(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, welcome to the Abundant Practice Podcast. I'm Allison from Abundance Practice Building. I have a nearly diagnosable obsession with helping therapists build sustainable, joy-filled private practices, just like I've done for tens of thousands of therapists across the world. I'm excited to help you too. If you want to fill your practice with ideal clients, we have loads of free resources and paid support.
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I've seen so many of your videos, so I feel like I know you a little bit already, but I'm always so excited to put a name and a face together in real time. Yay! I'm excited to talk to you. What would be most helpful today? I made a Google Doc that outlined some things, but I can also just tell you a little bit about where I'm at. I think most helpful would be figuring out how to word my niche. I think I know who my niche is. My brain just can't. It can't word.
It can't quite figure out how to word it so I can talk certainly about it when I network. That would be my second, just ideas about networking. Then, if we have time, some marketing strategy. I'm working with Jen Fredette, who has helped me a ton. Oh, my gosh. She also speaks so highly of you, by the way. She was like, go talk to Allison. Basically, what I've also figured out is I really need to, well, need to slash also want to. It's kind of both.
I need to rebrand because my old brand is that person, that human is still amazing, and that's not how I want to walk anymore. Got it. Yeah. Well, let's start with getting the words around your ideal client because that's going to unlock everything else. Let's start there. Tell me, and this can be messy and disparate. All of that is fine, but just throw information at me about who you really want to work with.
Yes. The statements I have right now are working with strategy-savvy, emotionally avoidant businessmen. Not that they have to be businessmen. That's just where I see it a lot. I'll read you some copy that I wrote for Jen this week about this. It says, you're pretty confident you're a good guy, but all your exes would say you're a narcissist. Spoiler, narcissists never worry about fucking up the way you do. Let's be clear. You're not a narcissist. You're just confused as fuck.
I know you've got a heart under all your bullshit. I think you do, too. That's kind of what I specialize in. It brings you clarity without destroying you. I am so tired of working with people -pleasing women. They just cannot handle my directness. I'm really fucking direct. I'm like, no, this is not my niche anymore because I've grown to be less direct. When you want to show up as yourself, you want to be able to use all the tools that you have. Being direct is one of them.
It's not easy for all of us. I think a lot of us who are not as good at being direct often like the people-pleasing women. You want to call people on their shit. I get that. You mentioned businessmen. Are these business owners? Are these C-suite execs? Are these blue-collar, put-your-head-down -and-do-your-work-and-don't- complain kind of guys? Who are we talking about? I'm basing it loosely on some folks I've worked with.
They're not always business owners, but they're in a very extroverted business that makes them a lot of money. I could totally see C-suite guys. I like to attach celebrities sometimes to my ICA. My ICA ideal client would kind of remind me a little bit of John Mulaney or a version of him. You would think, he is very well put together, but if you take even a small peek into his relational life, are you wanting the substance abuse that goes with John Mulaney or no? Not that hardcore.
I do love working with addiction, and I think I'm really good at it, but as a solo practitioner, there's only so much I can do. Because a lot of my clients do use alcohol and pot on a regular basis. Totally fine with that, but when it starts going to, like, oh my gosh, you need inpatients or something like that, I'm not sure I would want to work with someone who has just come out from inpatient care, for example.
Yes, and I do not want that to be my first advertising point, also because the guys I've worked with, that's not what they're, like, that, they're probably minimizing it a bit, definitely, like, not why they're connecting with me. So I'm thinking, I'm in a mastermind with a bunch of business owners, and there are a lot of guys who are on the other side of this.
So there are guys who went into therapy like that and have come out or are still in and are, like, in touch with their feelings and, like, having really beautiful open conversation. So they've, like, done a lot of the work, but they did not start out there, like, they weren't. Yes, those are the people I want to see. Those are the people that excite me the most. I'm like, oh my gosh, I can see what you're doing. Let me, like, let me help you out. Like, life does not have to be this painful.
Yeah, so I'm thinking your person has a very extroverted role, right? So, like, sales, these kinds of things, probably. Yes. He's probably also ties a lot of his self-worth to his success, his financial success. Yes. I'm trying to imagine the before of all these really wonderful men that I now know. The before version of them that I probably would hear about in my sessions with the women who would have dated them. Okay, here's my question.
What is it that's going on in their life that makes them be, like, I need help? So I've been thinking about that a lot because that's, like, I think also for networking. I'm like, who should these guys see? Because, you know, men are not great at seeking out, like, their own medical care. Like, I mean, the stats are, like, really dismal. Not that that's something I would necessarily share with them out the gate. Like, secret handshake inside. It's like, oh my gosh.
So people I've worked with have come there because their partner's, like, you're a mess. Which is okay. But that external motivation can sometimes get in the way, depending. So I'm like, I've been trying to think. I'm like, what the hell would get a, for all intents and purposes, like, a straight white man to go to therapy? Like, what would be so bad? And I keep landing on, well, like, they can't keep relationships or the relationship they have is really terrible.
So in that case, their partners might be referring to them or, like, referring them to therapy. To me, these are also the guys that they might be in couples counseling, but not necessarily. Like, I'm not sure they'd even be bought in enough to try that. It, yeah, I'm waffling on that a little bit. They might go see psychiatrists, was my thought, too. Like, because that's, like, a more manageable, slightly less stigmatized, I mean, not really, but kind of. Right.
And it also means they don't have to necessarily do their own internal work. Right. And they can say, it's just this biological problem. Right, exactly. So that's, like, kind of what comes up. My brain, I'm sure will have other ideas, but that's what's there right now. Got it. Got it.
But I'm hearing it's most likely kind of a twisted arm situation within a relationship or realizing at some point they do want to settle down and, like, they've either been divorced a couple times or had huge major breakups or there's something romantically that is not working for them or relationally that's not working. Yes, absolutely. Are they pretty charismatic? Yes, like, and it's weird, right?
I was looking back through some of my intakes with, like, guys I've worked with and, like, what they said their strengths was, like, also because I was, like, my brain was just curious. But I was like, no, no, this could actually be helpful, too. And the one I'm thinking of, friendly, open, salesmanship, compromising, which also, if he was here, I would tell him that was not one of his strengths. I'm like, that's getting you in trouble. So, yeah, I would say yes.
But they're also, like, Jen and I had talked some about how we potentially think my ICA might, like, actually think they're kind of a narcissist, like, or might be afraid of that, but they're totally not. Like, the real deal is so much different. Like, they're not as bad off as they think they are. Right. And real narcissists aren't worried about being narcissists. So, I've been on a bender with that word this week because I'm kind of upset about, like, how it gets thrown around so much.
And, like, anyway, that's mine. It's been helping me with my ICA, though. So, good news with that. Yeah. I think the tricky part is if you're talking about people who wonder if they're narcissists, you might end up actually getting some or people who are actually, like, more on the spectrum of narcissism than you want. So, I think we're going to have to create, I think about them like the bumpers on a bowling alley.
Like, we might want to create some bumpers that keep them from going the wrong way. Like, some things that opt these people out. Like, some of the more tender parts that your guy is able to acknowledge that maybe somebody crossing the line of narcissism that you don't want to work with wouldn't be able to acknowledge. Yes. I'm all for bumpers. I don't want to actually work with real narcissists. I mean, one, I'm not sure if anyone really can, but two, like, I especially do not want to.
Yeah. Yeah. And so, I think leaning into what you wrote, some of your exes would maybe call you a narcissist and maybe going a little harder on, like, the worry they have about that. Like, describing, you know, maybe somebody called them that once and they have gone through all of their relationships in their mind to find evidence for or against being a narcissist. Like, some of the mental or emotional work they're doing around it because it's so abhorrent to them.
So, your people are likely very confident in certain spaces. Yes. I would say they're very confident, but they don't have courage. Oh, I love that distinction. And it's a great fit. They understand that. Before you explain that to them, if you I, I think I would have to define what courage and confidence are. And if I did that, like, it might ding something. Yeah. Because they are, oh my God, they're like some of the most confident people I've ever met. But like, it's, they can't trust anyone.
Like, they can't be, like, for a lot of reasons. If I explain the difference between confidence and courage, I think potentially it could land. I think, like, the statement in and of itself, they might just be like, whatever. Yeah. I think you could say, like, you're confident in so many areas and maybe bullet point those out. And yet these things scare the shit out of you. I have bullet points for those things. Those more tender things. Yes. No, that's a great. I love that.
Good compare and contrast. And I have like a list of what scares the shit out of them. So that will work really well. Awesome. Yeah. When I'm thinking of your guy, like, like bullet points work for him. You know what I mean? Like he doesn't want to read a poem about it. Oh my gosh. And I don't want to write a poem about it. So that, right. Okay. So as I'm like, it's all coalescing in my head.
It's hard when they're not really there because they want to be like they're there to pacify a partner or they're there to, so I'm trying to think of like how to spend that. Yeah. Me too. Me too. Because yeah, the folks I have worked with it's also kind of easier to work with people who are single. Not that I can't work with people who are in partnerships, but I know I'm like, oh my gosh, I do not have time to like go through training and credentialing of couples right now, like, or the money.
And so I've been kind of chewing on that too. And the only, like the best I've come up with so far is like, like, again, thinking about who else they might go to who's kind of either in our field or field adjacent and like psychiatrists, maybe like wellness, like massage or stuff like that. But like also me, it's like, I'm not 110%. Well, I guess it depends on like which version of this like particular character, but I'm also like, I'm not sure how seriously they take their health, like overall.
So that's something for me to consider. Cause I'm like, no, that'd be good to know if they take their health and wellness seriously or not. Right. What stresses them out on a weekly basis? If they're with a partner, they're like always thinking about like, oh my gosh, what am I going to fuck up next? I already have fucked up. Like it's interesting to, in my experience, a lot of the guys I've worked with, the partners they pick are actually pretty toxic, but they don't recognize it.
So if they're partnered, that's like kind of all they're stressing out about if they're not partnered. Um, that's a great question. Like, I know, I know this, but my Brit like, cause I have gone over this way too many times. If they're not partnered, then that's it. Family of origin stuff. They wouldn't name it. Like that's not why any of these guys come or they wouldn't say family of origin. That's just therapy speak.
But like typically they have really dysfunctional families that are still currently dysfunctional. So parents are using substances or they're often like usually alcohol or they're divorced. They don't know how to set boundaries. So it's like anxious about going to see mom, knowing she's going to be a shithead, but knowing there's also like nothing you can do about it.
Um, so I would say that, and, or potentially like, I wouldn't say totally existential crisis -y, but something bordering on that of maybe those like fleeting moments where they're like out with their buddies, they're playing golf, drinking, right. Whatever it is they're doing. And they're like, is this it? Is this really it? Like, and that's not counting the 99% of the time where they're like, you know, um, self-indulgence, um, which they're really good at.
I don't know if they would name it that way. And I've got ideas about how they would speak about that, but yeah, it's just like, yes, it's this, there's this, I don't want to say like youthfulness and not like in a bad, like not in a bad way, but it's like, they were never taught how to really step into their roles. They don't really know what their role is. And if you're confused about your role, you can't step into it to begin with.
Right. And I wonder copy wise, if it could be something like, you know, if you're being really honest, you've been pretty self-indulgent in a lot of ways and it still doesn't make you any happier. Yeah. Boy, do my people need to hear that. And as I've been doing the know your niche or niche, who knows what the real meaning of life is anymore. I don't know. That, yeah, my guys definitely need, need to hear that. And, um, it definitely shows up in their spending habits.
Again, that's not like something I don't think they would bring, but I mean, the guys I've worked with, like, I mean, they can afford, like easily afford my private pay fee. Like they love traveling, like golf, golf, right. Like these really social and experiential activities that might get some dopamine going, but like it doesn't last. So that's actually, I'm remembering, I'm like, Oh no, no, I could maybe give some concrete examples of that. Yeah. I'm thinking of it's funny.
Cause you seem so very different from your ideal client. There just seems to be, I don't know, just an intuitive difference in, from my perspective. And so often our niches are ourselves at a different time in life. And so I'm, I keep trying to like pull parts of you into the niche and I'm like, no, no, no, that's not, that's not him.
Um, so I'm thinking about this niche that so many people have with women of like, everything looks great on the outside, but inside, like you mentioned this earlier, like inside you're crumbling. And I think there's this piece of him that can acknowledge he's likable, he's charismatic and underneath all that, he often feels like a piece of shit. Yeah. I think that's very true. And like also in my experience and, um, he, gosh, it was some line I watched in.
Oh, it was the holiday, which that movie. Oh my gosh. I'd never seen it. And it was so, I had problems with it, but I also really loved it. But yeah, the dude love talking about, like, it just seems to be that like, I hurt women by being myself. Um, and now my guys do not cry as much as Jude Law. Jude Law in that movie has somehow like created this, I don't know how they did it. Um, like I kind of want to talk to the writers of this, but I think that's like, there's a version of that in my ICA.
You might not acknowledge it very much. You might not even know that's what it is, but that core, sorry, I've got Jen Fridette speak in my mind because we're working on so much of this, but that core, like, why do I keep hurting people? I'm just being myself. I don't understand. Yeah. So I wonder if it's like, you work with guys who feel like deep down they're good guys, but they keep hurting people and they don't understand why.
Yes. And I guess the other, I'm smiling thinking about the other part too, is like, yes, they actually are doing some damage, but like, no one's willing to be kind to them about that. Not nice. Right. But like, and I would never on, I don't think on my website mentioned anything about the patriarchy or all that stuff. Cause I think my guys tend to be more conservative. Yeah. And also they won't know what that means. And I'm still trying to figure out what that means.
So I'm like, no, no, none of that. Um, but yeah, you got like, especially I'm on a tear with this too. Also I think something because of my internal work, but like the amount that these guys have been hurt by women and marginalized by women. And so they think feminism is like being shut down, like by trying to express their opinions. Now, again, they are doing damage, but no one's being willing to like hang with them in that. It seems.
Yeah. And I think that's the quick and dirty, like niche statement is like men who are good people, but keep hurting others. And then there's an opportunity to like, explain that. Like, you're not talking about antisocial guys. You're not talking about, you know, maybe you say like, instead of good people, they're like likable affable guys who keep hurting people they care about. Yeah. I like that. Cause then it lends some of the goodness.
It like defines some of the goodness in them while also creating some accountability or, um, culpability maybe that bothers them that gets under their skin. Cause they keep either pushing people to dump them or being the dumper. They keep putting other people last in their own, um, drive for success or whatever first, because it's tied to their identity, not cause they're jerks. Right.
Yes. And that is something that, gosh, I mean, I just wish I could like, I would love to talk to people about that all day about like how these guys are not idiots and they're not jerks. They just look like jerks and they look like idiots because they're really confused. Need some help. Yeah. Yeah. It's like not a willful, um, insensitivity. It's like an ignorant insensitivity. Right.
Yes. And I think there is such a difference because I think with ignorant sensitivity, there's still a common heart. Um, and you can't really get that with, like someone who's like, you know, like totally maybe like, like you cannot get that with a narcissist. That's for sure. I'm not sure they have them. Um, that's probably debatable. So then when we think about who they go to, I imagine these might be the guys who are getting massages every week because they are stressed.
They are tense and they're probably chalking it up to like a golfing injury or something like that. And so it's probably sports massage. It's probably something a lot more, I don't know, masculine or something like that, as opposed to like the floaty, airy, like spa massage that I might prefer, you know, that makes so much sense because I'm trying to figure that out.
I'm like, they probably do, but I'm like, I just cannot see them go into like a traditional massage therapist because it's too like woo. I mean, among other things, it's too woo, it's too feminine. Like take your pick. Like it's too, too everything. Yeah. So going towards the things that are traditionally masculine in our culture, they're probably there. I'm imagining like these are the grownup frat guys, right? Yes, more or less. I'm smiling to myself. I'm like, they're not total airheads.
Like, sorry, because I think of frat guys, I'm like, oh my gosh, you guys, I would never be able to work with someone who is in that actual state, like a college student or something like that. I'm like, no, too bad. Like you have not reached a point, one, where you can afford my services, but two, like you're too, like life is not impacting you in a real way, relationally yet, where we can do that work. Right, right. But yeah, no, like sportsman's, ah, that's such a good one.
I would not have thought of that. I'm like, yes, that is there. One of the answers I've been like looking for. And the tough part is, I think about like a sports massage therapist, there's a risk they're taking and saying, I think therapy might be helpful for you, right? Because there is, there's that stigma around therapy for this group. I think of it kind of almost like, if there was an executive coaching lens, I'm like, you can perform better.
If you get this junk out of your way, like there's all this stuff you haven't talked about. And this is, this is what reminds me of all my mastermind guys. It's most of them got into therapy more because they wanted to perform better. And so it might be one of those. I mean, the truth is they will perform better. We all perform better when we're through the hard parts of clearing out our own stuff.
So I think you could kind of insinuate like, look, we all know, everybody knows this, that hard things happen, that parents are always what we want or need them to be that we repeat patterns. Like we all know this and how that's impacting you at work. Maybe you're working harder than you actually need to, to get the same results. Maybe you're trying to think of, I keep coming back to these guys that I love so much.
All the guys that I know that fit this bill are all still trying to impress their dads. Gosh, that makes so much sense. Yes. That's something I would work with them on. Yeah. Also given the generational differences. Anyway, sorry. I'm excited to hear about that. I'm like, oh my gosh, I got you. I have another call I have to hop on, but I hope that that gives you a good, like jumping off point.
And if you're in our Facebook community, then post anything in there and I'll hop in and we can go from here. Perfect. That sounds awesome. Thank you, Allison. Yeah, it was great to meet you. Bye. If you're ready for a much easier practice, TherapyNotes is the way to go. Go to therapynotes.com and use the promo code ABUNDANT for two months free. Make sure your email is actually HIPAA compliant with Powebox.
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