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John Wayne Gacy. He was a cult leader charismatic enough to manipulate his followers into committing murder on his behalf. And it's Manson's role as a cult leader and his ability to commit murder by proxy that makes him so memorable. Joining me now, Max Cutler, co founder and president of Podcast, the Creepiest of podcast companies. I don't know if creepy is the right word, but but you do have a specific genre that that you focus on, uh a podcast? Yes,

we do well, Thanks man for having me. We definitely are focused on true crime right now. Um, we're very much enjoying the true crime wave and capitalizing on it. I think it's safe to say, so, why do you think folks are so passionate and into true crime stories right now? Well, I think there's a lot of reasons right now. Um. Specifically one kind of our whole entire as a country, United States, the environment we're in. There's a lot of distrust going on, what is really happening?

Do we really know what is really happening? In many cases? Um, So I think we're really tapping into that. I think also, quite frankly, true crime kind of caters to our most powerful emotion, which is um fear. Um. I think that could we be a victim of true crime? Are we trying to figure out what causes people to commit crimes? Is a very interesting and strong motivation for our listeners, I know, and the kind of psychology behind it. Um. I also think, you know, looking at it really closely,

it's it's kind of like a puzzle piece. I'm trying to understand what makes someone do that, what makes them tick. In our case, we have a show called serial Killers. We're we're looking to the psychology of what molded a serial killer. And every day, you know, we get tons of emails about people just trying to understand what makes a person commit such horrible crimes. And I think there's there's really kind of a you know, searching for the information that we find very interesting. Do you have a

favorite serial killer? Um? You know, I I do not have a favorite serial killer. UM. I do find a lot of them extremely fascinating. From a story standpoint, I think that you know, looking at it, obviously, Ted Bunny is a huge serial killer. Everyone you know probably familiar

with Ted Bunny by name. Um, and just kind of under you know, from a psychology standpoint, just understanding Ted Bunny from someone that's able to really interact with people and act really normal and then and then be able to flip a switch it turned off to become this horrible monster. Is it's really a fascinating case study. And

that that case, you know, he's always fascinating me. Mind's gayzy just because I hate clar so I put John Wayne up there, but in general, so you know, one of the things I think that it makes your podcast stand out, and I think for a lot of the podcast that do well. And something I preach to my students who I teach at a university is that high quality production will always win and and and that is something that you your company in particular Partcast really takes

great pride because your your productions are just so well done. Um. Talk about the time and effort that goes into an episode for one of your podcasts, because there's a lot of elements going on in there. Yeah, well, I mean, first off, production value is the king. That's the most important thing here at podcasts, and we spend a lot of time making sure we get it as right as possible. Um.

For us, it's our number one differential statement. Quite frankly, there's over four thousand podcasts out there, not not all are active, but most of them do not put enough time or effort into production value, and that's something we take extremely seriously. Um. Depending on the show, we can spend up to thirty to forty hours on im producing a show. Uh an episode, Um, you know, Unsolved Murders, which is another show of ours, is a almost a modern take on old time radio where we have tons

of voice actors, sound effects, multiple beds. Um. You know, our sound design and engineer is, in my opinion, the best in the business. And he, of course he's sitting right here, um he uh, he doesn't a phenomenal job at really piecing together each episode and telling the story. Um, because for us that podcast, the most important thing is storytelling and there's many ways to do that and bringing

these stories to life. And so I mean besides from writing each script up going into sound effects, layering everything. It's it's a very complex process, but when we take very seriously. You know, one theme I get back to with the couple of the guests we've had on is is and you just said it is that that old time radio feel, you know, back when radio was radio drama. And I love that. That's where podcasting is taking radio.

For me, I left, you know, when I left radio to get in podcasting was because I felt radio was getting away from kind of you know, a lot of the entertainment value that we to have on it and more. Just hey, talk for twenty seconds, Um, so I want it talked about your influence, how radio has influenced you and and your dad who has it was kind of he is legendary in the radio business. Um, so you've been around a long time. Yeah, no, it's uh, it's

been a huge impact on my life. Um. Growing up in a radio household has probably why I started a podcast. And the first thing I did when I wanted to start podcast was get my dad out of retirement to be a consultant and co founder here with me, and he's you know, it's for me. I think it's weird to say it's great working with your dad, because so many people have horrible experiences, But for me, it's the best thing that I you know, that I'm able to do. He UM. For the people don't know, my dad was

in radio for most of his life. He started off as a disc jockey and then ended up UM becoming a very you know, lucky to create many top radio shows that he produced, as well as Color Productions and Color Commy Networks, UM. And so having that background, there's there's definitely something growing up in a household where creativity is king, and living in radio and audio is just inspiring.

And I think that both of us agreed when we you know, when we started this about eighteen months ago, now that unfortunately Radio UM and it's mixed feelings for us, Radio is kind of going downhill in many ways on the content side, and we really wanted to bring it back to a great storytelling, great narrative podcast and we think we've we've done that in the content. Um. But yeah, it's had a profound impact on me and everything we

do here. It's part of my job is I work as a digital program director in San Francisco, and our jocks have been retraining themselves and learning podcasting and getting back to that storytelling and they're really embracing it. And I see us as a radio company and I heart we're producing some really good podcast content. But you know, some of the older radio folks still kind of kick and scream and they don't understand it. They don't want

to be a part of it. How was that transition for your dad when you talk to him about podcasting? Was he embracing it right away or or was he one of the a little bit of a hold out at all. Well, I think for my dad there's mixed emotions. One, he embraced it right away because he saw the potential. He saw that the need for quite family to connect with an audience that was not happening up in radio any anymore. So he loved that aspect of it. But of course he grew up in radio. Radio is a

huge part of his life. Um, And so for him, I know it's mixed emotions that he feels that radio has really gone downhill in the quality of it. Um, and he wishes it was, you know, still there because it really did have a huge impact on his life. But now in the podcast space, it's a huge potential. It is the future. UM, you know, I know, it's

a fact. He talked two people in radio. They're they're starting to embrace the podcasting spaces you just mentioned, and those that aren't embracing the podcast space will start embracing the podcast space. Um. The numbers are just there. I mean, the last year alone, we grew I know, we have sixties seven million monthly listeners. We have, you know, revenue increased by five percent over year over a year, which

is the most crucial thing for radio. Um. Obviously we're still nowhere near where radio is on the advertising dollar side. But with that being said, I mean, podcasting is the future. I mean, if you look at it from a just a granular perspective, audio is really the last media that hasn't gone on demand televisions on a man, films on too many of the Netflix is of the world, Amazon's, et cetera. Audio really hasn't and in many ways, podcasting

is that. And as you have more and more companies, whether it be obviously Apple podcast now is really starting to gear up and take it more seriously. Um, Tune in Radio is taking it seriously. Stitcher, where I know you're very familiar with, is taking it seriously. So it's very interesting. Um. And of course our hearts taking it seriously, which is which is great news. UM. So we'll see,

you know, what happens in the future. But you know, in all honesty, you need to start embracing the podcast space because it is going to be the future in radio. We tend to deal with stalkers, fans, people to get a little too obsessed with our with our programs and ourselves. I know I've had a few with the kind of podcast that you do. Are there any folks that you know that are that you have to you know, deal

with on this. Are there people that want to correct you and tell you different things or give you theories? How is that interaction? Yeah, of course, um there. You know, it varies on the show in terms of how much interaction, but every show has interaction and we love it. It's a you know, the great thing about podcasting is it's really a conversation. It's not us telling them and we

want them to be involved with our programming. It shows that they really care and they listen, and so we have people every day emailing us, whether about a theory, if it's an unsolved murder episode, maybe who did it? Who done it? You know, it is very common for us. UM. We just launched a new show called Cults, and that show has done amazing for us, and UM the feedback has been so positive and people trying to understand and have their own theories of maybe why you know, Charles

Manson was the way he was for example. UM. We also, of course get criticism from time to time. UM, maybe a host spoke to quickly, maybe they thought that, um, we could have presented the information a different way, et cetera. But these are all great conversations and it just shows again how engaged the podcast community is. Just like radio quite frankly, when you have a great, great disc jockey.

So it's very similar in that regard. But I do think, you know, podcasting in general is a very intimate experience UM, and our listeners, I know, developer relationship with our hosts. We want them to develop a relationship with our host because at the end of the day if they feel like they know the host, they feel like they know um, they interact that much strongly and build up so much more of a connection that content. I want to talk about the new podcast Cults, which you can find on

I Heart Radio. Why Cults? Why did you get into that? I'll be honest, I got super into the Manson series and I just think that it's it's It's to me always say good podcast is like reading a book, and I'm just I'm in it. So I'm really into the new Cults podcast. Why did you guys choose that? Thank you? Yeah, this was something that I want to do for a while. Um, I felt that, you know, we've been really heavily in true crime, but we need to slowly kind of embrace

where true crime is going. And I think this is the next logical step. I think if you just talk to somebody and mentioned Charles Manson, the Family or any coal, it's amazing how they just perk up and get excited to talk about it, Like what makes them join the colt? How did they get mind washed? And for us, that was really what we wanted to answer, is the psychological how does somebody in the case of Charles Manson, for example, manipulate all these people to create murder by proxy in

his situation, but just to join a cult. And you know, for him, he wasn't a very um popular person growing up. He had to you know, and he yet he was able to control all these people. And it's a very interesting study. And also of course for us, it does have the true crime element to it, which is important to keep our brand identity there, but it also is kind of logically getting us a little away from from the traditional true crime which we want to do. You know,

we never want to chase the next year. That was something we're never going to do a podcast, and that something we never will do. Um. We want to present content in a different way, more of a storytelling and entertaining way, an informative way, and I think, you know, Colts is apparently really really really accomplishing that right now. And the timing is also really good as far as

American hor Story to win cults as well. So between American horse Story and your podcast, I've already got some folks lined up to join my cult and hopefully maybe in a couple of years will be to want to show about me. That's great. I hope. So they're they're called a podcast producers. My producers looking at me side died right now. No, that's not gonna work. Um, this might be a question, you know, for you or you know, maybe if you've talked to any of your producers while

they're doing these shows. You know, Stephen King once I read an article about when he was writing the book The Shining he would be in the middle of writing and kind of gets freaked out and stop writing and have to like go downstairs and be around people because he's kind of scaring himself. Um. Do you ever find yourself, you know, in the middle of you know, working on a podcast getting creeped out and a little freaked out. Yeah, well yeahtual, it's funny being that up. So yeah, this week,

actually we have a new podcast coming out called Haunted Places. Um, and I was reading the script at nighttime and I was the only one in the office here, and it got to a point where I had to take a break and just be like, Okay, this is this is you know, this is not really happening. Um. But yeah, I think that we do have times where we um have to take a step back from it. I don't think we necessarily have ever gotten freak freaked out in

the studio. Could be wrong, but I know we have very disturbing moments when um, we have to ask ourselves, quite honestly, should we be even you know how how much we want to delve into this in the details. Um, But and and the end of the day, you know it's um, we really haven't had any situations that we got scared by our content. I've got a segment that we're gonna do right now we do with every guest that's called three Killer Questions. And again I didn't name

it special for you. It's always three Killer questions. But I am changing the first question. Normally I would ask you, if you were a sandwich, what kind of sandwich would you be? But instead for you for Halloween, for podcast, if you were a serial killer? Which one would you be? What kind of serial killer would you be? What kind of serial killer would I be? A name or a more of it? A general A genre of serial killer,

ax X guy, poisoner. I don't know. I think I think I'd have to be more of a poison a poison er just because you know I don't do well with blood. To be honest, with you and so, And also I think you can probably get away with the crime a little it better if you're not there. But I've never never thought about that before. Um. But yeah, definitely definitely a poison or something something a little away from the crime scene. So don't you have to see

the person person? All right? Max Cutler? What technology in your life? Did you stop and go? This changed my life? The first one? Oh n'ten sixty four? That was easy though, without question, I'll never forget that happened. Yeah, I can always tell the age of who I'm interviewing with that question because depending on the technology that they pick out. And the last question is what's the last podcast that you binged? Oh s Town. I loved that podcast. It's

just reminding me I'm from West Virginia. Self was like, yeah, I know that guy. Yeah, yeah, that's it's a phenomenal. They did a phenomenal job with that podcast. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, they It's it when you hear podcasts like that, it's it's inspiring. Um and uh yeah, it's really I'm glad. I'm glad that you liked that one too. You can learn so much from them. Quite honestly, we learned a

lot from them. Um, it's it's great. It's just phenomenal from both the storytelling element just from a production call. It's just absolutely phenomenal. I do branded content podcasts and I I'm pretty much just hawk things that Gimblet have done because I like all this stuff. Gimblet does so much with us a great job, and they obviously have a great branded branded for branded UH firm over there as well that they're doing some really great stuff. Well, Max,

this has been fun. Um, you can can you can check out all the shows at podcast Network, but you can also find them all on the I Heart Radio app, including the new one Cults, So go check that out. Uh, Max, thank you so much for coming on. And anyone who works with Max, watch what you're eating might be sliding something in there today. That's great. Thank you Matt for having so a little behind the scenes there with Max Cutler.

You know, I just thought of the see I should have asked him what was the scary story that made him scared when he was you know, sit get scared in his office. But we'll hear it probably in their new podcast Haunted Places. Oh my gosh, look at that you're learning. Look at her look at the radio plug going all right, Z is in the studio. That means we are going to find out about three podcasts that you can listen to right now that are in the

true crime genres that we're looking at this week. Alright, so hit me up. What do you got this week? First one is Sword and Scale. My roommate actually told me about this one, and it's really cool. It's very like. They cover the dark underworld of crime, murders, abductions, bizarre crimes and stuff like that. I like it because they have interviews with the victims and even the perpetrators. It's like nine one one calls really interesting. Oh, let's listen.

That is why when a mother's love is not present, the results can be disastrous. Take for example, a man by the name of Ed. Her mother was sick, angry, hungry, and very sad woman. I hated her, but I wanted to love my mother. That sounds very well produced. Yeah, I like well produced stuff. Thank you. I don't know about that one at all. Um, gosh, Okay, that's added to the list the five list of podcasts I must

listen to. All right, what else you got? The next one is true Crime slash comedy, it's my Favorite murder. It's two girls named Karen and Georgia and their two friends and they talk about their favorite murderer from John Bennett. It's so funny, but they do it really respectfully and it's really well researched. They know what they're talking about. And UM, I really like it because they always end their show would stay sexy and don't get murdered. Super funny.

This is a podcast that's getting a lot of buzz that again, due to my schedule, haven't had time to listen to. So let's check out a little bit right now. We do not condone math on this part, not no way. We don't condone murder either, even for our own entertainment. Were against it. Do you want to discuss it though? We do. Um, but if you guys murder someone and like you blame it on my favorite murder, we will not talk about it. Let's just agree that right now. Yeah,

you won't get famous on that. No, we will not talk about it. That's good. We should have said that at the beginning. You know what I think about that podcast is that if I asked them the question if you were serial killer, who would you be, they would have an answer right away. They probably have a list of them. How about you let me ask you that question, if you were a serial killer, what kind of serial killer would you be? I I mean, I want to

say poison. Isn't that like? Isn't that like? Ladies answer, Well, that was max answer. But I think that's a yeah. I mean, I think people were scared to let me to kind of embrace that. Okay, you know, in a world where there are no you know, no repercussions and you know, and I know you don't really want to be one. No, I mean, no, no know. But I think I like the Dexter method. He's super methodical. He drains the blood and he's very scientific about it. I'd

like to think that I would be super clean. And I think that's see, that's a real answer. I like that. Al Right, next one, let's yeah, let's talk about the next one. I think you're gonna be familiar with this. Um it's called Criminal. I love this podcast. I love Phoebe. I love I can listen to Phoebe for a long

long periods of time. In fact, I recommended this podcast to a student who was trying to do a true crime podcast, and he came back and he had over the weekend and listened to I think forty episodes and they have a lot. Yeah. Yeah. He just kind of binged them all weekend because he can binge this podcast. And I like it because it's not crimes that you really hear about, right, Like, they're very unpopular ones, but they are so well researched and journalistic because Phoebe is

an award winning journalist. She is, and um, so I really really liked them. Let's listen to some. And then George Lee Lennox was found dead. They found his body slumped over in his gold Cadillac. The car was full of blood. He'd been shotting the head two times. A man came forward and confessed that he had been paid fifteen thousand dollars to kill George Lee Lennox along with

two accomplices. The shooters identified themselves as members of the so called Dixie Mafia, and it was widely speculated that the reason the Dixie Mafia wanted George Lee Lennox dead was because George Lee Lennox had a problem with Tennessee walking horse tradition. Can I tell you a little secret? She is actually coming on this show, and I'm so excited. What Yes, Total Fake radio's the producer. She already booked her anyway, a little little behind the scenes every Yeah,

So Phoebe's gonna come on. I'm always very I'm not comfortable enough with my interviewing skills to interview a real journalist and not feel like they're judging me. I think we'll do well. I hope. So I'm nervous she's Uh. I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan Phoebe. So Z that was fun, good suggestions. Thank you. I'm learning you're getting getting good at this. Uh and uh yeah. Besides Phoebe, We've got lots of other guests coming up in the next few weeks that I can't tell you

about yet because we're still nailing down folks. But if you like podcasts and you like this show, it's only going to get better. I promise We've got lots coming up on there. Well, that's gonna do it. Episode three is in the can Access podcast is produced by the one and only zy Zionya Elvis. Zionya d Elvis is in the Building where I did I Got It? Artwork by Dalton Runberg Music composed by Casey Franco. Special thanks to Chris Peterson, Don Parker and Katie Wilcox and I

Heart Radio. Follow us on Facebook, we are Access Podcast. On Twitter, we are access podcast one because there's an access podcast who hasn't tweeted in four years and still has that handled. We'd like it Twitter and you can follow me at Maddie Stout, m A T t y s t a U, d As and Dog Taz and Tom and download the I heart Radio app, Go to podcast, listen, share and tell your friends about it. Bye bye