Pushkin. Hey everyone, it's Maya. The best part of making this show has been hearing from all of you about how these conversations have transformed the way you think about your life and have helped you better navigate your slight changes of plan. With that in mind, we wanted to revisit four of your all time favorite episodes this summer. They also happen to be some of my favorites too.
First up, drum roll please, our first ever episode of the show, which features Darryl Davis, a black jazz musician whose life took an unexpected turn after a member of the Ku Klux Klan approached him after one of his concerts. When I first conceptualized what this show could even be, I had Darryl's story in mind. It took forever for me to track him down, and I literally remember jumping up and down in my living room when I finally
heard back. Daryl and I have since become good friends, and my husband Jimmy, and I had the amazing opportunity to meet him in person for dinner last summer in DC. If you're new to the show, this is a great episode to start with, and if you aren't, it's a great one to revisit. I have felt transformed by it, and I often reflect back on the profound insights Darryl shared with me.
So I was riding in my car. I'm driving and this clansman was sitting in my passenger seat and we got on the topic of a crime, and he made the mention that black people are born with a gene that makes them violent. And I said, look, I'm as black as anybody you've ever seen. I have never done a drive by or a car jacking. How do you explain that this man did not hesitate one second? He answered me instantly, he said, your gene is latent. It hasn't come out yet.
That's Daryl Davis, a blues musician. And yeah, you heard him right. He's driving in his car with a member of the Ku Klux Klan.
You know, I was speechless. I was dumbfounded. And he's sitting next to me with all smug and secure. Let huh, you see, you know you have nothing to say. And I thought about it for a moment rather than attack him, you say it's not true. It's not true. I said to him, I said, you know, white people have a gene within them that make them serial killers. And he said, why would you say that. I said, well, Fayson, name me three black serial killers. He thought about it. He
couldn't name anybody. He couldn't do it. I rattled off Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dalmer, Lucas, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, David berkle with son of Sam Albert de Salvo, the boss and strangler. And I said, son, you are a serial killer. And he said, Darryl, I've never killed anybody. I said, you're Gina's latent hasn't come out yet. He said, well, that's stupid. And I said, well, dug, it is stupid. And he got very, very quiet, and I could tell that the gears in his head were spinning super fast,
burning a hole in there. And then he a moment later he changed the subject. But within five months this guy quit the Ku Klux Klan.
Since that car ride thirty years ago, Darryl Davis has gone on to convince dozens of people to leave the Ku Klux Klan. Convincing someone else to change their mind their view of reality is one of the most elusive, coveted types of change, which is why Darryl's story feels so improbable, So how does he do it? I'm Maya Shunker. As a cognitive scientist, I've always been fascinated by how we change our minds and why we change our minds.
On this show, I'll have intimate conversations with people who've navigated extraordinary change, and hopefully their stories will get us to think differently about change in our own lives. This is a slight change of plans. Daryl didn't set out to change anyone's mind. He was mostly just focused on his music. But one night his life took an unexpected turn when he was playing a show at a bar called the Silver Dollar Lounge.
The silver Dollar Lounge at the time was an all white lounge, and I say that not meaning that black people could not go in, but meaning that they did not go in by their own choice because they were not welcome there. And when you go somewhere where you're not welcome and alcohol is being served, sometimes it is not made for a good combination, especially when you're outnumbered.
So we took a break after the first set, and I was walking across the dance floor to go sit, you know, with the bandmates, when somebody approached me from behind and put their arm around my shoulder. Now I don't know anybody in this place, so I'm turning around to see who's touching me. And it was this gentleman, maybe fifteen eighteen years older than me. And he's all excited. He says, man, I shore like you're a piano playing. This is the first time I ever heard a black
man play piano like Jerry Lee Lewis. And I told him, I said, well, Jerry Lee got it from the same place I did, from black blues and boogie woogie piano players. Oh no, no, no, no, I never heard no black man play like that except for you. Jerry Lee invented that style. I said, look, I know Jerry Lee Lewis. He's a good friend of mine. He's told me himself where he'd learn how to play. The guy didn't buy that either, but he was so fascinated with me that he wanted me to come back to his table. He's
going to buy me a drink. So I don't drink, but I agreed to have a cranberry juice. He bought it, paid the waitress, and then he took his glass and he clinked my glass and cheered me, and then he announces, you know, this is the first time I ever sat down with a black man and had a drink, so innocently I asked him why, and he didn't answer me at first. I asked him again, and his buddy sitting next to him elbowed him and said tell him, tell him, And the guy looked at me and said, I'm a
member of the Ku Klux Plan. Well, I burst out laughing at him because now I did not believe him. I thought he was pulling the joke on me. I'm laughing. He goes inside his pocket, pulls out his wallet, flips through it, and hands me his clan membership card. Recognize the Plan insignia, which is a red circle with a white cross and a red blood drop in the center of the cross, And I'm thinking to myself, oh my goodness, you know this is for real. So I stopped laughing.
But he was, you know, very friendly and very appreciative of my music and all excited. He gave me his phone number to you know, to call him whenever I was to return to this bar with this band, and so I'd call him every six weeks and say, hey, man, you know I'm down there at the Silver dollar this weekend, come on out.
You say it so nonchalantly, like so I called the guy. It is remarkable that you called this person. And you know, I don't think I'm alone in struggling to understand you know, what was going through through your mind at this moment. If someone told me that they were in the freaking clan, I would certainly not call them back. In fact, I'd probably just flee the scene. And I think this is for pretty good reasons.
Well, you know, I was questioning myself for a second, like what the hell at the my doing sitting here with a klansman. But the guy was friendly. He disputed the things that I had in mind of the image of a typical clansman, and he wanted to share my music with some of his fellow clansmen and clans women. And they would you get on the dance floor and dance to orro on music. You know, they didn't come in robes and hoods, right, you know, they came in, you know, regular street clothes.
This goes on for a year, an entire year. Daryl would play a gig at this bar, and he would invite clan members to watch him play. This is one of those things that makes Daryl so unusual. I mean, for me, a huge part of what makes someone who they are is their belief system. And so if we share the same taste in music, that's fine, that's great. But if I then find out they're a flagrant racist, that's going to fully eclipse everything else about them. So
how does Daryl look past that? He says, it's not like that. He wasn't looking past it. He wanted to learn from see. Darryl had spent his early childhood overseas in a school he describes as a United Nations for little kids. Race was always in the background, but when he moved back to the States when he was ten, he couldn't escape racism, and ever since then he's been interested in why people hate.
I had had an experience at the age of ten where some racist people threw rocks and bottles at me during a parade in which I was the only black participant, and never having had this happen to me before, I was perplexed as to why people were doing this, and when later my parents explained that it was racism, my ten year old brain could not process the idea that someone who had never seen me before who had never spoken with me and knew nothing about me, would want
to inflict pain upon me for no other reason than the color of my skin. You know, that just did not compete with me. Well later, when I realized this was true, there are people like that, I formed a question in my mind, which was, how can you hate me when you don't even know me? And some people would just say, well, Darryl, you know that's just the way it is. Well, no, it's not just the way it is. There has to be a reason behind it. Well it's always been that way. That was not good
enough for me. I want to get to the nucleus of it.
So Daryl dedicates himself to answering this question. He devours books about race and racism. He reads nearly every book that exists on the clan, but he's still unsatisfied, so he decides he wants to write his own book about the clan.
All the books written on the clan except for mine, have been written by white authors. You know, white authors obviously have an easier time getting in contact with the Klan and sitting down and not fearing any ramifications or whatever. Or they might even join the clan undercover. A Klansman would have a different perspective sitting there talking to a black person than he would a white person.
And how do you feel that perspective would have been different.
Because he's sitting there telling the person that he hates why he hates him. So now he's having to face me and face those same questions. You know that somebody would ask or even different questions that a white interviewer journalist would not ask because they don't think of him, because they don't feel the things the same things that I feel.
As Darryl starts researching for his book, it suddenly dawns on him he already knows someone in the Klan, that guy from the Silver Dollar Lounge. So he goes on a mission to track him down. It takes a while, but eventually he finds the guy's dress.
And I knocked on the door, you know, unannounced, and he opens the door and sees me. He goes, Daryl, you know, what are you doing here? And look, he looked up and down the hallway to see if I brought anybody with me. So it was more him that who was intimidated than me. And when he stepped out of his apartment, I stepped in, so he turns around, comes back in. So now we're standing inside his apartment and he says, you know what's going on. You're still playing?
What's going on? I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm still playing. Listen, I need to talk to you about the Klan. He says, the Klan. I said, yeah. He goes, well, I quit. I quit a while back. I said, well, you know, where's all your clan stuff? He says, well, they came and got it. And I said, what do you mean they came and got your robin hood? Don't you own it?
And he explained to me, when you join the Klan, if you have the money to pay for it, you can purchase your robin Hood and it's yours to keep forever. If you cannot afford it at the time, you can still take it home with you, but you put a little extra money in every time you pay your dues until you pay it off, sort of like Lagway kind of thing.
A bizarre financial aid system within the Klan. Love it, yes, exactly, equal opportunity for everyone. He's racist, right, that's right?
Okay, absolutely so. Anyway, he said that they came and got it, but when they came to get it. He could not find the mask, and he has since found it and he needed to return it. I said, well, can I see it. So he goes down the hallway, comes back and hands me the mask, and I said to him, I said, do you know Roger Kelly. He says, yeah, Roger was my Grand Dragon. I know him. And I said, well, listen, I need you to hook me up with mister Kelly. I want you to interview him. I'm going to write
a book on the clan. Now, let me explain how the hierarchy of the plan works. You understand these terms. We would call a state leader a governor. They call that the Grand Dragon, a mayor. That person is known as the Exalted Cyclops. Anybody on the great level is yes.
Sorry, the self importance of these names, this is truly.
Well yeah, but see, that's also what attracts people, because you know, they get titles, they feel important. Yes, it's a sense of self importance, you know, because they're not getting that from the society in which they live. So you know, this brotherhood, this gang, if you will, gives them those things. So at the time, Roger Kelly was the Grand Dragon state leader from Maryland. So I said, I'll tell you what you need to return this mask?
Right he said, yeah, I said, give me Roger Kelly's phone number and his address, and I'll go and return it for you. And he snapped that thing right out of my hand and said, in no way. And so I begged and plead it with him. Well, he finally gave it to me on the condition that I not revealed to mister Kelly where I got it. And he warned me, he said, Daryl, do not go to Roger Kelly's house. Roger Kelly will kill you. And I said, well, that's the whole reason why I need to talk to
mister Kelly. I need to know why would he kill me? What is going on in his mind when he sees me. I have to understand this.
You did realize that you might not get the answer to the question if in fact the dangerous part happened first, right, true, this.
Is true, But I was thinking, you know that I would prevail. I'm the eternal optimist if you will.
Well, I am not the eternal optimist. And Daryl's decision feels incredibly risky. But anyway, he has a secretary, Mary call and schedule the interview, and he gives her one important instruction, do not tell.
Him that I'm black, and see if you would consent to sitting down and giving her boss an interview. I figured he might pick up in my voice that I'm black, and I didn't want him to hang up with the phones and am I talking to you? And my whole project would have ended before they ever got started.
Roger Kelly agrees to meet for an interview one evening at a nearby motel. Darrel gets to the motel early with Mary. He's not sure if Roger will even agree to step foot in the room, but if he does, Daryl wants to be hospitable. He asked Mary to fill up the ice bucket and buy some sodas, and then they start arranging the room. There's not much to arrange. There's the ice bucket, a table, two chairs, and Daryl's canvas bag which has his tape recorder and a Bible.
The Klan claims to be a Christian organization and they claim that the Bible preaches a racial separation. Now, in my reading of the Bible, I have never seen anything like that in there. So I want to be able to pull up my Bible and handed to him and said, here, mister Kelly, please show me chapter and verse where it says blacks and whites must be separate. So I'm all prepared, right right on time, right to the minute. Five point fifteen knock, knock, knock on the door. In Walts what
is known as the Grand Nighthawk. Nighthawk means bodyguard security. He's dressed in military camouflage and he has that clan patch on his chest on one side, on the other side of his chest or the initials KKK and embroidered on his cap. It said Knights of the ku Klux Klan, and on his hip. He had a semi automatic handgun in a holster. He comes in, mister Kelly is walking directly behind him, carrying a briefcase in a dark blue suit and tie. And the Nighthawk turned the corner and
saw me and just froze in his trap. So mister Kelly slammed into his back and knocked this guy forward. And now that they both are stumbling around trying to regain their balance, and they're like looking all around the room like, uh, something's not right here. And I'm just sitting at the table looking at their faces, and I could read their faces like a billboard. Their faces were saying to me, did the desk clerk give us the wrong room number? Do we misunderstand something? Or is this
an ambush? So, you know, I saw the apprehension, and so I stood up and I displayed both of my palms to show I had nothing in my hands, and I walked forward. I extended my right hand and I said, hi, mister Kelly, I'm Darryl Davis.
We'll be right back with a slight change of plants. You're listening to a slight change of plans. I'm Maya Shunker. So there they are, Roger Kelly, the Grand Dragon of the Klan, face to face with Darryl Davis. Daryl reaches out to shake Roger's hand and Roger shakes his hand back. It seems like the interview is going to happen, but before he can dive in with his first question, Roger asked to see Daryl's ID. So Daryl hands in his driver's license and.
Then he looks at it and he says, oh, you live on such and such street. And so now I'm wondering, why is this man reading my address? You know? Is he going to come burn across at my house or you know what. So that had me a little concerned, but I didn't want to let him know that he had rattled me a little bit, and so I said to him, I said, yes, mister Kelly, that is where I live and you live at and I named his house number and his street.
It's a pretty good mic drop line.
Yeah, because you know, if you come visit me, I'm going to come visit you. So you know, maybe it's better that we just confine all this visiting to this motel room. So anyway, we started with this interview. That's cool.
This is the actual cassette tape from the meeting.
Okay, first, what got you interested in the qklux Klan. I was always interest as a kid. You know, when I was going to school, I was interest. I was fast native by the Rachel was the rogues across burning and things like him. Hey, and did you have a family in the plant? Was like a friend introduced to the kond grandmother plan years ago. You know. We began talking and every time my cassette would run out of tape, I'd reach down into my bag to get a fresh cassette.
Or if mister Kelly tried to make some biblical point. I'd reach down in my bag and pull out the Bible. The nighthawk was standing to mister Kelly's right at full attention, and every time I reached down, the nighthawk reached up to his gun. Well after about an hour or so, the bodyguard relaxed. He realized there was no threat in the bag, and I went in and out of the bag.
He didn't move. A little over an hour into this, mister Kelly and I were just have, you know, casual conversation, and there was a quick, short noise that occurred out of nowhere. It sounded like this, And because it came out of nowhere suddenly, and it was so fast and so short, my ear could not discern it. So I perceived it to be a threatening noise. I knew that mister Kelly had made this noise. How did I know that? Because I didn't make it, and I feared for my life.
I'm not armed, My secretary is not armed. The only person who I know for sure is armed is the nighthawk. I can see his gun on his hip. I don't know if mister Kelly Carey as went up under his suit jacket or not. All I know is, you know, I don't want to die. I'm looking right into mister Kelly's eyes. I mean, I'm just like inches away from him, and his eyes were fixated on mine. Mine were fixated on his. Neither one of us said a word. My eyes were saying to him, what did you just do?
And I realized his eyes were saying to me, what did you just do? And the nighthawk was looking back and forth between both of us, like, what did either one of y'all just do? Well. Mary was sitting to my left on top of the dresser because there were no more chairs in the room, and she realized what had happened, and she began explaining it to us. When it happened again, the ice in the ice bucket had begun melting, and the cans of soda pop were shifting down the ice.
Wow.
And then, of course when she explained it and it happened again, you know, we all began laughing. We all began laughing at the same thing. Everybody in that room became human in that moment. We all feared, We all feared each other. Somebody could have gotten shot over an ice cube. All right, Just think about that for a second.
After this interview, Daryl and Roger keep in touch. Daryl is still curious about Roger's perspective and how it might answer the question Daryl's been asking for decades, how can you hate me if you don't even know me? And now the two weren't actually getting to know each other. Was there a point where you thought, hey, wait a second, I might actually be able to get this Roger Kelly guy to change his mind about this.
Here's the thing, Maya. I never set out to change anybody, not the first time, by any means, because you know, I never expected anybody to change. All I wanted to know was how can you hate me when you don't even know me? That's all I want to know. And I never expected to see these people again. But when you're sitting there, one on one with somebody, it's hard to hate them. That's a human being. It's hard to hate them, and it's hard for them to hate you, even though they may try.
Was there something specific that he did or that he said where you saw that there was an inn Yeah.
I began noticing changes in his behavior, in his language. He'd been to my house. His bodyguard would come with him initially, and we would have lunch or dinner at my table. I never got invited to his house, But then when he became Imperial Wizard, he began inviting me to his house. And already he was coming down to my house without without his bodyguard. He trusted me that much.
This goes on for over five years. Eventually, Roger quits the Klan, but he doesn't simply step down and hand it over to someone else. He shuts down his entire chapter, and he cites his friendship with Daryl as being the reason Darryl since inspired over two hundred people to leave white supremacist groups. And Darryl's story of changing people's minds doesn't end there. He's still doing this kind of work today all over the world, and I wanted to dig
in deeper on his approach. I know you don't like saying that you change people's minds, right, You inspire them to change their own minds. So when it comes to inspiring them to change their own minds, did you have to adapt your approach at all when dealing with different types of folks?
Absolutely? Because you know, just like if somebody you know you're a musician and you play violin, And I don't know if you're right handed or left handed.
Left handed, hey, shout out all the.
Left these Some people are wired left handed, some people are wired right handed. It doesn't make one person better than the other. It just happens to be how they are wired. Likewise, how we make decisions depends upon how we're wired. Some people are wired to make decisions based upon their emotions. Others make decisions based upon their logic.
So first you determine how does somebody decide something. If they if they make decisions based upon emotion, then there's no way in heck you're going to get to get them to see your point if you bring a logical perspective. The same thing, if you're dealing with a scientist or somebody who deals in data and logic and evidence, don't come with an emotional argument. You know, then I ain't even going to listen to you. Show them the data, show them the stats, the test results. So you know,
you have to go to where they are. And oftentimes we miss that, we don't understand in that because we haven't taken the time. I've seen it happen time and time again. So a klansman comes into my room to be interviewed or whatever we meet. As soon as he or she sees me, the wall goes right up. You cannot impart any intelligent information to them when their wall is up, because when their wall is up, their ears are plugged and they're shutting you out. Your mission is
to bring the wall down. So I'm sitting there two feet from the guy, and he's telling me that I'm a criminal and that I'm lazy, and that I'm unintelligent, basing all of this based on my black skin. So when he's done radiating all this vitriol, his wall has come down because I haven't pushed back, and he's curious as to why I haven't pushed back, because he's so accustomed to being pushed back on and so now I've thrown him off his game and he wants to know, well,
how do I feel about it all this? I could go on the offense and attack him verbally and say, no, you are the criminal. You are the ones hanging black men from trees and bombing black churches and dragging black men behind pickup trucks, and I would be one hundred percent correct. But rather than go on the offense, because if I did that, that wall would go right back up and he wouldn't hear a word I'm saying. Instead of going on the offense, I go on the defense,
and Maya, here's what happens. He goes home and at the end of the day, like we all do, we reflect on what transpired during the day before we go to bed. He thinks, Man, you know, I had a three hour conversation today with a black guy, you know, and we didn't come to blows. You know, we might have gotten a little loud, but we didn't come to blows. And in most cases with me, most people have changed their perspectives.
So I don't think many people in their everyday lives are going to be interacting with members of the Klan. Obviously that many of us, many lives listeners of this podcast do encounter racism and prejudice on a daily basis. And you know, when I first heard about your story, I thought, Wow, if this man can convince clan members
to leave, then anything is possible. But it feels like maybe things are a little bit more complicated than that, right, because in order to get someone to be less racist, a necessary step is for them to identify that they are in fact being racist, and clan members are already brazen and celebratory in their racism. But if you were to challenge a mom or a dad who says in private, you know that they prefer their daughter not marry a black man, they might not be willing to acknowledge this
prejudice within themselves. And so I'm curious to know what advice you'd give to people who are trying to help those around them simply acknowledge their own prejudices.
BIA sending down saying hey, let's let's not have a debate, let's have a conversation. For example, just the other day, a very good friend of mine his fellow musician, and we both like music of the fifties, you know, Elvis, Presley, Chuck Berry, all that stuff, And he posted on Facebook, I wish we could return to the mindset of the fifties, and all these people, you know, gave him a thumbs up and likes and all that kind of stuff. So I saw it and I wrote on there, hmm, dot
dot dot. I said, maybe we should return bring back the music, maybe bring back some of the cool cars, and definitely some of the low prices, but perhaps not the mindset. And see, and that's a whole different perspective. You will never hear black people talk about the good old days because we didn't have good old days, you know. And you know, I loved the music of the fifties.
But what I want to go back to that era? No, because in that era, I would have to be drinking from a separate order fountain, riding in the back of the bus, not being served in certain restaurants. I don't want to go back to that. But see, that didn't even occur to him. Why did it not occur to him? Because he has white privilege, and you know, it was just plain ignorance. So I had to just point it out to him. If he wasn't trying to be offensive or anything like that, he just didn't know.
How do you think about the difference between labeling behaviors as racist versus people as racist, and how that difference in focus might affect people's ability to change.
You put a label on somebody, they tend to carry it. It damages them. And if they have paid their price that you know, they've given that up. They should not have to wear that label anymore. We need to break them from that otherwise what do they have left? How do they feel whole? You know, we can't do that to people.
During my time at the Obama White House, when we were designing re entry guides for people who are leaving prison in we made sure not to use labels like ex convicts or ex prisoners and instead use forward looking language like community members. And this was based on the idea that people often act in ways that strongly align with their social identities, and you know, they can often feel fixed in those identities.
Yes, like, if they've paid the price, they have accepted responsibility and accountability, then why should we label them that way? Label them as to what they are at the time.
Daryl's now working with the State Department. They send him on trips to Israel, India and other countries to talk about prejudice and bigotry and how to tackle the deep inequities of race, class, and caste. He also gives dozens of lectures a year at universities.
And I'll, you know, at the end of the lecture, I'll do a Q and A There'll be some students standing off in the distance, not doing anything, just kind of milling around. When the crowd dissipates and goes away from the podium, he or she will then approach me and they'll like, look around, make sure nobody's with an earshot, and they'll say, oh, you know, I enjoyed your lecture, mister Davis. You know I was raised that way. My mother is in the Klan, or my father's a neo Nazi.
You know, this is how I grew up. But now I'm here at University of whatever and my boyfriend is Jewish or my girlfriend is black, and I can't bring I can't bring that person home. My parents will kill me or you know, or they'll disown me. And how do they go home and tell their parents that their parents were wrong? You know, their parents wanted them to go and get an education, but they didn't want them to get that education. So they've got this secret burning
on their chest. You know, that just has to come out. And I'm one of the perfect persons, you know that they can talk to about it, and I'll sit down and talk with them and you know, give them some advice and things like that and try to smooth things out for them, you know, help them out. You know, I get a lot of those kinds of emails, guys. You know, want me to talk to their brother, or some kid wants me to talk to their parents, or
some wife wants me to talk to her husband. We need something like, you know, a race anonymous kind of thing, and I'm planning on having a museum one day. In my museum, I'm going to have a component for people to come and talk about, you know, racist spouses or racist parents, or racist siblings or something like that, so there will be an outlet for them and hopefully, hopefully that can be replicated around the country.
We spent so much of this interview talking about how you inspire change in others, and I'm wondering how this whole experience changed you.
I just thought I'd meet these people, get my information, write my book, and be done, never see them again. What you and I and everybody else has heard as children is this. A tiger does not change of stripes, a leopard does not change his spots. So why would we think that a clan and would change his ideology? You know, people are who they are. But when somebody started changing, and then it happened again and again and again, I realized I was onto something. So what can be
learned can also be unlearned. I cannot stop doing this work. So I'm making just as much time between my music and doing this kind of work because I love my country and I want to see it improve. We spend too much time in this country talking about the other person, talking at the other person, and talking past the other person. I prefer to talk with the other person, and that has been the key to my success.
Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my conversation with Darryl, I'd recommend you listen to an episode of the show featuring Megan Phelps roper. Megan was born into the Westboro Baptist Church, a religious cult that is known as one of the most rabid hate groups in America. She was a true believer in one of the church's most vocal advocates until one day she changed her mind. We'll link to the episode in the show notes. A Slight Change of Plans is created and executive producer by
me Maya Schunker. Big thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries, including our producer Mola Board, associate producers David Jaw and Julia Goodman, Executive producers Meia Lavelle and Justin Lange, Senior editor Jen Guera and sound design and mixed engineers Ben Holliday and Jason Gambrell. Thanks also to Louis Scara who wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith who helped arrange the vocals, incidental music from Epidemic Sound, and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow
a slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. So, Daryl, one of the things that really captivated me on a personal level about your story is that you are a musician. I was also a musician in the younger part of my life, and I studied classical violin.
Okay, if I have to correct you on something you said that you were a musician, let me tell you something. Was a musician, always a musician. So you're still a musician.
Oh I love that. Thank you. I think my technique would violate that assumption, but I think in my heart I am a musician. I'll give you that