(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, welcome to the Abundant Practice Podcast. I'm Allison from Abundance Practice Building. I have a nearly diagnosable obsession with helping therapists build sustainable, joy-filled private practices, just like I've done for tens of thousands of therapists across the world. I'm excited to help you too. If you want to fill your practice with ideal clients, we have loads of free resources and paid support.
Go to abundancepracticebuilding.com slash links. Alright, onto the show. So I've talked about therapy notes on here for years. I could talk about the features and the benefits in my sleep, but there are a couple of things I want you to know about therapy notes that doesn't typically make it into an ad script. First is that they actually care if you like their platform. They don't only make themselves available on the phone to troubleshoot so you don't pull your hair out when you get stuck.
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With over 100,000 therapists using their platform, they've been able to stay incredibly successful and they don't have to sacrifice your experience to stay there. You can try two months free at therapynotes .com with the coupon code ABUNDANT. Hey Sam! Hi, how are you? I'm good, how are you doing? I am well, thank you. I feel like I'm fangirling right now because I've been following you for so long. I'm like, oh this is such a joy to get to meet with you. Yay, I'm so glad.
So I guess first of all too, I just want to say I'm a North Carolinian myself. I'm sure it probably feels like a mix of feelings of being here and doing this work and also all the things going on and so I just wanted to send you some good vibes your way and I'm following your journey not only personally but also just appreciating how you're holding space for our North Carolina folks and Western North Carolina folks for everything going on but just wanted to hold some space for that.
So I hope you're doing well. Thank you. I'm hanging in every now and then somebody will be like, how are you doing? And I'm like, same as everybody else here. Figured it out, exactly. Yeah, so I'm excited to do this today.
I guess some questions that I would love to maybe get answered and maybe kind of pick your brain about is overarching theme is trying to figure out when to scale, how to know the signs like when you're kind of reaching that point and maybe if there's any blind spots that might be helpful for me to consider as I'm taking this all into account. Yeah. And I'll kind of give like a brief overview of my journey so far with my own practice to kind of like catch up to speed.
So I was working at a group practice virtually based out of Atlanta for a while since like 2018, moved to North Carolina, kind of did all the things, bought a house, had a kid, everything and still work for that group practice and it was great because it helped me kind of get through maternity leave and all the stuff but I knew my goal was to get into my own solo practice and kind of start my own business. And so January of this year, I like pulled the ripcord on it and got a website made.
I love my website. I'm very proud of it and started doing the Abundance Party and just really trying to like hone in and learn a lot of things. I have more officially kind of launched in March and since then, this month and last month will be my first two like five -figure months. Awesome. Which is like so exciting. I've been like so proud of that. It's been really cool.
And so as I'm kind of like thinking about this next year as well as our goals of like expanding our family in the next year, I'm trying to think about how to do this sustainably and what that really looks like because I've toyed around with some ideas of would I want to hire an associate or two? Would I want to expand services to offering like groups potentially?
Or would I kind of want to veer a little bit more into some sort of coaching type of thing which I know would mean opening up another LLC and such. But I'm trying to consider what makes most sense for me. My niches are anxiety, people pleasing, and perfectionism kind of wrapped up in there with women especially. And then religious trauma which I initially put as my niche for like LGBTQ folks but it's really just expanded amongst all adults.
Everything from like fundamental kind of groups to high control groups and cult recovery. So my niches are very different but I love working with them both. And so sometimes I kind of consider the challenges around that. It's not like it's just eating disorders and I can kind of pick and choose certain things. Sometimes I feel like I'm kind of torn between marketing wise.
Should I be marketing for potential associates that love working with more anxiety stuff, more religious trauma stuff, like because it's all been about me and what I like working with. So just kind of wondering if there's any like blind spots and kind of picking your brain about what might be some things to consider or what could be helpful for me to focus on. And I know that kind of sounds great out here but hopefully that kind of makes sense. Yeah, makes total sense.
So I think when I think about what's sustainable, I think about what's simplest. Okay. So the current situation you have right now, making five figures a month, how is it feeling? Is it feeling simple? Is it feeling good? Are you feeling burned out?
It's feeling pretty good but I'm starting to notice that there are a couple things I need to tighten up a little bit around boundaries for myself because I get really excited when I see an inquiry come in and I'm like, oh my gosh, there's like an ideal client that I'd love to work with. And then I'm like, should I make a wait list? Is it time? Should I start considering referring out?
I'm on that edge of things but generally speaking, I feel like things are definitely pushing to full for me caseload wise and the work that I do feels, I don't want to say autopilot, but it feels very right in my lane of like both of those specialties. So I really love the work I do and I feel like energy wise, it feels pretty good.
It's more so me from, I think, the personal standpoint of just making sure that I've got pockets for admin, pockets for doing notes, pockets for networking and stuff like that so it doesn't feel like I'm just meeting with clients all week and not addressing the CEO type stuff. Got it. Okay. So it's not the clinical work. It's the business ownership work.
Yeah. And I think even trying to decide too from like an income perspective, there is a part of me that feels like I would love the one-to-one, but I'd love to be able to find ways where I can reach more people that doesn't require me to just do one-to-one, which is why part of me is thought like, oh, maybe hiring an associate that does religious trauma work or is interested in that would be great. But then there's the flip side of it, of managing an employee, all the things that come with that.
Yeah. My practice is fully virtual too, by the way. So it's not like I have a lot of overhead necessarily. And I would be hiring somebody that would be open to virtual only. So that's kind of like, I'm looking at this more from slowly being able to grow, but in a way that feels like I'm not moving faster than I can keep up with. Again, perfectionism here. I'm working on it. Right, right. We are our clients. We all are. So, okay.
I think about the sustainable thing and I think about the financial benefits of having somebody. Now, one thing to know is that, and this is from the person I've learned all group practice things from and modeled my group practice after what I've learned from her, is that when you have two associates working for you, you're typically making less, you're personally bringing home less than you are when you were solo.
So there are these S-shaped curves in all business that you've already experienced in your own business, and now you're up on the upswing of it. But when you make model changes like this, you go back into an S-shaped curve where you make a little bit more and then you make a lot less, and then you can go back up. You're going to have to hire more people, typically a good number of people, to be able to replace your current income.
You're going to have to scale back because you simultaneously have to scale back your own clinical work because you are now a group practice owner who has to spend most of your time marketing, managing staff, those kinds of things. From a sustainability standpoint, in the way that I think of sustainable, which is increasingly more just simple, it is not the way to simplicity. It is the way to a lot of complexity that can absolutely pay off in the end, but you have to really enjoy managing peers.
That's the thing that most therapists complain about most in group practices. Somebody just said it to me today, employees feel like children, they're always asking me for something. There's this sense of, you have a master's or a doctorate degree, figure it out. Yeah, we got that. Yeah, yeah, which especially when it's your policies or your procedures or whatever, it's totally fair for people to ask and to want clarification.
But when you're in that employee boss relationship, you have to like managing people. Right, right. Also on top of that, you have to be a good picker. You have to choose really well. Because one, even just okay hire can make your life so much more stressful. Yeah. So that's how I view group practice. Now, I own a group practice that is very small intentionally. I have one person working for me because she's basically perfect for me. So it's a very symbiotic relationship.
I always frame it as we work together, not she works for me. She doesn't want to manage any of the business stuff. I don't mind managing the business stuff. I trust her so much clinically. It's easy. And it's been easy for years and years and years. So we will check in every now and then she's like, are you sure you still want to do this? I'm like, yeah, are you sure you still want to do this? And the answer keeps being yes. So I love her.
I, you know, I am reticent to hire anybody else because it means it's going to take a lot more of my time because I'm going to need to amp up my marketing. I'm going to need to do more like, like onboarding. I find to be the most tedious thing in the whole world. And in a group practice, I can't outsource it like I can with abundance. I've realized I'm coming from like strong bias. Right. So I'm also trying to check that because I also am friends with a lot of group practice owners who love it.
The profit margins are really small. So that's something to keep in mind. I think when you're working in a group practice, it feels like, Oh my God, they're taking so much money from me. But the running of the business often takes so much of the owner's time and the income or the revenue of the business that people just don't see.
Yeah. And I think I've got, I've had some like personal experience with that where like the group practice I used to work at, she was super hands-off, which initially felt really nice. But then I felt like I was very, I didn't have a lot of tools or resources to learn how to market myself. And it was primarily insurance-based practice. So that kind of had its own referral sources. So I kind of felt like I was like, I don't know what the heck I'm doing, but now I feel better that I'm like, great.
I know what I'm doing. And then I'm like, does that mean, and I feel like I have a lot of inherent and learned leadership skills that I've picked up for over the years. So I think I could definitely like lead folks, but I guess, yeah, that's the question too, is I know somebody personally, a colleague of mine who I kind of was their admin assistant for a while while she was building her group practice. And I see the behind the scenes of, I think she's got like four or five folks.
There are some great pros, and then there's some challenges too. And that sometimes a part of it is like trying to discern for myself, is that something that I want really? Is that going to like alleviate things for me, or is that just going to make it more complicated? So if it's not group practice, the only other two ideas I have is some sort of like coaching something because I love teaching.
I love sharing knowledge and I love empowering people and stuff like that, or running some sort of group type setting, which because of the religious trauma specialty, I feel like there's, there's folks that like work and have clients that they work with that have experienced that, but they don't like specialize in that. And even when it comes to trainings, there's not a lot of trainings around like how to approach religious trauma work and stuff.
So I know it's like super specific niche, which I love. And so a part of me has wondered, well, does that mean that it would be helpful for me to go almost like a supervisory route slash consultation group kind of thing? Or does it mean going to providing like a religious trauma skills or process group type of stuff?
But again, I'm trying to think from both of those angles, what might make most sense from like a profitability standpoint, as well as an energy pouring out standpoint that doesn't feel like, Oh, you know what I mean? Yeah. I think that's the part too, I'm trying to think about is like, I don't want to spend all my time building a curriculum or like a something, and then it just be like this whole bust.
And then I feel like, well, now I just spent eight weeks feeling completely drained and exhausted. And I haven't had energy for my current clients because I just spent it all there. I don't have time in my personal life and stuff like that. So I'm curious of your thoughts on that too. Yeah. So I think doing a process group, for instance, you're not having to create curriculum.
I don't think that's going to be difficult for you to fill given that you're already have an overflow of clients calling you or being kind of at the crux of that happening. It's something that you could offer to your colleagues who don't specialize in religious trauma, but have clients who have some religious trauma that their clients can come join your group. So I don't think you would have a hard time filling that. And I don't know, like, how do you feel about leading process groups?
Does that feel draining to you or? I get nervous about it because, I guess, because I want to be able to have that space feel like something that's very protected and safe, but I also don't want to like, I don't know how to word this. I think it takes a lot more energy for me to kind of ramp myself up to do group or this is why I don't do couples work. Cause I feel like it takes a lot of personal energy for me to like, show up. I currently have a family client that I work with.
It's kind of like a case basis right now that I love it, but it's also feels like there's a lot of pressure, I think in that way. So maybe in that regard, I almost feel like it would be more helpful to make it more of like, again, I really like teaching. So maybe it's something in the like teaching psycho Eddie kind of thing. Yeah. That feels like I love being able to share.
And if people have questions, great, I can give them resources rather than in some ways feeling like I have six sets of eyes on me and then I'm trying to use my shine off my group counseling skills that I haven't done in a hot minute kind of thing. I got it. Yeah. Okay. So then if it's a psycho ed group, then you are building some curriculum into it, right? So it sounds like that is less tiring for you that the prospect of, of running a process group, the curriculum is easier. I think so.
I think it'd once I have the curriculum together, then it's done if I wanted to run it again or something. So that doesn't feel too stressful for me because it's kind of plug and go in a way. Do you feel like it would make more sense to kind of focus it on clients that have experienced that or looking into some sort of consultation groupie type of thing for other clinicians?
I feel like that, and as I'm saying it out loud, it would probably be harder to pull in because some clinicians might be like, no, I'm fine. I'm okay. Or I've got this, or I can do a training online or something, but I don't know what, again, from like a referral source sustainability standpoint, how I can make this something that is energizing and decently profitable to apply. You know? Yeah. So, okay. I'm not a light. I'm not a supervisor either, like with the state. So that's the other part.
I don't know. I know you're a social worker, but I'm like, with the counseling stuff or the clinical, they change the letters too much these days, especially like the North Carolina one. I still don't know. It has been years, but that changed. I'm like, there are too many letters. There's too many letters. So I know I'd probably have to look into like rules and stuff like that, but isn't there a difference between like supervision and consultation?
Like you don't have to be a supervisor to do consultation groups, right? Right. Right. Okay. Yes. Correct. Good to know. Yeah. You wouldn't be able to sign off on anybody's licensure stuff. And I don't want to deal with that. Yeah. I don't want to deal with that. Yeah. So let me tell you where my brain went and you tell me if this sounds interesting to you, it might be a part of it might be bigger than you want to go.
But if you were to create curriculum and do these psycho-ed groups with clients, and then you could train other clinicians on how to do the same psycho-ed group, it kind of like franchise it almost like Brene Brown does with her. Yeah. The dare to lead or the daring way or yeah, that's a daring way. Yeah. You could kind of franchise it almost so that people would pay to be trained in how to help with religious trauma.
And also as a part of their practice, lead these groups you've created and vetted curriculum around. Yeah. That sounds interesting. Because I think that could tap into, I mean, in some ways I think it could be a good pilot program-ish type of a thing to see what works, what doesn't work, what I like, what I don't like, what clients like, what they don't like. And then be able to make it like a training slash a course type of a thing. So that kind of leans more into the coaching stuff possibly.
But it's all clinical so it can still, you don't have to start a whole new business. Right. Right. That makes sense. Okay. And I mean, I would run the group as much as possible for at least a year to like really get the kinks out and really feel like, because group dynamics can shift things so differently. And so trying the curriculum with different groups and seeing what gets tweaked along the way. And then like in the meantime, you could be doing consultation with professionals.
Right. But I wouldn't like franchise the group until you feel like, okay, I've got it. You know? Yeah. Okay. Do you feel like there's any other things that would be maybe helpful for me to consider, i.e. being full for a period of time where, you know, this is probably time to like explore expanding because I know I'm potentially judging this off of a time of year where clients are generally coming to therapy more frequently.
It's October that I guess that's the other part too, is trying to consider are the referral sources going to be filled enough to be able to offer something like this that doesn't feel like it's pulling away from any like one-to-one work, if that makes sense. Because the other thing I've been considering too, which I'll probably be doing in the new year.
And I feel a little like nervous about it is increasing my rates by $20 an hour, which some people have told me I should double that because right now I'm 155. So I'm considering going to 175. So I know there might be some clients that might scale back or could give me a little bit more cushion room with that. But again, I'm kind of like feeling this question mark of when are the times to pull the ripcord on things?
How long is a good amount of time before it feels like this is probably a good choice to do? Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. What we see so much, like we've got our limitless practice program, which is all full therapists. They're usually raising their rates or getting off insurance, right?
And what we see with them and what I've seen in the 10 years of helping therapists with this is that everybody overestimates how many people are going to leave or how many people are going to have to go to every other week or once a month or something like that as a result of the fee increase. When you're already private pay, it's nominal, the amount of people that leave, especially with that kind of a price hike. I would be surprised if anybody left.
So I wouldn't bank on a bunch of time is what I'm saying. Okay. Yeah. And I would look at, I mean, you don't have years of data or anything like that to say like, okay, well, I know that February things really ramp up, right? December they're always slow because my niche is always slow in December, but I'm pretty okay during the summer. Yeah. So everybody's got kind of a different cadence and you haven't been doing it long enough to know what your cadence is yet.
So I would make sure that you're like either your EHR or you in a spreadsheet are keeping data of like, when did the call slow down or when did the referral slow down? What months do I just see fewer people because it's that month or, you know, that thing is happening. Yeah. So I would, I would be looking at that over the past year. I mean, you've got full fairly quickly, which is awesome.
Yeah. Cause yeah, September you were already making five figures and you really got ramped up in what March. So I don't have concerns about your marketing. It's clearly working. Okay. Okay. I would look at expanding based on your energy. And I always want, when people are talking about any sort of scaling to just come back to why, like, why are you scaling? Is there a way that you could help more people without it taking your time without it needing to be monetized?
So that could be a like monthly donation to your local sexual assault center that helps pay a clinician's salary that allows them to see clients. Yeah. I say that because I have talked to so many people, some people who do what I do, some people with group practices, some people who do like psycho ed courses and things like that. I've had so many of these conversations over the past year where everybody's like, I just wish it was more simple.
And I wish I had just increased my fees exponentially and private practice and kept it simple. If you're on fire about something and you're really excited to get at some, like you would not have been able to break through to me when I was starting abundance that you're going to overcomplicate your life a lot. This is going to be more than you want to take on at some point. You would not have been able to break through to me because I was so excited. And still I am very happy. I did it.
I'm very happy. I'm still doing it. But for the people that I know who were like, oh, this could be a good way to make some more income. They're the ones who were like, what the F did I do? So I think to post hurricane, I'm also coming from this perspective of what's the least amount of work you can do so that you can be a part of your community and your life.
Yeah. And I think the part, at least the season that I'm finding myself getting into is like after having my first kid, my maternity leave was because I was an insurance-based practice while I was on leave. I had some claims that were paying out that were okay. And I didn't plan for it. And when my leave ended, it was like three months of like nothing. And I felt I was SOL and I'm like, oh my God.
And so there has been a part of me that really kicked my butt into gear to be like, I need to make this happen. And I believe that I can, and I want to make this something that I'm excited about doing. And I've been excited about it since I started it because I'm like, this is what I meant to do. This is what I love. I love serving clients in this way. And now that my kid is like a toddler and running all around, and we're considering expanding our family.
It's like, I would love to be able to be at a place where I can still be able to do the work that I do and that I love, but that it doesn't drain me to your point so much where I'm not able to be present for picking up my kid from school or being home from maternity leave and not stressing out. Like I've already kind of thought ahead this time. I'm like, okay, whenever pregnancy number two happens, I'm going to start squirreling away money every month.
So that when that comes, I'm not like, oh my God. So I feel like I've learned a lot and I want to be able to like, not catch myself in a situation where I feel like I'm what's the phrase like up a Creek without a paddle kind of a thing where it does feel simple and it feels good. And it feels like I can give back to my community, but I can just be more present with my kids when they're young.
You know, I think that those are some things for me that I personally don't want to be a stay at home mom. I like the balance of working and being able to make my own schedule, but I want to be able to be around for these years when they're young. And if there is a scaling back in like any time that I'm addressed and that I'm not working, I want to still be able to make a consistent income slash have planned for that. So it's not like, oh God, what am I going to do? Kind of thing, you know?
So I think if that answers your question, like that's where I see myself that I'd like to be big picture for myself, you know, so what I'd recommend because being a parent is no joke, right? Like there's just so much extra work involved and having a toddler and a baby is a cluster. I've done it. It's a lot worth it. Wonderful. All of it.
And what I would recommend is when you raise your rate, sock away all that extra money, live on the same rate you're living on now, because it sounds like y'all are pretty sure you want to expand your therapy, your therapy, your family, if you're able to. So I would sock all that money away. And once you're pregnant, start talking more away. And that way you've got a nice juicy cushion, less stress. Sounds like raising your rate 20 bucks. You could absolutely double that.
Honestly, somebody who's paying one 50 can pay one 90 most of the time. So really consider, and somebody who could be one 75 would be one 90 for sure. So I would consider it or just making it an even 200. Cause isn't some sort of psychology behind making it one 90 or something versus 200 where people like, Oh, it's not quite 200. I can do that. There is for smaller purchases. Okay. Even my higher ticket things, I still end them in a nine or a seven.
It's dumb, but I think with therapy, it can feel more gimmicky potentially than just my fee is 200. Hmm. So, I mean, I don't think either one is right or wrong, to be honest with you. Sure. Yeah. But I would consider raising your rate more. And if you do just do the 20 right now to have another fee increase within or around a year later so that you're able to save more, you're able to work less. That is the simplest path to making more money versus scaling.
Scaling always sounds like it's going to be easy because it sounds like it's less work. It sounds like passive income and none of that is true. Right. It's just different work. I'm hearing you talk about how you love your clinical work and how it's what you're meant to do. Yeah. That's what you're meant to do. You're not meant to raise employees, you know? Yeah. So I think through all those pros and cons and just be really honest with yourself.
Cause if they, if, if ultimately what you want is more time and more money, you can do that in a solo practice by raising your rates and marketing well enough that that's not going to be an issue for you. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.