Pushkin, Hey, slight Changers. I cannot believe the Olympics are over. I am in total denial over here, as I've been tuning in most evenings to watch the coverage this Olympics. I followed so many sports, but there was one athlete in particular that I was very excited to watch, and that's US track star Gabby Thomas. I actually interviewed Gabby on A Slight Change of Plans back in twenty twenty one,
and she absolutely crushed it in Paris. So she won her first individual gold medal in the two hundred meter race and then went on to win two more gold medals in team relay races. When I spoke with Gabby on the show after her Olympic debut in Tokyo, she was incredibly open about her young life and her complicated relationship with track and field. She defied many of the stereotypes I had around what someone has to be like
in order to become an Olympian. Gabby's thoughtful reflections really embody the spirit of A Slight Change of Plans, and they struck me even more powerfully after her wins in Paris. I really hope you enjoyed this conversation. When I first heard about Gabby's ascent in track and field, I assumed her relationship with running was a relatively straightforward, one passion at an early age match with a singular focus. But
that wasn't the case. I discovered that Gabby had competing interests and as a result, her focus was pulled in different directions over the course of her life, especially during her time as a Harvard undergrad, and this tension has led Gabby to continually question which path she to take. At times, She's even considered whether she should quit track altogether.
And so, because the show is all about how we navigate those big inflection moments in our lives, I thought we could learn a lot from Gabby's story of change. I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become in the face of a big change. So I'd love to start by going all the way back to your childhood. I think one thing a lot of people might not know about your story is that growing up you had no interest in being an athlete, right you wanted to
study neurobiology. And I'm wondering if you can tell me more about your family and how it led you down that path.
In terms of going into neurobiology, that came from very personal experiences within my own family and just seeing how my brothers who are neuro atypical and who they are and how they navigated life. One of my younger brothers has autism. He has Aspergers and he was diagnosed at the age of four, I believe, and just watching how he navigates the world and how the world isn't exactly built for him, but he's so special and amazing in
his own way. And then I have my twin brother who just battled Adhd I believe he was diagnosed at eight, and going through that and going through the school system and having to deal with that and having things not really be adopted towards you, but you know, they have to adapt towards the world.
That they're living in.
So at the end of the day, at this point, I decided that I wanted to study the nervous system and just explore that area.
And I'm wondering, Gaddy, was there a specific moment in your life where you thought, Okay, this is what I have to do with my life.
Yeah, there was definitely a moment when I was in high school, this random morning getting ready for school, My mom, my twin brother, and I were all in the kitchen, sitting at the kitchen table, just getting ready like we normally do.
I was fixing a bowl of cereal.
My brother was just grabbing his backpack getting ready to go, and my mom had asked him if he had taken its medication for school that day, and he said no, And of course, you know, she's thinking, well why not, because this is your normal. We should be taking medication so that you can go and focus. Then he had mentioned that he could not take the side effects anymore,
he didn't like how it made him feel. And for me, what I had noticed in the weeks, even months prior to that exact moment, was that my brother was very different from the brother that I had grown up with. He was just this very very active and fun and silly kid. And then you notice as he would switch the medication, he just seemed so so somber and just
not quite himself. And I think we all noticed it, and my mom had gotten to a point where she did not know what to do, and the frustration just set in and my mom just started crying I had never seen her cry like that, and I think it was very it was shocking for me, probably for my twin brother too, but definitely very shocking for me to witness that and to see that frustration and just not knowing what steps to take next. And so I think in that moment, yeah, I was very curious about it.
I was wondering, well, why is it, Why is this his only option? Why is it that he has to be altering himself and who he is? So I was, Yeah, I was maybe sixteen at this time, and I decided that I wanted to go into neurobiology and study it.
Yeah, I mean I can imagine as his sister, just feeling so helpless, like, why is he having to make this trade off between feeling like himself and getting his schoolwork done?
Right?
That's not right? And it's also as his twin sister, right.
So I just I grew up with him and I did everything with him, and we just did everything together, and he was my best friend growing up.
And she just see.
That kind of helplessness from someone who truly is just feels like a part of me was it was pretty shocking.
Wow, that's so beautiful. I mean, I can hear the passion and curiosity in your voice even now, you know, just talking about this, I love to pivot to running for a moment. I love the fact that you've been able to occupy these two very distinct worlds in your life, you know, track and public health. And also there's been so many ebbs and flows in your drive and motivation along the way, and to me, that's a part of your story that feels so relatable. I can't relate to
being an incredibly fast runner, though. Note please that I was on the cross country team in high school and it was notably a walk on team, which is the only reason that I was on the cross country team in high school that I did log in my five k's. Anyway, Yeah, the part that's so relatable to me is that you know, we all question at some point or another whether we're on the right path or whether we should change course.
And it was so reassuring for me, and I'm sure we'll be so reassuring for so many listeners that you fall into this camp too. I so appreciated the fact that you've said you didn't actually love running it first. And the reason I love that, Gavy is because it runs. So counter to the typical romantic story you hear from Olympians, right that it was like love it first step or love it first jump or whatever you know you hear out there, and so you know your story. It just
feels kind of normal and an interesting way, right. It shows that passion can be cultivated. And so just bring me back to your first encounter with running.
I'm wondering what that exposure was like.
Yeah, it's actually very funny that you bring that up, because a lot of times I do just kind of feel like such a phony, being like the only pro track athlete who didn't want to go into track and field. Whenever I talk about it with people, it's always like, what are you talking about? So, what are you doing here? You can cultivate it. But yeah, so I got into track in middle school. My mom forced me to do it,
and at the time I didn't want to go. None of my friends were doing it, and I, quite frankly, I didn't want to run. Soccer was my first love, and they knew I was fast because I would run the ball in soccer and that was all I knew about running, and I knew I didn't want.
To do it.
But I ended up going and being on the team and just running really fast, and from then on it was almost as if I didn't really have a choice but to do track and field because I was winning every race that I was put in, whether I just varied across a sprints and then even the jumps, So I was kind of in this position where I felt obligated to do it.
Tell me more about that, because that is so interesting, right that when we see success in ourselves, even if it doesn't align with an active passion, we feel compelled in some way, like we owe it to the world or owe it to ourselves.
I don't know what it is.
That's exactly how I felt.
Yeah, tell me more about that.
That's exactly how I felt. I felt like I just owed it to the world. You have all these people who are congratulating me, telling me how proud they were of me, and they were so happy to have me on the team and have me running. I just felt like I would have been a very big disappointment if I did not continue to run.
It's a very weird feeling, and.
In hindsight, it's easy to say, Okay, well, then why did you continue to do it? But I think that's a lot of time. That's how we operate, and you want to be successful so badly that sometimes you're just
willing to like overlook whatever is making you happy. Actually, it is this interesting thing that we do in society where you kind of just don't want to waste your talent, right, And I had that talent, and at the end of the day, you know, I do find that people do enjoy things that they're good at, and that is a true statement. But at the time, I didn't, you know,
that was fine. I just continued to do it and I just found joy in the little parts of it, made some friends on the team, and you know, you just find little aspects that you like.
But ultimately track wasn't. I didn't want it to be my thing.
And then at some point, you know, I kept doing it through middle school, and then it was my software year in high school when I actually started to enjoy it and set goals for myself and actually be pretty motivated and determined in the actual sport.
What do you think changed for you? What led you to suddenly start articulating these goals. It turned into a thing you were doing for grudgingly to a thing that was actually driving you day to day.
Well, part of it was I'm like, if I'm going to be here every day in the spring, then I should probably figure out a way to love it. But the biggest part of it was I had a coach who was pushing me a lot and actually just taught me a lot about working hard and actually getting out what you put in, and that's something that I had not really experienced before. So it was kind of just a mindset shift that was like, you know, it actually kind of transcended track and field itself and it more
just became something about me growing as a person. So it really wasn't about loving the running itself, loving running that two hundred meters, but it was more like, Okay, if I'm going to do this, I'm gonna work hard here and then I'm going to see the results.
And that was rewarding part that that I found to enjoy about it.
Were there any role models you had in this space, anyone you saw crushing it out there that.
Let you up. Yeah, Well, Allison Felix was always my role model.
I remember when I was gosh, I had to be in middle school at my grandmother's house and the Olympic Trials were on and my mom told me to turn on the TV because there was someone on the screen that just reminded her of me. She had these long legs and she was just absolutely crushing it with grace and poise, And at the time I thought nothing about it. I said that is great for her, and my mom was like, you could be an Olympian one day, and I'm like, okay, sounds great. Mom, so happy for Allison,
but that's not my path. I just never considered it. And after that, you know, I followed Allison's career a little bit, but again I wasn't following professional track and field that closely. It's not something I inspired to do because I didn't know that it was something that I actually could do, especially for someone who just didn't do you know, club track or any like club sports like that. So I never paid that much attention to it.
Yeah, I also didn't pay much attention to my cross country skills similar similar you know, not it had nothing to do with lack of ability or you know, slow times or anything like that. So you have this great coach, you're performing well in high school, but then there is this moment where you considered quitting running altogether when you were just graduating from high school? What is it that led you to continue on at that moment in time.
So there was a lot of that back and forth throughout my entire college career where I was thinking, is track and field right for me?
Is this the path that I want to go down? Is it?
You know, taking opportunities for me? At this point? You know what where am I going to go from here? And there are so many things that I wanted to accomplish, especially after landing at Harvard University, I thought, you know, there are just so many things I can steady that will take a lot of time. If I want to do labs that will take a lot of time. If I want to study abroad, that will take a lot of time, And I don't know if I can do both.
I was taking this course sick and tired of being sick and tired, and it sparked an interest in me in sociology and biology.
And there were other.
Things on campus that I wanted to be a part of, other organizations and extracurriculars that I wanted to be a part of. A lot of social things that I wanted to be a part of because That's also the fun part of Harvard is like meeting all of these really fascinating and interesting people, and it was finding that balance.
It was very very hard for me to do.
Yeah, I'm wondering if we can talk a little bit more about this really critical class you took at Harvard, which seems to have led you to double down on your commitment to working in the public health space. Can you tell me more about the class.
Yeah, So, Sick and Tired of being sick and Tired was this freshman seminar that I took in the fall, and it was about health disparities and racism and medicine, something that I had never been familiar with. We're not taught that in school. We're not taught that in high school, especially not in the white communities that you know, I
was growing up in. It was when we were learning about the Tuskegee Syphilist Study and we were learning about Henrietta Lacks, and these two stories were just great examples of how black bodies are disregarded in medicine, and it was just very very mind blowing and very impactful.
I want to talk about this moment I read about where you're taking this class it's giving you all sorts of new insights about the depths of medical racism that plague our country's history and also our country's present. And then you speak to your mom about it.
Yeah.
So my mom is actually a rockster in her own right. So she is an education and her whole objective in life is to fight racism and education, right, and so she's always been one to just fight racial injustice. But she's never kind of we never had that conversation right about my career, and she's never forced any type of career on me. So I think when I called her and told her about what I was studying and I felt like this fiery passion about it, she was like, yes,
like this is what you know. We owe it to the world to fight these injustices. And she told me, you know that I'm put in this position and it's not a coincidence, and that this is what I was meant to do, and that it's my responsibility, just as a black woman, with this opportunity and with this platform, to go into it and fight injustice. And so that that's something that really stuck with me and inspired me because.
She she did the same thing.
And you know, when I look back and I think where my mother came from. She came from just complete poverty in Mobile, Alabama and worked her way through school being you know, just finishing and going through undergrad to grad school to PhD and using her experience and her mastery and her opportunity to pay it forward and to fight for people who are underserved in the world. So yeah, absolutely, my mom inspired me so much to just pay it forward and fight the injustices that I'm that I witness.
So Harvard Gaddy is falling in love with public health and you know, aspiring public health official who's helping to bridge racial gaps in the system, racial inequity, and yet this track thing keeps happening to you. It sounds like, right, and it's it's just so fascinating for you to have learn more about you because it just it feels like running was this continual thing.
That you just kept falling into.
Right, It's like this afterthought, but eventually it's just hard for you to deny just how remarkable your potential is.
Right is that?
Is that?
Am I accurate in capturing it in that way?
What it was?
So yeah, my freshman year track was an afterthought and I hated that, and it was something that I was incredibly insecure about just being on the team. And you know, there's this culture of just being very intense and being all in and very committed, and I was going through the motions of that because you know, I was doing that. I was showing up every day on time when I went to the track. I put my one hundred percent
all into it. But it was so hard for me right to actually make that a mental priority the way that other things were for me, especially just growing up with education being the number one priority and that always was and sports were always just something that you did after school.
And so.
My freshman year, after I finished it, it became even harder because I was doing research at Boston Children's Hospital on rut syndrome, which is a form of autism. And I wanted to get my foot in the door right in research and the neurobiology, and I wanted to have that experience because I was afraid that if I didn't, then I might fall behind, I might fall behind all of my peers who were doing and pursuing their passions.
But at the same time, that was an Olympic Trials year and I was running so fast season, and the
season just kept going. I had to go to regionals, and then I had to go to Nationals, and then next with Olympic trials, and so that summer I was balancing working my research job and then also doing track and field at the end, and also working at the dry cleaners because I had to make money, and so it was very stressful summer for me, and I felt like I was being pulled in every direction and also just trying to be a human and live my life
and have that balance. And so I think what ended up making me a little bit resentful of track and field during that freshman summer was that I was not able to put in the hours that I wanted to at my research opportunity, and I felt like I was losing so much of that opportunity on this end of my life because I had to be all in for track and field. You know, once you travel to a meet, you can't halfway travel. Your body is fully there and you're present there and that's what you have to do.
And I couldn't be present at my lab and it frustrated me, and it made me very very nervous and insecure about just what I was going to do outside of the track world, and that definitely carried into my sophomore year. It was an Olympic year. That was YO twenty sixteen. And the thing about the trials in twenty sixteen is that they actually went really well from me.
I got sixth place in the final in the two hundred and had ran alongside Alison Felix, right, which is this amazing and wild dream that I couldn't believe was happening. But somehow I was still resentful about it, you know, And I've never actually admitted that out loud anywhere to anyone except for right now, but that's how I felt.
Look, Gadby, I love your candor, and I totally understand why it's been so hard to admit that, because when we admit that we feel resentful about something, we worry that in turn we'll face the critique. Shouldn't she just be grateful that she's been given all these gifts, as though we're not entitled to feel the things that we feel as move about in this world, which you absolutely
are allowed to do. And so I think sharing that actually is going to make a lot of people feel more comfortable admitting that to themselves because a lot of us are out in the world trying to meet other people's expectations, feeling like we owe the world something, but maybe it's not the right choice for us. And sometimes the first step is just saying this mental calculation just isn't working for me, you know.
Yeah, it wasn't.
I was at a crossroads at this point where I had to decide what mattered to me and what was my priority, and oh man, so I decided to just take a trip to Senegal for eight weeks and completely reset and not worry about any of it. And in Senegal, I studied the culture and the religion. Then I had a fun cohort of people, and I didn't train on a track for a single second. I didn't do any neurobiology work for a single second. And I just did
what I wanted to do. And I came back and was actually I had a very clear mind, and that a very clear headspace of what I wanted to do.
Huh, say more about that, How did it bring you clarity, having this reset moment or this brief respite from the stresses of your daily life.
I didn't expect it to be like that, so I didn't take the trip thinking, oh, I'm just going to reset and figure out what I want to do in my life. I think just stepping away from that and having the freedom and the liberation to just think for myself and be myself and be it so far away the thousands of thousands of miles from any of the
pressure that was being put on me back home. It was not having access to social media for majority of the time, so not even being able to contact people who are asking me to do something or encouraging me to do something one way or another. I was just completely myself and everything was just completely simplified. So it shifted my perspective. I came back and I thought, why not just do exactly what I want to do? And I knew what I wanted what I didn't want to
do when I got back there. I knew that I didn't want to stress myself out trying to strike this balance between between school and track. I just had kind of let all that anxiety go and all that pressure go, at least for that time. And so my my junior year, I somehow just it all just kind of fell together.
In the classroom. I started taking these fun sociology courses that complimented by biology courses and track and field just went very well for me that year, and that ended up being my breakout year where I broke the collegiate record and won the NCAA Championship, which was just ironic because I had not even finished my sophomore season. So I think a lot of people were just incredibly shocked that I would I would come back after that and not having trained all summer just to.
Go do that. But it was just it was a mindset shift. It just clicked. Everything came together my junior year and I was just how much happier.
And you enjoyed running your junior year? Is that right to say.
I enjoyed it? Yes? And I enjoyed running.
I enjoy like I enjoyed being on the track, and I enjoyed racing, And that is genuinely when I actually loved it.
I'm wondering, Gabby, tell me if you think this hypothesis is right. But it does feel like, I mean, nothing changed about the workouts, nothing changed about how grueling it is to be an athlete, But it does seem like what changed coming out back from Senegal is that you were finally running on your own terms. It was finally a decision that you felt you were making that the world wasn't making for you. And maybe that's where that joy came from.
I think one hundred percent. I think I had taken everything and just put it on my own terms, completely running on my own terms, deciding not to be pigeonolled. Nothing was made for me. I think that that made the difference.
After the break, we'll hear all about Gabby's journey to the Olympics. We'll be back in a moment with a slight change of plans. I've got to talk about the Olympics and your journey to the Olympics. Oh my gosh, tell me about the twenty twenty one US Olympic trials. I have watched that video on loop. It is one of the most joyful human moments that, oh my god, this is your story to tell.
Yeah, that is definitely the most joyful moment of my life. I think that realization that I was crossing the line, in the realization that I was going to the Olympics right was the first thing that I was very excited about. And I realized that, you know, halfway down the street at the end of my two hundred meters that I'm going to make this Olympic team.
That's Thomas, Thomas is going to Dan Hello, timeline.
The line, don't win that moment two day, Thomas is going to Tokyo twenty one six.
And then I realized that I was coming in first and winning a national championship and that I was definitely making this Olympic team.
And that was the most joyous moment of all.
But then there was a realization that my time was the second fastest time ever ran behind flow Jo and everyone knows flo Jo, And then it was just unbelievable for me. I couldn't even hide how excited I was. You were not advised to throw your hands in the air before you finish the sprint race, but I couldn't help it.
I pictured that. You have no idea how many people yelled at me.
We were all throwing our hands in the air for you.
Okay, yeah, Everyone's like, oh, you know, you shouldn't have done that. I'm like, I don't care.
And just the excitement was I can't even explain it. It was such an amazing feeling. I pictured the moment so many times in my head before actually running the race. And then to have that visualization come to life was an amazing experience, and especially because leading up to that moment just I don't know if people realize, but trials is the most stressful thing that I think any any.
Athlete has will ever do.
The entire two weeks that I was there, I did not eat or sleep because it was just so anxiety inducing. And it's just pretty much, you know, for a track athlete, it's just you versus the track, so there is there are no other factors that go into it.
There's nobody else you can blame. It's really just you and what you've put in.
So it just made it that much better when I actually did make the team, because we all know that the Olympic being postponed due to COVID was a whole craziness. I you know, I picked up my entire life and moved to Austin, Texas to make this Olympic team. So everything needed to work out, and so I'm very very grateful that it did.
Yeah, and You've said that when you had this magnificent performance at trials, all of a sudden there was a mindset shift again right where you're going from running track to now competing for gold at the Olympics, which is obviously an exceptional version of a shift, but I do think it's very relatable for so many of us that there are these key moments in life where suddenly our goals come into sharp focus and it just really changes the game.
Yeah, that is actually very true.
It's funny because I had moved to Austin, Texas at the end of twenty nineteen with the intentions of making the Olympic team and then very possibly just moving on from track and field after accomplishing that and pursuing public health or pursuing a career that I wanted, you know, something else that I wanted to do with, you know, going to school and getting a master's in public health
and then working after that. But after I made the team with a time like that, yeah, suddenly I decided, Okay, well now I can actually go for a gold medal. And so that was it was such a rapid shift and so rapid and huge, and I just felt it so holy.
And then, you know, when I was at the Olympics.
It was a shift because now decided that I'm probably going to continue running for through the next Olympics, and that just wasn't what I had in mind before. It was definitely a change in plans, and so now I'm just I'm focused on that, right And now I'm focusing on World Championships this next year, and then World Championships again and then the Olympics.
By the way, I'm glad you omitted the slight part of the change in plants. I think this is a sizeable change in plans. I've got rid of the cheeky slight. Yeah, I was sizable.
So how has this influenced how you see the coming years?
Right?
So, you you're, from what I understand, currently pursuing your masters in epidemiology in Texas. You said you are competing or you plan to compete in the World Championships. Is this now the new balancing act for Gabby Thomas?
Yeah, you know, I do what I can, and so yeah, right now, I'm currently getting my masters in public health, specifically epidemiology and healthcare administration, and I am still competing and I plan to be competing in track and field for the foreseeable future.
Oh sorry, I was gonna say, you know less. Listeners think it was like a super clear cut decision. Again, from what I understand, you did think you might quit track again even after the Olympics.
Is that right? Yeah, I did think. I did think I might quit, or i'll call it retire, retire. I feels a little nicer than quitting.
Okay, Daddy was on record is potentially wanting to retire. Can you can you tell me more about about that decision, because like, again, look, I think it's very easy for all of us to look at you and be like Gabby Thomas, that girl's got it figured out, and and knowing that even in that moment after winning these two medals at the Olympics, you're still like, eh, maybe maybe I'm done. You know, in those moments, what's the calculation
you're doing in your head? Like what would need to be in what needs to be in place for you to say, Okay, yeah I'm continuing running.
Yeah.
It's actually really funny because I decided that the reason why I want to retire or very possibly thought about retiring, was because like, just like in college, I think it was a similar thing where there were so many things that I wanted to pursue, and I was told that as a pro athlete that you had to fully commit to being a professional athlete, and what I learned in the last year was that that was not the case, and I had to take a risk, and I was told that I may have been doing too much and
that I was very risky. Again, I was told not to move to Austin, Texas during an Olympic year. I was told that I should not be taking classes, I should not be working while training. It was doing too much. And I realized it wasn't. And the reason that is is because I loved everything that I was doing, and everything that I was doing was recharging and it was
fueling me. So when I was in school, I couldn't wait to get to the track, and when I was, you know, at the track, I couldn't wait to go back and just hang out and be in my class and not be dying by four hundreds.
So they both kind of like recharged each other.
And so when I realized that, I thought, Okay, well, I can definitely do both at a great level, and so why not do it? And if there ever comes a time where I do feel like it's too much, then I'll dial it back a little bit. Or if there's ever a time where I feel like I need to shift gears because I'm like, hey, I don't like what I'm doing anymore.
I think that's okay too. The only real pressure I feel is the external pressure.
Right. It's like this idea they nicknamed me wonder Woman, that I'm doing all of these things and I'm doing.
Them all so well.
Well, I would hate to let anyone down. But you know, at the same time, I am doing all of these things well because I continue to choose me and to choose what makes me happy. So if I want to shift gears again one day after getting my master's in public health, I am one hundred percent okay with that. If one day I wake up and decide that track is not for me, then I'm okay with that too. But for now, they're both going well, and I'm having
so much fun and I'm loving it. I'm loving my life and I'm loving the decisions and choices that I've made for myself. And I I'm deciding to continue to choose both.
I love that.
Thank you, Gaby, thank you.
It's just so much fun.
Hey, thanks for listening. Join me next week, and I really mean next week when I talk with psychologist Angela Duckworth about the science of grit and how natural talent and ability will only get you so far.
I really don't know anybody who has become you know, world class in economics or at you know, being a political leader or anything else. You know, a classroom teacher, a nurse like without you know, just years and years of effort.
A Slight Change of Plans is created, written and executive produced by me Maya Shunker. The best part of creating this show is getting to collaborate with my formidable Slight Change family. This includes Tyler Green, our senior producer, Jen Guera, our senior editor, Ben Holliday, our sound engineer, Emily Rosstek our associate producer, and Neil LaBelle our executive producer. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped
arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Wae. You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker, and please remember to subscribe, share and rate the show to help get the word out.
See you next week.
I don't plan on retiring anytime soon. Maybe when I'm thirty five.
You're telling me it's too late, Gabby, because I turned thirty six in a few weeks. My dreams are Overdy's going to require thirty five, folks, I'm over the hill.
I know actually quite a few thirty five year olds who actually competed for US.
I did very well. Chance, Yeah, it's still a fighting chance.