A Sounder Life Episode 4.5 with guest Raelene Castle ( minus John's ramble)

as an introduction. So thanks very much for the Frank feedback from those who gave it to me, which essentially was John, we found the conversation with Raeleen really interesting, but the preamble, not so much. So here we are 4.5. It's a great chat with Ray Lane, who has been a good friend of mine for many,

many years. We reminisce about that we chat to her about her amazing career, and sport and business, which is far from over some of the challenges she openly talks about, and the learnings from those, which I think is fantastic. And some great conversation in points made around women in leadership

and leadership in general. And also, this phrase imposter syndrome, which we hear quite often and increasingly often around all sorts of scenarios, both in work and just people's own personal anxieties about feeling like they don't have the right to be in the room or the role that they have. So writing has a fantastic reset take on that and in fact a new phrase to describe it as well. So I am sure that if you do listen to this, you will get something out of it in terms of a new

perspective. Certainly let me know if you have any feedback for us. Good, bad or indifferent. If you do like the episode, please give us a Like on Spotify or Apple podcasts and tell your friends and if you do have any direct feedback for me Do feel free to shoot me an email at John JRH in head territory three dot community. Thanks for listening and onto the show with guest Raylene cast 212 Brilliant. So happy. One, two.

I'm too lazy to edit it. So whatever we say from this time forward, we actually just record and run with so it is my junior year Yeah, so there's there's no opportunity because it's just too hard for me to to remove anything so you do have to I guess be quite considerate about your responses. You saw that in the contract you signed a new

this conversation. Because this will personify carefully a lot of conversations that we've had socially, which had been very enjoyable and a bit of event to be honest, I think certainly from my point of view around our worlds and how they come together and yeah, I've just been very appreciative of your friendship over Gosh, I've tried to work it out the other day that's a long time as I'm not sure whether we should share that with with guests but

So just a quick intro to you which feel free to correct in any shape or form. But you were born in Wagga, Wagga, Wagga, Wagga walk around sorry, I should have asked about that before. But a very quick migration to New Zealand, early early in life less than a year old. And yeah, I mean, Wikipedia doesn't do you justice, really, in terms of your career when I met you. Xerox Bank of New Zealand telecom as it was back then. And yeah, a slew of executive appointments, I think mostly in marketing.

And then, for me, an incredibly impressive achievement in 2013, CEO of the Canary Bankstown, Bulldogs, and not just CEO, but the first female CEO ever and the National Rugby League in Australia. So I'm really keen to dive into that experience. And then followed on by another really interesting challenge 2017, rugby, Australia. And between that in your current role, you were awarded the officer, New Zealand of merit for services to sport and business, which is just

absolutely awesome. And now we're talking to you live, run and gun style is the CEO of sport, New Zealand. And so men as I have to disclose that, out of all my friends, you are probably my go to when it comes to support.

And I think you've got a really interesting perspective on something that we kicked off on the last episode with Natalie Ferguson, almost accidentally, actually, and I will ask you this question as well. I did have a script. So I was quite organized. But I asked net, what books she was reading. I don't even know why I asked Actually, it wasn't on my script. But she said she was reading some trashy novels, and in a number of books on women and leadership. And so we basically just ended up for

the rest of the podcast. riffing around that second topic, the trashy novel stuff was of no interest to anybody, I don't think. Yeah, so what have you been reading?

some downtime. So why don't I read books, I'm fortunate to meet and mix with some really interesting people every single day. And so for me, it's always been on the job learning. It's been about who I see who I observe who I'm fortunate enough to meet with. And watch how they deal with certain situations. And so I'm sort of a kinesthetic learner, really. And that's always been more for me then reading and highlighting books. So yeah, I'm, it's just kind of always the way I've, I've done it.

And that gave us a lot of downtime driving between cities and you know, having catching up at dinner and, you know, asking him how did he bring a crew together that sat around the rest of the world? You know, how

did he choose those people? What was important time when he was bringing together that leadership group, you know, all of those things and so You know, that's been a really important part of my learning as being fortunate to, you know, be in part of Max with those people in take the little, you know, spots of gold out of those different people that I've been fortunate to maximum meet with and, and then you know, start to join those together and take those learnings. So yeah, absolutely.

I've had some amazing opportunities, and I haven't just let them wash by I've made the most of them.

religion really. Yeah. And I don't think it until I've, you know, got older and reflected the real upside and benefit and why I'm such a believer in the value of sport as that it does encapsulate many learnings and opportunities that you have in a business environment that you have, as a young person navigating what the world looks like, as you go into it, you know, leave school, go to university, leave university,

try and get a job. And, you know, so there's social connections, that you have to make the decision making that have to make inside a game, you know, leadership opportunities that you get given, dealing with success and disappointment, because you get selected and then you get dropped or you, you know, get make the team that you want, but don't get made the captain.

And you know, so all of those are really good analogies and alignments and learnings that you have, what you don't realize that you're having until you find yourself in a situation, you know, that first job situation and how do you deal with deal with it. And suddenly, you've got some skills and capitals that you didn't realize you had, but you've you've learned them through your

sporting engagements. And so I think at a personal level, it's important at a national level, it's important, because, you know, it can bring New Zealanders together. And we saw that, most recently with the, you know, black phones wanting the Rugby World Cup was extraordinary.

And I was just sharing this morning of a story where not only was the performance and the winning extraordinary, but my colleague was sitting in the stands, she bought her ticket and on one side of her was a three generation D family who stood up and signed the national anthem when it was sung. And the other side of her was an Indian dad in his wife who had brought his wife and four daughters along because he wanted to show his young daughters how girls

could do anything. And he was an opportunity to see it for real. And then the national anthem was sung in Toronto, and in the sweetest, most Intune loud version I've ever heard at St. John's ever an enormous sporting opportunities over the years. And that was because it was a different crowd, it was a younger crowd, it was, you know, more fan base. So it was it was just amazing. And you know, I believe that it can sport can

change lives. I'm not saying that, you know, musician or drama or musical drama or acting or any of those other things can't because they all do. But in you know, New Zealand context sport, you know, holds that into end element. And we all know that physical activity is good for us. And the more fit we are unhealthy we are, the better we can perform whether that's in a work environment or funnel environment. So you know, across the spectrum, it makes a

difference in New Zealand. And that's why I'm really believing that.

done. I mean, you know, on a scale of one to 10 how pivotal Do you think this whole you know, stack of what's been built around the one actually is for us as a country?

could have been. And so they looked them in the face and worked out what they need to do with it, they appointed, arguably, the world's one of the world's best coaches, and Wayne Smith, who had the manner to step into that environment and really make a difference. And I was lucky enough to hear that he said something really interesting, which was that woman have to feel good to play well, and mean, have to play well, to feel good. And I just think that's a really interesting analogy about

dealing with the differences. It goes to diversity in conversations, why it's valuable around a board table, but why, you know, you have to have, you know, different voice, and we have to think differently, you know, in a sporting context, woman aren't just little men, they're actually, you know, have their own skills and capabilities and their own

right. And then, you know, not only that, but they actually, you know, got through that, that game, and then they, you saw it bring New Zealand together. And then you saw the total authenticity of how female athletes represent themselves and how genuine they are and how

they can take on a journey. So in a context of sport, you've got to review, you've got actions, you've got outcomes, you've got implementation, you've got success, and then you've got celebrating that success in a way that was meaningful for the whole New Zealand. So you pick that story up in a business context? And you go, right, how do I implement that, and into something that's working inside my, you know, business environment, so important for

women's sport? It's, you know, I'm a great believer in you have to build the base really strongly. And that's about coaching strength and conditioning, building the product so that the product speaks for itself. And that's when the commercial doors follow. And that's what the Black Ferns showed us that that commercial dryers will follow more significantly now for them. Because they proved and showed to us a product that all sports fans be a man or woman wants to sit down and watch.

approach. But that's what made it you know, I had lots of people, lots of middle, you know, older middle aged men say, it's like what rugby used to be. We used to be before it went professional, when you didn't have 120 kilo guys playing on the wing. And so that's a, that's a, that's just a point in time, that's different. And the woman's game will change as it becomes more deeply and widely

professional. But we don't want to lose those nuggets, because that's what turned the crowd on and made it really interesting to watch.

those. But if we can kind of take that into the business context. So get the sport pace.

Now. Now, the business side, and we've already covered some of that, as you say, in terms of how that that story is going to, to lead to lots of really interesting commercial side, but give us your view on on business and rolling castles sort of career progression, and we wanted to end up and I think, for me, my observation personally, would be that you've been quite intentional about your career path, which I really admire. But I'm keen to see whether you have the same view.

But I had always wanted to work in sport but didn't quite see the opportunity to start and that when I finished my Bachelor of Commerce and the corporate world, the reality of sport now is that it is a big and increasingly a very big business. And so you do have to have some good base skills in the business context and experience. And that's what big corporates in this country gives you.

They give you opportunity, they give you training, they invest in your professional and personal development, they teach you how to write a really good business case, they teach you to deal across departments, and your navigate your way through complex, you know, hierarchy and political environments. And when you overlay that into a sport environment, none of those things are very different. They just happen tend to happen on a

smaller scale. So I'd looked at some sporting opportunities, but never, never, they'd really felt quite right. And then I was fortunate to just an intro before I went to the Bulldogs, I was CEO of netball, New Zealand, which was a perfect timing for me.

I bought my commercial skills in how to drive and open doors and the sponsorship from commercial opportunity and to netball that was launching the ANZ Championship, it was a joint partnership with netball, Australia, which in itself is a really interesting business challenge. When you think about I'm going to your biggest competitor, and saying let's get them to be together in

competition. So that's in itself as an interesting dynamic about how you go about that, the mistrust that happens on both sides and have to build that trust to ensure that there's, there's benefits for both sides, in that, in that opportunity ends, you know, we managed to take a sport and double, if not triple its commercial revenues, because we bought a new competition to the market. We talks amateur the same efficiently athletes and turn them into single freestyle professional athletes.

So the first time in Australasia, that woman could play in a professional, semi professional competition that went for, you know, 16 weeks or, you know, sort of a half a year and training and everything, but you know, sort of 12 to 16 weeks and then allowed them to earn enough money to survive and be professional. And that had never happened in Australasia before. Um, that was before the, you know, AFL W's, and big bash

cricket and in the like. So, you know, that was an incredibly, incredibly proud of that and be part of a team that managed to pull that together and deliver it in a way that changed the landscape for professional athletes in a team environment was was really special, but it was my commercial experience in the ability to like cutting a deal and knowing what a good sponsorship deal look like, because I'd say on the other side as a customer, was really helpful as we as we built that product.

said. So I'm going to go up to the sort of top of my pyramid now from from, you know, that sport, aspect, the business aspect to, to I guess, really what sort of, well, for us certainly brings those two together. And a lot of sensors and a lot of what I love talking about with people, and that's the cultural side of things, I think that's going to take us into some pretty interesting space, which I covered with, with Natalie as well, around leadership and diversity and so

forth. But, but at a top level, you know, if you're in an elevator with somebody, I mean, I'm not sure how many floors you're going up, let's say it's maybe 10 or 15. And you had to sort of paraphrase culture from whichever way you want to talk about what would what would you what would you say to somebody in that elevator

different ways. And so until you've got an environment of trust and respect, and everyone's bringing their best attitude them besides to work every day, then I don't think you can really create a culture that's vibrant and supportive and to his capitalization deliver effectively and whatever it is that you're you're looking

to. And that trust or respect paces is hugely important has to be led by the leaders, they have to create that environment, you know, being authentic as a leader yourself, and making sure that they can see the real you and that your values come through and the way that you lead and engage with the person that drives the forklift in the in the building and a chance to go in and chat with them and say G'day, and know as many names as you as you possibly can and had and really big organizations but

being able to communicate at that level, but also stand obviously around a boardroom table and do the things that you need to do to represent your organization and everyone in between. I think that's important. You know, I got some really good advice from my own mentor who said to me, you know, be yourself be authentic, because as one of your strengths, but don't get so close, you can't kick their ass.

Yeah. So I think that ability and leadership to see that, you know, people are authentic and real unapproachable and live the values of the organization, but are prepared to make the hard decision when the hard decision

is required. But that's done in a way of with respect for the people that might be impacted, or that the communication that you go about through that time as as authentic and as genuine and caring as possible, can actually see people in through a tough situation actually leave respecting the organization, because it was the way they were treated. So you know, those bets are on important that trust and respect also allows you to have robust and respectful

conversation. So I talked about respectful tension, drives things forward. You can't all have a big lovin, because you all sort of you know, it's really good way to see everything, you know, start to slowly go backwards, because you haven't actually had the tough conversations and created the change in the modern world that we need to need to make. But at the same time, that's that tension needs to be respectful, because when it gets lopsided, that's when the culture starts

to fall apart. So, you know, that would be way more than 15 floors worth of, well, he

all sort of makes that real. And that, for me has, you know, been one of those things that I've seen in leaders that I've worked with, in the example that they see it, you know, my my mentor, who used to be the CEO of a more of KiwiRail, here, in when it was owned by toll and then, you know, once a year, he would get in a train in Qatar and he would go all the way to bluff in the

front with the train driver. And he said, I would learn more in those two days of experiencing, you know, hearing from the train driver because on the ground talking to the people understanding what was happening. I saw what it stopped what it looked like when we loaded things onto the train and

off the train. We know those are those are the sorts of opportunities that, you know, are important, I think, to connect to that level and really understand what's happening in your business at that at that level. And, you know, I see Greg Foran, you know, serving the, you know, the drinks and in the tea and coffee on in New Zealand and, you know, he's really understanding what the customers experiences and what it looks like and how that, you know, is,

is real. And, you know, when I first started and it was New Zealand, I went on a tour and I, you know, I drove the minibus and and literally got, you know, in and around the environment in

a way that wasn't insured. First of all, didn't wasn't didn't hear any commentary, it just had the opportunity to observe and actually watch and see what the challenges were and see how the team engaged with the coaching staff and the strength conditioning staff and to see it start to see what good look like and you know what, so that you can start to taste and smell what not good might look like. And you know, those those

things. So, you know, I think that ability to relate across the organization and feel comfortable moving into those different environments, and you can always taste and smell when cultures going well, and you can certainly taste and smell it when it's not going well.

Yeah, the comment on this particular post was around, you know, is this just a stunt or, as the, you know, as the intent there to do just as you've described, and, you know, as I recall, I think I've seen similar posts to that up to two years ago, you know, probably not two years ago, because we

weren't quite out of COVID. But it's, you know, seems to be a consistent approach and also have the benefit of some people who knew him and his previous role where his approach was exactly the same in respect to visiting stores, to just get that on the ground stuff, and not just once for, you know, for a photograph for the annual report, but just regularly and consistently. Is that to sort of, you know, the, what have you

seen? And what are your feelings about that in terms of that sort of classic sort of photo opportunity versus doing things? You know, not necessarily a lot of things, but certainly the things you do well and consistently.

plane. We had, you know, the very tragic passing of Olivia problem or in suspected suicide, and we got the group together, it happened late on a Monday night, we got the key staff together, we had a conversation, and I said, I'm going to drive to Cambridge, first thing I did in the morning was get up with our director of performance support, and we drove to Cambridge to be in the location where the grief was happening.

Now, I didn't know at that stage, whether that I was going to be of any value, I didn't know if I could do anything, I didn't know whether exactly what I was walking into, all I knew was that we were going to have between cycling New Zealand staff, high performance sport, New Zealand staff, we had a lot of really devastated people that didn't know exactly what the right things to do, were in the moment I got there, there was a war room set up cycling New Zealand, we're working through

all of the different things that they need to consider how they're going to support the people that need support. And it was they were or, you know, already doing some really good stuff, they greatly appreciate the fact that we come to be part of that our own staffs appreciate it. And, you know, I ended up doing a press conference that night, you know, which I wouldn't have been able to do if I hadn't been on the ground. And, you know, so you sort of got in front of the

conversation. And whether then it ended up in a press conference, or whether it had just been on the ground, people knew that you had shown the support. So sometimes that's instinct, it's not actually about it's definitely not about the photo opportunity. And if you do reasons, that's the wrong

reasons. But actually, that, you know, authentic, there was tons of tears, there was hugs there was, you know, you know, checking in on people making sure that they were well in, you know, we had a cup of stuff that went missing, and we'd made sure that people out to look after them. So you know, all of those things are the important part. And that's it trust and respect pace, which people only let you into those environments and feel

safe with you there. If you've built the trust and respect in advance, can't just walk in on day one and suddenly be there. Was it like, well, who are you? Why are you here? Like just because you wrote the title of CEO doesn't mean that you can rock up and be part of something that's so intimate in stressful and emotional. So I often say that title should only give you the opportunity to prove your own trust and respect in your

own style. Ultimately, it's what you do that gives you the respect with title

different ways. But it also comes with, you know, the pay packet, right, the expectation, that is the person that gets paid at the level that you do that you do have to deal with the good things, but you show us how have to deal with the tough things as well.

the top. And I think the thing about the last few years, if I was reflecting on it, the other day with some folks is that, you know, if you're the CEO or a senior executive, or even at a board level to a certain degree, your decision matrix once you've actually leaned in and truly understood and you know, being present, and you know, you have that trust and respect that that decision matrix and again, I'm going back to New Zealand, I think is a classic example is not is not one where you get

anywhere close to the ideal result for all your stakeholders isn't that

important. So, you know, there's lots of learnings around that you can see and pick up, you know, as I said, every single day, around how you can see leaders doing this and in their own way. And, you know, I'm watching all the time for for those things that, you know, I can try and learn from and understand, you know, what good looks like?

work from home? I can't even imagine, like, when I first went for my first interview, like, you know, I couldn't imagine asking something like that. And, you know, that worries me, John, I think, you know, I really believe in face to face engagement in the conversations that you pick up by osmosis the charging, have a chat at the watercooler the chance that you can overhear something and get involved in something from that's important to you your role or your project or your

team's project. And that's a really hard thing to do on teams and zoom, when you've got you know, it's very linear, and it's very much inside your own team environment. So that, you know, really worries me about that silo effect that it can have on an organization. And, you know, there are some practical upsides I know, you know, ANZ to have

decentralized a call center. So for, you know, working mums and dads to be able to be at the call center, and, you know, be able to sit in and still do their job, but having flexibility at home or the location they live, that's amazing. And I can totally see how that works. But when you're in an environment where you know, value of face to face connection, and contact and conversations that are multifaceted projects, there's no doubt that face to face is more effective, and that's

outcome. So trying to get that right balance, where you've got a culture where people feel they can be trusted in have some more flexibility to not travel and high peak times or, you know, go to the gym earlier straight at five o'clock or 530 when they finish as opposed to a travel home. All of those things are good. But I do can I do worry about what the impact on on the culture that we started this conversation about? What the impact will have?

that different environment. Some people that's great, I believe, you know, they can really focus but I think what you're highlighting here is just that sort of contribution to team and contribution to outcomes. There's a lot of must without being face to face or close, you know, close for center See to your to your project or your venture or you know, your business colleagues.

office to pick up some files. So she'd go to hospital, look after other child and the partner said to her, you know, this is a, this is an office, this is not a crate, what is your child doing here. And so you know, that's not the reality of the world that we work in now, workplaces are much more flexible about children being in there or the flexibility to work from home.

But she put to the audience that there is a risk that this doesn't end up being the big regret of the progress that women have made around equity, that we don't choose, remote working in isolation, and missing those opportunities that you get, because how do you get promoted, where you get promoted by doing good job, and it's

multifaceted, right? It's not just about the work that you do in deliver, it's how you engage in environments, it's how you present it's how, what leadership opportunities, do you step into? What does that look like, and if you're not getting those opportunities, because you're at home, choosing to be work flexibly and care for your children, which is obviously hugely important. You know, let's not make this a moment that we regret, because we have made some good strides in the

equity space. But but you'd hate to see that go backwards. And I think come that there isn't a conversation, we have to keep live.

feel that far off. And the point is still, you know, horrendously clear, and I think, for me, the challenges there, you know, if you look at consumer stuff, from a marketing point of view, or anything that they, they throw out there in an academic context, or even your own direct experience, which you've had a lot of, I mean, these decision makers on large consumer purchases are predominantly

women as well. And yet we have these business structures where there just not a lot of diversity and presence around

the table. Before we sort of get through that, I mean, looking at, at your career, I mean, first woman CEO of a national rugby league team, so really keen to perhaps start into that conversation about your learnings or thoughts of that even just getting appointed to that I'm intrigued to whatever level you're comfortable sort of taking us through and then if that wasn't enough, yeah, you know, probably the highest profile CEO role and Australian sport when it comes to

Australia, rugby, and all the all the challenges and so forth that come with that. I mean, you know, now with that sort of women specifically in leadership liens, what are your thoughts as we sort of bake into some of the things that we just parked for a moment, through those experiences around where we're at and what we need to do?

dream come true. My dad played rugby live in New Zealand, I'd grown up with him sitting on the couch watching Winnfield cat, which can be underestimated and why I felt more comfortable stepping into the environment, because I had a, you know, 30 year, underwrite and to NRL, and actually understanding there wasn't a rugby league player in the last 25 years that have played in the in around that I wouldn't have had some understanding, or at least knowledge or name recognition or

so I could walk in a room of great rugby league players and identify the ones that I could go up and introduce myself and know who they were. And they had a good base understanding of the sport and the roles and so you sort of can't get away from that. Like, it's like any job, right? You don't go in to be, you know, a CEO in the fashion industry, if you've got no fashion experience, you can't go in and you know, so it's sort of

lent itself to that. They put me through an interview process, which started with 4000 applicants. In Yeah, 4000 crazy and ran it through to the end. And that was the greatest gift they could give me because there was no there could be no comment around. tokenism or, you know, just doing this for publicity or any of that. And, you know, that was a It had the Bulldogs had had some quite significant cultural issues that had a significant rape scandal that had a big salary cap scandal.

And then suddenly when I first started, I'd go to I function and sunny and, you know, people I'd say our handwriting casts on the sea of the Bulldogs. And they'd go, oh, yeah, you're from that rapist club. Oh, I'm like, Wow, that's good. The good thing I can say, after four and a half years in that role, that wasn't what people said to me when they

meet me. And there was a much sort of wider and more family oriented view of the Bulldogs and how they were represented and the work that we were doing in the community, we were the first ever NRL club to sign up with white ribbon, which was more people send me you may, that is just going to blow up in your face, because we can have a player on a domestic violence charge. And I said, Yeah, you're right, we might. But the whole point of what Robin is, how do

we deal with that? How do we deal with it more effectively? How do we look after the family? How do we make sure that our players understand the impact that that's going to have on the team environment? How are we going to understand organizationally, how to deal with that and what to do with it. So, you know, some of those things were really, you know,

significant. You know, we as a CEO, when you get appointed by a board, that's a really pivotal moment, because for a period of time, you don't have to look behind you. Because you can look forward and concentrate on the business. But when board changes, and you have to spend time looking behind you, as well as in front of you, that's when being a CEO gets really difficult, because you should be united the board and the CEO should be nice, and you should only have to work and walk into

one direction. And you know, that's so that those first 18 months or so when you know, you've got a nice opportunity is where you really have to build the relationships and the credibility, and the trust and respect that we talked about earlier into that environment. So that when you do get some changes on the board, that might not be as straightforward that you've got some credibility to to base the, you know, the direction that you're giving to the board into the into the wider organization.

and had to sit down. And they've just appointed the second female CEO into the king rose. And that's exciting. And so they now have a female CEO on the AFL. But there still isn't a female CEO in the NRL. And, you know, I don't want to be the only Yeah, I didn't particularly want to be the first but I just was, I wanted to be the first because that broke the glass ceiling, so that other woman can step into those opportunities. And it's probably

beat us and 14. That will that's the that's the one piece probably Jonathan, if I was being really candid, that's the one thing that I am really disappointed about, I think to have left that and to have been, you know, the first, you know, CEO of a club that won a premiership would have been would be extra special, but unfortunately, we couldn't get that one done grandfather was as close as we got, which in itself was a truly unbelievably magnificent life experience that

you just you know, not many people get to experience but yeah, I you know, I just that's the disappointing thing is Why has it not open the opportunity for other woman to step up and step up into into that opportunity? Because equity and diversity around that table in our our leadership table is hugely important. And it's, you know, it's certainly not the unkillable end at the moment.

club are female, right? So they have no female representation to your point about buying decisions represented on your board is nuts. It's nuts, right? It's totally nuts. Apart from the fact that it's also a really important way of taking and driving your decision making and performance forward. Because that's proven to that the more diversity you've got on your board, the better outcomes for

your organization. And you've now gone in a row W, which is woman's teams being represented by about 50% of the NRL clubs in so you still haven't got representation by female on your board where you're making decisions. So just it's illogical. It doesn't make sense. Sport is the last best year. And I was actually saying last night, I couldn't find

exactly the right words. But if you think about democracy in a way around the world at the moment, sport is actually the last best in of have power and control. So it's about federated models, it's about my turn, it's about making sure I keep the power and control for my little piece of the world, people represent someone boards, wearing the hat for the the town or the province or the team that they come from, as opposed to representing the organization on which the board they're sitting

on. So that makes leading and sport really challenging as well, because you can't make a decision as CEO and in effect at and tomorrow, you have to take the organization in the sport with you. Yeah. So it creates a lot greater and deeper leadership challenges, then sitting at your table, when in a big New Zealand corporate and deciding to restructure and getting on with it, you've got to go through a lot of consultation and engagement to get to those types of outcomes.

issue. Any learnings or thoughts before we go back into that sort of how you actually structure and have these conversations to move forward on these things?

seemed really complex. The reality is on the inside employment contract, employment issue, breach employment contract, breach are the values of the organization. And as a leader, you've got to step up and make those decisions. And they're not easy or straightforward. But they are the right ones, because I've responsible to provide a safe working environment. And I a number of staff that didn't feel safe, because they were from the

LGBT IQ community. So you know, but what my learning, John, I think, is that as we move into a world more and more, where diversity is absolutely critical part of modern day leadership. We have diversity and inclusion policies. And we use those two words in the same sentence. The reality is that they're like oil and water. Yeah. So it's really easy to have a diverse board, right? So you can write the names down, and you can say,

yep, this looks really good. And in particularly in the context that we face here in New Zealand of our bicultural journey, which is something I'm enormously proud of and think New Zealand will lead the world and, but how you give everyone safe space to be able to be open and honest in

that environment. And when you've got genuinely diverse opinions coming from opposite sides of the table, that's an incredible leadership skill to be able to bring that together in a cohesive way where your organization can continue to perform and, you know, that's where it's sort of, it's easy, like I said, there's a policy that goes division includes the ones like job done, you know, what behaviors right that got that policy, the practical implementation of that is much

more challenging, and, and that certainly was my outtake of my experience there. And I wouldn't change that experience for the world because it certainly taught me a lot And, you know, I've always been someone who feels, you know, personally very passionate about the underdog and making sure that everyone's got a voice. And, you know, that was certainly an opportunity to step up and represent a community that hadn't had a voice publicly, or hadn't always had a voice publicly.

picking up is really, what I totally agree with, is that it's all about getting the building blocks in place to actually, you know, build a house that that stands up strong. And if you've got some, you know, some legal or systemic elements of it, which just slow you down, or actually take you down, you know, different parts of this incredibly challenging isn't

you were doing before. So sometimes the person that has to make the really tough decisions and create a change an environment, a change in structure, or, or, you know, actually turn an organization upside down to evolve and change your culture and move some people on might not be the right person to lead that through. And sometimes I see leaders compromise the decision or decision making, because they want to continue to be the CEO.

And I suppose I've always, you know, been preferred to take the the passage of being making the right decision for the organization, in the moment in the decision that you had to make for the future of the organization, recognizing that, that you might not be there to take a vote. And I mean, you're my my examples, as roughly how and free to Ebro Castile for rugby, Australia, that was just

distinctly unpopular. Whilst it was the right decision when your biggest competitors all got free to ear, but it made some people in longstanding relationships feel very uncomfortable. And ultimately, they decided that I had having opened the door and create an opportunity for that to happen. I wasn't the right person to continue it on, going forward. And is that hard in the

moment? Sure. But do I put my head on the pillow and go, I think we made the right decision for the organization with the challenges that was facing? Yeah, I think we do. So I can put my head on the pants label? Well, because I think we did the right thing for the organization to grow and move forward.

right place. It's why you can't run your business through the feedback from social media, because that is, you know, irrational and all over the place. But it does, and when people see to me when I first kind of CO will get lonely and I probably didn't really quite

understood what that meant. And And whilst I don't think I've ever been lonely, I've been haven't been lonely, because I've been lucky to have some really great people around me that I trusted to be able to go and have a safe conversation with, to make sure that I was you know, heading in the right

direction. And if I wasn't, then I can change tech slightly because they gave me some really good, you know, advice or feedback, or, Hey, I could go and have a glass of wine with people who don't care what I do for a living and don't care what is facing me every day. They just know me, you know, from the girl that went to school that used to have a perm way back in the 80s. Right? And they, you

know, so they don't care. So, you know, find your thing and work out how you get out of that, you know, white hot heat of leading. And, you know, make sure that you have the self awareness to go and do it and take yourself out of those situations so that when you come back in, you can be focused and you can be come in with the right attitude and enthusiasm to to do the hard, you know, Mahi or the you know, make the tough decisions you need to make.

And I think it's something that Natalie touched on in terms of these a thirst and a dearth of, of good material, regardless of where you come at it from a woman and leadership point of view, or just leadership in general, but, you know, the basis for having these courageous conversations and these frank conversations, you know, I mentioned restructured before, because my opinion is that for a lot of leaders, a lot of boards, even a restructure is a very convenient way of you

know, supposedly reducing risk by not having to have tough conversations for people who just, you know, bottom line is not performing. What What's your playbook there? What are your thoughts around, you know, the basis for an individual conversation, and then probably the context there is, like, you hear a lot of CEOs saying, you know, there's a lot on at the

moment. And my view is, to your point earlier, CEOs paid a lot of money, and they have their respect and manner, and play because they have to make the calls and come with, you know, they're probably an extra, an extra sentence to that, which was, you know, there's a lot on at the moment, but we've chosen to prioritize this. And then to your point. And that means that, you know, we haven't focused on this. And that might be because we don't have the skills or the, or the capability, we thinks

right there. And that might involve some people being replaced. But if I boil it right, back down to the basics, again, you know, what are those sort of platform elements for you of having these these? You know, frank conversations?

dealing with. But then you pack that and put it in the in the back drawer, right. So that's your back pocket. So you know what that looks like, back and you put the person in front of you and the front of that conversation, because they are a human, they've got some, they've got to feed the family or pay the bills, or the mortgage, or

whatever it is. And so you know that the conversations, I'm going to be difficult in the third thing is they will not hear anything past, we need to make your position redundant, or we have a concern about your performance. Or, you know, because once they hear that, anything you say to them after that they will not hear. And so when you take the when you sort of start with those three things, that's a pretty good place, I think to start having the conversation, when you have

some EQ and empathy. It's a that tends to help the conversation. And I think ends up with a better outcome where you might need to have a person leave the organization, but they'll still leave it feeling trusted and respected, rather. And that's important. There is no doubt our labor laws at the moment are very challenging, and certainly sit in deeply in the employee space. Now, there's many situations with it. Absolutely right. But I do think it can make some of these conversations

more challenging. So in a more pragmatic way, having a commercial approach to a conversation, this is not working for both of us, he is a respectful exit package that enables you to continue to do the things that you need to do, but allows us to move on as well as a good way to go. Now not everyone's got a bottom line that allows them to do that. And not everyone when you work for government like I am at the moment that says Surely a great way to go about it. But I do think there's a balance in

there. Because the death by 1000 cuts is not fun for anyone.

they performed. And it just fascinates and frights and frightens me to see all sorts of people turning up in similar roles. way, clearly, it just hasn't. It hasn't been a strength of these for several roles. If you look back historically, but that sort of gets a little bit murky when you when you take that sort of trust and respect approach.

that comes along. I'm not sure that's really a particularly I'm seeing you're all sort of a different in middle management where people can learn and grow and change because the experience that they've had, but I think, I'm not sure that to your point restructuring, you know, is the way to go about it, because I don't think those you know, is a talked about at the top, you've got to show leadership, sometimes that comes with having difficult conversations and removing non

performing people from the business. And you have to do that in a way that's respectful to them, but it's also the right thing for the business.

right. And I think a lot of people actually evolve and grow to the point where they flip and feel, you know, some degree of disrespect, where the went frank conversations about what skills and capability they had been able to bring to a role and they didn't, you know, in hindsight, now, they feel like, I didn't have the opportunity to work on those things to become better at them, I just, you know, kind of, there was an easy path to, to solving the problem primarily for the organization.

to employees. And, you know, for, you know, sickness, many sporting organizations whose resources are very thin, that's not the reality of the world that they live in, but in bigger organizations that are really well funded and well supported, and have, you know, great people on culture teams, it has to be an important part of the support that we give, you know, many people are under huge pressure

at the moment post COVID. And, you know, mortgage rates going up and, you know, pressure with families and, you know, having a more holistic approach to looking after your staff and a more welfare well being approach, certainly in the long run, will be more beneficial for your culture. But you know, ultimately, if you've got an unformed we got to deal with them.

track. If I do actually keep keep doing this, which I'm enjoying, actually, and I don't know how many people listening but it's as this imposter syndrome element. Now, you talked about professional development. If there's one thing that I you know, I'm hearing more and more that really isn't well suited for many current sort of courses, or academia and so forth is just, you know, just how to address what seems to be an increasingly common challenge that people

have. And that's the way it sort of been rolled up as imposter syndrome. What are your thoughts?

it's hard, right? It's everyone's looking at you and you're going, I'm not sure where to go and how to use the toilet and use the toilet isn't find the toilet, and make a cup of coffee, but until we until our female, next level of female leaders in and female executives actually put themselves forward for opportunities with the confidence that they can do the job. Equally as well as in male colleagues, be it in a different way with a different approach.

And use will be a bunch of things that you don't know how to do. And you still be things that you need to ask people for help with. That's normal. There's nothing abnormal about

that. That's totally the way the world works, and have the confidence to step in and be really good at the things that you're good at and know that you're going to have to ask for help on the things that you're not so good at is part of the conversation and being nervous about how that feels and not lacking confidence in certain areas is something that we have to have an open canvas session about because if we can proliferate this conversation about imposter syndrome, the

female we will continue to struggle with gender diversity, that is just the reality of because you can create the opportunities. But if the female executives aren't prepared to walk through them, because they've got impostor syndrome, that's not very helpful. So I started the conversation normal nerves, not sure if it'll get traction, but I really think it's a conversation that we need to have

conversation. And I'd love to already invite you back at some stage perhaps to actually lead out with normal nerves and just some more thoughts around you know, the support and, and the thinking as you evolve that I think it's a fantastic way to to sort of drive some change, which, yeah, impostor syndrome, I think as well and truly done it's ships as a general sort of Calabria collection of a number

of challenges that we have. So thank you, Ryan Castle, I really value your friendship and really appreciate you taking the time to do this. You are of course, also an advisor to all things considered my eventual Andre Van De Mille. And I really appreciate that and the last word is yours and terms of what the good folks out there might might sort of hear from you as a final statements, as they wait for my appalling end music of

podcast. A little tip for you don't actually have to listen to that you just press the pause or stop or just kind of hit the crossness that's not there. But last word is yours.

unbelievably great people. And that's where I've done all my learning in there's different ways of approaching things and it doesn't always have to be by how the boxes heard or you know, there's it's called experience for a reason and you can see and learn from those people around you on any given day. That's certainly been my learning

journey. And I've been lucky to filled with some some great people, some great colleagues that I that I've turned into friends and for that I'm really appreciative