The Woman Who Changed Warlord Joseph Kony’s Mind

face to face with a notorious warlord. She met up with him in an effort to broke her peace in Northern Uganda, a part of the country that was plagued by violence and war. Those moments when I felt really, really scared, and I didn't want to show that I was very scared, but I was deep down in my heart my goodness, if only they knew. But on the surface, I was very calm, very smooth. Begged my voice not to tremble any moment. And what language do I deploy?

A motherly language because maybe and maybe that can touch his heart and soul and look at me as a protector as opposed to an enemy, that he begone. Based story is as much about changing the world as it is a personal story of change. On today's episode, one woman's approach to unlocking peace in the enemy. I am maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become in the face of a big change. Betty's story unfolds

in the nineteen eighties in Uganda. That's when the country's president Yuwari msseveny asked Betty to take on a seemingly impossible mission in northern Uganda, where war had broken out. Betty was a government minister at the time, and Museveni wanted her to try and persuade rebels to put down their weapons and bring an end to the violence. Betty was aware of the profound danger that might lie ahead

for her. She had no formal training in conflict resolution, and Joseph Coney, the rebel leader responsible for so much violence in the north, was a crazed warlord. He enslaved women and girls and abducted tens of thousands of children and turned them into child's soldiers to fight his war. So, when Museveni asked Betty to go on this dangerous mission and leave behind her young family in the safety at home,

she wanted to know why was he choosing her. He said, well, I just need somebody that I can trust, that can tell the people of northern Uganda to persuade their children to put down their weapons. And Betty, why did you agree to say yes to this? I mean it was incredibly dangerous situation that you were entering into. Well, first of all, you must know our mentality. I was at the time already a government minister. How dare you say no to your president when he instructs you to do something.

So I felt there for then that I had to do it. I had a lot of fear deep down in my heart. Plus I also I had small young children. My daughter was just about two years old, and so here I was as to go and in a war zone. You know, I feel like you're not giving yourself enough

credit for the decision that you made. And the reason I say that is you know, you had been asked, you'd been appointed a minister by the president, and you actually resigned from that particular job because you felt it was an action oriented enough right, that you were basically just pushing paper, and that you really wanted to get in the trenches and make as big a difference as

you possibly could. Maybe my resignation at that time did contribute to this in the sense that I went to him and I said, look, I cannot do crossword puzzle in the office, neither can I do Can I read novels like I see other people do? I want work and if you cannot give me real work, then I'm out of here. And African ministers don't resign. So it was kind of a shock to him to hear somebody threatening to resign because I had all this energy and

desire to perform. You know, many of your friends called this a suicidal mission and they urged you to reconsider your choice. Well, there were people who said, look, he wants you did why should he pick you, a woman young at the time with a young family, to go and do this. So there were lots of discouraging talks. But I must also add in here that there had been wars in Uganda, had gone through wars and other civil strife, but I had never been assigned the responsibility

to bring it to an end. So that kind of in a way inspired me too. If I can go and end this conflict and my people can go back home, get away from squalid comes and leave indignity, even if it's poverty. But like any other person. I set myself a deadline that I must end this war in six months low and behold, when I got there, it was a completely different story. Betty moves to Kulu, one of the largest cities in Northern Uganda, to meet the people

there and figure out how to end the violence. Since Northern Uganda had been Betty's home, she thought she would be well respected. But when she arrives at the camps in Gulu as a government official, she's met with a very different response. I was dismissed by many people at first. Of all, there were those who said, well, she's never faced the gun, so she will run away. It won't be long before she runs away. There were those who say it, well, I mean the same story. Why a woman,

this is a male domain. She cannot do anything. So in African community, when a woman is given such responsibility, she must be a girlfriend. You don't earn it, there must be some kind of relationship between you. So there were those who felt, well, nobody goes to that place anyway, not even government our officials. So probably he just wanted her way where he can have access to her any time. I also had inferior to complex inferiority complex that nobody

knew me, nobody knew my family. My family was not one of those prominent families that were known. So reaction was wish she who is this ah? And I still remember one elder saying that, well, if miss Severne wanted to end the war, he could have appointed somebody from a prominent family and not an nonentity whom nobody knew where she came from. The only thing I had on my side was that I had gone to the best

schools in the country. I had graduated from university. Just the fact that I had to introduce myself who I was was not an easy exercise. I'd like to hear about what it was that you were confronted with in those first few days in northern Uganda. Can you set the scene for people who might not know what the state of affairs was like? What I was confronted with voice was really traumatizing was going into these quality camps and finding people living in a situation that is difficult

to describe. But what even traumatized me more was to find people who were immaginated children, little babies suckling breasts from mothers who had no milk whatsoever, not even water. You could see their heads, you could see the count their ribs. Sometimes the number of children who were dying was just I couldn't even count them. And I'd never come face to face with people starving to death. So

that was spiritually wrenching. And probably I could say that this really inspired me too, that it has to come to an end. And when I walked into the camps, it gives people some hope that they is somebody, an official of the government, who probably will talk to government so that we can get food, so that she could talk to the international community, so that we could get

some means of livelihood. You know, you mentioned that you were met with a lot of skepticism, right, yes, How do you work to build credibility and trust in the people that you were interacting with. I developed a culture of not lecturing to people that people I had grievances they needed to talk. I encourage to them. I said, if you want to insult me, go ahead and do it. If you want to insult the president, do it anything.

But what I want is to bring peace. So I would sit and listen and listen for hours, and the most important thing to build that trust for people to realize that you're serious. You're there for them, to mourn with them, to grieve with them, and not just stay in town, but go and stay in the camps with them, so that when they're hungry, you're so hungry you're not going to take something special for yourself. And this was very instrumental in confidence building and trust building by the people,

because then I demonstrated some kind of seriousness. Then people think, okay, if she can stay with us in the camp and it what we're eating, then she must be committed. I was very determined to prove my metal. That's decision to stay at the various camps carries unbelievable risk. The camps were scattered all over the region and rebels were routinely raiding them and murdering civilians. I went through land mines

planted for me. A pickup truck that was carrying civilians was blown up, and I still remember vividly picking up a three year old baby where the mother was killed by the landmine and picking up this baby and other wounded people. And of course, the other thing which was very traumatizing was that each time the rebels attacked a camp to abduct and kill people. I had to be

the first person on the scene. The most painful thing where was mothers, parents running to me and say, please save our children have been abducted, Our loved ones have been killed. Could you help to bury them? And the painful thing was I knew I could not save them, but I had to give them hope. You want them to continue to be resilient. That he spends close to a year living among the people at the camps, working to build trust with civilians and key players in the region.

But there's one person that he has yet to meet face to face, the rebel leader Joseph Coney. Coney was the leader of the Lord's Resistance Army or l R, and he believed that he received messages directly from God. With Coney in charge, the LRA committed countless atrocities against the people of Northern Uganda, including murder, beatings, abductions, mutilations, and wraith. Betty, what had you heard about Joseph Coney

at that time? Horrible things. I'd seen people whose lips had been cut, noses have been cut, ears have been chopped off, private parts cut off. This monster, I'd heard a lot about him. There were a few people who managed to escape and would tell me what kind of person he was. They all believed that he had supernatural power, that he was talking to go directly, and whatever he

predicted did car did happen later. I'd also heard from some of the wives the girls who had been captured, and he would have shall be crude and say sex with at least six in one night. So I'd heard all these horrible stories about him. So in my mind, was this monster that you even think sometimes he had Houns. Yeah, at one point you received a death threat from Connie's army. Yes, and the letter said that the rebels were going to

kill you, right, I still have that letter. The letter came barely two months after I had been in and was that get out of here as soon as possible. If you don't, we're going to kill you. This is a male domain, So if you don't get out of here, we have a way of getting you. We know where you stay and we can follow you anywhere. And when you saw the content of the letter, what led you to stay? Ah One in institution like that, you don't want to show that you're a coward. That's one. Two.

Having seen what I had seen, How could I desert and live children dropping dead like flies? How could I desert people who were dying of treatable diseases. It would be highly immoral. In fact, I still remember one meets the one a public rally I went for in one of the camps, and as I was talking, the bodyguards I went with came to me and said, the rebels approaching. And I could see people around me slowly disappearing, and I could see also the soldier government troops were terribly scared.

But I told them if we run away, what message is it going to send to the rebels. Of course, my heart was beating like crazy, about to pop out of my chest, but I had to exhibit courage at that point in time. So I told them We're going to go, but we're going to move very very slowly, so that it does not send a message of panic to the population, because tomorrow it will be all o our places that Betty run away from the rebels. How would it be perceived then the next time? How can

I face people again if I did that. Betty's work to establish herself as a leader and to build trust in the community proves effective. She's tipped off to the fact Coney might be located somewhere nearby, But rather than flee, Betty decides she wants to engage with Coney directly. She sends him a letter and addresses him in a rather

unique way. You know, it says so much to me about the nature of your peacemaking that when you reached out to Coney, you referred to him as your son, and you appealed to your united belief in the same God. And look, Betty, it was extremely effective because that led him to initiate a direct meeting with you. Is that right? Right? At that time, what I wanted to find out would be stalk be possible, and so my approach was then meeting and trying to understand he's mindset. Betty's approach works.

Coney agrees to meet her face to face, more than sixteen miles deep in the jungle. She's told she can bring six people with her as long as none of them are armed. So I thought of who the six people I could take with me, knowing how dangerous it was, I even contemplated taking poison with me, because just in case it became very dangerous, I didn't want to be tortured I'd rather get myself killed instantly. So I went to religious leaders. Since he has this fanatic religious belief.

So I went to the Castolic bishop. Was it fantastic, will come with you. I went to the Anglican bishop. We said we need peace, will come with you. I went to the Muslim and I said, I want two two two of each. That was two weeks before, and please please, nobody must tell anybody about this mission. And they all promised nothing would happen. But in the day finally arrives all of them cancel. The Catholic bishop sent me a letter and say it we pray for you.

It's time to bring peace, but we cannot come with you. Good be with you. The Anglican escaped to compele A city. The Muslim said, I have darya, I have malaria. I can't come with you. So that moment in time, I was very scared. So I debated within myself do I abort this mission or do I go. Eventually I wrote to my family, this is going to happen. I may not make it back, wrote to President of seventy said mays,

children must get educated. And then I set off, knowing how dangerous it was Betty makes her way through the jungle, and she knows she's being watched. Tony's soldiers are hidden throughout sum up in trees, monitoring her movements. You had all these child soldiers. Obviously AK forty seven was too heavy for them and too tall, too tall for them, And yet one was behind me, one in front, one

on left and right side of me. Ah. Suddenly I'm walking, and one elderly man popped out with sheer butter oil oliver and splash it all over me, reciting something. If you have bad intentions, can this wash this away so that you don't hurt us. So at that point in time, I stopped and I said what is this you're doing? And one of their another commander, popped out and said, oh, please forget this. They don't know what is going on.

We want these pistocks to succeed. Please persevere. So I continued, and then out of nowhere another one pops out and holds me by my neck, and again I said, I am not going anywhere. If you want to kill me, you can now kill me. Here Again, another commander comes and persuades me. Now we are not very far from the venue. Please let's continue the big man that would call him will be coming soon. And it was just I was totally overwhelmed. There was jumping, there was shouting,

there was screaming that the demon is coming out. There was laughter from some distance. Then finally he comes in. So I go like, I want to shake hands with him, and I'm pushed away. You can't shake hands because you're not a friend, you are an enemy, so please go back. Then he introduced his senior commanders. We said whatever they

wanted to say. Then eventually it was him. We started talking and he talked for about four hours that first meeting, and then I responded very briefly, basically praising God, speaking the same language as him. Then what happened was because bestead late, it was dark. All we could see where fireflies. Then he decided said we haven't concluded anything. We haven't even started talking, so you're not going anywhere. You're going to spend the night here so that tomorrow we can

resume the talks early in the morning. Again, my heart was about to burst to come out of my chest, but I kept very calm and I said, again, this is God's which God is great. However, I want you to know that I am your mother, but I'm also a government official. Now, if government soldiers wait for me on the other side and I don't show up, they will think this problem. They will storm this place and fighting will break out and we'll probably will all die,

and then there will be no more pistocks. So he said, you're right, we have consulted. You're right. That could happen again. I said, praise God, your fantast good is fantastic. Allelujah. Amen, this is now. You have to be to act like your obsess too. Amen, this is fantastic. And in my heart, what is coming next? Eventually he said, you're right, you

can go. We'll be back in a moment. With a slight change of plans, Betty Begombey manages to make it out at that first meeting with Joseph Coney alive, and she goes on to meet with him five more times over the next year and a half, and even though he's responsible for countless atrocities, Betty chooses not to treat him like the enemy. You've mentioned that you focused on using the language of a mother rather than of a militant when you engage with him. Do you mind sharing

more about that choice? I mean I must have taken I guess my question is motivated by the idea that you're sitting in front of this monstrous human and you're trying to maintain your composure, but you seem to have also had the cognitive wherewithal to be strategic in the way that you were interacting with him. And so I'm just trying to dig into that a bit more. If I could you, my son, then that means I'm going to protect you. A mother cannot be a danger to

her child or children. A mother will provide protection. So the whole thing was here, I am your mother. Well, all I want is for you to be safe, and people to be safe, and people to live in dignity. So those moments when I felt really, really scared, and I didn't want to show that I was very scared, but I was deep down in my heart, my goodness, if only they knew. But on the surface, I was very calm, very smooth, begged my voice not to tremble

any moment. And what language do I deploy? A motherly language because maybe and maybe that can touch his heart and soul and look at me as a protector as opposed to an enemy. Betty continues to connect with Coney on a personal level, and in doing so, she makes great progress towards peace. She's so successful that Coney ends up calling her mummy Bigombe, and remarkably, one year after that first meeting deep in the jungle, Coney agrees to

enter into peace talks. A date and venue to sign a peace agreement are agreed upon, and Betty rushes to President Museveni to tell him the news. But Museveni has changed his mind and cancels the continuation of the peace process, opting for a military solution instead. Coney and his rebel army respond by attacking a small village and killing hundreds of people. I was so totally traumatized by the killing, the massacre that took place of innocent people. I was

so heartbroken. That was niceeen ninety four, Betty ends up stepping away for some time. She says she needs some breathing space, some distance from the tragedy that's just occurred. Betty ends up joining the World Bank, but just as she's getting ready to leave on a work trip in two thousand and four, she catches a glimpse of a CNN segment that shows scenes of the continued violence taking

place in Northern Uganda. Here was CNN breaking news. The Lord's Resistance army went into a camp in Northern Uganda, killed over three hundred people, somewhere hacked to death, somewhere shot dead as they were running away. Here I am getting ready to travel this breaking news. The only person who almost ended the war was Betty Bobe. She met the rebel leader. She did as I did that on CNN. I couldn't believe it. So I thought this was a calling.

I'm going back. I'm quitting my job. So I did, returned in two thousand and four and initiated another round of peastocks. And I went and told President mis Sevine, but please, this is true, said crazy group without any clear political ideology. But we have to talk to them. Astonished to your image because it is believed that you don't want to want them in the war. Put yourself in the shoes of the parents in Northern Uganda whose children get abducted and they helplessly cry and look, and

some of them lose their children. Forever. You love your children, they also love their children. The grandparents in Northern Uganda are in scholid calms. The elders have lost their dignity. They're not like your father is living in dignity. Put yourself into that shoes. Lets have no problem. Please, if you can reach out to them, do And so with mis seventies Blessing, Betty attempts to restart the peace process

with the LRA. Those negotiations ultimately break down, but Betty's work helps the government set the stage for more successful peace talks. A year later, and although the agreement is never signed, the LRA agrees to give up nearly all their weapons in land and considerably shrinks down in size. I think what's so important about your story, Betty, is that it speaks to incremental progress. You're absolutely right. It's about having that determination that it can happen. It must happen,

but it takes a lot. There will be challenges. You run, you fall down, you get up and start again, and you fall down. And that is very typical of all conflict resolution exercises. When people have when blood has been shared, when this deep seated distrust, when so much negative things have gone under the waters, it's not something that you'll say shake hands now your brother and sister, you can now go home and live together, happy, happy ever after. Pert. Yeah,

one final question for you. Um. We've we've talked today about how it is that you change the world, and I want to know how the set of experience has changed you. Oh it really has. Um. I want to be where there is a war. When I see on television screen children in yem in Syria, the women, I want to be there. Maybe I cannot end the conflict, but give them hope. Maybe they're ways of saving lives of people, and maybe reaching out the factions and trying to talk to them some kind of sense. Maybe I

can give some people ideas. Hey, thanks for listening. Join me next week. When I talked to Chaparral Wells, a mother from Chicago whose son Courtney Copeland was murdered, Chaparral launched her own investigation to find out what actually happened in his final moments. It wasn't by choice. I had no other option. I needed to know why and I needed to know how, how did these things occur? What happened? And I had to try to uncover whatever I could.

A Slight Change of Plans is created written an executive produce by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes Tyler Greene, our senior producer, Jen Guerra, our senior editor, Ben Taliday, our sound engineer, Emily Rostek our associate producer, and Neil Lavelle, our executive producer. Louis Skara wrote our

theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, So big thanks to everyone there, including Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, Lee Tall Mulatt and Heather Fame and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow us Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week