Steve Pratt of Pacific Content

good about Canada. Steve Pratt on the show. He has a principal at Pacific Content, the first branded content podcast company in the world, and he's also the host of a few podcasts, including one I Really love called Slack Rody Pack check it out. When she was researching the subject of happiness, she noticed a common pattern with the people she was talking to. The people who are facing a happiness challenge most often pointed to a habit as the obstacle. He's not only the principle and co founder

of Pacific Content. I'd like to to think of him as a friend and I'm gonna be honest a tour Steve Pratt High, Steve, Hello, Maddie, how are you doing. I'm doing great? Pacific Content is not a company that most people will know about because what you do is something that is new for a lot of folks. Branded content podcasting. You've done a lot of them. I just think to start off, maybe we should just tell people what what exactly is a branded content podcast? And are

we still calling them that or is their new name? Yeah, it's it's it's it's interesting we started um calling them branded podcasts UM up until and then we we've actually changed the language to say that we make original podcasts with brands. And it sounds like a very small difference, but it's a fairly big one, uh, for a couple of reasons. The core of the business is trying to

make fantastic shows that are funded by brands. And you know, I think initially when you say branded content, there's probably a connotation around ei they're trying to sell me something or this is going to be heavy handed marketing, And basically, change the language to original podcast with brands is that's not what we're making. We are making shows that are designed to be everybody's compelling as any of your other

favorite shows. That's kind of the only way that they'll build an audience is if it's a great Joe, and it's more around the idea that some of the most interesting media companies in the future are going to be non traditional places like brands, and some of your favorite shows in the future are going to come from brands that are going to be smart and start acting and

thinking more like media companies. UM. So, our job as a company is to work with brands and help them figure out how to map their brand and their strategy into a show that people genuinely love and it is an original show, not a piece of marketing. Let's talk about a couple of the show so everybody understands what exactly we're talking about. Let's start with the first one that that I was aware of, and one of the things that drew me to talk to you the first

time was Slack Variety Pack. Now tell people about that show and and how it came about. Yeah, so, we're all a bunch of ex traditional media people, mostly from the Canadian public radio system, like the Canadian equivalent of NPR, and we noticed a couple of interesting trends going on. One that, UM, a lot of tradition media companies were missing their ad revenue targets every year because people were

using you know, PVRs or DVRs to skip ads. Advertising was moving into digital spaces where people couldn't skip things as much. Um we're seeing the rise of companies like Red Bull who were making really compelling original programming in the video space that was not about their product or services, but it was more about how it made you feel.

And then we also saw the rise of Serial kind of notewhere in the podcasting space that was you know, I think we saw the first ten years of podcasting UM as almost like the democratization of the the publishing tools and the distribution where anybody could make a podcast for next to nothing. There were no gatepers anymore, and I think the result was there's a lot of amazing shows, and tons of people made shows that never would have made shows, but the bulk of them were going to

be unedited interview shows. And Serial kind of changed the game when that came out with this amazing, highly produced narrative series that grabbed everybody's attention. And I think all of those factors kind of lead to people thinking, you know what, podcasts are have enormous amount of potential to come Netflix for radio where people are going to choose amazing high quality stuff on demand on their own schedule and program their commutes and their workout and their dog

walks and whatever else they're doing. UM. So we we kind of recognize that there's nobody doing that in the audio space, and we literally just pitched slack we We we kind of fin called a meeting with the CMO, a guy named Bill Massitis when he was in Vancouver for a meeting, and he was the first person we pitched it too, and he said, yes, it was We were just like, oh, holy moly, I can't believe this. Now we have to figure out how to make this

show for slack um. And you know, we kind of we kind of worked fairly collaboratively with them, but a lot of it was kind of inventing it as as we went and trying to balance this idea of like, we need to figure out what Slacks voices an audio, we need to figure out how to represent what they stand for an audio, and we also need to make a show that is really fun to listen to. And I think it was one of the first examples of of a brand going out doing a high quality storytelling

show that had interesting guests and stories in it. UM and they got a lot of traction from it. So from us, we were very fortunate to kind of connect with a really progressive, smart company that wanted to take a risk and do something like this, and because they did it, it made it easier for us to get a lot of other clients and to be able to, you know, use Slack Variety Pack as a showcase for what's possible for for brands and what the value is

of building a fairly large audience fairly quickly. So Slack Variety Pack at the beginning. Now you guys have moved on to how many shows now is specific content producing for for brands? Uh, It's kind of it fluctuates. Uh. I think right now we're about seven or eight shows in production right now. Um, but you know we have shows that are kind of in between seasons and onboard

new clients and things. So it does change. But it's really interesting, Like every every year in the fall, it seems like there's a new evolution of like the next level of brands coming into the space and wanting to make podcasts, and it's getting easier and easier to be able to talk about making amazing shows with all the clients too, Like I think in the first year we were just wanting anybody to say yes so we could prove the model and make podcasts and make this a thing.

And then last year around this time, we're you know, having an influx of like some pretty big brands like Prudential came in. UM we started mostly with tech companies out of Silicon Valley, and then you know, when you get somebody Prudential coming in, like a big insurance company, it's like next level piece. And I think last year the focus was on kind of growing better quality shows

and thinking about different formats of storytelling. And then for us, it's really been around figuring out the audience development piece with brands at a new level where you know, it's it's kind of interesting when you think about it, but brands have kind of a huge unfair advantage to be able to build audiences really quickly because they have all these built in strengths that they probably have not ever

used to build an audience for the show before. UM. So we're just like, for example, we're doing show with Mozilla, and when there's a new podcast episode, you can open a new tab in Firefox and underneath the search bar is a promo for the podcast and it's driving tons and tons of listeners coming in, and you know it wouldn't work it was if it was a bad show. But it's a great show and they've got a tool that they own, they're gonna let tons and tons of

people know about it. Um So has really been a year for us around like keep making the show is better, but like really think about how to go from zero to a big audience really quickly with kind of like the secret superpowers of every company we work with. I want to switch gears and talk about about you, Steve, my friend. This is this is where, this is where it's gonna get boring. Well, now this is where I get to you know, I've I wanna I'll just I

wanna tell everybody how I met you. I was writing a paper for my graduate school class and I was, you know, I teach a branded content class at the university that I work at, and I've been in podcasting for ten years, and I was like, hmm, I wonder if anybody's doing branded content podcasting, And I, you know, just did Google searches and there's one name in one

name only that popped up several times. It was Steve Pratt, and I sent Steve an email and immediately we met like a week later, and and and it's I'm so glad I sent that email to start with. So this is a good chance. I want to know. I don't think I've ever gotten it really into to your story about about your radio story. Um, you know we all have that story of how we ended up in this this messed up business. What did you start thinking about radio as a career? And you know, we're we always

into it. Well, it's kind of interesting, like I, um, I actually started my career in television. Um no, all right, and this is but I ended up in radio. I landed in radio after television, so it's I uh yeah. I was oddly like in university, I was kind of on track to go to law school and I've been doing a bunch of calm and improv and stuff like that when I was in university and was was loving it. And then I kind of had this, you know, crisis. I was saying, like, I don't think I really want

to be a lawyer. Um, I want to do something fun. And I got a summer job at a TV station in Toronto, and I was just totally hooked at being able to go out and tell stories and you know, do something that actually got a reaction from audiences, or be able to kind of put a spin on a story that made it fun and interesting and exciting to listen to or watch. UM and I spent about ten years doing all sorts of different television, from entertainment journalism

to comedy programming, two kids programming. I worked at a music network called Much Music that was kind of like the equivalent of MTV in Canada. I used to watch Much Music. By the way, well there you go. So we had it on, and we had it on in the United States. It'd come on like weekends and stuff.

They'd have some shows on. But so yeah, yeah, So I was really like got to work in a ton of interesting places is with a ton of different programming formats and different audiences, and everyone was kind of like a new creative challenge to figure out what is it, what's the you know, the way to reach this audience and do something that's creative and fun for them that's different than the last one I did. UM And then after that I got a job at a O l UM.

I was really interested in this is around, you know where when the Internet was blowing up and they were doing some really interesting stuff with online only content. And I've done a bunch of you know, digital stuff in the TV side, but it was really more of a secondary piece to TV, where the company's primary business with television, and I wanted to go to a place where their only business was the Internet and where they were doing all sorts of really progressive, interesting stuff to figure out

audiences on the Internet. And I learned so much there, um, just around what works and measuring different ideas and be testing headloins and photos and all sorts of different things. Um. And oddly enough, one of my old colleagues at Much Music was at the Canadian Public Broadcaster and said to me, you know, like I recommended you for this job running this weird new music service at the Public Broadcaster because

it's a mix of traditional media and digital um. And because I've done all the television and different formats and worked at a music service, and then because I also worked at a o L, I landed in this insanely cool gig at a place called CBC Radio three, and it was an online only music service that was launching a satellite radio station on Sirius XM, and it was only for new and independent Canadian artists, so if you're an established artist, you couldn't get played. If you weren't Canadian,

you couldn't get played. Um. And it was the most niche thing you could ever imagine. And in a way, it was almost like a media lab where we got to try out all sorts of cool ideas around building communities and you know, trying different strategies for artists discovery. And very soon after I started is when podcasting started.

You know, that Adam Curley Show was starting in I first heard it in late two thousand four and I started in fall of two thousand four, and we realized that all these indie artists that we were playing owned all their own rates, and that we could we should try podcasting. Um. It would be an amazing way to get music out to new people who are looking for podcasts, and nobody else had the rights to put music out there. So we launched one of the world's first music podcast

that was actually legal. And when they launched podcasting inside of iTunes in I don't know, like May or June of two thousand five, they featured this CBC Radio three podcast worldwide and it just blew up. And it helps obviously that there's like ridiculously good independent Canadian music coming out of that time. This is like in the early days of Arcade, fire and Taking and Sarah and the new pornographers and Feist and broken Social scene and all

this stuff. But anyways, a long story short. That was a really long story. But I've been in podcasting for for a long time as a result of all those weird factors kind of coming together, and you know, it was podcasting how a little bit of a dip in, you know, after its initial few years of catching on fire. I think Facebook and YouTube and Twitter kind of took some of the fire and attention away from podcasting. And it's kind of crazy that it's back and growing and

bigger than ever. And it's the most creative work I've ever done right now, working with a really wide variety of interesting clients and just an amazing group of storytellers. Here, we're like really genuinely having an awesome time making really fun shows. What is the deal with Canadian radio? Tell me the rules? I somebody I was. I was in Canada for a semester once um in in in college, and you have to play a certain amount of Canadian music.

What is that? Yeah? So um and this is this is so hard to try and describe to an American audience. But uh, there is a big part of Canadian culture that is um dominated by American culture. Where you know we're right you know, we're right next to you. And almost all the Canadian cities are right close to the American border, uh, because you know, you go further north

and that it's too cold to exist. Um, So we get all American TV stations, we get loads of American radio, and as a result, it's really hard for Canadian artists to stand out. And the government in Canada, on the for Canadian broadcasters has a series of regulations called ken

Con rules, which is Canadian content um. And if you're a radio station or if you're a TV station, you have to create a certain amount of Canadian content if you're like making shows, and if you're a radio station playing music, you have to play a certain percentage of Canadian music. And there's different tiers of Canadian music, like you can only play this much hit Canadian music that

you actually have to play some emerging Canadian music. And it's designed to help build a star system and help expose Canadian artists to Canadians as well as you know obviously around the world, but it's really focused on career development for Canadians those very very unusual it doesn't exist

in America. I love it. I think it's great and it's just one of those one of those things that I always thought was it was really cool and I think and I had no idea about your your first podcast in doing Canadian music like that is you know,

those early days of podcasting. I sometimes forget that I've been in the business for for ten years because it really did feel at the beginning like we were gonna like take over the world, and it was a no, maybe not, and then Syrial came out, was like, hey, we gonna take over the world, and then okay, maybe not. And then but I feel like the last year and a half two years there's been just just great progress. What do you what do you see the future of podcasting? Uh? Going?

You know what, It's funny because it is it has been now like thirteen years or something like that since since they first came out. So when I say it feels like a very young industry or it's in an infant in its infancy. Um Like, it's it's weird to say that, but I'm going to say that. I think we're still in the very early stages of what podcasting

cannon will become. Um. I think on the technology side, there's still a whole bunch of people who have not figured out how to get a podcast and having't figured out how to connect their car to their phone and program their own commute. Um. I think that's going to get better. And the more and more, you know, maybe even connected cars will be just downloading podcasts into your car. Uh. The easier that that that process gets for people, the

more people are going to start listening to podcasts. And I think even creatively, we're still in the very early days of what a podcast can even be. That I know, on just literally on our team, there's probably still you know, dozens of show formats or types of storytelling that we haven't been able to do yet and that we haven't necessarily heard in podcasts yet that are waiting to be done.

Um Like, it's it's funny like the we're doing a show with McAfee about cybersecurity called Hackable, and the guy

who's the host and the producer of the show. Jeff Siskin has a strong radio background, but he also did a bunch of television programming, and the idea that they came up with for the show was to take kind of like the idea of a MythBusters like format and apply it to cybersecurity in podcasting, so that you know, every episode is kind of like a a scene from a movie or TV show where you see a hacker doing something and boom, they've hacked it in like five seconds,

and they wanted to test to see is that actually possible and how worried should you be about somebody hacking you? And so they actually get hackers to do it every episode, and usually it's Jeff getting hacked. Jeff as is he

said so much of his life hacked on this show. Um, but the but the idea of saying, like, we're not just going to have cybersecurity experts on and interview them and get tips that we're going to build a format around, you know, taking this scene that people are probably familiar with and then having real hackers do it and you're kind of following along to see if he's going to get hacked and what you should be able to do to not get Hacked is infinitely more compelling than the

expert interview sort of thing. So um, I think I think there's tons and tons of ideas that are going to be brought into podcasting as it keeps evolving. And honestly, like even just even just I Heeart that you know, the company that you work or putting more and more into podcasting this year, and you've got podcasting as a bigger part of your mobile app. I bet there's tons of people who listen to radio in the mobile app that are going to have their first podcasting experience this year.

So um, you know, obviously biased, but I'm pretty foolish on where podcasting is going. It's funny yesterday I was listening to Dirty John on my Heart and I looked at the comments and there were three people who would commented, this was my first podcast. And I do feel that with my heart we are really, you know, we're really bringing podcasting to the radio audience for the first time.

And and and it's new for everybody here. It's new for you know, for the you know, most of my talent that are doing podcasting they've never done one before. And uh and and it's in the amount of ideas, and I agree with you. I think there are so many formats yet to be tapped into into podcasts. It's

really it's it's exciting and overwhelming sometimes at the same time. Well, it's interesting like the Dirty John when you you brought up um, like I was listening to your one with Max from podcast, Uh, you know another true crime company, and Dirty John is a true crime thing. There's lots of true crime and podcasting, So why did Dirty John

break out and become this massive hit? It's really interesting, like just the same as I heart it's I personally think they've just done a massive smart marketing campaign where the l A. Times is a huge part of bringing people who may read the l A Times and go to the website. But I've never listened to a podcast before, and all of the Dirty John story is in the l A. Times, and there's big full page ads and things where they're bringing podcast to a whole new audience.

I think, I mean, And it's not that it's not a good show, it's just that I haven't seen like a huge smart marketing campaign that's more like Hollywood or a TV network campaign for a podcast before like this. And the guy who runs the Wondering Podcast Network, Hernand Lope as the next TV executive. Uh. Just you know, huge kudos for like treating podcasts like a major medium and getting people excited about a new show. Yeah. I agree with you too, because I liked it. You know,

I listened to it. It was a lot of hype and I'm like, oh, it's it was good. But yeah, I interviewed Phoebe Judge. Uh, she was on Last a week or two ago, and the same thing, like, if you like that, go listen to Criminal, Like they do this every week and they do all kinds of stuff on criminals. So I think it will open it up to a lot more people. Yeah, No, it's exciting. It's funny. Yesterday I was listening to Dirty John on my Heart and I looked at the comments and there were three

people who would commented, this was my first podcast. And I do feel that with my heart we are really, you know, we're really bringing podcasting to the radio audience for the first time. And and and it's new for everybody here. It's new for you know, for the you know, most of my talent that are doing podcasting they've never done one before. And uh, and and it's in the amount of ideas, and I agree with you. I think there are so many formats yet to be tapped into

into podcasts. It's really it's it's exciting and overwhelming sometimes at the same time. Well it's interesting, like the Dirty John when you you brought up um, like I was listening to your one with Max from podcast, Uh, you know, another true crime company, and Dirty John is a true crime thing. There's lots of true crime and podcasting, So why did Dirty John break out and become this massive hit.

It's really interesting, like just the same as I heart it's I personally think they've just done a massive smart marketing campaign where the l A. Times is a huge part of bringing people who may read the l A Times and go to the website. But I've never listened to a podcast before, and all of the Dirty John story is in the l A. Times and there's big full page ads and things where they're bringing podcast to

a whole new audience. I think. I mean, and it's not that it's not a good show, it's just that I haven't seen like a huge smart marketing campaign that's more like Hollywood or a TV network campaign for a podcast before, like this and the guy who runs the Wondering podcast Network, Hernan Lopez, is the next TV executive. Um just you know, huge kudos for like treating podcasts like a major medium and getting people excited about a new show. Yeah. I agree with you too, because I

liked it. You know, I listened to it. It was a lot of hype and I'm like, oh, it's it was good. But I interviewed Phoebe Judge, Uh, she was on last a week or two ago, and the same thing, Like, if you like that, go listen to Criminal, Like they do this every week and they do all kinds of stuff on criminals. So I think it will open it up to a lot more people. Yeah, no, it's exciting. Alright, Steve, we're gonna end up with I. I like to still do my cheesy radio segments and this one's called three

Killer Questions. I'm gonna ask you three questions and this is not related to true crime though. Actually you know what I will. I have one question that I switched up once in a while. I asked people what kind of sandwich would they be? And I believe I've i interview you some other time and ask you that. So I'm gonna ask you. I'm gonna tell you. I I don't know, but I have to tell you because I I'm obsessed with schwartz Is smoked meat sandwiches in Montreal.

It's the greatest sandwich on earth. You if you go to if you ever go to Montreal smoked meat schwartz Is and ask for extra fatty. Just just don't worry about the health thing. Go for extra fatty. It's the greatest sandwich you'll ever have in your life. That's what I would be. That's so yeah, well what I'm drooling? Yeah? Well, if if you were you were gonna be a criminal? Kind of criminal? Would would you? Would you be? Oh? No, I don't even you know what. I have kids. I can't. Wow,

it must be bad. I have kids. Criminal? No, no, no, I you know what I'm like. I what could I possibly say that? It's not gonna make me sound creepy if I tell what a grim I want to be. What was the first piece of technology that you used and said this is going to change my life? Oh hey, this dates me, um, but it was probably an atari um like game console when I was a kid. Um. I remember getting that for Christmas with my brother, and it was things like pac Man and Space Invaders, and

it was just like, holy moly, this has changed. This has changed everything. But what we're gonna do with our spare time, Yeah, from now on. And it's funny like I you know, I, like I said, I have kids, they are they have you know, phones or screens or whatever. It's bizarre to think of how much things have changed and how far they have come since I was a

kid in that situation. But yeah, it was. It's quite funny too because we did we do this show with UH with Dell called Trailblazers with Walter Isaacson, and one of the episodes we did a while ago was about the history of innovation in the video game industry and we got to talk to Nolan Bushnell, who's the guy who invented Pong and Atari and all that sort of stuff,

and like just a crazy, genius, smart guy. But it totally brought me back to my childhood and reminded me of like, yeah, that was that was really revolutionary stuff that you know, you just weird to think that had never existed before. You kind of went from you know, watching Magnum p I after school or Mash or something like that to being able to go do you know pac Man and Space Invaders? Is it was pretty cool? Or actually being outside like yeah, exactly. Yeah, my nephew

get nature in sports and healthy things. We're just gonna sit in front of the screen. My nephews are like those uh, those salamanders that never leave caves. They burned up in the sun. Last question, super easy. What was the last podcast you binged? It was Dirty John? Yeah,

it's funny. So we have we have a podcasting club um at our company where every week we pick a different podcast and then you know, kind of unlike a mored more traditional podcaster book club where you kind of talk about you know, talk about what you got out of it or whatever. We're because we're a podcasting company, we dissect them more around like from an industry craft point of view, around like what worked, why did they make these choices? What would we have done differently? What

do you think they're trying to do with this? Um? So we all our whole company BINGE listened to Dirty John this week. UM and we just had a big massive session that kind of discussion session about it yesterday, which was which is interesting. Ah, that's the same with me. I just I binged it yesterday. I was sitting at where I was like, hey, let's just binge this one. All right, Steve Pratt, thanks for coming on uh and

good luck and listen to all the shows. They've got a Pacific hyphen Content dot com to check out all the shows. Thanks Steve, Hey, thanks man, this is really fun and congrats to the new podcast. I love it. So now is the time of this where my lovely talented producer and legal midget Z walks into the studio. I look for her because she's so small. Where where are you? Z? And then we talked about some podcasts that you should be listening to. Z. Was that last

segment just too geeky for people? I mean, I honestly was about to tell you that that was one of my favorite episodes because you guys just knew so much. And I feel like, for any this episode, for anybody that's trying to get into podcasting, this is what they should really listen to because the inside information it was it was dope. It was dope. I can't wait. I can't wait to tell Steve rat that He'll be like dope A he's so Canadian isn't it. Yeah, And every

time he says about it was Yeah. The first time I talked to I talked to the first time I listened to him on slack cast. Um, you know, i'd already met him and I I called him. I'm like, he was like, what do you think? I'm like, it's good, but you're you're just so so Canadian. It's you can also hear the politeness in his voice. Who's just so nice? Like they are. I I love Canadians. Yeah, and I love Steve Pratt. If you couldn't tell, I'm I'm such

a fan of that guy. So anyway, we were talking a lot about branded content and podcasting and if you listen by now, hopefully you figured out what they are. But there are a lot of I mean, the thing is, the point of them is too are to be good podcasts. So, um, there's a lot of good ones out there, and you've checked out a few. I'm glad. I'm anxious to hear

which ones that you like. So the first one I picked was from Pacific Content and I'm really into tech and like where tech is going, and that's called Trailblazers with Walter Isaacson and They describe it as digital disruption and how innovators are using tech to enable human progress. And I thought that was super interesting because nowadays people really talk about tech on how it's the opposite of how it's not good for us and how it's ruining

our communication. But this whole podcast is how it's advancing us in the good ways, and it's really interesting in Walter Isaacson is brilliant. He was the former I read former CNN chairman and CEO. Oh yeah, well Walter, I mean, he's he's a huge name, and when he came into the podcasting world, it was it's a it's a big deal.

And I tell people all the time that say that to me, you know, because I work at a university, I work with a lot of young folks and and I always say, how many people did you talk to in the course of a day when you were nineteen and and the answer is probably less than ten. Where someone your age talks to between ten and twenty people every day, you just don't talk to them in the same way that we do. It's not like we're bad communicators, we just communicate in different ways. Let's check out this

cool podcast. You may not have heard of Layon de la Grange, but everybody there's ever flown as a passenger in an airplane shares a special bond with him. Somewhere in France. On a blush streak day in March night, de Lagrange wedged himself in beside the pilot and a Voi sam biplane and a few minutes later became the first ever airplane passenger. He's so smart, it's like my grandfather is teaching me something. I have to say that he was old. Well, you know, he just sounds I'm old. Yeah,

I like it all right. What else you got? Next? One from your favorite people? Gimlet? Yeah, I do like them? You do. Um. It's called Open for Business and it's Brandon Content with eBay, and it's about building a business from the ground up, and it ranges in episodes from hiring and firing to how to deal and survive failure, which I think is such an important thing for when you're trying to start your own business because failure comes

with it. So I think it's a really great podcast for anybody that's wanting to start their own business and where in the age of startup. So I think for anybody that's trying to do that. It's open for business, it's good. Andrea lives in a tiny German town called Reading It. Bow's business is based near Kansas City, Kansas. Andreas in the yarn business, Bow runs a tech company. Here's what they have in common. They've both watched your

businesses fail and they've survived to tell the stories. And you can tell it's a gimlet podcast when you listen to it because of the it's just a storytelling. It's the way they tell stories. So that's that's gonna come with it. What else you got? So? My last one is from Shopify. It's with the company Shopify, which is an e commerce website where you can sell stuff online,

on social media or in person. And it's called t G I AM what stands for Thank God It's Monday, which is not something you really hear that often, but it's really geared towards entrepreneurs who are excited to start the work week and are trying to build their businesses, where they tell people like successful stories of really businesswomen and businessmen and it's really to just inspire young entrepreneurs. It's another one from Pacific Content to there we Go

All right. I really believe that i Q is really not as valuable as people think in today's entrepreneurial environment. I've really been spending a lot more of time on emotional intelligence and the three e Q traits that I think every entrepreneur has to focus on are the following. And I've got one more just just for you. Uh check out. It's called twice Around. It's produced actually by the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco. Oh yeah, they

do a few podcasts. This oneach two of the ladies that work at the bank and they talk about all kinds of issues and that are that that affect everyday life. Really well produced, good one. Go check that one out. You know, when we first decided Mary, that we were going to record an episode around bravery, the very first things that hop into my head as somebody running into a burning building and saving a baby. Oh yes, of course, yeah,

and very heroic and epic sort of behavior. And that's the thing that kind of comes up for me when I think about bravery. And on the other side of the continuum where heroic is on one side, comes the childhood braveries where we have to Jody Access podcast is produced by Zindana Down, Ziana, Zion, Elvis, I'll get it right. It's only even three years. Engineer David Williams and horsewall In artwork by Dalton Running Bird music composed by one

Casey Franco. And special thanks, of course to the God of podcasting Chris Peterson, Don Parker here in San Francisco and Katie Wilcox at I Heart Radio. Follow us on Facebook It's access podcast or on Twitter Access podcast one, and you can also follow me at Maddie Stout m A T T Y s t A U d T

on all platforms nobody else has that name. And download the free I Heart Radio app if you don't have it, because we've got all kinds of podcasts and the numbers are growing and growing and growing, and we want you to listen to them, share them with people, and then tell your friends to listen as well. Thanks