The Villains Trilogy

Hello, I'm Joseph Lidster and you're listening to a podcast of spurious morality. Try saying that after a drink. Hello and welcome to a podcast of spurious morality. I'm Johnston and with me this week. I have Gareth Hello, and we are joined by special guest Joseph Lidster. Hello. Hi. How are you? Very good. Thank you. Welcome. Welcome back

Yes, you're a first you're a first ever returning guest. Oh So we've we've had some very wonderful people join us but as yeah, you are the first one to to rejoin us Does that make me special or cheap? Which one? We'll ask our listeners to yeah touch it is on blue sky. We're on blue sky now. We've left to it Oh, yes, so get in touch with us on blue sky and it's very difficult to we don't say tweet anymore

It was nice and easy to go. Oh just tweet Isn't it supposed to post post post at is on blue sky and They need a ubiquitous word for that. Yes That's that was the really stupid thing. I'm going on a rant already That was the really stupid thing about changing Twitter to X. It was the fact that Twitter and tweet had become so Sort of embedded into our language, you know tweet had become a verb and like throwing that away for the sake of changing the logo and

Satisfying ones ego is stupid really. It's just just one of many brilliant decisions. Just yes And it was all downhill from there, but yes, we're on blue sky so taught was there So we're here today to discuss I suppose a fairly iconic Big Finnish trilogy we're gonna discuss the the villains trilogy that they did in the build up to the 40th anniversary of Doctor Who so we've got Omega. We've got master. We've got Omega. We've got Davros and we've got master get it in order

And Joe you you wrote master. I did. Yes many many many years ago. Yes 2021 at least yeah And it was was your second am I right in thinking it was yeah, I'd written the rapture which was a Sylvester McCoy and Sophie ordered and they went to Ibiza where aliens are taking over the world with dance music and MDMA I think it was and That didn't go down very well with Doctor Who fans

With well with lots of fans. I've been also is my first script So, you know, it does you know freely admit it falls apart in the final episode and everything But luckily for me, I was commissioned to write master before the Rapture was released So I got to come back Because I think had the Rapture got the response it got and I hadn't been commissioned for master I suspect I wouldn't have been commissioned for it But but thankfully you were and the rest is history

and of course the Rapture has brought about this episode of its podcast because I was in Ibiza recently and saw a sign up advertising Jude's bar and I thought I know who I need to send this to yes. Yeah, so Fired it over and we we decided to podcast again, which was which was nice So there you go. The Rapture has if nothing else brought about this episode of this podcast. I I liked it. I like it. I didn't have a problem. Yeah. No, I think it's absolutely fantastic

I haven't heard it in years. I remember being really proud of episode two I think episode two was submit very different topic finish it done before I think episode one was good I just think in episode three it as far as I can remember it starts to fall apart plot wise in episode three

But I learned a lot from doing it. I learned a lot about plotting Because I did the big thing I learned from it was Your endings got to be as strong as your opening Whereas Rapture didn't it had I think quite a strong opening and then sort of trailed off into nothing by the end And I also learned to get off Doctor Who forums I mean, I still read stuff, but yeah, not not to really engage with ongoing

Fandome discussions, I suppose on forums. Yeah, because I didn't think it was healthy for me It was healthy for me certainly, but also I don't think it's necessary particularly healthy or not healthy It's not healthy for me, but I don't think it's particularly good for Allowing free speech on a forum people should be allowed to say they hate something that they've bought Without thinking oh, I don't want to upset someone's feelings. So I very quickly withdrew from Gallifrey outpost Gallifrey

And it's it's the negative ones you remember as well. Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, so I died and I got some real doozies I did get not you know, I was I was like In my early 20s, I said I was young and I hadn't done anything before and it was very exciting And also I wasn't part of fandom You know, so I didn't really know what people liked or you know what the general consensus on on things was So I was really just really excited and it came out and yeah

It got some it got some quite personal negative feedback, you know, which I Did struggle with so I very much was like no don't engage Which I think is the right thing to do. So, you know, even now I go well, I In many ways I was quite lucky because I very quickly withdrew from from that sort of online world I'm sure it's become entirely lovely since then Yeah, it's great to be fair I would say the the audio part of Gallifrey and

What base now is is nicer than the TV set? Oh, I kind of I only look at audio and books now I won't go near the TV anymore. They're too angry. Yeah, no, I'm sure you know And also, you know people are entitled to not like stuff and people are inside to say they don't like stuff And I think especially if they've paid for it They are, you know very much entitled to say that and I

But it were things where it got personal. I love it based on my age and being a new writer You know, so it did get very much he must never write again And I you know, you did a couple of people in real life said I remember once as a shopping center there was a shop called 10th planet and we used to sign autographs in it and Standing outside the shop with Rob Sherman We were waiting for someone presumably who was signing autographs and me and my wife were waiting for someone

to sign autographs and me and Rob were sort of taking the mick out of each other and I think I was I was mocking his Age despite the fact that you know, it was probably about 20 years younger than I am now And he said well at least I didn't write the rapture, you know, obviously joking and This guy next to us turned around and goes did one of you have something to do with the rapture?

Don't get me started on the rapture It didn't ask you to join our conversation So, yeah, it was it was an interesting time, but then I got to write master so and that went down a lot better Well, I think they're both brilliant. So there Thank you And I did listen to the rapture while I was in Ibiza

Oh excellent and I was in the bit of Ibiza in which it said so oh really? Oh lovely No, I've never been so one day would love to go Maybe I'll listen to the rapture name for the first time in 20 years Yeah, how many people can claim that the I went to Ibiza to the correct place and listen to it while I was well I think probably not that many came I think when it came out the Venn diagram of Doctor Who fans and people to go to Ibiza was very very very small

Which is all the reasons it didn't go down very well. I suspect these days. It's much wider because it's a much broader wider audience Due to the new series and younger literally younger people enjoying it, so I suspect there's a bit more of a But that's best when you've taken it out there to do that certainly a choice Yeah, all customs are like really yeah I know I had it ready to go just like there's one thing I need to do while I'm there just one thing Yes, listen to the rapture obviously

It was great news good, and it was sunny it was October, and it was 26 degrees So no complaints whatsoever, but we're not here to talk about the rapture as much as we do love it So just before we do dive into that villains trilogy Like like I said Joe we've had you on before it was near enough couple of years ago now We're coming up to two years. I think if I came up the date before didn't you was January?

23 23 23 so yeah near enough couple of years and You've you've done things since then Yeah, I would have recorded this in 2020 you wouldn't have necessarily know exactly what we're not to just crying doing a lot of crying Yeah, no, I've done a couple of things a big finish other than that I've been doing I mean episode two episodes of a kids TV search show new series, which is filming right now, so it's very exciting That's been it's been a process as I've been a little

Finance coming in from all different countries which means there's lots of notes coming in from all different countries I did get my one of the favorite notes I've ever had which was can you turn down the references amount of references to food in your episode? Because I said I hadn't realized I write food a lot into things because I really like food So I tend to have people talk about food a lot in my scripts and I started thinking about it and going back to my

Sarah Janes and torture them going. Yep. There's food. Yep. Yep. They mentioned food. Yep. Someone's cooking So I've done that and I've been doing some theater, which is very nice actually starting some paid theater, which is very good I've never done before That's very exciting

I've become a pescatarian. So I will rant about the evils of meat. Well, I don't but I So yeah, I've been lots of changes, but yes, I've done two things a big finish I think that have come out But I've got one coming out this month actually next month, but two days time So yeah, I wrote The first story of the sort of sequel to the Sarah Jane Adventures, which is about Rani Bannerman Road And I wrote a talk through one story featuring Yanto and Tommy and

I've got a Christmas torchet coming out this year, which is ace and mr. Colchester, which was thrill Which I'm very much looking forward to and will in all likelihood be out by the time This this makes it online. But it's got piece of writing and I'm really proud of There's four short stories and the second one in particular I'm very sort of yeah, that's I've done something I've wanted to do

Since the beginning of the year. I saw a film called all of a strangers came out earlier on this year and I Fell in love with it. I think it's a stunning piece of filmmaking. I wanted to do something That really delves into sort of the gay life of somebody say in London in the 80s So yeah, it's See how it goes down. Hopefully it'll go down well Looking forward to it. And like I say we Are we may actually have covered it in a spodkin?

Before this goes out. Oh, right. We never know we're in between series at the moment. So we're We're kind of recording a few things ready to we'll back up and running soon next month But we're just we're banking a few episodes and we thought this would be a good one to just have Ready to throw out You know if the first few episodes don't do too well we can sort of put look we've got Joe Lidster again

Bring our listeners back. That's the plan obviously Um, so, uh, anyway the the main theme let's get to our our feature presentation We're going to be talking about as I say the The villains trilogy as it's sort of colloquially known that big big finish brought out for the 40th anniversary and it was it was kind of in the build-up to zegrayas as well Which was culminating two years of a three-year relationship

Um, but we're going to do zegrayas another time. So right now it's omega davros and master Which I think are Generally universally beloved. I think it's fair to say i've i've never I've never sort of caught anybody online going. Oh, no, I can't stand davros. It's terrible and nothing like that. So

I'm gonna enter this assuming that everybody's going to be happy about it. So I'm gonna enter this assuming that everybody loves these three stories and they should do they're absolutely brilliant um just uh It was quite different for big finish Because obviously they weren't doing trilogies at the time and wouldn't really adopt the trilogy format for Quite a few years after this was probably seven six seven years before we fully got into trilogy territory

Had they done excellus by this point? Well, I was about to ask you that and hope would hope that you knew the answer I can tell you that they had because we recorded the rapture Uh, we recorded extra voices for the plague herds of excellus So you can hear me in the background of plague herds of excellus. So that would have been Uh 2002 but I think excellus came out

As a bonus one each month into it. I don't think it like dalek empire was like dalek empire. It was a an extra thing Yeah, was an excellus to give us some of the other three doctors while they did nothing but six months of paul mcgan for the The invasion of the transom midnight run After years of like no paul mcgan they're like oh people are really whining about where's colin so we need to Yeah, like did anybody listen to chimes of midnight and go oh, but where's colin baker?

He's a fan He's a to be fair probably at that time there were in the way that people are, you know People some you know some doctor who fans especially You'll find the older doctor who fans you will get people who you know, I mean loathed a tv movie So we're very much paul mcgan does not count and that seems so quaint now compared to how much of the new series has been Um, but there was i'm sure there was definitely at the time people going I won't buy these

Because the tv movie and the half human and the american stuff doesn't count um So they probably yeah, but there would have been I imagine there'd been people who wouldn't but I imagine there'd be more people that would buy them Yeah, I mean I found those first couple of paul mcgan runs to be really interesting They were sort of very forward looking we hadn't had the new series yet. So it was very much This is what?

21st century doctor who is Yeah, um, and you know, we had other attempts we had scream at the shalker and you know The little bits and bobs like that But ultimately that that was doctor who for a long time and i'm a bit too young to have been properly on board at that point, but um Part of me wishes I was part of me does kind of wish that those first couple of mcgan series were Doctor who?

It was incredibly exciting. I mean, I you know, it was very Because it just felt and it looked the covers looked different everything about it felt new and fresh um And it had an arc, you know, which obviously the old series never really had but Modern television was starting to have more arcs and things. I think lost was a big thing around then so, you know, it was it was

Was very much representing what was being made at the time. I think which then obviously the new series um immediately had arcs and stuff because That's what you expect. Yeah hmm so it's and and these this trilogy sort of loosely ties into that arc because as I said before it's kind of that build up to zegreus and that I assume that part of the brief for For that trilogy or for master certainly was to have a zegreus reference No, um, I don't think so Oh, right

I don't remember that being a thing. I think I thought I'd do it. I had no idea what zegreus was Um, I just knew it had been mentioned in project twilight and then in the eighth doctor stuff So I knew and then obviously I knew there was a story coming out called zegreus Um, but I genuinely had no idea what it was and if i'm honest right now

I don't know what zegreus is. I think it's a time lord or something But I just thought in a story that's going to be creepy and I want pure horror audio psychological creepy creepy stuff There's a nursery rhyme there that's been mentioned And I think it was put in the trailer and I think it was just that thing of going actually

That's really exciting because it's the next month's story. So yeah, no, but I think it was my choice I don't think I was asked to do it That's interesting because maybe i'm wrong, but I re-listened to them sort of recently preparing for this and I could have sworn There's a zegreus reference in each of the three. There's definitely one in omega. I'm not sure about the other two Maybe okay, I can imagine gary might have said to um nev

Because our confinities about time lords, isn't it? So It would make sense to mention zegreus whereas if maybe wouldn't endavros and obviously in mine it was a nightmarish voice um, I think Yeah, it's well, that's interesting. I always assumed it was you have to speak to gary russle. He remembers everything

I I don't remember yesterday. So I certainly don't remember 20 years ago But i've got a feeling I thought it was me but I can guarantee gary might say it was him and he'd be right Now, yeah, yeah, and I just like I say I was listening and just thought maybe there's something going on here They were obviously they were building up to this There we go um, so the first one in our trilogy is omega which explores omega brings back in collier as omega and

sort of works as a sort of sequel to arc of infinity, um, but Very much does its own thing as well. I think it's a never found in script. So it's witty it's full of moments great moments and has a very very memorable twisty cliffhanger Which when I very first heard this story had to listen to about four times to go what really really? Um, but it pulls it off. It's it's a great little story. It's

And it's a great start for this this trilogy as well. Um, naturally just because of the way I prefer my doctor who I would be Least excited about the fifth doctor story In a trilogy like this um, but no, this is this is up there with the other two, um And it's very much enjoyable. So gareth do you want to do you want to talk to us about omega get us going? Sure. Um, so i've i've always kind of struggled with arcs infinity. I've I always feel it's a very very techno babble

Heavy and kind of three doctors as well. I'm clearly team not omega I'm afraid just from just from the classic serious point of view because you've got great performances But the moment people start explaining antimatter to me bits of my brain die

So I just I just can't get on board with that. There is a spectacularly complicated Star trek original series episode about antimatter and it always just makes me just think nap pass um, but with omega with this particular release, it's It's nev fountain and he's tremendously funny and it's an incredibly grim comedy um

It's got kind of whiffs of douglas adams in it. There's a bit in it. I've written this down. Um Somebody refers to an electronic sulking machine, which is just pure marvin really Um, and it's it's it's very clever the way it kind of calls forward to things that are going to happen There's another line of joy down fooled by a convincing copy. How embarrassing which is amazing the second time you hear it um

And it's it's interesting that you were saying about peter davison. Why not peter davison necessarily the best doctor being Maybe not the one you would at a certain age want to be the lead of something in doctor. Who I felt that way in audio I like him a lot better. This is a great showcase for him because he gets to play I don't know how much we we can spoil it, right? I mean, it's pretty old but um, he gets to play I think our listeners have heard it

They might have heard it. Um, yes, he gets to play different characters basically, um, I think an interesting thing Which is which goes for all three and i'm interested to hear about the kind of genesis of master for this particular aspect Is that they all kind of try to interrogate who this baddie is, you know baddie in inverted commas Are they horrible? Are they something else and omega?

I think I go back and forth over whether this or master is kind of ultimately the most sympathetic to the character Omega I feel is very much. This is a tragic person What a pitiful figure lets we we need to

This guy needs a hug. You know, this bloke has been broken by history By and ultimately by the doctor because you know, they're merging in arc of infinity That's caused him to have he was already in a very bad place, but he's worse now because of that specifically which is so sad Um, and now he has to just relive history over and over again and I think That whole thing is just such an interesting choice to go

Um, we're we're nearing an anniversary. We want to do a story about a character. Let's bring back. Um

Sorry, anything else? Let's bring back the nighmon and say what actually what if the nighmon's, you know Got a lot on his plate right now You know, you wouldn't expect to go there and with omega of all characters because you just think of stephen thorn and his mighty booming voice The idea that that character is just going to be this this pure unfortunate person um, I just think is a really interesting take and the whole thing is framed as just this kind of Wicked comedy just like

Evil things that you find funny in it, you know characters like having their hands locked off and stuff it's Just a very very unusual Piece of doctor who in a very weird piece for peter davison, but in a great kind of challenging way and yeah, the part three cliffhanger just Oh god, like the fact I don't think I was spoiled the first time I heard that I feel very pleased about that just to get to that point and go

I don't know what I was doing the last three episodes. I was completely wrong and it's so rare that you know the rug pull like that, but But yeah, I think omega it's it's not the most kind of obviously sort of Fan-pleasing one of the three. I mean we'll get into like why those other two might have more of that to offer but It's it's kind of the oddest one in in some ways and I think

Revisiting it is always a very pleasant experience and going god. That was that was really interesting Uh, yeah, so for the 40th, I think uh, yeah big finish Did did did well, you know for us think we were quite lucky Certainly started strong. Um, it's That that douglas adams comparison is very interesting because i've made it before as well I've sort of said if if we've got douglas adams at big finish is nef fountain and he's fantastic comedy writer and

I'm a big big dead ringers fan. So sort of listen to other things. He does as well I'm gonna i'm gonna plug his books as well. If you ever read, uh, He did those mervin stone books geek. Tragedy is they're all very good But geek tragedy is just like the perfect i've not been to many doctor who conventions, but that is it That is exactly the experience. So it's really i'm gonna have to look that up then Is there anything you'd like to add about omega?

Joe um, I I haven't listened to them in 20 years But I remember when it came out, I didn't know nev at the time at all Um, and we're good friends now, but i'm then I can't remember when I did first meet him But I remember listening to omega when it came out and being slightly like Oh, that's so good. Oh, no What's going on?

um, but I think One of the things I did love about the villain trilogy generally was I think other than the excellus thing It was the first time they were doing full stories without companions and I think that allowed You to do a full story without companions and I think that allowed you to do a different type of story, so It allowed nev to do a story that can do the episode 3 cliffhanger, which it wouldn't have been able to do if nester had been there um, and I think that's

Just the genius of nev. Um, I think what a genius idea to do You know, he's really clearly sat down and gone what can I do that Come up with this astonishing. I think one of the biggest and best Beats that's ever happened in a big finished story to this day I think it's so clever and I just remember finding the story really really funny Um, because I don't I hate time lords. I hate They should always be gone

And to do a story that's a comedy involving the time lords. I think it's such a clever idea um So yeah, no, I think it's a an a an astonishing Uh piece of work. I think it's very clever very funny and very sad at plays as well There's a real the other thing nev does is there's always actually real emotion in it as well

It's not for just sitcom. Um, there's always a bit of depth to it as well um He's done a companion chronicle called perry in the piscom paradox I think it's called and that's an astonishing piece of work again very clever very funny but real emotion and emotional maturity to it Uh, which he brings to his to his writing and yes, I very much recommend is it mervin? Stone stone. Yeah, i've got where have I got i've got them

Behind me somewhere. Um, oh up there. Yes, um, and he's just got a new book out that's come out this year um Which I can't remember the name of um, but I know i'm getting it for christmas Uh, so, um, I can quickly look because it's on my christ wishlist Um, but the fan who knew too much Which I think is the start of a new Uh series he's doing um, which I can guarantee if it's anything as good as mervin Stone is going to be a brilliant

Glorious read I think i'm just sold on the name of that one. I think on the name alone. Yeah, it's such a great name

It's worth coming for yeah. Yeah again. He wrote I think he's very good like a bit like he does with the time lords in omega nev I've write about fan culture Rightfully mocking it for many things even though he is, you know as big a nerd as anybody but also Gets the actual heart of why people are fans and why we love doctor who and why we're sitting here talking about it You know things that I think he's very good being able to Laugh at himself and at fans while at the same time never laughing

Laughing sorry laughing with them but never laughing at them. I think it's what he he does It's very clever and he does that I think with omega I think all the stuff about time travel and the time lords and stuff in that if I remember rightly is very much Aren't the time lords a bit boring?

But isn't it fun that they exist and we love them, you know, we love the nonsense of You know The people around that table in the five doctors, you know, there's so much joy to be had about them Um, so I think yeah, he's a he's a really really brilliant writer I just I like to think that he looked at that, you know those around the table in the five doctors and went What if they went on holiday?

Exactly, you know, it's fantastic. It's brilliant because again, it's so doctor who You know doctor who trying to do this mysterious race of godlike beings And it's three actors sat around the lit up table and all sat on one side because it's studio setter You know and saying the most bobbins lines you've ever heard, you know And that's that's the joy of doctor who is that when he tries to do

You know, it's better when it's not doing it. So when it does do it, it's great fun Yeah Absolutely Um, so so that's one strong story down in our in our villains trilogy

Um, let's let's move on straight to story number two then which is the collin baker entry into the trilogy. It is davros um this I really really love the basic idea of this story, which is well what happens when davros is there but the daleks aren't which is ultimately the You know the sort of catch of this story um and it's great it leads into sort of a lot of the stuff that

As far as I can gather it's set before revelation of the daleks and revelation of the daleks kind of serves as a sequel to this um, i'm happy to be corrected if either of you have any of course a reference that i've not or anything like that, but Um, I really like the idea of sort of davros goes corporate um, it's it's such a great concept and

You know, I think this is the first one terry mulloy did for big finish as davros. So it's It's amazing how he just picks that character up And it's exactly the character that we had in revelation the daleks and to a lesser extent I guess remembrance the daleks um 15 years after all of that and Straight away. He is davros completely and totally davros totally recognizable amazing is the character

But doing something totally different. This is really uncharted territory for davros and when when he's not got An army of daleks to order around or he's not got to scheme against his own creations. He's kind of Left to scheme and manipulate other people um

And the results are just brilliant and i'm really glad that this story exists as far as i'm aware. We've not had another dalek-less davros story Um, I feel like it's something i've seen but I can't Yeah, it's It feels like something that i've done again Because this is so good, but i'm not I can't think of anything off the top of my head right now um and Part of me sort of wants them to do another one and part of me doesn't because it's never going to be as good as davros is

So it's i'm kind of torn on that one. Um, so gareth talk to us about davros Um, I think this might be either Either the first big finish story I ever heard or one of the first few a friend sent me copies of a couple I've bought them all since just to be clear Um, but a couple it was the holy terror spare parts and davros. So he set the bar Unfairly high I would say but uh, but no, no, no, it's all been great since but um, but yeah davros is is another

Knockout really. Uh, it's interesting. Uh, joe you mentioned that um You know, this is the doctorless thing and that's something I think we've seen so much of since especially on tv series Because you know christmas is they'll go It's it's a between period we can we can have that um that you kind of forget how weird it was Back at the time, but it works really well for these three stories because it gives the doctor the excuse to just

Crystallize and like zero in on like why I don't like that guy or you know I think the problem is going to be here. So it's it's a it's an interesting kind of production Uh choice that you you know, don't necessarily really notice. It's being important as a listener Um, but yeah, it really frees the story up So the doctor can just be the the greatest pain he can possibly be and in this he is an absolute sod Just just horrible to davros all the all the way through

Um, it's fantastic. Uh johnson like you were saying Uh with with davros gets a job is is the the the byline of this and I think that's hilarious. Um, it does kind of really Uh, it feels like the same sort of space as as revelation of the darlings that it's it's very season 22 the kind of Corporate nastiness was very big back then um And yeah, you know, there's this this idea that davros might might be going straight maybe towards the end of the story

He says he was trying to go straight. I don't think that's necessarily true, but he might even believe that Um, but it's a really great story for kind of showing the sort of lengths of his character and the kind of um You know the extremes because I think it all goes back to to you know, good old michael wisher and the bit with uh, Yes, I would I would press that button and I would do it and you know screw everyone

I would do it just so that I could say i've done it and this story has a few examples of like exactly that and you know There's a bit where he comes up with this formula that will allow him to Uh, just completely wreck the stock market if if he feels like it or more importantly Uh rig it so he could be incredibly rich and people around him are like Oh, wow, you've come up with this incredible thing that will allow you to be incredibly rich and and he's just like Yeah, I guess

Yeah, I guess it's it's better that I just use it because I can just create chaos. It's as long as we're clear I want to use it. That's that's him. He he just wants to do the thing because he's discovered how to do it

There's a wonderful. Um Flashback in it where he just he describes his uh His sort of incineration back when that happened and he became the the disfigured creature he is Um, and he says that he could see he looked at his hand and he could see his skeleton And he started just wiggling his fingers so he could watch them move and like the idea of being that far gone It's like a scientific Absolutionist that you're like i'm in tremendous pain, but this is cool and he just doesn't care um

so that's all fascinating and we get kind of and i've really no idea how the kind of um How the relationship between this story and the eye devos series works I don't know if that was already kind of on the on the go because that came a few years later But we see these little chunks of his life that would sort of get revisited in that series And again, we kind of see kind of hints of his his true character and he's kind of like He he likes to explore ideas to their to their horrible conclusion

But we also see hints of him as an emotional being he has Is it shan or shaan this person in his life? um Who ultimately he betrays and has killed? um I want to say because he finds out she's sleeping with somebody who isn't him That's that's not the reason he thinks it is he thinks it's you know, he's got this whole psychosis where he's like

Oh, no, this this guy must be a traitor and therefore you're a traitor. He's worked it all out But um this this horrible truth that he doesn't want to face is that well actually he quite likes this person And she doesn't feel that way about him So and he's just desperate not to face that and the idea that davros could have this incredibly human motivation Just buried under all of this stuff and you know to survive that he's absolutely determined to believe that um

No, I don't have anything. I don't have any emotions at all. I am a monster. You know Thank you doctor for for trying but no, no, I i'm gonna stick with evil and it's just

And it's just you just don't buy it by the end of the story. You think this is this is a this is a man with problems and He's he's allowed himself to be overcome by these Monstrous impulses that he does have um And yeah at one point he kind of refers to the doctor as being the closest thing He's ever had to a friend which is just fascinating obviously You know colin's doctor Not really gonna help that impulse along unfortunately because he's not very nice to it

Um, yeah, it's it's a tremendously kind of well cast audio Um, I haven't checked this is is it bernard horsefall? Is that yes? Yes, when we're getting that wrong? Yeah, every time I listen to it, I think Was he still around? Did they really have bernard horse? Because he I love bernard

He's amazing and anything he's in but he's great in this because you get to see some of that. Um um kind of evil corporate characters who are you know, Maybe as bad as he is they kind of as the story goes on Uh him and wendy padbury who apparently can do evil very convincingly

Um, they get to kind of mellow a bit as they kind of go. Okay. Wow I knew he'd be bad, but I didn't think he'd be that bad but um, there's there's a great early scene where um Um bernard's character has just been systematically killing people on this spaceship until one of them could open the door It's like well, I hope you get it right because i'm running out of guys here Um, so that's it's a it's a great dynamic and they kind of have this awkward relationship with the doctor where he's um

You know, he's he's trying to just go well, I can just do all of the amazing stuff that you need done You don't need davros and they want both of them, of course Um, yeah, and it's it's funny too. I mean I would say in a kind of distinct way from omega It's got a kind of season 22 uh Terrible people just just being dreadful kind of comedy workplace awkwardness the doctor, you know

Jamming screwdrivers in his ear to get out an annoying little voice in his head. Um Yeah, I would say it's probably of the three The least sympathetic to the villain character, but I think in suggesting that he has these depths that even he Is just not remotely in ready to kind of look at or interrogate Uh in a way, I think it's it's just as sympathetic because it's just kind of going well He's never gonna get any better but uh, you know

He's he's not as evil as the doctor thinks he is or as he thinks he is and that is Is sadly a comfort to him to think he's basically a Dalek but um, yeah, so It's pretty strong. I think pretty good. So yeah, it's Some really interesting points there. Like first of all, yes, it's a fantastically cast story and As you say bernard horsefall just could never do any wrong um, and I kind of love him and wendy pampery is this sort of Oligarchal double act

Um, they're absolutely fantastic. They make such a great pair and it's It really is a good character study into davros and you know We do get to see a side of him that we really really don't anywhere else um You couldn't do this story with daleks. The whole point of it is daleks aren't there

But it doesn't make a big thing about the daleks not being there. It's it's it's very much a case of Davros is just doing What he's doing and the fact that the daleks aren't there don't affect him Um, and i'm you know, it would have got in the way if we'd have had nothing but oh, but I need my daleks Where my daleks i'm going to build some more daleks you i'm going to turn you into a dalek

Which is what we get with anything else with davros in you know, we we have done experimental stuff with davros I mean joe you've done it yourself in terra firma Sort of with his identity crisis in that and that kind of thing Um, you know, we've had uh, is it the curse of is it the curse of davros?

The right one where yeah another colin one the one where him and colin do swap season the episode two cliffhanger is The doctor was davros all along and that kind of thing freaky friday with davros It's really good freaky friday with davros i've never heard it referred to as that before but that's Fantastic. Yes. Um So yeah, it's a great story and I I do think that omega Could never have fit into season 20 It is not a season 20 story at all

But davros could have fit into season 22. It could have fit, you know nicely in there just after the two doctors or whatever

Um, it's it's it's a very obvious here of a story. It does have that theme of corporate greed, which Does sort of run through quite a few stories in Season 22 so it's quite interesting that it's this one flies a little bit closer to home than omega does um and I mean masters Totally unlike anything in the mccoy era, but we'll we'll get to that in a minute Um joe is there anything you'd like to add about davros at all?

Uh, I remember it had the best trailer big finish had ever had Um, because I think lance had written a speech for davros No, no, he hadn't no because it's it jim mortimer does the sound design. So I think it might Be a jim mortimer thing because he did the music and the sound for the rapture Um, but I remember is the davros trailer was so effing brilliant. It was just so exciting Um, and also davros being back was exciting. Uh, and yeah, I'll remember it was just being uh, it being such a clever

Scripts that's really about stuff. It's you know, all the stuff about Corporate greed and and all that sort of thing is actually jim mortimer's Um, and then I'll remember is I did listen to it a few times because yeah terra firma I wrote as a sequel to basically davros and remembrance of the daleks So there's a lot of stuff in terra firma of the doctor and davros talking That slightly acknowledges the thing in davros where he says you're the closest thing i've got to a friend

Because obviously davros has had this long ridiculous

Long life where everything he's ever known is dead except for the doctor. So for me, that was what you know That established in davros really did help mold terra firma Yeah, I remember just being brilliant really really clever Yeah, just really clever Yeah, it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just It's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just Yeah Yeah

Yeah, it i've definitely picked up on that sort of terra firma following on from davros thing before it They're probably the two stories that explore the character the most I think Um, is it the juggernaut the other colin baker and davros story in which daffodils gets a job And uh the juggernauts mixed up occasionally because they do kind of do corporate davros both of them do um, but it's it's obviously a great idea it obviously works and it's worked very well in two very different ways and um

Yeah, it's it's great that Obviously you did pick up on davros and you didn't work with that to get to get where you did with terra firma, which is Is like I say another great exploration of the character um

And uh, we're joined by somebody else. We're joined by mansaur. Hello mansaur Hello Hello, thank you for for jumping on i'm glad you could join us even if it is a tad late So it's it's the seventh doctor's entry in this trilogy I mean first of all, I love the fact that this trilogy does cover The three classic doctors that big finish had at this time and obviously megan was doing megan things We've had a couple of series of him and we've got zegrayus Coming up after master, but it's

It's really kind of great that this is what they did for Kind of those doctors in the 40th instead of the simas of time two or whatever You know the temptation must have been there to kind of go. Well, let's just do that again um, but they've not instead they've used it as an opportunity to To sort of explore what makes the doctor tick by exploring what makes his most iconic adversaries and omega tick um So yeah, it's it is a wonderful trilogy. So we're on to master and

We've sort of said that you know, um omega goes very much against just standard davidson. It's not a season 20 story Davros kind of plays to colin baker's strengths and could fit into season 22 Uh master

Is it fair to say it's it's a new adventure story. Is that kind of where you were aiming for with it joe or Yeah, I'd suppose so I was Given the fact that he would be I think the main thing I was slightly rebelled against was I was told it had to be on an alien planet not on earth and I didn't and I'm not necessarily a huge sci-fi fan I like things like doctor who and star trek because they tend to tell horror stories and

And then there's a kitchen sink drama then it's a comedy then it's this I tend to like no I don't really I wouldn't you know, nobody got a massive interest in developing an exciting new alien culture planet thing um, so I had that and also I had I was given the thing that he'd lost his memory and the big thing for me Was trying to work out the Difference between omega and davros and the master is that omega and davros have backstories even if davros is is is an

Much established prior pre genesis of the daleks. You do know that at some point He's been in accident. You do know about the war on scarrow that he's you know, omega We know pretty much his whole backstory or you know, certainly a big chunk of it of what defines him as a character With the master there hadn't been that any kind of exploration and also I kind of feel Because he was created as the doctor's moriarty. He doesn't really have a massive backstory

So sometimes he wants to control the universe. Sometimes he wants to destroy things

Sometimes he wants to it's all personal with the doctor. Sometimes the doctor just happens to bump into him, you know, so I felt he's Less of a character than omega and davros which meant I really had to go Well, what am I going to do because it's clearly meant to be a character exploring story So I thought back and I actually went back to um His first story the the autons and there's a scene in that which is must have been amazing to see at the time

And still I think holds up really well, which is the scientist in the Is it a tower there's a is it a dish it's a dish isn't it? Yeah, the telescope telescope thing Yeah, and there's a scientist and he kills him and puts him in his lunchbox And I watched that and when

The master doesn't need to do that. There's no reason for him to actually kill that scientist. He could knock him out He could do anything and we know actually that scientist has a wife and he's you know Of a boiled egg and things like that So actually it gives gives gives a little character and then the master kills him for no reason and I thought and actually

That's what the master does the master kills people. So I basically Looked at serial killers, especially jeffrey darma And basically read a lot about jeffrey darma what made him become jeffrey darma And about that sort of first death that is wrong But if he got caught after the first death, he would not only would he have literally not been able to commit all the other murders But he mentally might not have done Because the first death I think that jeffrey darma does is is more of an accident

And then and I suspect that's probably a case of a lot of killers, you know serial killers is Wait a minute

This feels good and wait a minute. I'm okay doing this This is who I am and so it's kind of a justify it to yourself kind of thing So with the master when I decided I was going to do that I kind of thought back to the new adventures and thought about how they made the doctor times champion So would the master be death's champion if he's causing all this death if that's the one thing the master achieves in every story Is death that makes him death's champion?

and I then realized I suppose yeah, and as somebody who'd enjoyed the new adventures that it was quite new adventure So I decided to set it on a planet with the adjudicators from from the books and things like that. So I could do a sort of basically it's Victorian Edwardian earth, but it isn't really it's an alien planet

Which is my sort of workaround of set it on an alien planet. So yeah, I think I knew it was quite new adventure but I think also It's so funny to think back like we're talking about this trilogy and you kind of you know There'd only been one master story Since survival they'd been just be oh, I think it did a couple of new adventures, but they'd been dust breeding and then master

Davros hadn't been in it before whereas now like you say there's the juggernaut says the curse of davros says there's all these other davros stories so I think at that point I felt that the new adventures leading into the tv movie which i'd really enjoyed because I was really enjoying the new adventures

Was very excited about the tv movie. So loved that sense that they did of leading up to And stopping just before so for me master was very upset After he's left Chris I don't know how to say surname Um, and he's traveling alone before lung barrow and stuff. So for me master was always is set in that world Um, so yeah, I suppose you would call it, you know, so new adventures, but also I think To be totally honest, I never really felt A big need to make them feel like they're off their period

Um, I love it when they do. Um, I think it's so much fun when you hear a solvester. That's very clearly season 24 Um, but I as a writer never really Did that with the rapture or the master or anything? I think that I did afterwards. I don't think I ever really Set out to go. How can I make it feel like it's part of season? Whatever it is

So it's very long winding answer. Sorry. Yeah, it's basically yes. I probably went down more of the omega way of yeah, it's not You know, i'm not i'm not going this is season, you know, he's just dropped ace off I think that probably works to its advantage though It's the fact that I mean the seventh daughter has a lot of eras doesn't it? There's something you know Everyone likes to point at the seventh daughter and go. Oh, yeah, that was season 24. That was

Shortly after survival. Oh, that was towards the end of his life And it's I like the fact that with the seventh daughter we've I mean we can probably work out it is towards the end of his life But he's got this sort of muddy period where all sorts of stuff happens and he's got this sort of All sorts of stuff happens and he's sort of a terrible person to varying levels and all that kind of thing and I like the fact that it's still sort of shrouded in mystery after

Even now, you know, even though big finish have tried to pick it out and they've tried to Sort of go well this happens here and this happens there and it's It's certainly like a nice Sort of vague idea, but it's I think that is something the new adventures did. I'm not overly familiar with them I've read a few but not many But they do have this sort of very unique feel and I think master certainly leans more towards those than

season 24 at any rate. Yes Well, I think there was a thing in the new adventures if I remember rightly again, I've not read them in years, but There was a sense of the seventh doctor novels wrapping up things Yeah, that the seventh doctor was fixing things Because he knew his time was coming to an end and I think that was my thing with master was

He knew his time was coming to an end. So he made a deal with death to to give the master Ten years, I think of of a nice life Yeah, so that's really interesting because I didn't know that about kind of mentally placing in the new adventures I did read them all quite recently. I had never read them I completely missed that whole period and then I picked them up because of big finish because they did love a war and I thought Oh, okay. What else happens and read them all?

Yeah, definitely towards the end. The seventh doctor is is very much trying to get his house in order and also I think trying to Kind of atone really I think after once you reach that point where where ace leaves for good this time I think he's kind of the the book range as well as the character has kind of grown up a bit And kind of learned to you don't need to be angsty all the time But in that context, this is this is interesting because that means he's kind of like

This one's gonna be rough and he's like, okay. I'll I'll step off the I'm not that bad actually train and Yeah, so over here to something that we learn Is is one of the the sort of darker nastier things about him that he didn't necessarily know Yeah Which is by the way, I mean, this is kind of jumping ahead really but that's that's quite a controversial choice. I would say It's a kind of go The doctor I suppose yeah It didn't

I didn't think it was that controversial because I didn't think there'd be that many more stories. So I think You know, I felt I don't think we knew the tv series was coming back. Did we at that point? So I think we didn't know there was going to be a new tv series At that point big finish was 12 stories a year So I felt the likelihood of Ever ever, you know with sylvestre and jeffrey beavers ever do another audio together I didn't you know, whereas now obviously they've done loads because

Big finish does a lot more stories. So so it starts to actually have more of an impact. Whereas I think actually if it had been this one-off thing You'd have gone. Oh, you know, I don't like that. But you know, it's happened. Whereas. Yeah, I think I didn't I wasn't bothered about doing it. Um, and the thing for me was it was um What's most interesting for the character? What's most interesting?

For both characters the main characters the main characters the main characters the main characters the main characters The main characters, um, and that was the most interesting thing I could think of. Um, I thought it was And basically what I was doing was it is absolutely a reference to an unearthly child um it's literally The doctor is going to smash someone's head in with a rock um In an unearthly child and it turns out according to what?

His vague memories or dreams or what the master says are is that that's what he did as a child Um, so it wouldn't be so the caveman wouldn't have been his first one Um, if only he'd had an ian Yeah, exactly. And and my whole point was they're both they're children in it. They are very specifically children. They are nobody neither of them have set out to

Do anything? Um, you know, and they've been taken advantage of by death, but it's all A story, you know, it's like I genuinely I haven't again not heard it in years But if I remember rightly, it's all quite We don't hear we don't see it happen. It's not like the davros flashbacks. We don't actually

Get a very clear scene of it happening. We get a child saying stuff and things like that, but it's all told us a story So yeah, I mean It's probably been contradicted by a million things by now But you know that's such a for me again, I'm I'm less it's a bit like not making it fit into a certain style or season um I'm less interested in I don't care if someone

Contradicts master or people think it doesn't happen for me for that story. It had to be that very simple switch of the characters To explain the doctor and the master's actions in the story if it hadn't been that then it wouldn't have been a very good story Or it would have been a weaker story. I think and I think when you're doing a You know an audio drama Whether it's part of a series or not you you go for what is that best story? Not what?

Fits in with something else or or does that while still I think staying consistent to the characters, you know again I probably wouldn't have done that if it hadn't been sylvestre's seventh doctor, which had gone very dark in the new adventures Um and was hinted at going dark in in the tv series, you know I wouldn't have done that if I was writing a you know, if it had been a peter davison story um, I don't think I would have

Felt that that fitted in with the current the existing characterization it's interesting that it is sylvestre because um He's effectively He's he's one manipulation ahead of himself Uh, because this is famously the doctor, you know chess player and all of that and in this one we find out You know, there was a time when he did something that even he has deleted. Yeah Uh, yeah, that's that's a great idea. When I was listening to these three again, um with this story there is kind of the

Forgive me. There is the little fan voice at the head that's like oh, I don't like this. The doctor's a bad guy You know, it's it's the childish fan voice. Uh, but I thought what was really interesting was once it got into it um The doctor already feels bad because in his version of events he uh, he didn't kill anybody but he effectively

You know there was a cover-up. He worked towards that. He knows it was wrong So either way he's leaving gala fray a guilty man and that's part of that So then to later on find out well, actually it was the other thing Um kind of doesn't really change that it's still the same and I thought it was very interesting. Um Similar in a way. I don't know Well similar to omega in that there's kind of this cross pollination between the two characters the doctor and the villain

And in this one very very explicitly. It's kind of a there but by the grace of god thing where it's just You know the doctor and the master They're different people but they could have had very different lives If not for this thing and you know that you've written in the thing where the doctor kind of goes How can anyone forgive me for this? This is appalling and the master's like we were kids. It's it's it's not great But you know and this this figure

That exists took advantage of us. So so yeah, I think um It's a great kind of study of that and kind of the whole thing is just Very very themed about the motives of evil and how all these people are kind of and that's interesting that you're saying about that That like dharma was going through your head when you were writing it, you know, well, there we go There's there's a person where motives don't really enter into it

And you've got these characters all kind of talking about murders and stuff going like why do people do these things? And the idea that there is this death force that just kind of Manipulates you but even under that there are moments where um

It's interestingly the master kind of isn't in this really or not. Not very much. We've got the person but um The the voice only comes out a few times and um, there are moments where he's like, oh no, shut up I did it all and he's he's he kind of doesn't agree with death And that's that's another thing that it kind of shares with with davros really that you've got this character

Who's got these these motivations and they're like, yeah, well, that's one version. Um, yeah, and I think that's great I do think yeah separate from that Yeah, no, I was just gonna say as I think no I do think I it was probably again a conscious decision of mine to have him as a different character because I thought the master isn't someone who believe would sit down and discuss Things with well, maybe he would but I don't know I just I I grew up with Anthony Ailey's master who I adore

But he is batshit crazy. You know, he is not Someone who's gonna sit down and go. Oh doctor. Let's talk about the themes of evil Or let's talk about our childhoods, you know, um, so I suppose I grew up because I grew up with that Um For me in the case of master it wasn't like whereas I would believe the doctrine davros because we've seen them do it

The doctrine davros have had proper conversations in the tv series. You know, omega is a very Not relatable necessarily character, but he is a character with a very understandable backstory

That I can understand even in the three doctors. You can understand the tragedy of of his character. Whereas the master, you know, wears disguises for no reason and You know, yeah It's the best thing in the five doctors, which is a story full of many many best things But he's absolutely one of the best things in it Because he's just glorious and I you know and Anthony Ailey's scale is just Glorious and I you know and Anthony and he scared me as a kid

I mean he was I found him quite terrifying but he yeah, I think as a character it's harder to accept the master The guy we saw in time flight is going to sit down and have a chat over brandy You know about jekyll and hyde or whatever You might do it in his car lid outfit Yeah, exactly Well, it's an audio drama. Perhaps he's wearing his car lid outfit throughout In every release listen to it again I can see the master that we see in survival

Getting to this place. Yeah, you know in the same way that I can see the doctor that we see in survival getting to this place Um, you know, I think that's andrew carmel, isn't it? That's andrew carmel going if we're having the master in it

He's got to be a serious character. He can still be terrifying and he is terrifying in survival But he's actually got to have a very clear motive of what he is doing in that story Ravel and jest we've got antoniani on a contract So just bung him in you know bung him in a costume and stick him in a mask at the end of episode three Stick him in a mask, you know, I think you know andrew carmel, you know Who I have so much respect for he's sat there and gone if we're doing a story about the master

What is his motivation in this story? So survivor is one of the few stories where I would say he argued that he's got a very strong motivation which is hope to survive Which is you know, it's such a stunning piece. I think that's one of mainly his best performances as well It brings out like a much more threatening Take on his character. Well it's threatening but also

Even someone like him or I don't I never met him but you know by all accounts. He just wanted to play cricket or something um Anybody like that?

You know there are actors who you know, I imagine do a big finish now who genuinely don't really care about doctor who they're doing it Because it's money they're doing it because they get to see their friends and everything like that But no matter how much there might be like that you give them something like survival And you're like, oh, yeah, this is why I act, you know, it's not just ripping off masks and and being you know menacing

It's actually i've got a proper character and i've got a thing of you know, i'm seducing midge I could you know in previous stories I could just hypnotize people but there he's really got this sort of seducing thing going on, which is brilliant Um, you know, so yeah, I think Anthony is Anthony and he's brilliant in that story Because he's written as you've got to do some acting, you know, you can't just be panto villain

I feel like sylvester is at his best when he's got good material as well. I think he Yeah, I think he really rises to the job. But I think any actor does I think genuinely any actor you you give them Especially something like doctor who are dark shadows, so dark shadows as a range I produced and i'm thinking of an actress in that

Nancy barrett and she got to play all these different characters and she's big and bright. She's brilliant She's great actress and it's big and fun and we did a story where her character became an alcoholic In the audios and her performance is absolutely astonishing and I think it's the same with any actors They they can have fun with parts of that but there are times With dot two or dot shadows or with any sort of that sort of i mean star trek the next generation

And you know the star treks do it, you know, sorry actor from star trek for 20 episodes of this season You're standing there saying technobabble But for one episode or for two one episode your parents are back or the second episode everyone thinks you're dead You know you get an episode where you get to do the actual acting and I do think that with With you know, that happens a lot with with somebody like antony ailey, you know Yeah

was that a conscious thing then with with jeffery because I think uh, It's interesting that if you if you imagine it's 2003 now, then you say we're going to do a story with with omega There's probably going to be some people who are like, oh They couldn't get stephen thorn. Oh, that's a pity or like with mastey kind of thing. Oh, antony ailey

We can't get him anymore. You've got these two actors you have done the role but Some would argue the story not through any thought there's you know Didn't give them a huge amount to do or or wasn't their finest hour and with omega you've got obviously that weird torda force performance there And with master, you know, you've got this absolute kind of throwing jeffery beavers who is Unbelievably great but the kind of giggling menace thing

but if you kind of throw him into a negative and you have this character you spend the whole time with this guy that you Really like and you kind of feel that you've got this kind of bubbling menace and there are these moments where he kind of um You know deliberately sort of toys with saying nasty mean things and that must have been quite a kind of uh pleasant shock for some listeners who are like Oh We're incredibly lucky that jeffrey beavers is is doing this

Um, and he's gone on to just be the synonymous kind of big finish guy. Yes, which is brilliant um, and he's such a nice guy, but he um Um, I remember just listening to dust breeding and being like wow, what an amazing voice. Um, I have seen the dead the assassin. Is it the dead the assassin he's in? Oh, that's the other one keeper trochan. He's in keeper trochan. So i've seen keeper trochan, but He doesn't even do a lot in it. Does he really?

You know, it's dust breeding was where I went. Oh, that's a voice. That's brilliant. Um And that was one of the big moments in big finish history The reveal of the master in dust breeding because like you we had no idea I had no idea. I was listening to it and just went oh Right. Okay, that's happening. Um, but yeah, so it was that but also actually what it did do That was great was it gave me

The chance to although obviously you can't see the visuals. He looks hideous um, and so actually what you have is you have A character who looks hideous but isn't a bad person is a good very good person who saved a lot of lives And you have him in I love the idea of him being again. I watch ghosts like growing up, you know That's imprinted on my brain and it's very much that thing of seeing horrible things but happening in a gorgeous victorian Wood paneled room, you know, and I think

That was a big thing being able to go. All right for this for this character He can say that he looks hideous and then I I'm so bad. I haven't listened to it in years. Has he had an affair with the woman? He Does she fancy him? But he he she loves him. She fancies him. She loves him even though he looks Awful Um, which again, I just quite liked that idea of doing something a bit unexpected um In that way, I have to ask this is not really related to what you've just said

But was it in any way inspired by human nature? Because you've got a time Lord who is out of their mind and called john smith That just tickled me halfway through. I suddenly thought oh, it's quite like that. It's the master's version No, I was I was given the fact that the master

Had lost his memory the master was on the alien planet and he's lost his memory and it's sylvester. That's what I was basically given um because I think Have scott and maybe mark right or maybe just one of them had been working on the idea and They'd had to drop out because they were doing One of the project stories and so gary asked me because i'd done What he saw as good character work in the rapture?

Which as I say was thankfully not yet released um So he knew that I would be someone he'd be interested in seeing what I would do with the character Um, so yeah, no, it's funny because you again i'd love to human nature. Um But yeah hadn't crossed my mind at all Um, I think I just did john smith because that was always the joke It's yeah, it does feel like a pointed joke at the doctor's expense Yeah, he always calls himself john smith. So I just thought

You know, it would be funny, you know, it would make sense for him to be called john smith. Also, it's quite tricky I think Coming up with a different name. I'm sure at one point I tried to do an anagram, but I couldn't do it So it's quite tricky to come up with a name that Feels slightly iconic. You know what I mean? He can't if he was just called derek

He'd be like, all right derek. Yeah, are you really the master? Whereas john smith comes with for a doctor who fan listening to it the loaded Connotations of how the doctor calls himself john smith, you know, that's his fake name um, and of course Oh, i've just realized that It's been 20 years. I've just realized because So he's using the doctor's name and he should have been the doctor all along Clever well done

20 odd year old me that was that was quite clever. You've you've done a seventh doctor. You've manipulated ahead of yourself. Yeah Yeah, I have i've yeah juggled all the balls. Uh, yeah If you want I can edit that bit out and we can pretend it was the plan all along No, no, don't i'm awful for it. I did a torture this year though last where it came out this year James goss asked me at the recording. He did a little q a afterwards and he said so when did did

And I was like, what do you mean? He went well how the story does it and went Oh, I didn't realize it did that I'm not necessarily the most intelligent of writers. I just write it and then i'm like, oh yeah, that does make sense I suspect that's a running theme with doctor who though like a lot of the brilliant stuff is

By accident by accident. Yeah, totally. Yeah, absolutely. I mean master is absolutely fantastic. It's It really does drill down on a character that as you say has never properly been explored It's amazing really that this is the first proper exploration of that character um and Giving him, you know the role that you do that that john smith persona um

I really love that first episode where like the doctor's hardly in it. He has a few lines at the start and then turns up the cliffhanger Uh almost as if he's the villain of the story like that's a horror ending reveal the cliffhanger reveal who's the villain Yes, that was that was definitely intentional at the time of going He's when the master turns up or the daleks turns up this time It's the dotstone because it's the disruptive force that's going to destroy the lives of these three really

Quite nice people. I think they're probably not as obviously not as nice as they seem but you know Um, he is the master. One of them's been doing a bit of murder, but well, yes. Yes But murder's aside. We don't know that. He's quite a nice bloke. Yeah Um and again fantastic bit of casting philip maddock, you know, like wow astonishing Yeah, it was it was and of course that thing, you know philip and dan have gone now, but um, I remember them being

Being such a friendly cast. It was such a really nice Recording it's really hot. I remember that but you had Jeffrey and Sylvester and philip All of whom were you know a good I would say 20 years older than say me Um probably older than that and then you're charlie haze playing the maid stroke death And she was I think she's younger than me and I just remember it being so like she was They all found her really sweet because she'd highlighted her lines in the script

Um, whereas they sort of these old pros who had these stories to tell and it was just a really really lovely thing And they really did that thing that I think I certainly took away from it Um as a writer it is Philip I remember philip said knew I was in the recording booth, I think and he knew was there and he said he made a very Point of stopping and saying I just want to say what a brilliant script this is

Which you know, I think he was telling the truth, but it was that real thing that you learn from it of going Every writer and actor need you know It takes you 30 seconds to absolutely make their day and let them know that this is you know

You're doing something good and I think he I really got that from him. So, you know, I was always i've done it with actors I know and with other writers when i've scripted it or produced or directed Um, it was just you know, you can learn from you learn so much from someone like philip maddock just an astonishing Actor and an astonishing voice. Um, and a really really lovely man

So it was yeah, I don't even think at the time I realized what an ornith was. I was writing for someone like philip maddock And I think I was just like oh great cast always knee in the dalek film, you know I don't think I was fully aware of actually what uh, what an amazing Actor and he was and what a great career he'd had I think one of the one of the best things i've ever heard philip maddock do is the audiobook to um alan garner's weird stone of brazingaman Which is sort of set around

Where i'm from? All right, what a voice just it brings a it's a good book But really really brings something to it really brings it to life and But yeah, maybe it's I mean master is just a it's a drama full of voices to just die for isn't it? Yes astonishing. It's one of the best collections of incredible audio voices

That must be it feels like a play as well. I imagine that would have appealed to uh, a big part of it um a big influence on me was uh amadeus uh the um Peter schofer play because i'd done that at school and that was What made me really want to be a writer because i'd done a lot of amateur dramatics um And school plays and everything about school plays tended to be and I love them But they tend to be musicals like sweet charity and the king and I and

And all sorts of things you probably wouldn't be putting on these days in a school um and then When we were in our sixth form, I didn't do the drama a level even I really wanted to we couldn't make it fit with the ones that other ones I did want to do but I basically skived off lessons to take part in their a level their production of amadeus and I played salieri in it and And I don't mean this is a bit of a brag but I

Was great because I really got that my best mate played amadeus and he his mom who loved me Was like I can't look at you right now. Um a year later I was working on a supermarket checkout and someone said oh my god You gave me nightmares a year ago But I realized what allowed me to do that was what a brilliant script it was and I think that's when I realized

Actually acting isn't for me. What I want to do is Not you know never have achieved anything like amadeus but to write something that gives actors good things to say And good things to perform and I think with master There was that sense of it's a two it's effectively, you know, there's amadeus mozart and salieri

So there's two people there's the master and the doctor. There's two people So I think it takes a lot from that and that sort of classical vibe to it but also it was me going I I want Actors to really have good stuff to do and I think you know that gives it more of a sense of it being a play because you know

All doctor who can't be like that. I mean again, we were very lucky with the villains trilogies I always say, you know when people say that the favorite doctor whose story is blink I'm like, but it's not a doctor whose story it's absolutely it's brilliant Because it's not a doctor whose story because it wouldn't work if it was a normal doctor whose story So and it's the same with the villains trilogy they work because we haven't I was gonna say lumbered

I love the companions, but we haven't got the companions in so it allows us to push the boat out Or allowed us to push the boat out and do different things and I think you know master would have been very different It wouldn't have had that play sensibility to it if it had heard mel or ace in it That really plays to the strengths of audio drama because one approach is okay We're on audio we can just like go crazy and have like an unlimited budget and

There's a place for that. I think it can work really well if it's like, you know painting visual pictures. It's a skill in itself, but Yeah, it's like the ones that I remember the ones that stand out like deadline is another one but that you could just easily see people like transferred straight to like a stage production and

They're the ones that I think that really get inside your head as an audio. Yeah And then you know, they're the ones probably least like the old TV series, which we all love But again, I suppose it's like I said earlier on I never really had any interest about Trying to do that Even though say I love the Davros story because Davros if you close your eyes you are back. I am back to being

Whatever. I was 10 years old watching Revelation of the Daleks because it it's great because it captures that and I love the fact that This world exists where there are stories that really go for you are watching season 20 And then there are stories that just don't do that at all And I think for me the preference was to not do To do that and I think with master by not having a companion in you know, Sylvester had never been without a companion So to have him not have a companion allows a greater

There's more opportunity for for it to be more like a play So I was just very lucky and honored to sort of get the opportunity to do it I think if ace have been there he would never have heard the end of it She'd never let that one go I don't know there's a version of ace You know if you've done the version of ace like using ghost light the quieter angrier ace and maybe she's working in the kitchen with the maid

And everything else it wouldn't be as good not as good that sounds statistical, but it wouldn't be the same story It'd be a very different thing Because also you'd want to give her agency to want to give her something to do and there really isn't room in that story For an extraneous character with nothing to do with you again We were very lucky with the villains trilogy because by taking out the companion

It takes it means you can really focus on that relationship between the two the doctor and the the villain of the story Because you haven't got another character who you you know No writer worth their salt wants to have a character who isn't doing anything So, you know if you've got a companion you want them to be an active and a protagonist in the story Especially on audio because you forget that they're there if you're not Yes, I mean absolutely You know that's such a big thing you have to

Yeah, worry about an audio is that I think I don't tend to worry about writing audio But the one thing you do have to go is is a character in a scene and they've not been mentioned so far Because it takes you out of the drama because you go have they been there all this time? I don't remember that you know So it's always a when I was script editing. It was always the note I would always I'd always gave is go we don't know this person's in the scene

I don't know if they've been eavesdropping. I don't know if they're in the scene. I don't know if they're standing next to them Go back and make sure we are aware when they come into the scene I think that just going back to what we're saying about You know the doctor being on his own companion this it's something that's been Explored quite a lot since like the new series likes to do a christmas special with the companion Just stopping off elsewhere for a little while all that kind of thing

But it hadn't really been done at this point At all had it you know we'd had the deadly assassin and that was it for 26 years of doctor who and I loved the deadly assassin It's fantastic and but it doesn't exactly take advantage of the fact that the doctor's on his own beyond Tom Baker getting to talk to himself a little bit. Yeah, which was the purpose of the exercise. I believe but Yeah, exploring that idea in In 2003 must have been quite I suppose we've done it in sirens attack

But apart from that, you know sirens time against other things. Yeah, so it's just a big fun Look, we can do dr. Who thing whereas I think the villains trilogy and it all comes down to gary russell The villains trilogy is gary going we're going we are Celebrating the 40th anniversary of dr. Who This is it. There is no tv celebration. We are the people celebrating the 40th anniversary of dr Who what do we do? I don't want to do that

I don't want to do the five doctors again. Yeah, so let's give all three doctors the first three doctors a really strong character-led story that Again, I don't want to sound You've got nev fountain and lance park and you've got two very Distinct writers you've got nev who we like you say is is basically Um douglas adams of his of our day, I would say and you've got lance parking who is so entrenched in the new adventures and What he did in new adventures, which is astonishing

And then you've got me who is a very new young person approaching it very much as i'm writing a story Not i'm writing a doctor who story and I think what you end up then is these three very distinct stories Rather than Let's just you know have daleks, you know, and things like that Um, which i'll end inky then does in in segreus by not having people playing the characters. They are in the tv series Um, you know, it's it's again. It's just gary going. Let's actually creatively

Try something here. That's a bit different to what people might expect I think some of the most interesting anniversary stories have been in extended media for dr Who because I think there was the scream of the shark that was the same time But then like five years previously one of my favorite books is the infinity doctors Yeah, which again does it does? It's a book you could have all the you could do the eight doctors again. Um, But is that lance parking again?

Yeah, yes. Yeah. Well, I mean that's it. He was you know Him paul connell and kate orman and that were the you know, the absolutely defining voices weren't they of the new adventures and then the the the um eighth doctor books, but um You know, I think You know, yeah, it's when when it tries it's something a bit different which you can do partly because you're only trying to sell it to a fan audience

You know you you if you're doing a tv series to do the 20th anniversary of doctor who you want to do the five doctors

That's what a general audience want. You want your mom sitting there going. Oh, that's the one I used to watch and you know And that you don't want an analysis of the doctor's relationship with omega Yeah, that's that's that's not what my mom's going to sit down and watch So I think that is that thing about the extended media is is because it's aimed at the fans You have a bit more freedom to so that be less, you know mainstream which is why it's cool when

Extended media takes up that opportunity rather than I think so. Yeah, the six doctors and the seven doctors Because because we don't need that we've had that we've had it a few times

And I think it's diminishing returns. Isn't it? I do think you know the first time the new series I mean I can proudly say I'm I wrote the first appearance of the old doctor who's in The sero jane adventures that predated the next doctor Um, so I was the first one to do it and then you're the next doctor and it was amazing and I think there is this

If you keep bringing them back because you can bring them back. I mean, that's the thing We know you can it's a different world to how it was back in the day You're dealing with actors who are probably retired now So they will you know, happily come back Certainly on audio You can record anybody at any time, you know

I did a dark shadows series 13 part series. I think had about 40 speaking characters in it None of whom acted together at all Everybody acted separately, you know, you can do anything on audio and to a certain extent you can do that with tv a lot more now You can just bring back anyone and do anything because It's not a multi-camera studio setup So, you know, how can we get fraser hinds and wendy pabrine on the same day when he's in emmerdale and she's you know

It's like you don't have to worry about that so much With the way the television is made these days It's a lot easier to get someone into a cameo, but I do think it is diminishing returns. Frankly, it's um Oh look there they are Well before we before we wrap up because i'm aware we're running out of time. Yes. I've got to cook my dinner

Yes, this did me too. Uh, this has this has led me to kind of one more question actually which was How did we feel about what the 60th anniversary did sort of bringing david tennant back as a new doctor?

In terms of celebrating an anniversary How how did we feel about that because I know that there are kind of varying opinions of this is absolutely amazing it's great to have the old team back and Oh, well couldn't we have done something new or couldn't we have got sylvester mccoy in it even though he was in power of the doctor

A year before that kind of thing. So I think power of the doctor kind of jumped the gun a bit Right did yeah, we kind of had the 60th on the 59th didn't we some of them I think thought they were in the 60th But yeah, um It that one scratched that itch quite well. I thought but uh But uh, yeah, I thought the the 60th stories were more kind of forward-facing for me

A bit more introspective than like this. Yeah, the power of the doctor had that five doctors vibe in a good way I thought I liked it but like um I was sort of against it in principle when I heard he was coming back because it's like let someone else have a go And I was like there's a video that emerged recently from his first era where he's he's like talking to a fan and going Oh, maybe in the future you could be the 14th doctor and then he came back and he was there as a full doctor, but

Actually, I really liked that trilogy of episodes. Um, I did like Uh the full series as well, but I think I I actually prefer that trilogy of specials. There's something that feels like Coherent about them at the same time as they're like wrapping up arcs from like 10 years ago as well. Yeah Yeah, I thought it was great fun. I think you know if

It's difficult as a slightly older person for me. David Tennant was just the doctor about two weeks ago You know, it seems odd he could go back, but it's not he's literally a generation ago It's like if the old series had brought back Tom Baker, you know who? With no disrespect to any actor involved would be arguably the most popular doctor Tom Baker and then David Tennant. They're not necessarily my favorite by any stretch of the imagination

But they would be the most popular one. It's a big news story. It gets people watching But also I think what it did brilliantly was he didn't just come back He she regenerated into him and that was interesting that that's a story that never been done before So I personally found it really really really interesting and I loved the story on the spaceship

That was just a doctor and donna. I thought that was a proper classic episode of doctor who so worth it just for that one Yeah, absolutely Absolutely

It we kind of got a mini russell tdv series from the whole thing. We got the fun opener We got the yeah We got the midnight the blink the kind of different one and then we got the big grand finale All in the space of three weeks and that was that was kind of wonderful to have and it was a really good You know There are sort of arguments where it doesn't celebrate all of doctor who was like no But it celebrates doctor who's success and it celebrates one of its most successful areas

Yeah, and it's doing something a bit different which is yeah, and it it's brought back an actor who is just so intrinsically linked with the role that Why the hell not? You know Absolutely. Yeah Well, I I think we've broken the record for the longest episode of this podcast ever crikey We've we've we've passed an hour and a half. I don't think we've ever done that before so So this is probably a very good point to say some emotional goodbyes. So

Thank you so much for joining us again joe. It's been wonderful to talk about a Very interesting part of doctor who history actually sort of that You know, how did we do the 40th when it wasn't on telly that kind of thing? You know, we we didn't have dimensions in time. We didn't have day of the doctor What a shame Can't believe I mentioned those two in the same sentence At the time and talking about like classic anniversary stories

I mean, that's a whole other episode which uh, you can come back and join us for if you want jeff. Yeah So yeah, thank you very much for joining us joe. It's been great to have you back on the podcast. That's right. Thanks for having me It's been great to speak to you. Yeah, big. Thank you to gareth as well Thank you

And a big thank you for mansour for jumping on for the last half. Thank you Thank you So we'll uh, we'll be back to talk about more doctor who big finish audio drama all sorts very soon But for now it is goodbye. Thank you