Hello. I'm Jessica Samuels, and welcome to episode 4 of A Way Forward presented by Beam Credit Union. I'd like to acknowledge that we are on the ancestral, traditional, and unceded lands of the Okanagan Nation, Sillix people. Today's topic is men's mental health and suicide. My guest is CMHA Kelowna CEO, Mike Golick, and we talk about how societal expectations and norms around masculinity really impact whether or not men get help for their mental health issues.
Mike, this is being referred to in many countries as the silent crisis. Men are struggling. I mean, when we look at the 1,000, I think it's 4,000 suicides that take place, and this is a Canadian number, so that take place in Canada. You know, 75% of those each year are men. That's the rate 3 times higher than women.
I, you know, it's it's it's heartbreaking because I just wonder, could we be doing more? Like so we'll discuss what more we could be doing and and kind of what brought us here. But I I'm just really interested to have this discussion with you because this is something that really needs to be looked at and addressed in our community. And so what are your thoughts on why this is so high and why men are seem to be and are struggling in this way?
Well, I mean, I'm going to share some of my own lived experience and certainly what, you know, the data say. The Canadian stat tends to hold out when you go to other countries. You know, one of the things that's been talked about is a gender paradox in that women attempt suicide more frequently, but men die by suicide. Again, the stat in Canada is 3 out of every 4. And when you start to look at why, I mean there's a whole lot of factors that play into this.
At a simple level before we talk a little bit further about those factors, when men die by suicide, it tends to be a more lethal approach. There may be more impulsivity in men, which can also align with alcohol use and substance use ultimately. And the reality that men are less likely to talk about what's happening for them. And I think that goes deeper into society, the definition of masculinity, what that means. And when I think, I mean, I certainly come from a certain generation and in my own life I mean I've struggled with depression probably since I was a young adult.
Growing up it wasn't something that was talked about. Certainly wasn't something that I was aware of and I certainly didn't get even getting into this field. I've learned more for me personally when I look at my history and I look back to my twenties, for me, like there was there were signs and things that would show up. I knew I didn't feel right. For me, that would show up as I'd get a little bit more irritable in terms of losing energy and focus and those different pieces.
But coming forward and talking about that, that wasn't something that you did because certainly traditional views of masculinity are that talking about these issues, being vulnerable is a sign of weakness. Like what it means to be a man in society is about being strong, trying to, you know, just work through it.
Is this was this is this nature and nurture? Is this a learned behavior? Is it you were told not to? Because I think as as as individuals, you kind of look around and say, well, if no one else is talking about it, should I? But did you also have experience where you tried to express it and it was said, like, hey, man. Like, you know, put on your big boy pants or whatever the the comment is.
Yeah. I mean, I mean, ultimately, it wasn't recognized when you talk about nature versus nurture. I think, you know, the family of origin, you know, growing up, what you're exposed to within your family sets the stage for what it is okay to talk about and not okay to talk about. I think again in from a generational perspective, mental health wasn't something that was talked about in school. And I think if anybody were to speak to what they were they were experiencing, they're gonna be ostracized and marginalized and looked at as weird or there was something wrong or, it just it wasn't something that a) was talked about, and just knew it was inherently not something that was really safe to talk about because of the judgment that would come with that.
And that's not what a man is supposed to do because, I mean and and let's and I really appreciate you sharing your story and and where you're coming from a personal level here, and and I and I understand the the weight that comes with it. And I think it's people like yourself sharing those stories, and I think it's important to talk about the weight of what it means to be a man in society and, how that can really play on your emotions and and and play on how you conduct your day to day. So let's start with what I what what does it mean when you were growing up? What did it mean to be a man?
Well a man was someone who provided for their family. A man was someone who was strong, who would work hard.
Physically strong and emotionally strong.
Yeah. That's ultimately what that looked like. Right? And so, you know, the reality is you're trying to live up to those expectations and you're not in a place where, again, societally that's being talked about much, right? And then there's a lot of pressures that come and again when you look at the data and I certainly look at my own experiences like there's significant pressures that impact men's mental health.
From a provider perspective, when unemployment rates go up, suicide rates go up. When a relationship ends, how that relationship ends and what that looks like impacts a man's mental health significantly. So when you look at divorce, you know, the stability that comes with a relationship is pulled out from under your feet. And if there are children involved, What that looks like is, in terms of the relationship that a man has with their children, is another excessive point of pressure and can be something that negatively impacts a man's mental health.
Is part of that also, I wonder the expectation that as a man, you're not sharing your vulnerability and your emotionality around those situations. So as you're you're you're you're talking to me and we're talking
and
and I'm divorced. I I don't have children. I'm divorced, and I'm I'm thinking, yes. You know, that was horrible time in my life, And I had a network of people and family, and I could cry or yell or swear and move on. And and you're right. It takes a big toll on the emotional health. So talk about how that's different for a
man. Well, again, in my experience, you know, as a couple, as a family, there's social relationships that you have. When a split happens, those social relationships may no longer exist. The social connections and friendships that you have is really dependent upon whether it's safe to talk about those things. I think oftentimes other things that, you know, men experience and and how they try to address these issues is, you know, avoiding throwing themselves into work or some other pursuits, not speaking into it, not in some cases, not understanding that some of the symptoms that they're experiencing are actually related to their mental health.
And I think the same thing can play out as far as, you know, when you go through a split, you're facing all these things. You might look to cope. That's where self medicating can come in. Certainly, that's where a higher risk of people as far as suicide attempts and death by suicide. There's a lot of factors that play out with that and, and and then there's just not knowing what's going on.
Right? If you're not aware of mental health, you're not aware of some of the signs and the symptoms. If it's showing up as physical symptoms whether it's pain or you're having stomach problems or racing heart and you go to the to the doctor, you're going there potentially to talk about the physical symptoms that you're experiencing. And so sometimes in the in, you know, the medical profession, the focus then becomes on treating those physical symptoms. And there may not be a further look into what is behind those physical symptoms and and what else might be at play here.
Mhmm. And, I I think that's important to understand as well.
It is. And I do wanna come back to that in a minute, but I want I wonder as well, we've talked about before in this on this podcast about social connection and and having, those, you know, formal or informal, connections. Is what role does that play in this? Because, know, as a woman, it will be easy for me to sit here and say, well, you don't talk to your friends the way I talk to my friends. And and so when we you just gave an example of symptoms.
Oftentimes, we say if your mental health is not the same, you're not doing well. You know, maybe your friends around you will say, hey. Are you okay? Mhmm. Hey. You know, what's going on? You went through this breakup. Before we get to the doctor, you know, what is the impact of not having these these social connections in the same way that women have social connections?
I mean, it's it's, it's major. Right? Because those social connections, and the quality of those social connections can be the difference between having conversations and not having conversations. And I think I mean, when we talk about some of the things that can ultimately be done in regards to this connections, conversation, and community are absolutely essential to men who are struggling and need an opportunity to have the same sorts of conversations that may happen with others. And and and again, I think I look at it and I think about, you know, historically I look about again where it was safe as we've, you know, become more knowledgeable around these issues.
I look back and I look at, you know, for example, the workplace. Here you are again in a role with this expectation that you're gonna provide. And I remember a time when I was pretty stressed out. I was pretty burnt out and I was looking to take some time off. And people were suggesting to me it was time to take some time off.
I really struggled with the decision to actually do that because I was concerned around what would people think of me. Employers at that point in time, that wasn't something that was accepted or supported necessarily and certainly could be something that was looked at quite negatively. That's changing, but it is still a factor that absolutely impacts and plays itself out in terms of admitting, opening up and taking steps towards, you know, getting better when, when you're not doing well.
Right. Because men are also less likely to seek out help. So then that kind of goes back to that that medical piece that you were talking about before. So they're they're not opening up to their social connections or they don't have the social connections necessarily for that. They're not asking for help in a medical, kind of situation.
I do really appreciate how you bring in the workplace because we spend a lot of time at work. Right? Oh, absolutely. And the role that workplaces play and colleagues and employers and and the people and culture team play in saying, hey, are you okay? And it's interesting, to me as I'm sitting here and I'm and I'm listening to you share your story. And I think it's important to note that, this won't be the first time I've said this to you. You are a white male. Yes.
I am.
I'm not sure if you knew that. And thinking about the struggles that you have had speaking up and out about your mental health, and we know that, indigenous males in this community and individuals who are within the queer community also experience higher rates of, mental health issues, mental illness, and, attempting to attempting suicide. And so, really, we think about all the the factors that roll into speaking up and out. And you just wonder how can possibly there be the infrastructure to support men in this way?
Well, that's a I mean, that's a really good question. I think, when we look at sort of what's available. Right? Mhmm. You know, I I I and in preparing for our discussion today, take a look at like what resources are out there. Right? And what resources are out there specifically for men who may want to be become more informed? I mean, there's a number of websites. One is called Heads Up Guys. And, you know, looking at that website, I mean, it provides a ton of information.
It also has, like, embedded tools within it so you can take a test to assess where you're at. There's resources for people in the man's life in terms of how to talk about these things. There's information about different mental health concerns and and how to how to manage that. And I I mean and I think we're seeing, like, there's there's more of that. There's a number of other, you know, websites available. Right?
I'm thinking even one that's local to the Okanagan. There's He Changed It, which is an, an app and a podcast and really that that the genesis of that came out of, the individual's own personal experience with mental health as well.
Absolutely.
Yeah. Yeah. So and and now number of resources that you mentioned, all great things. And and I know that even some of the, movements that happen like, I know, Movember kind of went from I think before it was it was kind of focused on prostate cancer, and then now it's kind of moved into that mental wellness sphere. And that might be one that folks are more familiar with.
Yeah.
When I was also preparing for this, you know, I just wondered, how not that you you can really say, like, it's it's it's a balanced scale or whatever, but do you think that in societally speaking, so in the medical community, are we paying enough attention to this? So we we just mentioned a few resources. Right? We just talked about a few things that people could do. But I think if you look up, you know, women's mental health or other, issues that are specific to women or women also face.
I'm just gonna generally throw it out there. I just feel like you're gonna see a lot more, and there's a lot more of a movement behind it. And so from your perspective, which might be a little skewed because you're in the industry, what do you think about that? Are we paying enough attention?
Well, I think it goes back to the reality of we're not having that meaningful conversation. Right? The reality still exists that this is what it means to to be a man, to be masculine. And are we doing enough? I would say we absolutely need to do more.
I think, you know, how, you know, how men are viewed societally is also something that impacts the ability to have conversations or or to bring this piece forward. What I do know for me, as I've continued to, you know, go on my journey, I mean, what's made a difference is having decent friends that I can talk to and that it's safe to share about this. People in my life that say, hey, I've noticed, you know, yeah. You seem a little bit different and how are you doing? Which then allows the opportunity for that conversation and and to be able to talk about what's taking place.
And certainly then, again, accessing support and accessing help seems a little bit easier. And and the decision to seek help, I know for myself, there was just a certain level of relief in that. You're, you know, you're trying to hold on. You're trying to be strong and you're struggling and and having those connections and having people that care about you and check-in and say, how are you doing, makes all the difference in the world. And so when we talk about a movement absolutely when it comes to women's health, that that's that's more of a I would say just
We're more so we talked about it more. We are we from from a young age, we are, encouraged, allowed, whatever. There's more space for us to be vulnerable slash emotional and talk about our feelings.
Yeah. 100%. And and and that hasn't necessarily been the case. And so when you say paying more attention to it, I think the level of awareness around the impact, some of the data that we talked about, you know, when we dive into things like the current drug crisis that's taking place across our province, some really interesting data that was released at the end of last week for the 1st 9 months of this year. And and the people that have died from an unregulated drug supply, 77% are male.
When we look at the data from 2023 around where people are dying of unregulated drugs, 80% happens indoors. 47% of that is in people's homes. Certainly, when we consider 77% of men and dying at home alone that to me speaks to something as well. I mean there's recreational drug use. That's likely not something that's going to happen when you're by yourself.
That's something that happens in a social setting and the rest of it. And so I would query the link between, mental health and the data that's showing up so far, as far as, that, crisis that we're experiencing in our province.
I mean, those stats really painted a a a a really heartbreaking, image there of of of men alone and and and and using drugs. And then as you mentioned, it's a unregulated supply. Is part of that is there data around, or do we know are men more likely to turn to drugs in order to address our substances in order to address maybe their their mental health issues?
Yeah. I mean, absolutely. One of the ways that mental health challenges show up in males is increased use of alcohol. It's and again that's seen consistently self medicating ultimately. You might know something's wrong, but again accessing help might not be something that you know to do, or feel comfortable to do.
And so there absolutely is a link. I think the other thing that those stats speak to and I think it's something that absolutely our community, our province, and ultimately the country needs to understand. There's the perception of who is doing what. Who uses drugs? And it's really easy to go to thinking of places like the Downtown Eastside, going to tent city in Kelowna.
Yet what the data show us actually is that 20% of the deaths due to unregulated drug supply happen outdoors for unhoused populations. And the perception of that and certainly we saw the frustration come out when our provincial coroner left the post is that we need to be able to talk about this, understand this, and make it okay. Like substance use is still absolutely the most stigmatized area. Mental health is, you know, continues to have its, you know, the movement forward as far as destigmatization. But that's an area that we absolutely have to get our heads around because it's not.
It is people outside. It is sometimes those that, you know, society might assume are. But again, the data is saying something to us. And ultimately, when you say, is there more that we need to do? I think that data speaks specifically to the answer that, yes, actually, we do.
So what? You had to know that was coming.
Well, I think, I mean, part of it, you know, you go back to the simple part of of raising awareness, part of having conversations, providing opportunities for men to get together. And I think there's ultimately roles that absolutely organizations like ours, the Canadian Mental Health Association, plays. And I mean, last year we sponsored an event on men's mental health. As with any societal change, there has to be awareness. There has to be conversation and and there has to be the building of community to get to the place where this is something that's okay to to tackle.
I mean, I'm concerned in a world right now that's pretty divided. The concept of community is an absolute challenge. And so there's a lot of work to be done. I think what can individuals do?
Individuals
can go to some of those resources to just check it out. Individuals can arm themselves with information and, you know, for themselves or for people in their lives that they care about, start a conversation. Notice. Those are the first steps in terms of getting help. And I think, you know, at a community level, we need to talk about this way more.
It isn't something that we talk about a whole bunch for a number of the reasons that we've already spoken about. That hopefully can unlock some doors and provide opportunities for people to be okay with not being okay, and seeking out the help that might be available.
Few points I wanna make just coming off that is, is we talked a little bit about how mental health issues show up could show up differently in men. So when we talk about if somebody's doing that self assessment or they're assessing a loved one, There's, you know, there's there's the kind of the framework that we look at. Are they, you said, you know, drinking more, sleeping more, behaviors a little bit, different. You know, in in in some individuals, it might be quiet. It might be, more irritable.
In men, sometimes it's even more so. So, going from irritable to angry. Also, some physical symptoms, which you brought up earlier. Yeah. So it could be physically manifesting, and there could be part of the problem, but these could also be, some mental health concerns. So what are some other things that people can look for in themselves or, at the men in their lives?
I I think another factor is is the ability to concentrate, focus, restlessness. If you see a difference, that can be an indicator. Low energy, certainly when it comes to depression, When you notice again a significant change when somebody just doesn't have, I would say, the gas to get up and and and, you know, live, that's another factor that comes into consideration when we're looking at men's mental health. I think again one of the things around irritability, aggression, and ultimately sometimes unfortunately abuse is in some way again societally that seems to be a more acceptable way for a man to behave. It's expected that.
Right? And so those are those are factors that ultimately need to be looking at and considering in in this as far as when there's concerns and and potential risks and you need to take a closer look at what's happening.
I think if you're an individual who's observing this in in someone else in your life, whether it's a man or or anyone, there's a hesitant. I have heard there's a hesitancy to ask because you're worried that you won't know what to do with the information if the person shares with you. Either you're gonna give them wrong information, you don't know what to say. And, you know, one of the terms that that I learned in my time here at CMHA Kelowna is be present, listen
Mhmm.
And hold space for that individual. And you don't always have to have the answers, but you can be there for them and you can help them to find the answers. And I think that is the responsibility for the folks that are around men as well.
Abs 100%. And there is a concern sometimes that having the conversation might open a can of worms and because don't understand mental health that that could do more harm than good.
Or if you bring it up, you're gonna trigger something that maybe wasn't there.
Yeah. Those things that you talk about, be present, listen, show concern and compassion. Those are things that are essential and and it's it's not going to be the mistake that you make. I think the mistake that you make is when people don't have those conversations, when they're not noticing what's taking place, those opportunities for connection and the ability then to support. And and and whether someone seeks out professional help or not, it's being there in their lives.
It's noticing if you haven't heard from somebody in a while. Should I check-in and and just see how they're doing? Right? So having a conversation, it's okay and it's necessary. Mhmm. And it's part of what anybody can do to help support, in these circumstances.
One question back to you personally I have for you. You shared, your your own journey with mental health today, And, you know, it it has struck me that you have been in this space for a very long time in in youth mental health and homelessness and all of that. How how does your day to day work? I mean, this is heavy work. I don't think there's anybody out there listening or who knows or who works at any of the other wonderful organizations that we have in in the Okanagan and across this province.
This is heavy work, and you really have to make sure that you are in check. How how has that been for you? Like, how do how do you do the work, going through some of the things that that you've shared with us here today?
Well, it's a challenge. Again, I think, having been involved in the work and understanding mental health a little bit more, I have a I have a level of self awareness that I didn't have before. There are things that I do to to take care of myself whether that includes taking medication, I see a therapist. Then there's those things that I know I should do that sometimes are challenging to do, like eat right, exercise, all of those things that we know that are important for mental health. So it certainly can be a challenge.
Again, having people in my life who will ask and in some cases, challenge me a little bit makes a huge difference towards sometimes pointing out, hey, you know, you maybe need to take a look at things. And for me to go, okay, I think it's probably time to book an appointment with with my therapist. I think, you know, I better get out and hop on my bike and and go for a ride. And sometimes that can feel really heavy when you're struggling, finding the energy to do that, and and and knowing that it can little steps are okay, knowing sometimes it feels overwhelming and you don't have to take care of it all just a little bit. Those are all things that, I mean, I look at and, you know, we talk about, like, mental health versus mental illness and wellness.
Right? And you might not have a mental illness and still be struggling. Exactly. And you may have an mental illness and be be functioning. Right?
It's it's what we do to take care of ourselves. It's those some of those things that I've spoken to, and everybody's gonna have their own path and their own journey to that ultimately. When you're struggling, I would say ultimately, again have that conversation and find what works for you. And that's that's important. If it's getting to the point where you need to look at accessing health within the system.
Again, if you have a GP, that's a place to start. If you don't, there's urgent primary care centers where you can go. Depending on, you know, employment whether or not there's a benefit plan attached to your work, accessing resources through there. Some employers are doing health spending accounts which allow you to get access to different activities and things that might support you to be healthy. And then if it's to the point where, again assistance is required, There is also the public system in Interior Health that provides mental health and substance use services and a number of community organizations as well that provide supports including ours in the form of virtual counseling, which is free and a single session, low barrier opportunity to to talk to somebody.
And you might start the conversation and you may have another. But those are the steps to take when things are becoming a point of concern and, you know, it's time to seek out a different level of support.
Right. Don't wait until you're in crisis. Get help sooner.
Yeah. And and and hopefully, those conversations allow you to have a plan and to have a network, and how how essential that is to mental health and mental wellness for men.
Thank you, Mike.
Thank you.
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