you can just say apple it's tim cook but it's apple for all these companies that are doing this tim cook in particular I think has a reason to believe.

that it will be good for Apple's business because he did the same stuff last time Trump was president. It wasn't a million dollars, but it was that whole like, oh, come and stand in front of me and I'll stand next to you and smile and listen to you say the wrong things about the Mac Pro fact. and like whatever that whole PR thing where he was with Trump about the company that made the Mac Pros and stuff that

you know, basically kissing up Trump and trying to make him look good by being by standing next to him and allowing all that to happen was supporting an administration that lots of people didn't like and made people angry. And it got Apple. in theory, not provably, a carve-out in a bunch of regulations and rules, I forget what they were, that would have hurt Apple a lot financially, but for whatever reason, Apple was excluded from those. Interesting. So...

Will, you know, kissing up to Trump get you a business advantage? History has shown that it is possible, perhaps even likely, right? That's the nature of corruption. He is a corrupt politician, bribing corrupt politicians. gets you something. That's why they're corrupt.

like that's the whole point bribing an honest politician doesn't get you anything lots of companies give money to the you know inaugurations and funds of lots of you know that's the thing that tech companies always do it's like we just give money to all politicians people angry about that like you can't give it to all politicians half the politicians are doing terrible things but like anyway um we just do that because it's just a thing that we do but like

In theory, if a politician thinks they at least have to pretend to be honest, they're not just going to be like, oh, take your money and then write into the law, everybody gets this law except for Apple. Don't ask me why. Nah. Right? That's corruption, right? So I think Tim Cook has some reason to believe that giving this money will get Apple an advantage because it did last time.

It's, you know, it's terrible. It is an indictment of the Trump administration. But I think there is reason to believe that this will be a smart business move for Apple now. A smart business for Apple. Marco thinks that they should, you know, take their lumps along with everybody else. If Trump does something stupid that makes Apple, the price of Apple products go up because they're made in China, they should take that because guess what? They are made in China.

And they should just take that the way it is. That's one possible position. The other position, which Marco said in a funny voice before, but I think is a position that has some merit. is sort of the position that, I'll put a link in the show notes to, because I actually looked at this quote because I couldn't remember it exactly, that has some historical connotations that are not positive.

This was a Wikipedia article about Charles Irwin Wilson, who was up for the nomination for Secretary of Defense many decades ago. This was back when people really actually needed to pretend to be somewhat honest. And during his confirmation hearings, they were like, well, wait a second, because he was previously the CEO of General Motors. Like, you're going to be Secretary of Defense, but you were running General Motors?

Isn't that unfair? Aren't you going to have a conflict of interest? You want things that are good for General Motors, but now you're supposed to be making decisions for the whole country, but surely you're not going to do anything that hurts General Motors? Can you imagine being afraid of a conflict like that, given the insane conflicts that everybody has in government, including everybody? Anyway, it was a different time.

And it was answered in the confirmation hearings, but his oft misquoted answer was essentially to paraphrase that he thinks that what's good for General Motors is also good for the United States and vice versa. So he's like, well, you know. Like, I'm not going to do things just to benefit General Motors, but General Motors is so big and so important that what's good for General Motors is also good for the whole country.

So I'll just do what's good for the country, and it will also be good for General Motors or vice versa. And that was widely condemned as saying like, oh, you think... you know the country and general motors are equal and just as important to each other and so you don't even draw a distinction you're like i'm just gonna do what's good for general motors because as we all know whatever is good for gm is good for everybody and the rest of the country's like no not that's not the way it works right

But that angle on Apple is perhaps a lot more apt than it was for GM. Apple is huge, not just in terms of the people they employ and the money they make, but also in terms of... given the current financial situation how much of every private person's retirement who has any kind of retirement account is unknowingly wrapped up in apple and three other tech companies right because we all like people who have 401ks

have mutual funds and they're invested in the stock market and what are the big players in the stock market like what percentage of people's portfolios are unknowingly made up of The big tech companies like they don't know that because it's a mutual fund. It's not like they're buying individual Apple or Google or Microsoft stock. But like the fact is tech giants are tech giants for a reason. Financially speaking, the footprint of Apple across the financial fortunes of the entire.

country is huge, kind of like GMOs back in the day. what's good for apple is good for the country what's bad for apple is bad for the country because we're so freaking big and you may not even think you have any interest in apple whatsoever but guess what you kind of do because if we get screwed over and we get destroyed by these tariffs your 401k is going to go down

You're not going to understand why. And it's because tech dominates our industry, right? That angle does exist. Now, it is extremely... charitable to ascribe to Tim Cook the motivation that he wants to essentially protect the fortunes of all the people who are financially dependent on Apple. It may be true.

It may not be true. I don't know what's in Tim Cook's heart. But practically speaking, it is a fact that if Apple gets massively hurt financially, obviously Apple employees get hurt by that because a lot of their retirement and compensation is wrapped up in Apple stock.

Tim Cook himself, who cares? He's a billionaire. He's not worried about that and no one else is. So he's not in it for his own personal wealth or whatever. But tons of people rely financially on Apple maintaining at least its current level of health. And, you know, trying to protect the people who depend on Apple, employees, investors, everyone who's got stuff on their 401k. There's something to that. Now, you could say that's not worth the price you're paying.

You're enabling the evil Trump administration or whatever. But the most charitable and noble interpretation of what he's doing is personally sacrificing his own reputation. And perhaps historically, his own view in history, because if Trump turns even worse during this term, everybody who do anything to support him is going to, they're, you know, they're going to go down in history as like the person who, you know.

helped out this even more terrible person, right? Personally sacrificing himself because he knows people are going to hate him for this and they do, right?

And he donated it himself rather than donating it through Apple. And that doesn't deflect the blame from Apple because, again, it's obviously an Apple donation done for the purposes of protecting Apple. Like, it's clear what it's for. But by doing it himself, he is... putting his personal reputation in the trash can, right, for doing this in exchange for...

protecting the company and i honestly believe again i don't know what's his heart but i honestly believe he's not doing it to protect his riches he doesn't care about the money for himself he knows he's got enough money he's gonna give all his money away anyway he seems like a nice person he's not someone like

Some of the billionaires we know who can never feel like they have enough power and money and always have to have more. That's I don't think that's Tim Cook's MO. So I think he's doing it to protect Apple. Could be argued that. his...

tunnel vision about protecting Apple is causing him to miss the wider picture, which will say there's protecting Apple, but now you're enabling the terrible administration. On the other side of that, you can say, is this amount of money going to materially affect how much evil the Trump administration does? Or is it just going to

the brother-in-law DJ, because in the grand scheme of things, it's just the inauguration fund, which is going to be skimmed off of by a whole fleet of grifters that, yeah, those people probably go off and do bad things, but honestly, they'll probably just blow it on jet skis or whatever. So... I hate this. I think everybody who is against the Trump administration hates seeing Apple support the administration in any way.

But I also feel like I've been here before. I hated seeing Tim Cook standing next to Tim Apple in the Mac Pro factory. I hated the Mac Pro's good name being sullied by that whole thing. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Cheesy peasy. But he did get a carve out for Apple. it fair that apple has a carve out no it's not it's corruption should is it a more defensible more moral stance to not give into that corruption and not pay the bribe maybe

But morality is not just a one-dimensional thing of like, do you participate in a corrupt system by paying off the corrupt politician or do you not? That's an easy decision. That decision doesn't happen in a vacuum. Because there's also...

The people who all wanted to retire from Apple this year, but when Apple stock price gets dropped in half because Trump puts giant tariffs on it that hit Apple, all those people can't retire anymore. What is the moral factor in, you know, one person sacrificing his own personal million dollars in person? personal historical reputation in exchange for protecting the financial fortunes of all these Apple employees.

See, to me, that is a really dangerous argument, because once you start saying that we have to let Apple keep making as much money as possible, because if you don't let them keep making as much money as possible through basically whatever means they deem necessary. then...

We're going to harm all these people's retirement funds. It doesn't mean you need to grow without bound. It just means if something terrible is going to happen, like these China tariffs that, again, might not ever happen. But anyway, if these terrible things that were threatened didn't come to pass, it was not just a matter of time.

matter of growing without bound or even just maintaining it's a matter of like massively hurting there's oh god there's so much wrong with this but like you know i think number one is like if if apple does it so suppose again If these tariffs do happen and Apple gets a carve out under the argument that this is good for people's retirement funds and the employees and everything, it totally would be. Well, OK, but like, first of all, does Apple need.

any more unfair advantages, they're a monopolist in so many areas already. So for instance, should the iPad cost less than a high-end Amazon Kindle? Those are made in China. I know. That's the nature of corruption. Yeah. The people with money bribe. Right. What about Sonos? Most of their products are made in China. How about the Remarkable tablet? That's made in China. Should the Remarkable tablet cost $1,500 when the iPad is $700 because they weren't big enough?

to give a million dollars to Trump. It's the entire... To say that the solution to corruption is more corruption... It's not a solution to corruption, but it is trying... What is it? It's harm reduction. What is the least... How can I make the least amount of harm come out of this terrible situation we're all in? No, what should happen is if these... tariffs end up ever being real.

Every single American who voted or who chose not to in this past election should feel the pain of what they voted for. Honestly. Yeah. We know how well voters are able to connect the consequences of their vote to things that they don't like. They just reelected Trump. If they vote for a guy who says, let's raise the prices of everything from China, fine. Do it. I dare you. See what happens. Yeah, well...

We'll see how it works. Anyway, I don't support this. If I were Tim Cook, I wouldn't have done it. But I'm not Tim Cook. I don't understand the... First of all, I don't understand what's in his heart. And second of all, I don't understand the responsibilities he feels. What's in his heart?

is completely irrelevant. Matt, you judge him by his actions. Look at what he's doing. Right, but his actions, net net, his actions may be reducing the total amount of harm that happens during the Trump administration when you count the number of people times a minute.

amount of harm you know what i mean like he's doing the most harm to himself and in exchange he's protecting a whole lot of other people from consequences he's a cheap ass coward is what he is hurting competitive but like no that's the that's the difficulty of ethical and moral decisions deciding you know this would make

discuss this in a future episode the good of the one versus the good of the many and how do you balance that right it's not it's not so cut and dry like i i you know we all hate it we all don't like it I don't, I'm not going to come out and say it is a noble move by Tim Cook because I don't know that it's a noble move by Tim Cook. But like, I'm not ready to say that the consequences of it are, it won't actually be.

better overall when you multiply the amount of harm times the number of people it affects and no it's not fair it's corrupt and terrible like i'm not saying this is like oh you fixed the problem it's not fair to sonos it's not fair to any it's not fair to the people who vote it's not fair to anything none of this is fair Nothing good is happening here. It's just trying to figure out...

How can we minimize the harm? And on that front, I think one of the things that you can argue is like with the slippery slope thing, which I think is true, is like, OK, well, the inauguration, a million dollars, personal donation, like in the end, is that going to enable any harm that wasn't going to happen already anyway? Probably not.

But there are things that you can do later by, okay, well, now I need another few million, another few billion. I need you to support this nominee for this or whatever. And you can't just say like, well, whatever bribe I give, it's fine. because I'm reducing harm. Maybe you're not. Maybe you shouldn't support the nomination of the devil incarnate to some government position in exchange for Apple avoiding the tariffs because the devil incarnate is going to, you know.

do devil things right like it's just like you can't just say oh no matter what you do it's fine because there's some good that comes of it right I think this is very close to the threshold because you are giving money, but it's not a lot of money. And it's just mostly going to be sucked up by ancillary grifters. Right. And it's not nothing that bad that is going to happen. Wasn't already going to happen anyway, with or without this million dollars and yada, yada. Right.

But it is actually a slippery slope, and that's one of the things that people hate about this. It's like, okay, well, once you've decided you're ready to bribe corrupt politicians, when does that stop? Do you just bribe them all the time now? Once you know the bribes work, like this is how corrupt governments happen. It's like, oh, well, everyone knows you have to bribe to get anything done. We don't want that to be the system.

Unfortunately, a corrupt politician has been elected and a bunch of the largest tech companies in the world are all saying we are going to now pay the bribe in hope of avoiding the things that he's been threatening us with, probably in exchange for getting bribes. That's not a good precedent.

And then the result of that will be every single smaller company who can't afford to bribe the politician is going to have their product squeezed even further out of the market. Yeah, I mean, and that's, and by the way, that's not just like, forget about corrupt politicians or whatever, that's true of... everything having to do with anything no matter who's into the administration the big companies always get advantages the whole like regulatory capture and like you know open ai being in favor

of uh constraints on ai like regulations regarding ai because they know they're big enough and rich enough to navigate them and nobody else is they're squeezing out their competitors by trying to get regulations on the books that only they can navigate. Microsoft has done the same thing. Setting aside Trump, this is just something that big businesses always do. They get advantages over small businesses.

By donating money to politicians. Citizens United has made sure that that is a thing that can continue to happen in this country. One of the many things that is broken about our system. And every big company does it. And it is unfair to small companies. This is worse.

than that because the person they're bribing wants to do a lot more than tweak regulations to favor big tech companies right uh but it is not unprecedented uh and it has always been happening and it has always been terrible and it's one of the many many things wrong wheeler country yeah it's just i think the problem this is something that i've been struggling with a fair bit both in a personal level and a professional level, we, well, I shouldn't say we, I fancy Apple as...

A company that tries to do good and a company that's trying to do right by people. And Tim Cook is a good man who cares about things that I care about. And everyone's good. They're all good. And rank and file Apple, by and large, are good people. Tim, as you both have said, predominantly John, is probably, I think he's mostly a good person. As Apple gets bigger and as their monopolies get stronger and as they operate as a bigger and bigger company with all the bad that comes of that.

It's real hard to be really enthusiastic about Apple. And I think this comes in fits and spurts. I think if you were to plot the vibes of ATP over the last 10 years, there have been times it's been hard to be a fan of Apple and there's been times it's been easy. And...

And it's funny because right now, in terms of products, by and large, I think it is a pretty good and easy time to be a fan of Apple. And yeah, you can start saying, well, what about this? What about that? But I mean, look at how great Macs are these days, iPhones are, iPads. I mean, these are all great products. And in that sense, it's... easy to be a fan but it it's hard for me to come to terms with i don't really want to support a company that that is a a clear to me anyway a clear monopolist

and doesn't give a shit that that's the case. Like, they just don't care. It's like, yeah, we are owed this money. We are owed 30% of everything. We're owed. We put in a lot of hard work. We're owed it until the end of time. And that's hard to be enthusiastic about. And it's hard to find a way to be enthusiastic about a man.

who even though on the whole, I think is a good person who donates to this just frigging monster. Like, I'm sorry if you're enthusiastic about Trump, maybe you're cackling and excited about what we're saying, but I am not. I am not and we are not. And to shoulder up to slash kind of snuggle with him is just frigging gross. It's just.

gross. And I can squint and I can think of a thousand different reasons why it's by some definitions, the right thing to do. And this is what John was talking about, but it's also just gross. And so it's hard to be. enthusiastic about this company that i have enjoyed for a long time not as long as john but i've enjoyed for a long time and

to some degree, I've hung, like I've hitched my horse professionally, or hitched my cart rather, professionally to this horse in many different ways. Not only this very program, but, you know, the apps that I write. They're only on Apple platforms. And yes, I could switch. And yes, I could do a bunch of things, but I don't want to do those things. So it's making me kind of feel like, I mean, I'm being a bit dramatic now, but it's making me kind of have that, oh, wait, are we the baddies moment?

And I think Apple are the baddies. And I think Tim, at least in this action, is a baddie. And again, I can justify it. I can make a passionate argument why this was 100% the right thing for him to do. But it would be a hollow argument because I don't think he should have done it. And it just makes me feel disgusting. It makes me feel super gross, and I hate every bit of it.

And that's part of like the sacrifice is that if we imagine ourselves in that position, we would never want to do it because it would feel so terrible. Like it would be so soul destroying and denial. Like, especially if we're, you know, us in our position where we know how we feel internally, we were like.

How could you ever bring yourself to do that? Because it would feel so bad. Even if you were convinced, which you may or may not be, that it actually is the thing that produces the least long-term harm, you still have to eat that.

Beep sandwich. See, I do it myself. I don't know. You still have to eat that beep sandwich yourself. Like I have to do that. All right. So now I gave you like the noble Tim Cook self-sacrifice version of it. Here is the less noble, less charitable version, which you can decide if it. It's more or less likely. One area where I think it is possible that Tim Cook actually does agree with some of the things that the Trump administration stands for is when it comes to regulating big business.

Tim Cook probably wants what's best for all the people in the world, but he thinks he may possibly think it is very feasible, you know, plausible to imagine him thinking that the. person or entity best positioned to decide what is good for all the people of the world is Apple and not the US government. Therefore, Tim Cook may agree.

that less regulation on big tech companies is better than more. Tim Cook's recent experience with the EU and the DMA is some evidence that Tim Cook thinks maybe governments. don't know what's best when it comes to making decisions that affect large numbers of consumers. And so even though Tim Cook may be opposed to... pretty much everything that the Trump administration stands for. He may, in his billionaire heart of hearts, believe that this kind of regulation of tech companies is harmful.

And those kind of decisions are best left to benevolent, wise, smart people like Tim Cook who run the companies. And it's very difficult, I think, to become a billionaire captain of industry and not... start to believe that the people or entities that know best are the captains of industry, the private companies.

that have all this money and power. Especially if you are, as I think Tim Cook is, a benevolent captain of industry who does want what's best for people and isn't in it to enrich himself past all reason for, you know, like...

There's no actual reason any billionaire needs more money, but some people just can't stop trying to amass money and power as if it's some kind of game and they'd have some kind of terrible sickness. I don't think that's his position, but I think he does believe governments should not be telling Apple what to do.

And Trump also seems to believe mostly to enrich, mostly because of a hangover from his own life as a quote unquote business person that like, yeah, rich people should be able to do whatever they want and the government should not tell them what to do. So I should be able to discriminate.

And, you know, do terrible things and cheat on my taxes. And there should be no regulations on me. And I should be able to put lead in the Cheerios that I feed to the kids. And like, that's the world Trump wants. And Tim Cook doesn't want any of those bad things, but he absolutely does not want the government telling Apple what to do. So he is actually aligned with the Trump administration's supposed possible, you know, as much as they have any kind of coherent anything, he is aligned with that.

I think as much as he hates Trump and what he stands for, if there is an opportunity to do something that produces less government interference with Apple, he would do that no matter what. No matter who was in the administration or out, he would be lobbying for, I don't think you should make more rules that govern Apple. Don't do what the EU did. It's bad what they're doing. Don't do that here in the US. Don't regulate us. We know what's best. We're Apple.

We don't need any more regulations on us at all. Regulate our competitors, fine, but not us. So any rule that's going to affect us, we don't want. And you can see that in every kind of shareholder meeting in Apple where there's sort of like, you know, shareholder proposals. We think Apple should do X. We think Apple should do Y. And the default answer is always Apple recommends you as a shareholder vote against this because we don't want anyone telling us what to do.

Well, let's reframe this a little bit, though. The Department of Justice currently has an open lawsuit against Apple. Right. So why else might Apple and might Tim Cook support Trump? huh, maybe the million dollars and all the support, maybe this is not just about tariffs. Maybe it's also because Apple wants the...

regulatory pressure and the lawsuits from the Department of Justice to go away. Now under... pretty much any other non or less corrupt president that would be unheard of under this president that will become commonplace so we are saying the two of you maybe are saying um It's things from the point of view of Tim Cook really doesn't support Trump, but he's grinning and bearing it for the good of whatever.

What if Tim Cook does support Trump? I think Tim Cook actually literally does support Trump. He absolutely does not. He does not support Trump. How do you know? No, we have a gay man. He's not going to support a president who hates gay people. You think he's the only gay man who would have voted for Trump? Like, no, of course not. But I'm saying he absolutely does not. He loves the environment. Trump thinks climate change isn't real.

Tim Cook, every fiber of Tim Cook's being is counter to everything that Trump stands for, except for the part where the government doesn't interfere with what Apple does. See, to me... People are bending over backwards trying to justify why Tim might be doing this despite hating Trump. It sure looks like Tim Cook supports Trump, period. Like, that's it. What else do you call this? But he didn't lobby for him to get elected. He didn't give millions of dollars to help get him elected.

elected like musk did it's clear that he did not support trump when every other big business person gives trump some kind of financial support we all say they're a trump supporter why don't we say that about tim cook

No, he only is giving this after he's been elected when he has the power to do something that affects Apple. Tim Cook is a Trump supporter. What do you call it? If he had been giving stump speeches for Trump, then maybe I would believe you. But even that would take a lot of speeches to think it wasn't some weird strategy because.

personally from everything we know of tim cook he is not it's not i mean he he was out there uh trying to get hillary clinton elected in the first time trump was like like it's not it's not a tim cook thing it's a long time ago Things change. A lot of people support Trump now who didn't then. As you noted, it doesn't really matter what's in Timothy Cusard. It only matters what he does. But I would bet such a huge amount of money.

That Tim Cook hates Trump and everything he stands for, except for the part where he doesn't regulate Apple. I think Tim Cook likes making a lot of money from Apple. And I think if you compare... You think he's motivated by his personal fortune? No, I think he's motivated by his company's fortune, which is related very heavily to his personal fortune. But listen, if you compare the behavior of Tim Cook... in all the various App Store regulation, lawsuit kind of stuff, right? Compare that.

Do you think Tim Cook really would like to be a little friendlier and less horrible with the App Store purchase policies, but he's, for the good of his company, he's making the difficult decision to be a greedy asshole? No, he's doing that because he thinks Apple knows best. Yeah, and he thinks Apple shouldn't be sued by the Department of Justice probably too, and Apple shouldn't have tariffs too. I don't see why these are different things. That's just Tim Cook.

That's him. And I think he should be more aware of how many LGBTQ people he has in his own company who have a big problem with this and literally have their lives threatened by this administration. Talk about supporting the troops. He doesn't support them at all. It's all about Apple and money. That's what I was saying. How much additional harm is happening from donating a million to the inauguration versus how much additional harm for doing something more substantial. Like there is a line.

And Tim Cook is walking right up to that line. Maybe you think he's already over that line, right? Tim Cook flew over that line in his private jet. But now listen, going back for a minute, what Casey said a few minutes ago I think is worth discussing. It is hard at this time.

When you are as fired up as I am or as Casey is, and maybe John's down there. I don't know where. John's on a different planet right now, a planet of compassion and understanding. Casey and I are like, I'm in the sun. I'm mad about it too. I'm just able to see.

able to see more sides of it i'm not i mean as i think i said in other conversations about this the way tim cook has dealt with china is also enraging in similar ways yes right like like he's like the way and and he has and tim cook has actually articulated like whether it's

the truth of his motivation or not he has articulated he said this is why i'm doing this with china because he thinks it is better to engage with them and do the best we can than to do what facebook did which is like say no we're not dealing with them at all and you can argue about that is it better to deal with

them and engage with them and let China enter your data centers and do all the stuff that you would never do sacrificing Apple's customers. I think that it's easier to argue against that because Apple's moves in China.

open up millions of apple customer to invasive stuff that apple supposedly doesn't want and stands against but tim cook says no it's better to engage with china and that gets back to marco's thing of like well maybe it's better to engage with china because they manufacture all your stuff and if they didn't you'd be screwed isn't that convenient yeah

No, so I think it's important to kind of bring this down a little bit, back down to John's Planet of Compassion. But, you know, cases on Earth, John, I don't know what part of this whole system you're in. But anyway, to bring this back a little bit. What case is it a minute ago? How do we process this as Apple customers and Apple fans? And I think that's a worthy discussion to have because it's hard. It is not an easy thing to do.

I brought this up a couple times in the past. I think it's a great analogy. A while ago, our friend CGP Grey said somewhere on a podcast, whenever he'd complain about Apple stuff, people would suggest, why don't you move to Android? And he compared changing your major computing platform to be like moving to a different country in terms of disruption to your day-to-day life. Which also comes up having to do with Trump.

Yes, well, exactly. And so that's I think it's a very apt analogy of like, you know, what do we do if we disagree with the political moves of the. person at the top of apple um what do we do about that do we do we stop buying apple products do we get rid of the ones we have do we move to different platforms and i think you can it's a very it's a direct parallel to like if your country gets

You know, bad leadership. If you have a bad election, you get bad leadership. Do you move to a different country? And I think obviously like there are certain aspects of moving to a different country that are that. People are like, well, that's a ridiculous analogy to changing operating systems. It's much easier to change operating systems. But in some ways, it's easier. In some ways, it's harder. Like as Casey was saying, like our entire businesses are.

related to apple or and in many ways inextricably tied to apple like it would be difficult for us to continue doing this show and continue making our apps If we all stop buying Apple products and try to move off of all of them, like that would be difficult. It would, you know, we could maybe make apps for other platforms and, you know, and you can, again, look at the country analogy of like, well.

Are the other platforms much better in these regards? Do the other platforms have much better leadership? Because if they only have sometimes better leadership or slightly better leadership, that move's not going to be worth it. Do they have much better leadership? Or worse. We just listed, you know.

Google donated, Microsoft donated. Where are you going to go? Is there some big tech company that's not playing this game? That's the problem. I think Microsoft didn't, or did they? Yeah, they did. Google and Microsoft as well. Yeah, and that's the problem. When you look at...

what other platforms like you know there's you know the whole like we can move to the woods and use linux thing but like even even that's probably like you don't know who's running like all the companies that maintain linux like that's probably i don't use linux because that murderer made a file system Right. Like there's so many like, you know, gotchas when if you try to look around for like.

A country that has no bad political problems or an operating system or a major tech platform that has no bad people funding or running it, you're not going to find one. It's like when you get mad at an airline, like, I'm never going to fly, you know. united again or whatever and then like that's me yeah i mean united is terrible but like you say that but then like well there's only like four airlines that's that fly into your airport so you're gonna probably fly them again

Because these are systemic problems. They're not problems due to like one bad person or the CEOs are all evil. And it's just the system. The system is bad. And it gets to the question of do you fight to fix the system or do you flee to Canada where nothing is wrong and their system is great?

They would never elect somebody who's from the right wing. Right. And that's the thing. I think it's useful to think of it that way. Are we going to move to a different country because we don't like Trump? No. That's not to say that we never would. That's not to say that our tolerance for that is infinite. But things have to be pretty bad for that. And the alternatives have to be substantially better.

And I think in this case, we don't have that dynamic. You know, things at Apple land aren't that bad. And the alternatives... aren't better meaningfully and most they're mostly worse right exactly in every aspect every aspect we're talking about in terms of like you know donating tim cook donated personally the other companies donated directly from the company uh if you care about the environment if you care about uh

diversity and inclusion like show me the companies that are all better than apple on all these fronts like it's either a wash or apple is still ahead Right. And that's why I think the same reason when people complain to us, like, if you don't like X, Y, Z, whatever thing we're complaining about that month, if you don't like this thing Apple's doing, why don't you leave? And it's like, why don't we move to a different country? Because...

that's ridiculous and the options aren't better and that would destroy our lives in so many ways. And by the way, I'm talking about what we do. Maybe this is just for my background, but I feel like my non-programming, like my regular jobby job career, I was a full stack web developer for 25 years and worked for a bunch of different companies, did a bunch of different things. But my other career, my Apple related career.

I mostly view as being an Apple critic. Like I wrote reviews of Mac OS X, which were not universally flattering for 15 years, right? Like I feel like being critical of Apple. does not impair my career and in fact mostly is my career and i think that applies to both of you as well with the exception of developing apps for the platform which is slightly different right which is not as big a part of my business as my my income as it is both of yours so that is that but like

on the podcast, criticizing Apple, just like a political podcast. Political podcasts don't go away when the party that they support wins or loses an election. Like... Criticism is just as valid commentary as praise. And I feel like, you know, we could still make a good podcast when we praise what is praiseworthy and criticize what is worthy of criticism. Yeah, but and I think the.

the right way to address this as an Apple fan is to be vocal about it. You don't need to move to Jupiter. You can just, obviously, maybe support Apple less. Write a letter to Tim Cook. Yeah. Like make make your position known that this is not OK and this and why this is not OK. Like what you think of this and and, you know, in ways that.

supporting apple is optional maybe don't like you know if i if i was like you know about to develop a vision pro app for some reason like maybe this would stop me i don't who knows lots of other reasons why i don't know how motivated you are to make vision pro apps yeah i know but like that's probably a bad example but like no actually it's a good one because that's like it's not the tim cook donation thing that's stopping people from vision pro but there's tons of other things that people

don't like about Apple that may be influencing people's decisions to perhaps not develop for the Vision Pro as we've discussed in the past. And this kind of... Just like all the app store in-app purchase BS, this kind of sentiment accumulates and can affect mood. And that overall mood can... Cause problems for the company when they try to do something like vision pro and no one wants to support their new platform. Like there are lots of.

knock-on effects that are hard to evaluate the numbers behind them. It's hard to put a cost on alienating a whole bunch of your own employees and your customers to support a corrupt... dictator wannabe it's hard to put a number on that so maybe Tim Cook can't understand it but it absolutely has massive value destruction but the right answer here is fight it from the inside because you can't really I'm not going to go buy a piece

to fight this. That's not going to do anything except ruin parts of my life. So instead, I'm going to try to fight it from the inside because that's all I have in the same way that I'm fighting this terrible corrupt government that we're about to get from the inside of my own country.

I think part of the understanding of the damage that is done by Tim Cook doing this is reflected in Tim Cook doing it personally, because what that means is when he retires, some of the badness goes with him because you can put the blame. some of the blame on him personally. Oh, Apple did this bad thing when Tim Cook was in charge. Remember when he donated to the Trump thing, but now he's gone like that.

I think he does recognize that. And I think that's one of the positive effects of him personally donating instead of making Apple do it is that it transfers a tiny bit more of the badness to him. And so when he's gone.

that tiny bit goes with him as opposed to like trying to reshape apple as as a company that supports trump which he's not attempting to do someone in the chat room asked if nvidia had donated i believe they have not but there's a story in the verge that we will link in the show notes about uh nvidia flattering the trump administration to to what to get fewer regulations on selling ai chips that nvidia makes so lest you think that nvidia is uh

The one morally upstanding company that would never engage in this kind of corruption when it comes time to stop Trump from making or stop the Biden administration, for that matter, making rules that say NVIDIA can't sell as many chips as it wants to whoever it wants. Nvidia says, Trump, you're not going to do that, right? You're our pal, right? It's all just so gross. And we're not going to forget. When Tim Cook retires...

This sticks with Apple because this is entirely on them. This stain he put there and this will stick there and we will not forget. I don't even forget the Mac Pro Factory thing. People forgetting about that, not me. But this is even worse. This is just straight up corruption. I think it's about the same.

it's a lot worse i mean it's worse because it's a second administration but like honestly by the time he did that he we all knew better it was bad then this is literally giving him a million dollars like it's not giving him it's giving his brother-in-law dj a million dollars this is this is giving him a million dollars

It's hard to be worse except giving him even more, which I'm sure will happen over time. But his personal wealth has very little effect on... anything and he's not getting this money directly it's going to his cronies and it gives him a tiny bit more power but anyway it goes to him he's not a good businessman where do you think his money comes from it comes from grift

It comes from grift and corruption. That's what all of it is. He's going to be dead in a few years anyway from old age. Like him accumulating more money is so pointless now. He's just one of those like just blind. He's got the blinders on where he just thinks like this is what you do. You amass money and it's just like for what? To what end? There's no helping him there. We just need to contain the badness that he can cause for four years or until he dies of old age.

All right, John, what's the latest update with the app that shall not be named? Good transition. Boy, we'll just come off of that totally light, fluffy topic. You got to follow that. I'm sorry. Anyway, as you may have heard, I'm developing an Apple platform. But it's the good Apple platform that lets you do stuff, except I'm putting it on the Mac App Store. Anyway. Do you have a launch party fund?

yeah right to my launch party fund uh brother-in-law needs that money um all right so uh as i said last episode uh i am indeed going to make the test flight for my new app available to ATP members. So it's not there now. So people in the chat room don't run off to ATP.fm and look at your member page. But after we finish recording this episode, I will press a bunch of buttons and I will get...

the link up on the member page that means you go to atp.fm you log in and on your member page if you click on membership in the nav bar whatever you will see near the top a thing that says hey do you want to go on the test flight for this thing here you go and it will give you a link

Uh, you will need to install the test flight app on your Mac. If you don't have it already, I linked to that as well. Uh, and you'll be able to install the test flight and try it out and totally destroy your disc and then not blame me. Um, yeah. So, uh, Obviously, if you are interested in the test flight and you do install it, you will know the name of my app. So I have to take it.

I have to reveal the name of the app on the show now, uh, cause I've just been holding off and now everyone needs to know. So, um, We talked about possible names for many episodes ago. I read many of them. I didn't want to say whether...

I said at that time that I had already chosen a name, but I didn't want to say whether I had chosen a name that was recommended by somebody or whether I had to come up with something on my own. And I have to say, and I said in a later episode that I think... people aren't going to like the name that I chose based on been there.

Based on all the people who were sending feedback about that huge list, they're like, I like this one. I like that one. People eventually voted with giving their opinions on the many names that we listed, and nobody was interested in any name that was anywhere close to the name that I chose.

It is what it is. As I think I described before, I wanted the name to have some chance in being discernible as an app that... finds duplicate files and replaces them with clones like i didn't want it to just be like lavender or like just some fanciful name that is not connected in any way uh i

Didn't exactly hold that rule as well as I had hoped, but it's because one name grabbed my attention and I initially didn't think it was that great, but it just hung on and eventually ate away. And it was like, all right, fine, fine. You're the name.

This name was suggested by a listener. Ooh. It was suggested by Jared Hofferth on December 13th, 2024, in a mastodon toot. And that name is... hyperspace that is good i do like that you can see how it ate away at me okay so let's start here hyper uh my website uh my old podcast hypercritical right anything with hyper There's a connection there. Space. Disk space. Storage space. It's not great. It's kind of something about getting space back. It's got space in the name. And the one that kills it.

Star Wars. Star Wars, Hypercritical, Storage Space. The three of them together ganged up on me and made me pick this name. Now, am I going to be sued by Lucasfilm? Maybe. I don't have to change the name of the app, but for now, shh. Don't tell them that I'm using hyperspace as the name of my app. And then they won't notice me because I'm too small and it'll be fine. But yeah, that's what the app is called. It's called hyperspace.

i dig it i was going to intercap it switch classes intercapped intentionally because i love intercapping that is the uh the tradition from the classic mac os days where macintosh application names had a beginning capital letter and then in the middle of the word another capital letter like

MacWrite, capital M, capital W, MacPaint, capital M, capital P. It wasn't always just with Mac something, but there was a lot of that. MacWrite, MacPaint, MacDraw, all that stuff, right? SuperPaint, capital S, capital P, I think. Anyway, intercapping was big back in the day.

uh switch glass is capital s capital g uh and i almost did hyperspace capital h capital s but star wars doesn't do that so i didn't don't tell them anyway hyperspace capital h no other capital letters that is the name of the app uh if you want to try it you can for the test flight people i have some instructions

This is difficult because I didn't want to junk up my app with a giant dialogue that pops up in your face that tells you about the test flight, but I almost did. There are instructions linked with a three siren emoji on either side of it in honor of Casey on the member page.

that tell you, please read this first. And it tells you things about the test flight that you might need to know, including the one thing I put in the test flight release. Now it's in all caps, which says this build will not actually reclaim disk space. It will not actually do the thing that my app is going to do. It will do everything but that final last little thing. So it's important that you...

pretend that it's working. It will tell you that it works. It'll be like, I reclaimed, you know, five megabytes of disk space. It didn't, but it did everything up to that point. So please use the app as if it will do that thing, but know that it will not.

Why am I doing this? I'm doing this for multiple reasons. First of all, I don't want to destroy other disks in the first beta, so this one will not actually... modify any of your precious files it will just do stuff off to the side but it will do all the work except for that final part where it just swaps it in for your file right so please do test that the second thing is

If you use this app and get rid of all your duplicate files, you can kind of only do that once. And then all your duplicate files are gone until you generate more somehow. And so I want to kind of save that to the end because it's not useful if everyone uses the very first beta, rids their entire drives of duplicates, and then says, okay, well, how am I supposed to test the next beta?

There's no work left for me to do. Should I artificially make some duplicate files? So keep in mind that this beta and many of the betas, many of the test flight builds that come will not actually reclaim disk space. Even though it will say it's doing it, it's totally not.

which lets you repeat the process over and over again, which is good for my testing. Second thing to know if you haven't been on a test light before, test light builds will not actually charge you money. The purchase stuff is in the test light build.

You can do scanning for free, but as soon as you try to reclaim space, it'll be like, oh, you got to pay. Feel free to click those buttons. They will not actually charge you money. I believe the UI will tell you, oh, by the way, this is not going to really charge you. It does, but it's easy to miss. Yeah.

But it will not. Like, just I'll link to, in the documentation that you're all going to read, link from the member page, I link to the Apple page that says, I swear, it will not charge you money. Like, it looks like it does, but it doesn't. Only the test flight build. The real builds that you get from the App Store will charge you money. But this one will not.

But please do test the purchase part. This is probably the part of the app that I have the least confidence in because I've never done it before and it's not easy to test. Please test the purchase part.

buy it pick like there there's a bunch of things and prices in there we may or may not talk about but like they just ignore the prices don't like obviously it's not charging you real money prices may change the ways you can buy it may change lots of things may change but like please do test that right

um about subscriptions because some of the options are subscriptions in test flight subscriptions renew at an accelerated pace again i'll link to the apple page that talks about this they say that they renew renewed daily up to six times within a one-week period regardless of the duration so even if you get a one-year subscription it's going to renew every single day and i think they expire after like seven days like the time it's not real time that's what i'm saying

So don't be freaked out of like, hey, I bought this supposed free fake subscription. And then the next day, the app said I needed to charge money again. Is that a bug? That may. I'm not entirely sure, but it may be the nature of the accelerated renewal thing. Again, I haven't done this before. Finally, feedback. You can send feedback on the beta.

through the test flight app itself through the app on your mac called test flight not in hyperspace but there's there's an app called test flight that you'll use to install the test flight beta it's like a blue icon with a propeller thingy blueprint on or whatever um

You can send feedback in that app. If you launch the test flight app on macOS, find hyperspace in the sidebar, and then click on the send feedback button, you can use that to send feedback, attach screenshots, so on and so forth. You can also just email me.

there'll be an email address in the documentation that you're all going to read links from your member page that says you can send email to hyperspace at hypercritical.co that's fine um the icon is a placeholder uh it does not have feet but it's all right all right it is not the final icon don't worry about that now as for what i want you to send feedback about literally anything i can't figure out the app i don't understand this i didn't know what this button did

I didn't find any duplicate files. It did find a bunch of duplicate files. I don't know how people are going to perceive this out. Obviously, ATP members are not the general public, but they are. perhaps the type of people who might buy an app like this. So please just any feedback. You don't have to give any feedback. You can just look at it and throw it in the garbage. You don't have to join it. But if you decide to give feedback, don't feel like, oh, he probably doesn't want to hear this.

It doesn't have to be a bug report. It doesn't have to be a feature request. It could be just your opinion, your experience, what you thought, where you were confused, things you didn't understand. Depending on how much feedback is, I might not be able to respond to you individually, but it's good to hear.

people's experience using it if they can make heads or tails of it when you work on an app for a long time it starts to become like obvious to you where everything is and how it works and it's not that complicated of an app but if you don't have that background knowledge and you're just faced with this ui it may not make sense to you

So I'm open to any and all feedback about every aspect that you see before you, including the pricing, which again, we may get to in a moment here, but like the pricing is not final or real in the app and everything is free. So it doesn't matter. But like, if you have opinions about that.

throw your feedback over the wall. I'm glad to hear it. I do value ATB listener feedback a lot because... you all if you have been listening for a long time know a lot about me and a lot about app development stuff from listening to us so please give your opinions show the app to someone else

uh who doesn't listen to the show to get a more outsider opinion if you want and tell me what they thought like whatever so anyway there it is hyperspace uh beta for atp members coming as soon as you listen to this episode A couple of quick addendums. I'm speaking for you, so tell me I'm wrong if I'm wrong. But once the app is released on the proper App Store, the test flight will go away the same way it did with CallSheet. Is that fair to say?

That is true, although I don't think you can make it go away immediately. Doesn't it go after 90 days or something? Correct. So like I said before when we talked about this, you're on the test flight, but this is a specific test flight for ATP members. This test flight will end.

when the app is ready to be released. Actually, you might be able to expire all the builds, but if you have more than a handful of builds, that'll take a freaking year to go through and expire them all. I didn't even know how to do that in App Store Connect. Oh yeah, one final thing. This is a fun note on...

how little i know about testing in-app purchase stuff or whatever i installed the test flight version of my app on my own computer and i was testing the purchase flow in the test flight build of my app and i subscribed to my own app

with one of the subscription options to see how it worked it's like great you subscribed you know it didn't charge me money okay fine and then i was like all right well i want to i wanted to look like i wanted to take like screenshots of what the sunscreen looks like when you haven't paid for the app

But I've already paid for it. So I'm like, I just got to find a way to cancel that subscription that I just made. And I do have a managed subscription button in my app that uses the Apple approved API to bring up the managed subscription interface. But. my subscription to my own test flight build of my app was not in my subscription list. And so I couldn't unsubscribe to it.

i googled for it and i asked people who knew they're like well it should be your subscription list you know like i like i swear to you it's not there like i just don't see it is it an app store connect somewhere i didn't use a sandbox apple id which i do have a separate account with a sandbox apple id i know how to deal with that one but that's not this i use my real apple id that is on the test flight to purchase from the test flight uh version of my app

And I just could not for the life of me figure out how to cancel that subscription. And yeah, it's renewing like once every day or whatever. And some people said they thought it would expire after seven days, but it hasn't been seven days since I did that. Could not figure it out. You know how I eventually solved this problem?

Casey? Please tell me because I haven't solved this problem myself with testing subscriptions. Casey has. Have I? You have. You know how I solved this problem? I solved it with a call sheet. Now I'm deeply confused. So thanks to Craig Hockenberry who pointed me in this direction. So on macOS, you can make a button that says go to manage subscription. What it does is it launches the App Store app on macOS and it shows you your list of subscriptions.

test flight things are not there well there is the same api in ios and guess what on ios it does show your test flight subscriptions oh fun call sheet the test flight version of call sheet has a thing in settings where you can go to manage subscription and it calls that API that brings up a sheet that shows you all your test flight subscriptions. And lo and behold, Hyperspace test flight subscription was right there inside Casey's app. And I just canceled it from there.

You are welcome. I will take 5% of your proceeds now. Why does that not exist on macOS? Because Apple doesn't care about macOS. Like, I guess, what you can do is make a stub application, like a stub iOS application, run it in the simulator, pull up that, like, subscription...

management sheet. And lo and behold, in iOS, it has that little square bracket sandbox section that shows, you know, call sheet and all your other betas. Ridiculous. I cannot believe. Thank you to Craig Hockenberry for pointing that out to me. I would never have guessed that either making a stub iOS application or

launching call sheet would be the solution for me to unsubscribe to my own app i'm glad i could be there for you john and that's the solution marco if you want to figure out how to do it i don't know why they're like maybe you don't know about the api but yeah well uh

I'll see if I can find a link to that to put in the show notes. But Casey just had the link because he literally has the code for it in his app. Well, I was just talking to Craig about this a couple of weeks ago, so I should be able to dig it up from when we were talking because he had asked me, you know, how do you get the...

Manage subscriptions thing. Yeah, here it is. Manage subscriptions sheet is presented. I will put a link in the show notes and in the chat room and so on and so forth. But this is how you do it. Oh, I see. Margo is putting in our Slack all the people who own hyperspace stuff. Yeah, there's just so much hyperspace stuff. Speaking of one of my old competitors, Epic Healthcare. I worked for a competitor to them.

Back when I had my jobby job, they have a thing called like hyperspace something or other like chart or whatever. Yeah. Someone comes and sues me. I'll have to change the name of the app. So we'll be back to the naming thing. But for now, I'm going with this.

Yeah, I think from a cursory look through things, I think you are reasonably safe. Because, you know, trademarks are on certain types of goods and services. Like you have to narrow it and say, well, this is what I'm claiming. And if you look through like... There's one that's a little close, but it looks like it's a dead app, actually. So everything else looks pretty far away. I think you're okay. But the actual truth is, if literally anybody...

comes after me for any legal reason, I'm just going to fold immediately. What am I going to do? I'm going to fight them in court over like, no, you'd never get there. is the law of like people with money win. Like I'm not, I'm not going to invest any money in battling this type of thing. So just, you know, just don't tell anybody and we'll just have this little hyperspace app off in our corner and Lucasfilm will never come knocking on my door.

The best defense for disputes like this is obscurity. And if not, I'll just change the name of the app. Like Steve Jobs would say, just change the name, no big deal. Not that big of a deal, I believe it was. speaking of pricing how should i price my app i will give only one constraint to my co-hosts after which i will hear their advice and my constraint is this app is going to be free to download and the idea is it's free to download and it's free to scan

to find duplicates because the whole idea is hey if you don't find any duplicates don't buy the app it's not gonna do anything for you i don't want to like take people's money when they literally don't it's not going to save them any space right but on the flip side of that if they scan some folder and it's like oh you could save eight gigabytes

Now suddenly they have a concrete motivation to give some amount of money to get that eight gigabytes back. And so that's the constraint. Free to download, free to scan, free to do everything except that final step. that gets you that space back so i'm open to any and all pricing structures and in fact if you for the people who have the test flight you will see that i have implemented

Every possible pricing structure does not mean that they will all be there in the release version. I was just trying to make sure that I knew how to code all of them. And so they were all in there. Well, the obvious pricing structure is 100% consumables. And so you get $0.10 per gig saved, and that's how you do it. This is not iOS, Casey. I mean, first of all, that's not that crazy of an idea. But one thing I think that you need to know is how much space people stand to save on average.

and i have no idea right now do you have any kind of analytics for the test flight that will report that back to you no that's why i ask people to give me reports like so my i have zero analytics zero my privacy policy is this app collects no data like i collect nothing I probably will never. I have no telemetry. I have no data. I have nothing. I only know what people will tell me. I know what I see on my disks and like this is my family, but I have no telemetry.

And I understand from a business perspective, that's stupid. You should have some. But I just at this point, I just don't want to deal with the privacy implications of collecting literally any data from anybody. And so I'm not. I mean, honestly, that's fair. I mean, that's like I like I make forecast and the only the only.

you know data i have from that is if the app checks the uh sparkle rss feed for auto updates but i don't even look at that yeah i have crash reports from apple that's the that's the extent of my and i don't even know if you can opt out of those Yeah, I don't think you can. But yeah, so I think it's hard to know what the value will be of it without knowing how much space people stand to save on average. So I think if you look at other...

like disk space saving apps in the Mac App Store. Prices are kind of all over the place, but it generally ranges from like 10 to 20 bucks. for this kind of thing. There are free ones. That one I talked about that does basically the same thing as my app but not as fancy is like six bucks up front one time pay. Yeah. On the other hand, you...

are John freaking Syracuse. So you can charge a premium based solely on not only, you know, your fame here, but also the reputation that you have of being a good developer, especially regarding knowledge of the file system and how it works. So this is like people trust you, rightfully so, to know how to do this safely. They should not trust me. People have said this. My enthusiasm for the file system does not translate into an app that has fewer bugs. What I will say is that I think my app is...

more full featured and nicer and more careful than a lot of the other apps simply because i've spent a lot of time but i mean you can judge for yourself like i'm not gonna like i know what my source code looks like i know what their feature set looks like I think I have put a lot of work into this and I've worked hard to make it safe.

that may be why like why can you charge more money so we talk about this like mac apps can charge more money for like phone than phone apps because they're bigger on the screen like there's something to that the idea that like physically it is larger therefore it is worth more money like the things that that translate into people being willing to pay more money are wild. So anyway, I think seeing the feature set maybe, or the interface, or I don't know the performance, like.

Does it look like it was more carefully constructed than this other app? Doesn't mean that it was, but does it look like it was? Does it look like a more like a native Mac app? Does it look, you know, anyway, that's. That is influencing my thinking about pricing. I'm not going to undercut my competitors. I'm going to probably end up charging more than they do. Yeah. So I think if you were doing...

like a more full-featured, like, cleanup unnecessary files, like, you know, that kind of app. There's lots of those. Then I think you could be up around $20. But those are a little janky if you've ever used those, and I have. That's true. Those look shady sometimes.

times oh absolutely those look shady most of the time but but you know the fact is those are going to recover more space and have more utility than most apps will especially those are going to remove files and mine will not well right but That's a distinction that many people will not draw. This is a space-saving app.

regardless of how that happens. I mean, my app is trying very hard to draw that distinction, and my marketing will try to draw that distinction, but really, my app will only appeal to the people who understand that distinction. Otherwise, why would they get it? I mean, fair. But anyway, so...

I think you should, you know, free up front to find out how much you have and then to delete the files, I think $10. Doesn't delete any files, Marco. To recover your space, hyper-lead, $10. Without removing files. Traveling without moving, Marco. Another movie you haven't seen. Yeah, you're right. And I think $10 is the premium price for what you're doing. $10 for what? For the deletion.

Or excuse me, for the traveling with that. Yeah. For the non-deletion. Well, you pay that once and then it's like a one-time purchase and unlock forever? I think so because... So you're not offering people a lot of reasons to run this frequently. It's the kind of thing that you're going to run once, you're going to recover a hunk of space, and then maybe you'll forget about it for a year.

or more like and then you run it again and you get like you'll recover a smaller hunk of space but most of the value that you're going to deliver to most people is going to be up front on that first run Because that's when the most space will be saved in all likelihood over the lifetime of them using the app. So that's why I think you should have it be a one-time purchase. Ten bucks. You can delete as much as you want after that.

Actually, non-delete as much as you want after that. Reclaim, I call it. You're reclaiming space. There you go. Casey? I think... Marco's answer, although I think you could charge more than 10, I think you might be able to swing 20 bucks, but I think broadly Marco's answer is probably the right answer. This doesn't necessarily strike me as a subscription app. I think you could do it, but I think it would be a tough sell.

I think, well, first of all, I love the way you're doing the paywall. I think that's brilliant. I mean, it's somewhat obvious, but it's still brilliant that, you know, you're getting right up to the point of reclaiming, not deleting Mark, oh gosh, but reclaiming.

space right i could delete all your files for free uh but anyways getting right up to the point where you know this is what you would have saved um and i think by the way as a quick tangent you should make it very clear, particularly at that step, that...

this is not like reiterate at that very last step. This isn't a deletion. It's, it's a reclamation and you know, you're not losing anything. You're getting this effectively for free. Somebody in the chat and I, I don't, I lost who it was and I apologize, but somebody in the chat. chat, oh, Philco said, you should refer to the Apple SSD upgrade pricing. We just saved you $5,000 worth of files, which is eight gigs or whatever, which I think is very funny. But I think...

The rightest answer is probably to do a one-time unlock everything in-app purchase at that point, like you and Marco have both said. Or, well, Marco definitely said, and you've kind of hinted at. But I think something that could be fun to play with... And I said it jokingly at first, but the more I think about it, the more I think there may be something to it, is to do some sort of consumable. So as an example, you can run this one time.

or use it for a day or whatever, but probably run it for one time, and that's $10. You can get a three-pack for $20, or you can get a Lifetime Unlock. Run it as often as you want. And maybe if you wanted to, you could even have it like install a cron job or something like that. And that's like 80 bucks or something like that.

I don't know if I'm standing by this crackpot theory, but it's an interesting theory. And this is one of the very few apps I can think of where that might actually make sense. Because you are, like one of you just said, you are only going to run this once a year, maybe, and for most...

people and then other people go bananas and run it once an hour but generally speaking you're going to run it like once a year you could do consumables assuming they're supported on mac os you could do consumables here and i actually think it might even make sense

The problem is that when you first run it, you're going to recover way more space than subsequent runs for most people's usage patterns. That is a very good point. You also create an incentive then where you're like, well, if I'm only going to save a gig... I'm going to save up my ticket to use until later. Like, I'll come back to this in a year, and then you make...

zero on that person or whatever. I think it's an unlock one time and that's it because the utility will vary so much per person but it will almost certainly be mostly up front.

yeah so consumables do exist and i said before that i implemented every possible thing but i didn't implement consumables that's how much i hate them so i'm never doing that all right fair enough it's just too like i understand the logic behind it but it just feels so gross to me and it doesn't feel like mac like for whatever that

that's worth yeah the ones I did implement like setting aside the pricing which is who knows if I got anything close to that like I have all these options in here at this point mostly because I think all the options make sense in a certain scenario and i haven't priced the options against each other to try to motivate one of the other there's no price advantage to choosing any of the options that i have available um in terms of running the albums multiple times here's the thing to

uh factor in here so first of all this is the discussed a little bit in the uh the documentation fact thing that i'll link to but like the especially the tesla version but probably the 1.0 version of this app are extremely conservative I'm trying not to break anything.

So there are whole swaths of people's disks that I will just not touch. I will just ignore 100%, including large areas that people want me to look at for duplicates. I just will not do it until I can have some confidence that I can do it. it safely. An example is iCloud Drive.

or anything that is like any file that is owned by like backed by one of those things that makes the file magically appear when you click on it like the ones with use the file provider api like one drive or the new version of dropbox or obviously icloud drive i will not touch those files at all because i have

freaking idea what will happen if i try to do my magic to them so it's just like i'm gonna reclaim duplicates in my cloud drive my file will complete my program will complete instantly and say nope can't save you anything because it will refuse to touch them

I will not touch anything in your library directory, even though my library directory has 12 gigs of stuff that I could reclaim. Why? Because I'm terrified of touching anything there. It's too much stuff that can be screwed with. Nope, won't touch it. I won't touch anything in your photo library.

I did it to my photo library with the Perl script. I'm not ready to do it to yours. So if you think you're going to recover space from your photo library, you're not. My thing will totally ignore it. I have so many limitations on this thing. Maybe too many. Maybe people will do in the test flight and say it found nothing.

And maybe I have to dial them back. And I can dial them back. And I almost added a UI for dialing them back. But I'm like, you know what? 1.0. Let me just see. Which means that subsequent versions of this app will surely have some of the guardrails either removed. or optional, which means that over time, as I develop this app, if you purchase it, you will be able to find more space to recover, not because you've created more duplicates, but because my app is becoming more brave.

or you are becoming more brave with your settings in my app of what you're willing to examine for space so there's that second thing is an app like this there is an ongoing development burden of making sure that it continues not to host your drive especially with little picky file system stuff like this right so if i wanted that to continue to work and continue to be on the market i will have to continue to develop it which makes me

not want to do a one-time purchase. Like my other two apps, I, you know, someone paid $5 from my app five years ago and I'm never getting any money from them again. And they run it 24 hours a day. Like I run Switch Class 24 hours a day and I'm never giving myself any more money for it. Right. But just fine. If you think the app like switch glass is going to be like feature complete, you never really have to do anything to it again.

But this app, I feel like is going to have an ongoing burden and I feel like I'm over time going to make the app braver and braver. So I was looking for some way to potentially fund what I see as the multi-year development lifecycle of this app up to and including things like.

a privileged helper tool that can do stuff outside the sandbox that you could secretly install, like I did with Switchglass, right? They can do stuff across accounts or things that run in the background, scanning for duplicates. There are many other sort of more ambitious goals.

uh that will never be achieved unless there's some form of funding that is more than just someone paid for this once one time five years ago and you're never going to get any more money from them so i did want to add some kind of option for ways to get money on an ongoing basis but i do recognize that most people will either run it once and then just never run it again or run it once and then run it five years from now so

The options that you'll see in the test flight are there is a buy it all up front thing for so much money that no one will ever pay it. Right. But it's there. But like we always talk about, like, what's the right amount? Should I ever have an unlock forever option? What's the right amount I should put there?

I feel like I gave myself like a five-year runway with the buy it all at once option. For people who want it, it's there. It will unlock everything forever and ever and ever. Marco did this much with Overcast and is still supporting it. And people regret it. But like, how should that be priced? whatever. It's basically a deterrent. Like don't buy this. The other things you can buy are time spanned one-time purchases.

Because people hate subscriptions. So I've divided up my purchases into subscriptions and one-time purchases. And yeah, there's the unlock for every one-time purchase. But there's also the unlock for one month one-time purchase. And then there's the unlock for one year one-time purchase. non-renewing do people know that can i communicate that successfully in the ui who knows we'll see what people think but like

If you want it for a month, a month is enough time to like make sure, yeah, I found all the stuff that I care about that one point I was going to find. And that's it. It never recurs. It doesn't rebuild you or whatever. Don't touch the app for three years. Come back to it in three years. Scan. Oh, but found some more stuff. Should I buy another month? Sure.

It's kind of like the consumables, but not really, because during that month, you can run it as many times as you want, right? During that year, you can run it as many times as you want. And then the subscriptions are exactly the same price. They just renew.

for people who want something that's renewing. I don't know why anybody would, but there's no price advantage to not doing it. I'm not competing. I'm not saying, oh, the descriptions are cheaper, so you should do them so you forget about it and it auto-renews. No, there's no advantage. If you don't want something that renews, you have multiple options.

one month, one year. They didn't do one week or one day. It seemed like too short or whatever, or forever. And then subscriptions, which are exactly the same price as their one-time thing. That's probably too many options. I should probably get rid of some of these. That's part of what the test flight's going to do.

Let people tell me, oh, I think your prices are insane. I would never pick this option. I would pick that one. This didn't find any files. It found 20 gigs of files. Like, I'm hoping I get some actionable information on this. But in the end, what it might come down to is. I don't freaking know. I'll release something and if no one buys it, I'll change it.

Right. Like Marco has changed the business model and pricing and his apps many, many times. That's just seems to me to be part of the process. And I'm willing to like, maybe it's only the only way for me to learn that is to like learn it myself, despite all these people giving me advice from based on their experience.

There's all sorts of things I can tell myself like, well, their experiences on iOS or their apps, not like mine, or I want to do it this way. But it may be one of those things that I just have to learn the hard lessons myself. And part of that could be launching a 1.0 that no one wants to buy.

and then i change it and and launch a 1.1 and change it and you know like i'm as as frustrating as that sounds I actually kind of relish that process of learning because for me for an app like this it's like low stakes it's not a big deal this app is not going to be a big app or whatever but in the same way that I kind of perversely enjoyed fighting with the in-app purchase system

Like doing a part of my app that had nothing to do with my app and had everything to do with dealing with the app store. One of the reasons I wanted to do this app was to play with that code to hope that I got it right. And also playing with pricing strategies is another thing that I actually kind of look forward to.

uh granted it will be based on no information because i'm not collecting any information but that's all part of the game for me so i don't know we'll see i haven't finalized anything uh but in the meantime i want test flight people to try all the options and give me your opinions on them If you know say if this was a real app I would pick X option. I would pick Y option if it was half the price I wish there was a Z option Let me know what you think because honestly like

the main customer base for this app right now are people who listen to the podcast because they're the only ones who know it exists and they're the only ones who might even think about seeking it out in the app store because the name isn't really self-serve oh by the way the name is not just that it's you know what

What's the name of your app, Casey? My app? Call Sheet? No, that's not what it's called. What is it called? Oh, Face Splash? Or no, that was the other one. Flook Up. Flook Up, right. Sorry. No, Call Sheet.

What is it actually called, though, on the App Store? Oh, I don't remember. Like, lookupcast and crew or something like that. Callsheet colon lookupcast and crew. What is your app called, Marco? I believe it's overcast colon podcast player, I think. Yeah. And my app is hyperspace colon reclaim disk space.

yeah there you go and this is part of this is because that's how the app store game is played even though casey refers to his app as call sheet in the app store it's called call sheet colon look up cast or whatever like uh that's part of how it's played and the other reason is

Hyperspace, I think, was already taken by the Epic app, so I had to put colon something. I probably would have anyway. But yeah, that's the only chance anyone finds me in the App Store, is they search for like... disk space or something and mine comes up because of the subtitle and my keywords or whatever but you have to put store qsa as a keyboard you know yeah i don't think that i think they would have worse seo than hyperspace if that's possible no so i mean

for your subscription ongoing stuff, I think that can work. when you add more ways to recover space. But I think it's going to be a challenge when you're, quote, only doing this particular method of recovering space.

I think you're going to be compared in people's minds to all the other disk saving tools that like delete temp files and stuff. Yeah, the ones that delete files, though, I don't feel like are my competition. Maybe they are. Maybe that's what people really want. Like they already have had people say, oh, I don't want to actually recover space. I just.

want to find files that are duplicates and delete them i mean i can always add that feature it's obviously i know where all the duplicate files are and it's really easy to delete stuff but yeah we'll see maybe that's a thing that i'll learn is that uh my that the function my app performs is not desired It's desired by me. That's why I made the app, but we'll see. Well, it's desired, but I think it's a, if you want it to be an ongoing revenue app.

I think that needs to be one function of multiple functions that are all responsible for keeping your disk space minimal or recovering more disk space than what that can do. yeah we'll say like i mean the it's not like it's not like ongoing it's more like uh punctuated like use it once wait two years use it a second time but when i use it the second time i want you to pay again

All right, you know what I mean? Unless you've unlocked it forever. But like, that's what, like, if I get the pricing right, you'll be like, you know. A one month unlock is plenty. I'm not going to use this thing for a whole month. I'm going to be done with this in two days. So you pay what you hopefully you think is a low price. You use it for a month. Forget about it for two years.

Two years later, you come, oh, I should do more space. And you download the app and you do the exact same thing. It's kind of like a consumable in the form of like, I don't use this app that often, but it does make the second use potentially...

you know a a transaction right obviously if it was 99 cents to do it everyone would do it they'd be like oh just pay 99 cents and do it for a month or whatever it's like questions how how high can you make that month thing and it really that depends on to your point margo that first big number when you do when you find all the

it's the first time but like what i was saying earlier is that it could be that your second run actually finds more space than your first because two years pass and now my app is brave enough to delve into darker recesses of your Mac where the real space can be recovered. Like I said, my library directory has been the largest source of duplication that I've found, but I'm just not ready to go there yet.

I think subscription is going to be a tough sell. I really do. I get what you're saying. It makes sense. I don't see why anyone would do it either. But if it's the same price and if that's what people want, eh. You've got to reach for more disk space. Again, you've got to go for the library. You've got to go for the photo. If you want, because the thing is, obviously, the more space you can save, the more value you will have to people. So I think you have to go for those.

Yeah, it would also be nice if I knew at what rate duplication is generated, because that's one of the questions people had. They're like, why would there be any duplicates? I'm not sure I know the answer. All I know is that there are duplicates. Like, I don't think I was creating duplicates, but I've got. it's just so many of them

How did they get there? Like, I can explain some of them, but not all of them. Like, they're finding duplicates. I'm like, how in the world do I have two of those that are not clones of each other? But somehow I do. So I don't know at what rate does new garbage get generated. If new garbage gets generated...

entered real slowly then yeah no one's ever going to want to run this app again but if but if there's something some part of some process especially in the directory that i'm not looking in now like library or photo libraries or something if there's some like

duplicate garbage generation process that is just constantly eating people's discs then maybe running this once a year is not a ridiculous thing to do or even continuously monitoring or something so there's just so many unknowns here and you know if i'm not willing to add any telemetry i'm not sure how those Nones are going to become knowns, but presumably slowly through feedback. We'll see.

Thank you to our members who supported this episode for us. You can join us at atp.fm slash join. One of the perks of membership is ATP Overtime, our weekly bonus topic. This week on Overtime... We're going to be talking about Honda's announced EVs at CES in partnership with Sony, which...

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Cause it was accidental. Oh, it was accidental. John didn't do any research. Marco and Casey wouldn't let him. Cause it was accidental. It was accidental. And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM. And if you're into Mastodon, you can follow them at CAS. E-Y-L-I-S-S, so that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-E-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-E-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-E-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-E-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-E-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-E-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-E-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-E-N-S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-O-Q

It's accidental. They didn't mean to. Accidental. Tech Podcast. John, it's wintertime and you have a new car in the house. How's that going? Yeah, I think we've got a little bit of after show car stuff to match up well with the overtime car stuff. This is the first winter for my wife's new 2024 Civic. Uh, and I didn't really think about winter car performance until the snow started coming. And I was like, I've got a new car in the snow and I'm not talking about how the car drives in the snow.

because you know it's front wheel drive honda with all season tires it's pretty much a known quantity i don't think there's anything remarkable about this car i'm talking about the other stuff uh about having a car in the snow which is basically When you wake up in the morning and it's time to get in the car and go to work, what does that process look like?

Now, if you have a place where all your cars fit in your garage, maybe that's not a big part of your life. But all our cars do not fit in our tiny garage made for horse-drawn carriages. Cars, with the exception of one, are all on the driveway. That means they're getting snowed on. That means in the morning you've got to go out there and defrost your car and scrape it all off. And depending on the weather you had, you could be brushing away snow, you could be scraping off ice.

Uh, this is just part of life, uh, in a place with winter, uh, with a car and I guess I hadn't thought too much about it for so many years because so many of our cars have been the same. We have two of the same generation of Honda Accord. We had a bunch of Honda Accords and Honda Civics before that. But this 2024 Civic throws in a few new wrinkles.

and i don't know if it's just like you know because my my car is 10 years old my wife's car is like seven years old my wife's other car and her new one is the shiny new car and uh along with how the first car having carplay There are other firsts in this car as well. I'm not sure all of them are good, but some of them are just a fact of life. So this is our first hatchback. And a hatchback has a rear wiper. Has a big hatch. And yeah.

There's a wiper on the hatchback. What the hell is that doing there? That is a thing that I have to be aware of and avoid when removing snow from the back of the car, lest I... scrape the wiper off of my car and onto my driveway. Now, hold on. Are you not doing the time-honored tradition of moving your windshield wipers to the upright position when snow is pending? Well, I'll get to that.

So first of all, the wiper on the hatch does not do that at all, as far as I can tell. That's a shitty design. Yeah, I agree. But there's that, right? um and yeah when the snow is on it you may not be aware of exactly where it is but the second thing is the hatchback also has a little sprayer thingy for spritzing water for the wiper to wipe away. That is in the middle of the glass. That is another thing you do not want to hit.

with your giant ice scraper as you're scraping the ice off the windshield with big, long, powerful strokes. Yeah, that's another thing you don't want to do. Just for the purpose of argument here, have you not considered just like... turning the car on and turning the rear defroster on and just coming back in five minutes?

Five minutes, eh? I'm not sure where you live. Five minutes is not going to make a dent when you have freezing rain that has put a centimeter thick sheet of ice over your car. That rear defroster is not going to make that stuff magically vaporized. No, but it'll at least make it loose.

It kind of just like falls off, right? You do what you can. You give it 15, 20 minutes, but sometimes you're running late. Sometimes you don't have time to let the car sit in your driveway and defrost. You don't want to just be sitting there. spewing fumes into the atmosphere with your internal combustion engine for all this time. Like, yeah.

Obviously you put on a defroster. Obviously you turn the car on. Obviously you want it to warm up. Obviously you turn the heat on inside. You do all that stuff. And yet still you want to get going. You want to get out of the driveway. You're late to where you want to go. You've got the ice scraper out there. You're scraping. So I have to be aware over that little.

nubbinous so you got the wiper on the back and you got the nubbin on the back and that's setting aside the other thing that you have which my wife does not care about but i absolutely do which is all the ceiling around all the glass. And you have to be aware of what that is so you don't take your scraper and jam it into the ceiling around, you know, that's fragile, right? It's made of soft plastic or rubber.

Your ice scraper can damage it. I am of the opinion that you should not hit that with your scraper. Other people in my household are not of that opinion. So I'm trying to preserve this car. And obviously you've got the side windows, which have their own seals around them, right?

but you also don't want to hit that you're also trying to scrape off that you're also trying to point the vents too so they help to rust it but now let's move around to the front where some real issues are happening so first of all this is the thing that i've gathered a lot of modern more modern cars do that i don't like which is they want to get the wipers out of the airstream so the wipers are

like nestled more under the hood. Both of our cars do this. Which means you can't just take them and pry them upwards. because they won't go they'll hit the top of the hood what you have to do is go into the car and depending on whatever your car is do whatever incantation that tells the car can you please put the wipers in service position and they move and they blah blah all right now

you can move them out and of course you can't put them back until you you know so that dance is stupid on the car because you have to like start the engine and then turn it off or turn actually turn on the accessories and turn them off

which is harder when you don't have a key because the key you just turn halfway but you've got a push button anyway that's annoying i don't like i understand why they do it but i don't like it and the second thing is and i don't know if this is just a honda thing or this is a new modern car thing but i'm I have two minds about this. All my previous cars that I've ever owned have the squirty things where they squirt, you know, windshield wiper fluid onto your windshield.

Just like I have one in the back, a little squirty nozzle sprays, and usually there's like two of them. One sprays the driver's side, one sprays the passenger's side. Not the 2024 Civic. Are they in the wipers? Yeah. Oh, that's what the Volvo is. It's something. And I understand why they do this. What it has is...

The wiper squirty things, they're not in the blades. I mean, they take regular wiper blades. You can just replace them with any wiper blades. The wiper blades are dumb. Like there's nothing smart in them. But the little arm that holds the wiper blade has the squirty thing in it. So the stuff squirts out basically just in front of the wiper blade, right? Like right there with the wiper blade. So as you swipe the wiper blade, it is squirting stuff in front of the wiper blade as it goes.

now i i would imagine their motivation is this first of all with the old one when you pull the little stock or whatever and it goes squirt squirt squirt there are situations where you could effectively be blinding the driver in a quickly moving car because that spray sprays onto the windshield and instantly freezes into ice or smears some mud or dust that was on there or whatever and now you're waiting like oh my god i can't see anything you're hoping those wiper blades come

and sweep away the mess you just made and if you're lucky they do and if you're unlucky it like flash froze onto your thing because your windshield washer fluid was the wrong concentration and now you can't see and you're going 60 miles an hour on the highway you don't want to be in a situation where you

spray a bunch of gunk on your windshield, and then rely on the correct functioning of the blades to swipe it away. With this technique, where they're on the blades, the only place you're putting it is right in front of where the blade is about to move into. And you're not spraying the entire window all at once. You're just spraying the region in front of the blade.

So maybe there's a safety issue there. Maybe it is a little bit better. Maybe it's a more efficient use of liquid. So you're not spraying most of it into the air. So it's just blowing over the car. How much of it actually contacts the windshield? How much of it stays on the windshield? Here, you're squirting it directly on the windshield.

But now you've got this problem where the little arms have little hoses on them and little squirty things. And it's just one more fragile thing to go wrong and not mess with when you're.

they're fumbling in the ice and snow maybe people don't know don't live around snow thinks that snow is like i don't know invisible or easy to deal with but like you know wet icy snow that's frozen onto your car and everything like it's not as simple as it's not just like this fluffy white powder that just moves out of the way like it can it can encase your car in hard stuff that you want to chip it out of but you don't want to chip it's like it's like chipping out a baby from like a giant stone

thing you want to get the stone off but you don't want to use a jackhammer because you kill the baby my car is the baby in this scenario right so i there's ice coating everything i can't even get the blades up into service position because everything is frozen in place but i don't want to

crack them out of it was those little tubes going into the arms to go up to do the squirter thingies and in the old way at least i could like know where the squirters were and like try to clean them off and clean off the nozzle they have a clear shot but now the squirters are facing down and they're inside the ice encrusted blades

it is a much more delicate operation than it was before. And I guess this is the march of technology. Although my wife thinks that the wiper arms quarters are not as good as the old ones, just flat out in performance wise. But again, I kind of see why they do it, but like. It is making the process of chiseling my car out of its icy prison or my wife's car out of its icy prison a lot more complicated than it used to be. And I'm not entirely sure that the trade-offs are worthwhile.

Fun. What do you think of your wiper blade squirty things, Casey? John, I am a civilized human who parks in the garage and we get, we very rarely get snow. Uh, we did just get snow twice actually. So it does happen, but despite what you melted away instantly instead of. Instead of snow that falls having to be there until March.

Well, that's your own fault for living in the wrong section of the country. But nevertheless, no, I think in general, like in decent conditions, I like having them in the wiper blade. That being said, I went to replace the wiper blades in her last Volvo once.

And I had gotten whatever, you know, reasonably not crappy ones I could find on Amazon. And then they arrived and I went to install them in the car. And whatever the mounting situation was for the wipers I got was in direct physical conflict with.

the sprayer for the wiper fluid. So I quickly ended up saying, I'm not going to bother with this and trying to research what third-party thing will work. And so I just pulled a Marco and threw money at the problem and just went to Volvo and got some new wiper blades from them. OEM, and on that front, OEM wiper blades aren't usually really any more expensive than good third-party ones. Unlike so much OEM things where it costs a bazillion dollars to get the official one from your car manufacturer.

Wiper blades is not the case. Now, maybe they're not as good as the third party ones you would get for the same price. But if you're worried about like I need wiper blades that exactly fit my car, the OEM ones are not that expensive. You just go to your dealer and buy them like 20 bucks each or whatever. They're a lot more expensive.

I think then crappy things you can get from Amazon, but they're at least not crappy anyway, but they're, they're about the same price as the really good third party ones that you can get. That's probably true. But one way or another, I like having them, leaving the replacement issue aside, I like having them in the blade. My car... Both of our cars do the hideaway, the blades thing when the car is, you know, in a steady state, if you will. But I...

I don't really mind that generally speaking. And, uh, again, I don't have to deal with snow on a regular basis. Do you, do you know, do you even know the process of getting yours out? Uh, I certainly did on her old car. think i do on mine i don't i don't i'm sure i could figure it out fairly quickly but i don't remember off the top of my head um but yeah i mean it's not terribly difficult it's just stuff in the center concept you think it's on a touchscreen somewhere yeah exactly

I mean, it is what it is. Modern cars for you, baby. And speaking of modern, oh, well, actually, before we move on, how is the on-road performance of the Civic? Like, does it go reasonably well in the snow? I drove my wife's car for the first time like a week ago. Oh, okay. So what did you think of it? We were on the streak of me just not driving. First, I was not driving.

because I didn't want to be the first one to scrape the wheels, but then she scraped the wheels, but still I didn't drive it. It was just, you didn't want to break the streak, but she was away for a while and I had to move cars. So I did actually drive her car to move it out of the driveway. I drove it around the block to see what it was like. It's fine.

nice um i like it's i bought this car because we talked about before like i can barely fit in it because it's got a sunroof so i would not choose this car for myself but she likes it Oh, fair enough. For me, I have a little bit of car follow-up. I am mad with power, gentlemen, because I have installed Home Assistant, which I think we briefly have touched on a handful of times. Are you putting Yolink things in your car?

No, although, man, if I could find a way, I would do it. See if your sunroof is leaking. Oh, funny. Well, you have a sunroof now, too, big guy. Not me, my wife's car. Oh, yeah. You have nothing to do with your wife's car. Not a thing.

drove it the first time we've had it for like six months anyway uh there is maybe this has been here for a while and i just didn't realize it but there is a integration between home assistant like a community integration between home assistant and and volvo's like apis for controlling the car and oh baby i don't even know what i'm going to do with myself because

I installed this integration, which was challenging for uninteresting reasons, but I installed the integration like three hours ago, and within an hour of it being installed, I've already written an automation such that if the... If it's a weekday and the car is plugged in at about 10 minutes before she leaves in the morning to drop the kids off at school, it will precondition the car. This is stuff that Tesla owners have probably been doing for 10 years, but now...

I can do it. And the other thing is, I bet you I could do this in the Volvo app, but I don't care. I can do it through Home Assistant now. I've got a hammer. Everything's a nail, baby. And so this is very exciting for me. I can get like a readout in Home Assistant of the battery level.

of whether it's charging or not. And I think I can even tell roughly when it'll be done charging. Can you put it in your menu bar so you can put it in your menu bar and see what your wife's car's battery is like? Yep. Don't know why I would. But I could. Now I feel like you've nerd sniped me. I just kind of want to see if I can. But anyways, this is way too much fun.

I feel like, again, everything is a nail because now I've got the world's biggest hammer. And that's my quick bit of car-related follow-up for today. Marco, how's your car in the snow and everything else? And how was it on the long trip?

So far, it's been great. I mean, I haven't had it in many demanding snowy environments. So I don't know how it compares to actual off-roaders I've had before because it's not the... ix is not an off-roader it has it has all-wheel drive the same way you know most modern bmws have all-wheel drive and it has the benefits of electric drive of like you know very high torque and everything but it is not in any way

a good off-road choice compared to any other regular SUV. Can you lift your wiper blades up with your hands without doing anything else? i don't know i'll have to check but they do have the squirters in the blades which i also had in the land rover and i guess it's everywhere now So I actually prefer the squirters and the blades because not only does it, as you mentioned, John, you have kind of less blinded time as the winch is sprayed, but also...

It uses way less fluid to get a full sweep because you don't have to like... Hold it down for a second, and then the wiper blade goes across and scoots it over, and then you squirt a little bit more to get under the blade. You don't have to do that dance. You can just squirt a little bit of it, and it coats the whole windshield way better with less fluid.

Less of it is spraying off into the air and doing nothing. You know the people who have like their squirters are not aimed correctly and you're driving behind them and they just send off this spout like a whale and it just splatters onto your windshield? Yeah, exactly. So I find it's nicer in every...

way and i have not yet found a downside um so other other than those um the car has been pretty great i've had a couple of like minor software things where like sometimes You know, the iPhone won't unlock it very quickly. I think, honestly, that's probably the iPhone's fault because I usually run beta iOS's and they exchange the Bluetooth details all the time in iOS betas for some reason. So that's probably the phone's fault, not the car's fault. Other than that...

It's been pretty great. I love CarPlay. In fact, there was a story that breathed through the news today, real quick, that apparently BMW's next-gen... uh iDrive system everyone's saying like it's barely going to support carplay and what they mean by that is it's not going to support dual screen carplay it's going to keep having carplay just like in the main screen and not in the secondary like driver cluster but

As far as I can tell, I don't think my car supports the driver cluster second screen anyway. And the iX is supposed to have one of their most cutting edge...

iDrive systems and one of their most cutting-edge CarPlay integrations. I mean, it's a few years old now. The model's a few years old now, so maybe it's not as new as the newest ones, but I already don't have the second screen, and I don't... think i would want the second screen uh i think like this is probably a bigger discussion for a different day but i think carplay the way it is implemented in most cars which is just like the window on the main screen

I think that is CarPlay's best self. They should never have tried to branch out any more than that because that was never going to work and there's other downsides to it. And I think having it be in that screen both, you know, keeps the automakers... happier about keeping it there, achieves a nice balanced functionality with the users and everybody. It gives the car enough room on its UI.

to show what the car needs to show things like you know like when you have an assisted driving feature it will usually have some option to show in the middle like here's your car and here's a map of ahead of it here's the car that we think is there and you know kind of show like a visual

like the cars around you as the car sees them or your following distance or your cruise control settings or whatever, that all goes in the main cluster. So I like having CarPlay in its little or... in the case of the ix in its giant rectangle on the main screen i don't think it needs to go anywhere else i think having it try having it try to take over everything was probably the wrong strategy for apple and also

Apple doesn't put a lot of effort into CarPlay. So I think having it be in its rectangle on the main screen matches the amount of effort Apple puts into it. I don't think Apple makes CarPlay good enough. bug-free enough or reliable enough or full-featured enough to have it take over the whole dash so i think carplay in the rectangle is exactly where it needs to be and by the way remember uh carplay 2.0

The next gen CarPlay, you remember that? Oh, yeah, yeah, wherever the hell that, that's gone. Coming in 2024. Yeah, that's, I mean, look, that's, they're walking away whistling. Like, that's gone. Like, we all know that's gone. It's up in Apple heaven with air power. I think Apple is still insisting that this is still coming from some car manufacturers, but they keep revising. I think they announced it in 2022. Nowhere to be seen. An Apple story for all.

2024 is totally it's coming in 2024 from one of these manufacturers that did not happen no it's not going to happen like that's that's fine anyway so i love having carplay in what is a good version of regular CarPlay. It's still the one rectangular screen in the middle of the car. It's a good version of that on a nice big... good screen. So I like that a lot. And yeah, otherwise, I'm very happy with the car.

I disagree slightly with regard to the multi-screen CarPlay thing. It is nice to have, like in Aaron's car, it'll do multi-screen. And it is nice to have a map right there in the instrument cluster rather than... only in the center screen. I think perhaps you've been...

uh, tainted by having many cars where the screen was, you know, this giant thing in the center and there's little to nothing in the, uh, in the instrument cluster. But one way or another, I do like having it there. It's not critical, but I like it. Uh, and I think.

A lot of the brouhaha with regard to BMW, from what little I read, is that it is a regression insofar as they were supporting that previously in most of their cars, perhaps not the electric ones, and they soon will not be anymore. And people were pretty... grumbly about that.

All in all, I mean, I do quite like having CarPlay. I still will not buy a car without it. You know, people keep saying to me, especially with regard to our conversations a few weeks ago, oh, you should buy the Rivian R3 when it comes out because it'll surely be cheap enough. Sure. But...

I'm not going to buy a car without CarPlay. I just won't. And you might think me a moron for that, and that's fine. I don't care. I will not buy a car without CarPlay because I just don't want to do it. I don't want to rely on an automobile manufacturer's software in order to... to have the infotainment that I want in my car. I don't want to have to use Overcast via Bluetooth. I want the damn CarPlay app. And I will not buy a car without it, at least. And so...

I'm hopeful that CarPlay is not dead in its entirety, even though it does appear that next-gen CarPlay was never born, much less has died or anything like that. But, oh well.