Pushkin.
The certainty I had was absolute. I don't want that. There was not a grain of doubt anywhere, you know.
Radio producer Helena de Grotte spent the majority of her life assuming she would never have kids. That As she got older, people's criticism of that choice started to intensify, and it left her unmoored.
Even as I was saying no, no, no, I don't want kids, on the inside, I thought there has to be something wrong with me for not wanting that.
On today's show, Navigating the Road Less Taken, I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies human behavior, and this is a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become in the face of a big change. When Helena was young and imagine her future, she pictured an apartment in a big, exciting city, a cool job, and weekends dancing at nightclubs. Children simply weren't in this picture, which wasn't an issue for Helena until she was in her twenties.
I love talking to strangers. I'd sit on the train or on the bus going somewhere and I would just start talking to the person next to me, and they'd be like, oh, you know, what are you doing? And I was probably still at university and they're like, oh, what are your plans after and you know, like, uh, do you want kids? And I'd be like, yeah, I don't think so. And I said, I don't think so
because I'd never thought, but I would do that. But every time this stranger, whoever they were, men, women, middle aged, older, thirty, you know, they would push back so hard and they would say some version of you're making a mistake, You're going to regret this, You're missing out on the greatest love that exists. So I think it's just in response to that that I became much more militant. The reaction is sort of what turns my ugh, I don't think so into a no.
You know, what were the reasons you found yourself giving to others about why you did not want kids?
Yeah? I think okay, So on the outside, right, I said no pretty consistently. But one of the things that made me unsure on the inside was the fact that if someone ask me why, I could never come up with a definitive answer. And my answer also changed depending on the day, you all, depending on how I was
feeling or what I was thinking about. Most that week, and so I always felt like I was lying a little bit, you know, because I would say something like, oh, you know, like I don't think I can combine that with the kind of you know, poorly paid work that is most interesting to me, or like I think I want to travel more, or there's like a lot of mental health issues in my family and I don't want
to pass that on. Every reason I gave I knew was not the reason, but it becomes calcified, like once you believe something about yourself, you find evidence for it everywhere, and so it made it hard for me to trust myself.
Yes, well, I think what you're describing illustrates that there is something very curious about the way we engage with this topic. How interesting is it that the burden of proof, if you will, the burden lies on the person choosing not to do something versus choosing to do something. I have so rarely heard someone ask anyone I know or me, why do you want kids? The default assumption is, of course you should want kids, no justification needed. Go forward.
We a society will celebrate you, and I don't know if that's true in other domains. Right, we would ask someone like why are you moving to this other country? Typically we interrogate action of some kind, proactive decisions, and yet this is one topic. This is one area of life that seems to be immune from that kind of scrutiny. Absolutely,
the marriage might be another example of this. Well, of course you want to get married, right, There are just certain social norms where we simply don't question that the default should be yes.
I think you're absolutely right that that is in general. How it is this said, I think for me I would respond with just that question, Oh, tell me why do you want kids? You know, And it wasn't really to be like contrarian or to hold up a mirror, you know, it was really just more like, oh, I am curious, though, tell me why is this something you
feel so strongly about. For instance, with my best friend Sigrid, who I met when I was in my early twenties, you know, we weren't at all ready to have kids, right, none of my none of our friends were at all in that stage yet. But she knew for certain that she wanted kids, and so yeah, she would push back and she would say, but you know, you have so much love to give, and like, I think you'd be great at it. But I would ask her and probe and you know, push her to explain herself just as well,
you know, like it was really very mutual. She already knew back then that she wanted to be a journalist, not exactly the best paid field or the most stable. So I would also ask her, like, are you not afraid that you just won't have the you know that it won't be possible logistically to be a journalist. You will need more money, you will need to be at home at more regular hours, you know, and like, aren't
you afraid? I just always felt like, once you have a kid, you have like an open wound, you know, and you have to trust the world. That's hard already to be good to this open wound, you.
Know, absolutely. And it's interesting too that you mentioned, you know, people say you have so much love to give, you'd be such an amazing mom. There's lots of things that each of us would be amazing at that we choose not to do.
And especially love, like that argument that I wouldn't get to experience, like the greatest kind of love. That's how everyone would put it. It was like a hierarchy, you know, the best one that kind of shook me the most. You know, when people would say something like that.
What did that do to your conviction? Did you question yourself? Did you think, oh my god, is there something wrong with me? Did you think I have to figure out a way to get comfortable having kids? Walk me through how you would respond to that kind of feedback.
Yeah, oh I would absolutely land on the question what is wrong with me? That is always what I concluded, you know, like there has to be something wrong with me for not wanting that. And this was not entirely baseless, you know, like one of the things that I found so astonishing about this decision to have kids is that you don't know what you're getting yourself into, you know, Like, you can read about it all you want. You can read an entire library of books about having children, you
can talk to everyone you know who has children. You will not know what it's like for you to be a parent until you do it, you know. And so the fact that people were doing it regardless, I thought
was so brave. And I always felt like I lack that bravery, Like I'm a little bit of a control freak, you know, I get really knocked off balance when I don't know there's like some last minute change or like all of a sudden someone suggests sort of like an impromptu trip, or I'm always like, oh no, no, if I don't have like advanced warning, like I'm not going to do it, you know.
Yeah, yeah, total.
And so I think that is what I thought about, you know, is the fact that I don't want kids just another example of me being led by my fears. And so that's why I thought, even as I was saying no, no, no, I don't want kids, on the inside, I thought there must be something wrong with me and I want to change that. Is that possible?
So if I'm hearing you correctly, what you're saying is you knew, and so many of us know. We're told this time and time again that parenthood is a transformative experience, right, It's impossible to predict who you will become on the other side of parenthood. And I agree with you. I think there is a lot of bravery involved in taking that leap. But what I'm hearing you say is I wasn't willing to gamble on that transformation.
Yeah right, yes, And I didn't like that about myself. I knew that I was missing out on a lot of good life by saying no to things almost by default, which I did do.
So I want to fast forward to when you're twenty eight. You have this whirlwind romance with this guy named David. You get married very quickly. You are very candid about the fact that you don't want kids. He understands that that is your reality, that is your preface. Several years into your marriage, you find yourself staring at a positive pregnancy test. Bring me back to that moment.
Even before I did the test, I knew it was very very early. There was just something different about my brain. You know. It's as if like all the hard edges of my cells had been filed down. And so I saw the result and I wasn't afraid, I wasn't shocked. It was confirmation of what I knew was true, and it was just such a there was a kind of blank in my mind because by that time David and I had been fighting so much for years about this topic, because I told him that I didn't want kids and
he had accepted that. But then very quickly after we got married, he started trying to convince me. And it was sort of light at first, and then ever more insistent you know, as we both got older, as he started thinking more about what is the point of life? You know, he started asking these really big questions, and for him, the answer was clear. The point of life is to have again. And so he became ever more insistent, and he pushed me so hard that I had to
push back very hard, and so I hardened. You know, I had become so inert. The certainty I had was absolute. I don't want that. It was almost like a fight that isn't a fight because you're not really having a conversation, You're just standing there entrenched in your position. And then I got pregnant, and it was such a reality check, like you can have opinions, you can have like a strong stance, and then there's your body having its own program, you know. And so it became all of a sudden
a very different thing. It became like it was no longer abstract. You know.
Tell me what it was like to tell David this news.
The moment I told him, I could see that he was trying to be a good man about this, you know that he like he said, like you know, oh, you know, and of course you know, this is your decision, you know, like your body your choice, Like he said
that literally, but his face said something completely different. He was like holding his hands in front of his mouth as he like, oh, and I could tell sort of between his fingers that he was just all lit up, you know, he was so immediately suffused with happiness and wonder and amazement and gratitude. And so in that moment, I felt like my attempt at rationality, you know, like let me go through the rubric one more time like bros and cons and let me then make a decision
and then inform him like it made no sense. And I just thought my reasons or my resistance or my fear, it doesn't matter. I felt like he was connected to some truth about life that I didn't understand. And so I felt like, well, if he feels it. And everyone says that as soon as you have a kid, you love them like you would take a bullet for that kid,
you know, like some you are transformed. I was like, I mean, probably that will happen, right, So in that moment, I just thought, I think I just have to give up just standing so firm in my conviction and just go with this incredible moment. So I said like, Okay, you know let's do it.
Tell me about the first week of your pregnancy.
The pregnancy immediately transformed me in a way that I didn't even know was possible. I control freak, you know, easily anxious. I was calm, and I was optimistic, you know, like usually, like I can really get into such a doom spiral when I open the newspaper, you know, like I cannot get it out of my head that everything is getting worse and will only get worse, like there are no breaks on my anxiety.
And sorry to interrupt that, I've heard you say that when people will tell you, Helena, you will love this child so much. Your experience with these doom spirals and the fact that you have a history of depression has led you to say, exactly, And so if I were to love this kid so much, why would I subject them to this life, to this planet.
Yes? Absolutely, that was so strong, Like either they will have depression too, right, because it's hereditary. Or they will be fine, but they will have a depressed mom okay, also not great. Or they will not be depressed. My medication will continue to work. I will not be depressed. And still there's all the stuff that's no one's fault, you know, just sickness or ordinary misfortune.
And given that backdrop, then how extraordinary for you to feel the opposite. Yes, during this moment.
I felt so capable, I really, you know, usually I feel like, wow, the world is so big and you have so little sway, right, Like what can you do? You can hold a sign and go protest, and you can you know, vote. It's so ridiculous how little power you have. And then I was pregnant, and it was almost as if my shoulders got broader and my back got straighter, and my feet seemed like more firmly planted on the floor. And I was really like, bring it on.
I can protect this child, you know. Sure the world that cannot change, not in the way that I would like, but I can make a home that's safe and loving, and I can give them the strength to face this world, you know, with integrity and bravery and love. I can do that. There was a way in which I didn't recognize myself, but I love this new self, and I was like, if the me who has the child is a me who can do it, then what's the problem, right? The me who doesn't want to have a child is
like it doesn't. She doesn't exist anymore, so we don't have to worry about her anymore. You know, this new one is totally capable.
So what happened next?
You know, there was something a little sad about feeling so great, because I was like, wait, this is how a lot of other people feel all the time, you know, like they feel like, oh, life is a gift, and you know, every day is another opportunity to do something beautiful, you know. And and sure things are bad right now, you know, politically, but yeah, you know, maybe by the time my kid is growing up, you know, things will be better and we'll have a more beauty full society.
I was like, wow, people, there are people who go through life like that. Yeah, duh, that they would want to have a kid, you know, of course.
Yeah.
And so when I felt that way, I thought, Okay, welcome yourself. Thank God for this change. I'm not going to dwell on the fact that I've not always had this. I'm just gonna run with the fact that I have this new chance, I have this new lease on life, you know, and I can be the person who is fit to be a mom. And then that changed this feeling of competence and calm I think lasted for about two weeks and then there was like a steep cliff. It just the hormones changed or I don't know what happened.
You know, I felt, yeah, like my brain was back to how it always is, you know, I got afraid again.
After the break, Helena makes a decision that changes everything. We'll be back in a moment with a slight change of plans. Helena's first week of pregnancy was not at all what she expected. She experienced a lightness, a newfound confidence about her ability to parent children in an uncertain world. But that sense of peace and hopefulness didn't last, and she found herself questioning again whether to go through with the pregnancy.
You know how like when you do drugs and you're having such a good time and then the next day it's almost as if you have to pay for it, you know, like the Yeah, the size of my happiness is now the size of my Like.
I appreciate, I appreciate that you think that I've done drugs. I've never even had alcohol. So that's what you're working with here. Okay, great, I can appreciate intellectually what you're describing. The comedown.
Yeah, the colmdown exactly. It was almost as if I had a come down, you know, the hormones left, and I wasn't just dropped into my previous anxious self. I was dropped into like that Helena on overdrive.
Wow, so you were totally catastrophizing, almost in an irrational way, right your brain? Yeah, full on rumination OCD yes, intrusive thoughts.
Oh, absolutely, Yeah.
What did you decide to do now that you felt you had reverted back to old Helena with old Helena's preferences but actually magnified because of all the anxiety and all of the intrusive thoughts.
Yeah, I don't think i've I've ever been as terrifying, because it's like before, when I was just thinking about it, right before I was pregnant, it was like I don't want to have a kid, you know, it was about me, But now I was so acutely aware of my decision will affect not just me but this new person. Yes, am I equipped? Yeah? You know this feeling of like, oh I'm capable right, Like my feet are so firmly planted in this oil. I can take care of this
kid that was gone. And I felt my own powerlessness to protect them. Yeah, and I really thought this is, you know how like I'm always so when something terrible happens, whether that is like a grandparent dying or you know,
war being declared. But then you see the parents how they try to shield their kids, and if they cannot shield them, still try and create a little pocket of normalcy, Like parents swallow their own fears and repress their tears so that they might give a safe pocket for their kid. And I felt incapable of doing that. I thought, I am terrified myself. I will not be able to repress my fear so that I can make sure my child is not afraid. I'm not going to be able to
do that. And a child deserves better than that. A child deserves a parent who can protect them. So I decided to have an abortion. And I had such mixed feelings, you know, about having an abortion myself. It really wasn't something I did lightly, and especially because I knew how much it would hurt David.
Yeah, I mean it's so interesting, as you know, I have a whole chapter at the end of my book devoted to my own journey toward motherhood and then slightly away from motherhood, and in all of the complexities, and I I do think society tells us we should always try to conquer our fears, and I think there are truly limits on that. And I just I just think that fear is instructive. Right, Your fears were valid and instructive, they were saying, Helena, I have history of depression. I'm
having acute anxiety. I'm not sure that I have the right emotional constitution to be a parent. And I think there is actually something deeply brave in surrendering to that reality rather than resisting it, given how strong the forces are to try and quote conquer it, resist it. So yeah, I just want to say, like the the recognition of one's own limits is another form of bravery. Maybe that's what I'm trying to say.
It's so moving to hear you say that. No one has ever put it like that, and I definitely have never thought that. I've always seen it as a version of capitulating, of giving up. But you know it's so often said, right, well, what if you had a physical disability, like what if you had Huntington's disease? Would you chastise yourself in the same way? Would you be like, oh, it's just you know, if only you wouldn't give up, you know.
Yeah, if you were missing a uterus, you wouldn't engage in the kind of self puration. I just think we have an unfair standard when things creep into the psychological, then we think, oh, it's a totally malleable space. You can fully control your thoughts, you can fully overcome this, this is a workable problem. Psychology is biology. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's constraints, and I just.
Feel like, wow, if your mind can be so reality shaping, that is reality. Even if it's not other people's reality, it is for you.
Yeah. How did David respond to your decision to terminate the pregnancy.
David is not someone who talks about his feelings a lot. I mean he will tell me like I want to have a child, but there's not like that deep introspection.
And so I could see that he was struggling. I could see that, you know, he wasn't eating properly anymore, and he wasn't like he's usually like always ready for an adventure, you know, very kind of embodied, you know, would always be like on his bike or surfing or you know, just so full of joy and you know, lust for life, you know, and that just started eroding. His shoulders started getting hunched, you know, his complexion was gray, he was losing weight. It was really as if like
the light in his eyes was being dimmed. You know. It was so terrible to see, and I felt guilty.
Of course.
I also felt afraid to sort of push and pro because I knew it was because of what I had done, you know, and it's horrible to hurt the person that you love the most. But then he took like a turn for the better, you know. He started taking care of himself again, started eating, started working out. He was back,
you know, and I was so happy. I really thought that was such a hard period and we've come through it and he and he's probably sort of made peace with it and rediscovered like how much good there is in our relationship. And that's when he told me. We were lying in bed one night and he and he I seriously, we had just had a party. I was so happy, you know, I really thought, like this is a new chapter. You know, what can possibly shake us now if we've survived this. And then he told me, like,
I can't do this anymore. I know that I want to have a kid. I have to go try this. I understand that you don't want it, like I see now that I will never be able to convince you. I have to go try. Yeah, and that was it. We were in New York. He took the plane to California, where he's from the next day, and that was that.
Not everyone has had to face this kind of incompatibility, but I think there's probably so much that's universal about this, where there are trade offs and sacrifices intentions in any relationship. And I wonder what it felt like for you to lose this relationship.
Yeah, I mean it shattered my world, you know. I thought we had come out the other end. I thought, Wow, we're so strong together now, and all of a sudden he was gone and I was alone. I was so angry with myself, like was it really worth this, you know, like this, this stupid, stubborn decision, this fear, really more important than being in this relationship with this person that you love so much and who loves you. Yeah, you know.
And I just.
After that, I was so determined to get to the bottom of why, and to get to the bottom of do I have to accept who I am? You know? Can I change and It's not like I was thinking, can I I want to try and want to have a child. Like it was not like that, you know, It's just more like, you know how like sometimes you can just be so tired of being yourself. You know.
Of course this is such an interesting part of your story, Helena, because what I've observed from this windy path that you've taken is your repeated willingness to challenge your own convictions throughout this journey. And I know there's such an exhaustion that accompanies in decision It feels so tempting to just you know, we had a professor on a slight change
of plans. You talked about how exhausting decision making can be and how we actually often defer our decision making to others in an effort to eliminate any of the psychic stress that comes along with decision making. And I wonder there would have been such a simplicity in you just you know, planting your flag and saying from the time that you were twenty one, right when you started getting asked this question, I'm not going to have kids? What gave you the energy to keep the interrogation alive?
Do you see yourself as someone who is open minded in this way, who's open to seeing their belief shift.
Mmmm hmm. I'm thinking of the best way to answer this question. There are a few things here. One of them is I have this conviction that if only I throw enough effort at a thing, I will be able to get to the bottom of it. Also, like you know, I'm a very curious person. I've made curiosity my job. I'm always taught talking to strangers and trying to find out how do you live? How do you deal with pain?
You know, and despair? Where do you find beauty? And you know, I've been making radio stories for like fifteen years. I've talked to I don't even know how many people, thousands probably, And always the real question that I have no matter what we talk about, you know, whether it's like the Civil War and me and mar or it's like a poetry collection you know, about someone you know falling in love for the first time. My real question underneath everything is always, how is it that you want
to keep living? What is your recipe? And I haven't found the answer yet, yeah, because there is no one answer, obviously, you know. But I feel like if only I have a whole library of answers. I will be able to do it, which is such a joke because I haven't found the answer yet, but I am doing it so clearly. It's some kind of illusion or you know, like a story that I tell myself, you know, but it's a story that keeps me, that keeps me looking, and that keeps me alive.
It's been many years since you and David ended your relationship over this. I'm so curious to know what your thoughts are on the topic of motherhood today.
Yeah. First, I'm so happy with my decision. I really I love the life that I've built, you know, And I have finally realized that you can be happy with your decision not to have kids and still wonder sometimes what if and still have that ache sometimes like would
I have loved this more than my current life? And I have come to a place of peace with that, Like, not every moment of doubt or not every moment of ache means that you have to like throw throw everything away, you know, like you can actually be like every life includes things that you know, I have a little sting in them, and that's okay. And I think because of that, because I'm at peace with my decision not to have kids, I am more than ever in awe of parents crazy
about kids. You know, my friends are having kids now, you know, Like my closest friends are all star to have kids. And I cannot tell you, Maya how happy it makes me that I get to be a part of that. Like I'm not their mom, you know, but I am someone to them, and I am someone to their parents, you know. Like one friend calls me auntie, you know, which is so sweet. Yeah. I hadn't ask
for this, you know. Yeah, and some of them it's not not like they have a name, but I get to, you know, hear about the most intimate stories you know, of like the insanity that they feel when they're awake at you know, four am, with their kid, not having slept for months, you know, through the night and the dark thoughts that they have. I feel like they see me as a safe person, you know.
Who can uniquely be there for them, giving your sider lens.
Yeah, and it feels like such a privilege to be there for them. I still get sad, you know. One of the things that makes me sad is so I love languages. I speak a few, and I've always wanted to be there for a kid's language development and the thought of having had a bilingual kid, you know, like, ah, I won't get to see any of that, and that makes me sad.
What do you do with that sadness? So do you interrogate it? Do you let it resurface this question as an open one yet again? Do you sort of have a lid on it and just say, Okay, I'm feeling sad. I'm just going to let the sadness pass. It's a feeling that's going to coexist with my choice. Yeah, how do you think about engaging with the sadness when it comes?
Yeah, I'm I'm actually grateful for the sadness. Huh.
Now wait, tell me more.
Like before, the sadness would like throw me off balance and make me think like I must be wrong about everything, you know, And now I think No, the sadness is born out of curiosity, It's born out of love, out of empathy, imagination. You know, it's a sign of all these beautiful things, you know, Like, it's not a it's not a it's not a defo. How do you say, do you speak French like it's.
Not a do you think I do drugs. You think I speak French? You really provestigate me?
Why you are? You are so talent? You know everything else? So like sorry that I just hate on the two things that you don't know how to do. Like, oh, like, it's not a character flaw, you know, Like, there's nothing wrong with me for having pain. It's it's a it's a sign that I'm alive, you know.
And that you can have complicated emotions about a decision that.
Yeah, And that I can see the beauty in something that I haven't done. That's okay, right, Imagine that everything we haven't done you have to then sort of pretend as if that's the only good way to live and everyone else is wrong. Like, ugh, you know that would be not great.
So many of the conversations I host on this podcast are about the fact that we as humans so desperately seek cognitive closure. We want black and white answers. We want definitive, clear explanations for things and reasons, and like you said, the pro con list that fully computes, and it is very uncomfortable for us to live comfortably in the gray space. And from what I've gathered from your story, you were searching for that definitive answer for so long.
It's why you were on this crazy roller coaster where every peak and valley was what's wrong with me? And how can I? Can't I just figure this shit out?
Right?
Like, can't I even just figure this situation out? And yet now when I hear you talk, you've clearly experienced an evolution of sorts, which is you have found peace in basically knowing the answer, but not one hundred percent
knowing the answer. And so I would love for you to share any wisdom or advice you have for listeners who are like I want to get to the Helena place mentally, maybe either deciding between taking a new job or leaving a relationship or moving to another country or any other massive life decision, and they're the type of person that is worried about feeling massive regret in either direction.
Yeah, I think the furthest that you can get is to get comfortable with discomfort, Like it will be discomfort forever. I don't think comfort is the thing that you should look for, you know. I think pain is there forever. Yeah, and hopefully you can make the pain a little smaller and a little less, uh, you know, earth shattering right where every time you have to go back to the drawing board.
You know, was there a moment in time that you can remember where you first realized that the path forward would not could not involve full clarity, but would need to require some at a minimum low grade discomfort all the time.
Yes, yes, it was in conversation. So I made this whole podcast, write eight episodes. I worked on this for three years. Yeah, and the state of purpose of this podcast was I'm going to figure this out and put the issue to bed once and for all. That was it. You know, it was like, oh, I can up stand doing this for the rest of my life, you know, like there are other interesting topics in the world are Yeah, And for this podcast I talked to so many people,
people I knew well, people I didn't. And it was actually someone I didn't know well who got me there. And it was I think because they didn't know me well, you know, like they didn't have a stake in my life at all, you know, they could sort of say it as it is, yeah, because that's not a thing that people like to do, you know. They like to protect your feelings and they're like, you know, especially people who love you, right, and what he said, was you
will be disappointed either way, and I laughed. I was like, oh that's you know, like I'm with you, like that's sort of the glass half empty kind of way of looking at life, Like I share that. But he was like, no, no, no, no, no, this is not like this is not a glass half empty situation. This is reality. Here's the thing, he said, we only get to live life once, but we get
to question it as much a team time. Exactly. It isn't a number of times, right, There's no limit to how much we can question our life, but we can only live it once. And it was like that, like it's almost you know, like anything that is like so wise, you know, it's as completely obvious the moment that you hear it, right.
It has to land at that particular moment. Yes, and someone's ready to receive it. Sounds like you're ready to receive that.
And I think it showed me that I had been asking the wrong question. Yeah, you know that the question that I had been asking was what do I want? You know? And I think the question that I should have been asking is what can I live with? You know? And those are different, Like I love that one has like a definitive answer like I want the you know, but like what can I live with is sort of an acknowledgement that you can want different things. You can
want things that are mutually exclusive. You can want them all and maybe you want one more and one just a little bit, you know, and so you just have to This is also what I came to, like, you can waste your life doubting. You can really do that forever, and that's not a way to spend your life. So I think for me, that feeling of peace right that I have reached, it's a decision. It's not something that like,
oh I woke up feeling one day, you know. It's a decision to do every day again, you know, and like every day that I have or every time that this little like ooh ouch, you know I'm missing out on this. Every time that that comes up, I feel it. I let it envelop me and then you're like, Okay, I think I can live with it.
Hey, thanks so much for listening. Helena made an eight part podcast series called Creation Myth about her decision of whether or not to have kids. We'll link to it in the show notes and join me next week when I talk to Professor Sonya Lubermirski about how we can feel more loved in our lives.
Most people think to feel more loved, I need to change myself. I need to make myself more lovable. Or I need to change the other person. I need to convince them to love me more. But it's actually not the right approach. You don't have to change yourself, you don't have to change the other person. You just have to change the conversation.
That's next time. On A Slight Change of Plans, I'll see you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Alexandra Garratin, our editor Daphne Chen, our lead producer Megan Lubin, our associate producer Sonia Gerwitt, and our sound engineer Erica Huang. Luis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals.
A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, So big thanks to everyone there, and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.
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