Navigating Early Challenges in Equine Veterinary Practice

Hi, I'm Dr. Mike Pownall, and welcome to the American Association of Equine Practitioners, Practice Life, a podcast where members can have conversations about life as an equine veterinarian.

Our goal of this podcast is to offer a series of discussions with various equine vets from different types of practices, demographics, or stages in career. There are numerous ways for members to discuss medical challenges, but when it comes to life as a veterinarian, we are often alone. We hope that AAEP members will find value in hearing from their colleagues about the various challenges and opportunities they face in practice.

In our first episode, we are going to discuss the challenges that new practitioners face when entering the profession. We are joined by three grads, Drs. Amy Bennett, Melinda Crowley, and Jenna Donaldson. I was very grateful for their honesty and candor. It made for a very engaging conversation that taught me a few things as a practice owner. I hope you enjoy the podcast. Hi and welcome. We have Dr. Amy Bennett, Dr. Melinda Crowley and Dr. Jenna Donaldson. Welcome all three of you. Thank you.

So Amy, let's start off. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and we'll go around the circle before we start our discussion. Sure. I'm a graduate of the Ontario Veterinary College. I graduated in 2012. After that, I went on and did an internship at a clinic in California and I'm currently working as an equine veterinarian at a mixed animal practice in Cambridge, Ontario. Great. And Melinda, what about you? I'm a 2013 graduate of the Ontario Veterinary College.

After veterinary school, I went and did an equine-only internship in Virginia, and now I'm back in Ontario, and I'm working strictly equine at a practice here. Okay. And finally, Jenna. I also graduated from OVC in 2013. I did an internship at an equine practice out in Alberta. Then I did a surgery internship at a referral center here in Ontario, and I now work at an equine practice in the same area in Ontario.

Great. So the discussion today, what we want to talk about is just the challenges and potential solutions for what affects recent graduates in equine practices.

So why don't we just start right off, and what are some of the challenges that any of you have observed or encountered since beginning your career in equine practice? Let's start with you, Amy. Sure. My biggest thing as a new grad coming out of an internship is I had the confidence and skill set ready and required for new grad. However, I found that a lot of clients lacked confidence in me because I looked young and I was the new hire.

My position was a bit different in that I didn't have a lot of mentorship coming from a mixed animal practice and being the only equine vet on. So I think that had a lot to do with it as well. But that was my biggest struggle coming out. What about you, Melinda? Melinda? I struggled a little bit with finding a job post-internship. I found it was a competitive job market, and it took me a little bit of searching before I found a job in the area in which I wanted to work.

Two questions I have for you. Did you encounter any of the challenges Amy did in terms of, you know, you don't look well enough to be a vet. Did any of that happen to you? Oh, all the time. I've been asked if I'm old enough to drive, you know, if I'm even old enough to be a vet. It helps that I was introduced to a large number of our clients before I was employed by the practice, so they got to know me a little bit, and so they weren't quite as surprised when I showed up alone on their farms.

I think that made a big difference. Right. Sure. And what made the difference for you to get a position? You said you were searching for a while trying to get a job. What turned it around for you? I got lucky. I heard through word of mouth that my current boss was hiring, and I cold called him, and here I am. Way to go. Cold call him. Excellent. And what about you, Jenna? What are some of the challenges that you have observed or encountered?

Initially, I was wondering, I was considering specializing, doing a residency after my internship, which is why I ended up doing the surgery internship. I ended up deciding that that wasn't for me, and I'm really happy in my current job. I'm in a bigger group than either Amy or Melinda, and I have fantastic mentorship. I've been very, very fortunate that way. But being in a bigger group, then you're already, there's more of an established clientele with all the other veterinarians.

So kind of like finding your place within that group was maybe more of a challenge for me than finding mentorship in my situation.

So in your mind, what are some of the aspects of equine practice that are different from what you hear from classmates that are in small animal or food animal practice? And how do they affect you as a recent graduate? And I guess, Amy, just I'll pick on you again to start just because you're in a mixed practice. So you're seeing a bit of small animal and food animals. So what are some of the differences? Well, I think the big one is that equine medicine really isn't a nine to five job.

You know, the practice I'm at does not do small animal emergencies, but we do see equine and bovine emergencies. So our small animal vets, you know, not to pick on them or anything, because I know they work very hard, but they kind of know when their day's ending.

Whereas you know on the equine and bovine side we really don't and equine clients in particular as we all know are quite demanding and they like to have constant access to their veterinarian which definitely causes a big struggle of work-life balance and so they're they're texting you out of hours or trying to get a hold of you out of hours yes absolutely all the time what about you melinda i find in equine practice we have very knowledgeable clients with very high expectations No,

our job isn't just to keep the horses alive. It's to keep them athletic and competitive and doing the job that the owner has them to do. So that's a little bit more difficult in my mind. You know, we're sports medicine doctors as well as veterinarians. In addition, you know, we're alone on the farm and we're doing everything in front of the client. And when you have knowledgeable clients watching your every move, it's a little bit different.

And I guess in a position like yours, they may be comparing you to your boss who's been in practice for several years and sort of like, well, Dr. So-and-so doesn't do it that way. Exactly. And if you explain what and why you're doing things the way you do, usually they come around, but definitely they're scrutinizing.

Yeah. And what about you, Jenna? My thoughts on this one are that the biggest difference is, and potentially this is more similar to food animal medicine than to small animal, but the industry that we're involved in, the clients really expect that you understand what they're doing and understand their industry really well before you show up to treat their horse.

And so above and beyond sort of what's required of the medicine, you really have to understand the sport that they're involved in and the specific requirements and things that are needed for that. And I think that that additional knowledge and skill set kind of puts an extra pressure similar to what the others mentioned as well. So it's like you've got to be a real fan of equine sports or the discipline.

So, I mean, I think all three of you grew up around horses. What do you say to this, you know, and we've all had classmates that all of a sudden fell in love with horses and vet school, but they don't have that background. And is that something that you can get over? Can you gain that background so you can talk to clients as a fellow horse person? What do you think, Melinda? I think you can, but I think you really have to put your time in.

You have to be dedicated and get out there and experience different disciplines and do as much as you can to get involved. So it's almost like the medicine part is the easier part of it. I mean, it's client management and the sport management that's as essential as anything.

Definitely. So, Amy, a question, sort of putting you on the spot, but I just sort of wrote down a note when you see the small animal vets leave, you know, at the end of the day, I mean, and you know, you've got maybe a couple more appointments and you might be on call. I mean, how does that make you feel?

I'd be lying if I wasn't, you know, a bit envious sometimes, but it, as much as we don't always like to say that it is a way of our life, but because I've been immersed with the horses my whole life and, you know, have been always working long hours with horses, I expected that going into it. So I just, I always have to remember that my love for the horses and the horse didn't ask to have a laceration at 10 PM or something like that. So that's kind of what keeps me going.

So going back to our earlier days, as you're all students, what expectations did you have for your career in equine practice back then? I mean, and has your experience changed from the expectations? So let's start with experience. And what were your expectations, Jenna? Definitely similar to what Amy was saying, I was expecting to work long hours. I don't know that I expected quite the amount of pressure, particularly from the owners.

I think it's hard to imagine that until you're put in the situation yourself. Until I really started to do emergencies by myself in my first internship when I really had to make the decisions. You have to make the calls and you're alone. And that's a big step from being a student in the student OVC school environment where there's always somebody to back you up. And there's always somebody right there with you and who's kind of above you making the call.

I think you can't really put yourself into that situation until you're there.

You can't really imagine what it's going to be like to actually have to make the decisions yourself until you have to. The biggest eye opener for me when I started. What about you, Melinda? I wasn't expecting to struggle quite as much with work-life balance as I am.

I'm on call two weeknights and then every other weekend and that's a large commitment to my job you know when I was in school I really didn't consider that I knew it was on call long hours but I think until you're really working the job and that's your life you don't realize how much it takes over. What about yourself Amy?

For me it would be the stuff I take home at the end of the day mentally, like while I'm working all day, if I have to euthanize a horse or if I have cases that aren't going the way I'd like, at the time I'm thinking in a very clinical sense and I can't, I'd leave as much emotion out of it as I can. But when I go home, that does add up and I wasn't expecting to take all of that home with me at the end of the day. And so how, how do you deal with that?

Oh, I try and talk it out with supportive people in my life. And because, you know, I grew up with horses as I go and ride my horse. What are your perceptions or concerns that you think practice owners, business owners, veterinary business owners have with regards to hiring new graduates?

And how do you address these concerns to improve the experience of the new grads? We'll start with you, Amy. I think the main perception is that if a new grad comes on board, they can't just send them out and have them work. So it's going to be a lot of handholding.

And of course, that not only a financial drain initially, it is a big time drain, especially when new grads are coming out, usually typically during busy season, when you really need a vet ready to go out there and help with the caseload. So I think that's the main thing that practice owners see.

Yeah the timing of internships to new jobs is horrible you know you wish you had the you know you wish you had the new grads with you in in the winter so you can get them up to speed right, what about you what do you think about that melinda i definitely agree that there's a perception that new graduates aren't equipped to manage solo and i think that's entirely accurate i mean i was around horses most of my life i was a good student but coming straight out of that school,

I was not ready to have a quick truck and just go on calls. I think my internship was an immense help towards that. And did you find something similar, Jenna, or did you have different, what do you see? Do you see different perceptions of horse, of practice owners? Once again, the practice that I worked for has hired lots of new grads. And so I think there's maybe a bit more of an understanding compared to other situations of what a new grad needs in terms of mentorship and in terms of support.

So I didn't struggle with that so much myself, but I certainly have seen that with classmates and other friends of mine, for sure. I think that there can also be, particularly in smaller practices with only two or so other. It can be tough to figure out how much the new grad is on call, how much the new grad is working, and as well how much responsibility to give the new grad as far as what clients to quote-unquote hand over to them or trust them with or things like that.

I think that there's a lot of difficulties and challenges that are faced both on either side when a new graduate is hired. Yeah, for sure. And it's sort of like from a practice owner's point of view, it's inevitably with every young associate, you're always going to get the phone call from a longstanding client saying, I didn't like this new person that showed up. They don't do it as well as, and they named the more experienced vets and you sort of have to walk them off the ledge.

But I, I found as a, as a practice owner, you've got to absolutely support the associate and those, and those things and you use it as a learning opportunity. And most cases, I would say 90% of the time the owners come around and they realize that these are rookie mistakes, but the care of the animal was still excellent, but maybe the associate was nervous or wasn't as confident as they'd like it to be. So talking about practice owners a bit more, how do you think practice owners

could better support their new associates, Amy? Yeah. I think just having a really honest conversation before you're sending that new associate out, being up front and outlining that how that first year typically goes, that it's OK that they're going to be not as busy as other associates at the beginning and that they can call if they have questions and if they need help. I think that's a big thing.

Yeah. And you, Melinda? Yeah, I think, you know, providing the mentorship that each new associate needs, you know, tailor it to their strengths and weaknesses. And, you know, if the new associate calls and needs a hand to give it to them, definitely. And Jenna? I totally agree with everything that Melinda and Amy have said already. Additionally, I think it's not just right at the beginning. It's not right when the new graduate is hired. I think it's ongoing for a fair amount of time.

I think it requires continually checking in with the associate. How are you doing? Do you have any tough cases you want to chat about? Any clients that you struggled with? I think your point that you made at the end of the last question, Mike, was really, really, was huge. That the practice owner needs to support the associate completely 100% of the time. So when the client calls in and is frustrated or upset about something, absolutely, the practice owner needs to back up the new associate.

I also think that they need to, as much as possible, try to not sort of send them in to get absolutely eaten alive.

Like if it's a client that, for example, has been difficult in the past, I think potentially or a particularly tough situation, I think it's it's really helpful to have somebody who's willing as a new grad I'm saying it's helpful to have somebody who's willing to come and help you with that even from a client communication perspective or even talk to you over the phone say I know this person it will respond really well if you explain

it like this I've had that I've had several people help me in situations like that and it's extremely helpful. Well, let me flip this question around, Jenna. So, you know, in terms of you're a new associate or you're looking to go to a new position, all three of you are in that position.

And now that you know what you need as an associate, I mean, would you ask a different question or what question would you ask of a potential employer to make sure that they're going to give you that mentorship, that support that a new grad needs?

What are your thoughts on that Jenna what would you do again or do differently rather that's a good question and it's tough to know even if the answer that they give if you're in an interview situation or something like that it can be difficult to know if the answer they give you is going to be accurate but I probably would ask them it goes both ways well that's yeah that's a good point for sure I think I would try and ask them if I'm stuck at

a farm at midnight and I call you, will you answer your phone and will you come help me? Yeah, that's a good question. What about you, Melinda? I agree. I think that's a good way to approach it. And I guess this isn't exactly a question to pose a new employer, but maybe a question for past associates and how they found, the practice owner to be supportive or not so supportive. I think that could be a good, you know, good resource if available.

So Amy, you mentioned before when you're talking about your day that, you know, being an equine vet is a way of life, not just a career. So, I mean, is that legitimate? I mean, it seems to be our excuse in the industry when somebody works a long day. It's like, well, it's a lifestyle. And I mean, we look at small animal vets, I mean, they're done. And, you know, the amount of long call they have is much less than what we have.

So is that a legitimate statement or should we try to be looking beyond that? I think it's a legitimate statement, but I would like to see the profession move away from that a bit. I think that's, that's the key to having more equine vets stay in equine medicine and makes it more sustainable for all of us. And I, I constantly have to remind myself that there's more out there than just horses.

I have a lot of non-horsey people in my life and I'm sure it must get a bit annoying for them when I talk about horses about work and then as my hobby as well. So trying to find hobbies outside of horses to make my life, not just about equine medicine.

Yeah. What do you think about that, Melinda?

Because you're i mean you're the one that's on two weekends a month to two two days a week so i mean is is this a legitimate job part of the job description from my point of view definitely you know it's hard to escape when you know the next night you're going to be on call again or you know you're planning your life around your on-call schedule you know and i also think in area of cell phones and texting and you know clients expect 24 7 service and they want your personal phone number

and you know if you give it out then you have no escape what about you Jenna I think without a doubt there's more commitment required for a job in equine practice than the average job in small animal practice and the clients expect that and they and they want it And as an industry, we provide that for them. So would it be nice if we could move away from that?

Yes, I agree. Because I think it contributes to burnout and mental health issues and stress issues and anxiety that a lot of, that some veterinarians face. And I wish that there was a way that we could change that for sure. Absolutely looking forward. So that's a perfect segue into my next question is, and that is what are some of the changes we'd all like to see in the profession?

Just to encourage recent grads to stay in the practice, and I actually say more than recent, but just equine vets and period, but let's focus on recent grads. I mean, what kind of changes would you like to see in the profession? If you had a magic wand, what would you do? And we'll start with you, Amy.

I would love to adapt a model similar to small animal where there's emergency clinics. So maybe a whole bunch of local vet clinics have an emergency clinic that they send their emergencies to, or they have vets that go out to the farm to see these calls. And I think that would be a way to decrease the perceived threat of client stealing that goes on sometimes, unfortunately, but still providing great service for your clients.

And also it's going to allow for more careers in equine medicine as these clinics will be staffed with equine vets. But I mean, where we are in our part of Canada, I would say it's relatively collegial. You talk to people in other areas and it's pretty cutthroat. So I just, what is it about equine vets that don't let us sometimes play well in the sandbox that we can't share customers or we can't share our on-call together?

I think a lot of it is, even though we're in clinics, we're going out to farms on our own. So we are kind of working more on our own than say, being in a clinic atmosphere, having, you know, five or six small animal vets all in the same office, working together, collaborating on cases. We're very much on our own once we're on the road.

And I'm wondering if that's part of it. yeah that could be so melinda if you had your magic wand what would you like to see what changes would you like to see definitely you know there seems to be a better a bit of a generational gap between expectations in terms of on call and what your lifestyle is going to be like it seems like the older generations are not to stereotype but somewhat of workaholics and expect us to be the same whereas our generation values lifestyle and time

away from the job and I think just a recognition that that's oh so important would go a long way. My practice does share on call with a few other practices in the area that we are collegial with and but the expectation is still that we respond to our own clients whenever possible so the backup option is there but at the same time, I'm always on call for our clients when I'm on for our practice.

So yeah, that, you know, that we could probably talk for hours about that, you know, that generational difference perceived in reality. And just, I think we'll get more discussions with this podcast, with the Practice Life podcast to talk about that for sure. Because I think that is, that's a big factor. And I think a lot of it though is perceived and stereotypes, as you mentioned, Melinda.

So Jenna, finally to you, what do you think some of the changes you'd like to see in the profession to make it more sustainable for young practitioners? You kind of stole my thunder on that one a little bit, Mike, with your follow-up question to Amy.

I really think that the biggest thing that I would like to see changed is I would love to see Ego and practitioners learn to work together better, learn to collaborate, learn to cooperate, whether that's through a model similar to what Amy described or purely just Like if a couple of veterinarians are working on the same farm, I think it would be nice if they were comfortable to have a conversation and check in and like see how the other person was doing and potentially Chadwell

cases or whatever the situation may be. I would love to see that. I think if we can learn to work together, then it's going to share the burden and ease the load for everyone, if that makes sense. I sometimes wonder if the clients make equine vets competitive like that, because somebody said earlier that it's not like we're dealing with, you know, couch potatoes and pets that go out in the backyard, but they compete generally or they have to do things.

And it is that, you know, we are involved in a very competitive nature and that challenges our medical skills, but also our ethics. And I think it also challenges our collegiality because the pressure to perform is so intense. And I think that also contributes us to that lone wolf mentality as well.

Oh, absolutely. I a hundred percent agree. I think that a lot of it does come from the industry that we work in because a lot of the, a lot of the mentality definitely we share with the trainers and with our clients. So I think it's kind of hard and this is like big, big, very big picture and not overly practical, but I would love to see veterinarians be sort of role models in the industry. because I think in a way we already are.

And I would love to see us being the ones that really set the stage for learning, everybody learning to work together for the benefit of the horse and to make it more enjoyable for everybody. Well, we were talking about generational differences and as a middle-aged practitioner, I think the younger generation I've seen, and we've had a lot of new vets join the practice in several years, is you are much more collaborative of a generation.

And so I can see the changes that we're talking about happening over time, as long as your generation doesn't lose that. But I find you're much more collaborative and there's less ego in the room and everybody is sort of like, what's the best outcome here, as opposed to what's the best outcome for me. And I find that as a practice owner, phenomenally refreshing. And I think that's going to be one of the salvations of our profession. So...

Keep at it. So we talked a little bit before as we transitioned from intern to associate, but let's talk about when we were students there.

So what did you find really helpful as you transitioned from student to intern and then to associate? So, I mean, just in general. So let's start with Amy. What worked for you? My big thing is surrounding myself with people who think like me and who have the similar work ethic, but who also understand the importance of having, you know, an hour or two a day to yourself And, you know, that's not easy, especially in an internship situation.

But I was so lucky with my intern mates that I could talk to them. And if one of us was having a rough time, we would cover for each other. And at the same time right now in my job, I'm very fortunate with the people I work with. And as a student, too, I surrounded myself with good people and good mentorship. How about you, Melinda? I agree that the people you surround yourself with are incredibly important to your success. Yes.

You know, I also found that during the transition, having a gradual exposure to more and more autonomy really helped me. You know, as a student, you're completely sheltered from making your own decisions and your responsibility. Then throughout my internship, my personal responsibility towards cases grew over time. And now that I'm an associate, I'm on my own, in my own truck, making my own decisions. And I think that gradient really helped with my success.

What about you, Jenna? I think the most helpful thing for me was all of the examples I was exposed to of how to interact with others. Both in how to interact and communicate with clients, but also how to interact with my colleagues, interact with other veterinarians, the senior veterinarians and internships where we had surgeons and that.

And then also with the technicians and the office staff. I think that was huge for me, seeing really good examples and less ideal examples of that and seeing the outcome of that and having people along the way point out things that I was doing well and things that I could improve. I found that very, very helpful. When you can work well in a team within your practice, I think it really shows to the clients.

And I think once you have kind of like everything organized internally, then you're able to really focus on delivering the best possible service. So I think the examples that I encountered of that along the way were very helpful to. Interesting. So all three of you did internships and always when you're talking to students, and I'm sure you're getting it now too, do I need an internship? I want to be an equine vet, but it's harder to get an internship.

Do I need one? So are you glad you did an internship? And do you think it's essential to be a successful equine practitioner to have done an internship? What are your thoughts, Amy? I personally am very glad that I did an internship. It gave me the confidence and skills that I needed. That being said, if you can't get an internship because there's not as many positions, I think you can still be successful as an equine vet.

You just need to take your time and find a clinic that's really going to help you along the way. And then you can surround yourself with colleagues not even at the same clinic that you can call sometimes and get advice in general on cases. So I think you can do it. You just need to be a go-getter and work extra hard. What do you think, Melinda? I think it depends on the individual.

Jenna and I were classmates and both of us have classmates who did not do an internship and are succeeding in equine practice. And we have classmates who did not do an internship and left equine practice quite quickly after graduation. You know, they started off equine and then they stopped practicing equine medicine. So I think it can go either way. If you're incredibly motivated and you end up in a good practice, you can make it work.

You know, I'm personally very grateful that I did an internship. And I don't think I would be employed at the practice I am without having done it. And what about you, Jenna? Because you had two experiences with internships. So what are your thoughts on this? My thoughts are yes. If you want to do e-ground practice, you really should do an internship.

I think the reason that is, and similar to what Melinda was saying, there's people that in our class that do, that have done internships, and there's people that haven't, and both are successful in practice. I think the nice thing about an internship is that, particularly in equine medicine, you're not able as a student to get the same amount of hands-on experience as small animal or bovine students are, purely because horse owners really don't like students touching their horses.

They're not as open to that. So I think it's really hard to graduate school with the skills that you need. To be successful as an equine practitioner, like purely the technical skills that you pick up in an internship are amazing.

I also think that there's a very, very, very important component of seeing the gold standard of practice above and beyond just what you learn in school as a fourth year student, because I think you just don't really have enough time in fourth year to be, to absorb it all. So I think it's very valuable to see like the best standard of practice or as good as possible, as good as is offered at whatever internship you end up doing. To see that allows you to practice a higher level of medicine.

I really, truly believe that. I really, truly believe for people who want to do equine medicine, it's really extremely helpful to do an internship. So definitely I agree that is it possible to do it without an internship? Yes. But I would really advise any student that asks me, I always tell them, yes, do an internship. Absolutely do an internship for sure.

Final question. So we've been talking about, you know, we've been working our way backwards now we're talking about students so you know now that you've done school you've done internships you've been in practice for a couple of years what would you tell your alma mater or any veterinary school that they need to do better to prepare students for jobs and practice we'll start with you amy i think getting students out

in in clinic settings early earlier than you know third and fourth year is important so i know a lot of students come into vet school with clinical practice, but as a pre-vet, you're not doing as much hands-on. So I think even if it was just a week or two per year, starting in first year, really getting students out there would help them have a better understanding of what their job's going to be like when they graduate.

Melinda? I think that case-based learning, whether it's, you know, without the animal in front of them or in the clinic, seeing the case physically progress is so important. You know, sitting and. Viruses has really minimal impact on the way I practice. But the more cases you see and the more experience you have, the better able you are to apply your knowledge to your future career. And I think that's so essential. What about you, Jedha? I agree with everything that Amy and Melinda both said.

Additionally, OVC does a fantastic job of teaching client communication to students. I think, I realize I sound a bit like a broken record here, but I think that they could also focus a little bit on communication, like within your team. I see that being a huge issue for a lot of new graduates, learning how to treat the technicians respectfully, learning how to use them respectfully and use their expertise when you're starting out.

I think some additional work in that area would ease a lot of the tensions that new graduates face when they're starting out in practice. I'd have to echo what you said. I said a good technician can save your bacon sometimes more than another vet because they just know the clients.

They know how the clients want to be dealt with they know what the clients are used to and they can be your best friend and they can make or break you so yeah be nice to your technicians absolutely absolutely i've had days that i'm just not feeling that confident and i have and and our techs are great and they kind of are like my cheerleader on some days which is amazing that's awesome this has been a great conversation i i I get invigorated hearing about what, what solutions we can do.

And I just, your enthusiasm for the profession is, is, is I hope it spreads. And I hope we have been with this conversation is be able to share some experiences and hope other vets don't feel so alone and, and can find some common things in what you have said. So thank you all very much. Thank you. That was wonderful. Thank you. Thanks for organizing this. See you later. Bye.