The Story and the Engine

You're listening to a podcast of Spirulius Verity. Hello, and welcome to a podcast of spurious morality. I'm Johnston, and with me again this week, I have Mansell. Hello. Hello. So we're continuing through the new series of Doctor Who. We're doing the story and the engine this week, which is, it's proved to be quite an interesting episode in terms of reception, I think. It's very different for Doctor Who. In fact, it struck me as a little bit big finishy. But in a good way, a good Big

Finish. TV Doctor Who doesn't normally explore non -European locations, for example, except the odd trip to America. It was a very sort of, I guess, high concept story by TV Doctor Who standards. Did Big Finish not exist? If Big Finish didn't exist, this would be a completely out there, different kind of story. But I think, I actually think it's not because we have had Big Finish and Big Finish has enabled the Doctor to explore sort of more interesting locations

than London and Cardiff. But overall, good episode, I thought. I enjoyed it. I'm going to jump straight in with I enjoyed this one. It was... sort of an interesting one. And it did different things. And it's good to see, even with a reduced episode count, we are doing different things. I really appreciated that. What were your sort of thoughts

on it, Mansoor? Yeah, for TV Doctor Who, it's refreshing that after 50 plus years, they can still do stories that feel... fresh and unique for tv but like i said that not so much big finish but what my first thought was um uh like the the novels like both the bbc novels for the eighth doctor and the virgin uh new adventures for the seventh because of well firstly this whole season has been focused on this god's arc but then the the particularly heightened magical realism stuff

that was going on in this story that felt very very like some of the stuff that was going on in the novels um so so yeah in good ways again like like like other stories this season reminding me of some of the best extended media stuff i have seen reviews that have sort of said it managed to squeeze a lot of the depth that you get in those new adventures novels into a 45 50 minute episode which It's hard to argue with. There

was a lot of really good stuff in there. Yeah, I think the pacing stuff is still a thing for this whole era, like every week. And again, like in a good way in that I've seen people as well say that this could have been a two -part story and I've seen that comment about a lot of episodes

this season. And again, I see the logic in not losing people's attention and rattling through a story and thinking about the risk of people second screening it and having their phone in their hand and being desperate to hold on to their attention. But yeah, I wish sometimes we could just let things breathe just for an extra 10, 15 minutes. And you mentioned Ghost Light. It made me think of that story a lot in that

I watched it. And the first time, I didn't really 100 % understand what was going on, but I just had this feeling that it was something special and interesting that I wanted to go back to and that I wanted to put the effort into understanding more. And I think it was the same with Ghostlight, that it wasn't intended to be so hard to figure out. maybe something that happened along the way in production where things got shortened and it got squashed down and bits were lost.

And I feel like almost the same has happened with a lot of episodes in this season of Doctor Who. But it's, I mean, I completely agree with you. You know, I said, obviously, I got kind of big Finnish vibes from it, you know, some of the more experimental monthly range stuff. But at the same time, you're right, Ghostlight is a... is a great example, and I suppose Warrior's Gate is the other one that comes to mind immediately.

Episodes that, it's all there, like everything is there, it's all available for you to figure out, it's all there for you to piece together, but maybe it just takes more than one go, more than one watch. It's asking questions of you as a viewer, it's giving you things to interpret, and some very sort of abstract ideas and concepts in there. And that's great. I don't want Doctor Who to do that every week. Sometimes I do just want Monster Bad, Rundown, Corridor, press big

red button to make it all go away. But Doctor Who's very guilty, well, new Doctor Who, is very guilty of having a bit of a mid -season lull. And it doesn't seem to be happening here. We've just had two very good, very enjoyable mid -season episodes. I really do think this series is going from strength to strength. And this episode is just an example that, you know, not everything does have to be directly linked to the ongoing

storyline. I know we're sort of playing with the themes of gods and storytelling and that kind of thing, which we've had quite a bit of. So we're still playing in the same themes, but we're not necessarily linking anything directly to the current storyline. You know, there were references to gods, but these gods weren't. It's a different type of gods. Yeah. Toymaker and

Sutec, they were sort of... Well, they were Earth -based, because they talked about the number of people affected, and they didn't talk about the whole universe. I think he talked about the population of Earth. So it was almost like these were semi -mythological beings that tied very specifically to the cultural history of Earth. That it wasn't the SUTEC thing of they are these universe -spanning aliens that are worshipped

on many worlds. It was Earth deities. Yeah, which, like I say, it means we're still playing with those themes, but we're doing it in a slightly more, in some ways slightly more grounded, in other ways slightly more fairytale -like, I guess. But the whole thing definitely sort of played with the idea of fairy tales and folk tales and that kind of thing. And I thought that was good.

I liked seeing that in Doctor Who and I liked seeing it done that way in Doctor Who because it's very easy to be a bit too on the nose with the idea of a fairy tale maybe or, you know, linking things to a myth. You know, we've had, I don't know, Underworld is just the retelling of a Greek myth. Horns of Nymon is and all that kind of thing. And it's just a sci -fi retelling. This wasn't that. This was very much based in the Doctor Who universe and the way it is and

the way we understand it. And I did particularly enjoy that. I also liked the fact that the setting

was significant. um lagos but it wasn't linked to any sort of historical event usually we visit somewhere like that it's linked to some historical idea or figure or event and we we didn't have that it just happened to be the place where the doctor was this week um and i liked that as well you know it let the setting live and breathe because it was about the setting and not not a person um Which, again, Doctor Who's very guilty of hooking things like this to an individual,

a historical individual or whatever. Or an event like Partition with Demons of the Punjab, which I liked as an episode. Yes. And it did have characters as well to give it that human dimension, but it was a story about Partition and the effect on people. Yeah, very much so. Whereas this didn't feel the need to do that. This had its own thing to do, but I thought it used the setting very effectively. I thought it used it very well and kind of let us explore the Doctor's, what the

race he appears as now, I suppose. It's allowed for a bit of conversation about that, which has been brushed. You know, brushed past, brushed around, brushed over, I guess, is being mentioned in passing, but we've never had any kind of sort of real acknowledgement of it. And, you know, how the doctor feels as though certain people do treat him differently now. And this is something we missed in the Jodie Whitter career, I think,

as well. I think we maybe needed something, you know, we never really explored the fact that the doctor was a woman. There's little bits. There was a little jokey moment. And then like in the Witchbinders, there was a bit more to it. But yeah, I definitely would have liked more of that. I'm completely speculating, but I wonder

if it was like an anxiety. And maybe there's something about, I liked her costume as well, but maybe there was something about that filtering into her costume choice of, oh, let's make it something kind of cool looking, but also potentially a bit androgynous in terms of silhouette. And maybe there was the same thing with engaging with those ideas. But I feel like they've done it a fair bit in this season, like with Lux,

setting it up. There was, I think, just the right amount there and then talking about it a bit more explicitly here and the conversation with Belinda as well to bring it out a bit more. Yeah, it's good to see that it's maybe been a slow

journey, but we are acknowledging. um the fact that the doctor's not just a white bloke anymore um and that that it should be doing we should be doing that you know it's people are perceived differently based on whatever characteristic you want to name and therefore the doctor is able to change those characteristics therefore the doctor will be perceived differently um so it's definitely something that should be explored and i'm i'm glad we've done that So one drawback

I can think of with this episode, it was doing an awful lot, it was giving the audience a lot to think about, but I'm kind of concerned that Belinda got relegated to the background a bit here. She spent a fair chunk in the TARDIS, she comes out of the TARDIS, she wanders round, she meets... For some reason, one of the kids from Space Babies, we haven't quite figured that one out yet, and then enters the barbershop and doesn't do particularly much from that point onwards.

And it's fine. We've had episodes before where Companion has been sidelined, Doctor has been sidelined. But again, it's an eight -episode series. We had an episode last week where Belinda was in one scene. I feel as though that we're nearly three quarters of the way through the series and for a quarter of it, we've not really spent any time with this new character, which, you know, a bit of a concern in a longer season. It wouldn't bother me at all, even in a 13 -episode

season. I probably wouldn't even notice. But it's the fact that of the, what have we had now, seven, six, five, five episodes? Five episodes we've had. Belinda's not really been around for two of them, or she was barely in one at all and hasn't had much to do here. I know that I've sort of complained about a number of episodes in the season before, and I know it's a very, very easy thing to do as a fan, go, ooh, I want

more. And I'm well aware there's probably a very good production reason we're only getting eight. I'm judging by how fantastic the series looks that a lot more work is going into those eight episodes than perhaps went into 13, 20 years ago. But I really do feel that it's costing getting to know companions. And we've had two companions in. or 18 episodes by the time this series ends. And I still don't feel as though we got to know

Ruby. In fact, I feel as though we got to know Ruby quite a lot more last week, as I said, when we were discussing it. And I have the same concern about Belinda. Like, really, we've had three and a bit episodes of her at this point, and we are... heading towards the end of the series

now. It could well be that, considering Russell T Davies has said there's some kind of reveal in next week's episode, it could well be that we're kind of stuck in that kind of finale zone where there isn't much room for change or development or that kind of thing. And I just hope we've not missed an opportunity to get to know Belinda better. I guess with Ruby we got... We had an episode that was completely Ruby -based in the last season and we did get to know her a little

bit more. We've not had that with Belinda and evidence would suggest we're not going to because the next three episodes appear as though they're going to be quite significant and I don't think we're going to take a week off to just hang out

with Belinda for a bit. Yeah, it's... agree and especially as I think I've enjoyed her character a lot more I think she's been given a bit more dimension than Ruby from the start I think she's been better served by her first few stories and script to give her a bit more depth at the same time we've kind of had this rerun and recap at the start of every episode now of her reminding the doctor to get us home and it feels like almost like a recap for the audience's benefit in case

you're just tuning in that week to like remind us of the setup of the show like the intro to quantum leap and just just uh just like restate the mission of getting a home um and i see the logic of that but i also hope that we don't keep hammering that too much and we just do continue to see more dimensions to her in the last three

episodes But I think you're right. Like, if this was like a 13 -episode series or Belinda was sticking around for more than one season, I don't think there was much need for her to be in the second half of the story. She wasn't bad when she turned up, and she was given a very sort of active role and had some impact on the story. But it was quite, I felt like she slipped into

quite a generic companion mode. And I don't feel like loads of time has passed, but she almost had a lot of knowledge and skill that was very doctorish, and I didn't know how that developed so quickly. Have we had a time jump or a gap, do you think, at some point? Maybe after episode three? I get the impression that maybe, yeah, after the well, and maybe they were doing...

other stuff while Lucky Day was going on. It feels like we've had a jump, but she's still saying, Doctor, you need to get me home now, so it doesn't feel like it's been a big jump. But tonally, maybe we've had room for a few novels in there or something like that. I think there must be something, because she's not had a rest since Robot Revolution. And she's human. She needs to sleep. And also just tonally, the well

was pretty traumatic. And it feels like there must have been some sort of gap between that and then kind of the way things feel in this episode. I don't think the fact that she got shot in the well has been referenced at all since, has it? Oh, yeah. I didn't know. I was thinking about just the episode in general. But yeah, she got shot and she died. Yeah, didn't die, but got shot and had to recover from getting

shot. Yeah. Even with sort of TARDIS medicine, I'd like to think getting shot on an alien planet when you're being stalked by some horror creature is going to traumatise somebody a little bit. Like, that's the sort of thing you'd expect to happen. But, yeah, it's not been mentioned again. Even to even mention the Mara at the start of

Mordred Undead, you know. Yeah, so it feels like the big finish box set might start there and she is a little bit understandably traumatised and then get to the point of where she's a bit more relaxed and happy and maybe time has passed for her to watch the Doctor and pick some stuff up from him. I'd hope so. Yeah, it's feeling very rushed, which, fine, we knew that was going to happen going into it. I wasn't 100 % convinced

I wanted a new companion in this series. I'd have been quite happy if we'd have just carried on with Ruby as we did last series, you know, picked up, second sit. But I know Russell T. Davis likes to change his regulars around, and Belinda is a brilliant character. I don't want to play the... Who's the better companion game? But I think just in terms of how the characters are written, I think there's a lot more potential

with Belinda than there is with Ruby. Just my concern is we're not going to get to properly see that potential. Maybe, because we're most of the way through the series now and haven't spent that much time with her still. You never know. Maybe we'll get something a bit more Belinda

-centric. Well, you mentioned I got the stuff for the finale, and I was thinking just after this episode, oh, you mentioned the Space Babies as well, and I was just thinking how all of these, there are quite a few lingering threads and mysteries that need to be wrapped up in the next three episodes, or at least acknowledged, you would hope. So Mrs. Flood obviously feels like a given.

now we have this new space babies thing we have the boss and is that the same as mrs flood or is that someone different um we have like what's happened to the earth we've got no indication of what's actually going on there and presumably reverse that um i'm sure there's more like i think i think it seemed i expect ruby and conrad are both going to be back uh mel is going to be in it um It feels like a lot, and I'm expecting a lot of this won't be in the Interstellar Song

Contest, because a lot of that's going to be in space, and some of these elements are quite Earth -based. So that's a lot to squeeze into the last two episodes, and yeah, I think you're right. How much space does that leave for any detailed introspection or character development for Belinda? Have we had confirmation of the length of the final episode yet? Because I know it is getting a cinema screening, isn't it? Has

that said how long it is? It probably says somewhere, but I think if it was longer than 50, 55 minutes, we would have heard. That's what I'm thinking. Is it going to be one of those, you know, actually it's 75 minutes type things, but there's no indication,

is there? No, and I feel like if... like you say the cinema listings must be up and if if it was that sort of running time i feel like we would know by now people will be talking about it i'd assume um and and these episodes have run quite short like uh was it children where we tended to get like longer episodes that were like bumping up against an hour sometimes and it feels like we've gone the other like weirdly in the age of streaming we've gone the other

way to like squeeze into like a very specific broadcast television slot of 45 minutes I'm just trying to find the episode lengths now because yes I think you're right yeah 46, 44, 47 46 and 47 we've had so far so they've all beaten 45 minutes and I remember the days when an episode would come in at 42 minutes and, oh, that's it, it's a disaster and the series is being cancelled

because it's three minutes short. I don't know, is this... I wonder if this is, rather than broadcast schedules, given that the international distributor is Disney +, is this again like the anxiety of holding people's attention and just, is this

like some sort of limit that... Russell T Davies has set for himself or maybe it's budget as well but like when you're making when you're making it with like a heightened budget and production quality an extra five minutes costs a lot of money well yeah there's that and I mean time time with streaming just doesn't matter like you know we've got a new series of Stranger Things coming this year and we've basically been told it's It's eight movies. It's eight films lengthwise.

Yeah. So, yeah, things have seemed to have got longer with streaming, but then again, at the same time, we still seem to be sticking fairly rigidly to 45, 50 minutes. I don't know. Can anyone say how long an episode of Doctor Who is now? I suppose it still has to be broadcast

on BBC One. That is... that's still its home it is but bbc does not because bbc is commercial free um the programming doesn't line up in nice neat hourly slots anyway you know if it's like um and even channel four doesn't seem to line up neatly uh it's more the american networks where like you know programming starts on the hour and you have this amount of time and the rest is sold to advertisers and that's all quite constrained so because like yeah like with the

Chibnall area we had like things growing a bit longer and that and I remember like there were quite a few episodes where we had them a bit longer and they overran like the series three finale and they would be edited down in other regions because those other regions had the that sort of restrictions on that we've sold that advertising space I think it was the Series 3 finale where there were scenes that were cut out for the American broadcast, I think. Yeah.

I'll never forget how... The one that weirded me out the most of how they managed to get away with it was the Series 9. Both finale episodes were quite long. I remember them going... Heaven Sent is this long and Hellbent is even longer. It's this long. So we actually got two extended length episodes, which at the time, we're only talking 10 years ago, was virtually unheard of. That's two extra long episodes. And like you say, in the Chibnall era, we got spoiled a bit

by episode lengths. They said... You know, episodes are 50 minutes now. We're doing fewer episodes, but episodes are longer. But here it seems to be fewer episodes and shorter episodes. I'm not entirely sure. Like you say, it could be a budget thing. And also, I think part of it should be down to how long does the story take to tell? This isn't classic Doctor Who anymore. It's not. we've got to have a cliffhanger every 25 minutes.

Yeah. You know, it's not even 10, 15 years ago where we have to have a cliffhanger every 45 minutes. The format of the show has changed. It has evolved. Like I say, I suspect it's just the number of sort of working hours that have to go into. making it look as good as it does. And we've repeatedly talked about how good this series looks. You know, a lot of people said that the Disney money didn't appear on screen last year. Well, it sure as hell has this year.

In every single episode, it's looked exceptional.

And I sort of see that. But then at the same time, like if I was extending some of these episodes by five, ten minutes, a lot of that would be like... character moments or dialogue heavy scenes so not not talking like loads of effects and you know expensive setups but so that's what makes me think maybe is it actually more about like a self -imposed limit of no we're going to hold people's attention and okay and and to be fair i would prefer something is a bit short

and leaves you wanting more to to to use the big finish example or even some classic Doctor Who, to pad things out a bit longer than the story deserves or the story needs. And, you know, to sort of artificially hold yourself to longer running time and go the other direction. Which I suppose must be an easy trap to fall into.

Well, yeah. I mean, if you're a writer for Big Finish, you're given the brief of... all of our stories have to be X number of CDs long, or you have to fill this box set, you have to fill these slots. You can't write a story that's like three quarters of a CD long. It has to be, you know, that's 60 minutes. I know they play around a little bit with like sometimes squeezing three short episodes onto a disc, but it's generally, they're pretty, they're pretty like, you know,

it's an hour's worth of story. on each CD I find it amazing that it's still sort of dictated by CD length in 2025 because it can there can't be much audio drama produced now that is dictated by can we fit it on a CD I really can't but it's Doctor Who there'll be like that core of people who will complain if Like, you know, some releases go digital only or, you know, they can't continue

collecting. Which we have seen. Yeah, they are announcing digital only releases now and there are people that are not buying them because they can't have them on. Yeah, yeah. They're very tentative. Yeah, and you can tell, it's like with like Recast, they're sort of like, you can tell that Big Finish are a bit anxious about jumping into that and they're just trying it to see how people react. for really going for it. I suppose that's the other thing that sort

of dictates Big Finish. It's what do people buy? What will people... Yeah, they're much more constrained by that because you can put something out on the BBC and there aren't advertisers to keep happy. Viewing figures aren't the be -all and end -all. It's about doing what the charter says you're supposed to do. It's not just about numbers of viewers. so you have a lot more flexibility.

Whereas Big Finish, I think as I understand it, they put out a lot of stuff, but it sounds like their margins are quite narrow, and so they have to be a bit more, maybe not mercenary, but they have to be a bit more reactive to, well, people will buy more stuff if there's a Dalek on the cover, so we'll put out a lot of Dalek stories.

It still lets them do good stuff. within those constraints but i think they are more constrained than people making doctor who on tv and of course they're also constrained by doctor who on tv as well yeah what they have what they're allowed to do what because they can't because considering what they do produce and considering some of the stuff they come out with it's actually a minor miracle that it's as good as it is because they do have you know imagine if the tv series

were to look at facebook twitter gallifrey base and gauge what it had to do based on that which i'm not saying is what big finish does you know big finish looks at what sells and what doesn't and goes okay as you say daleks are on the cover of that one it's sold better than anything else we'll put more daleks on covers um and the opposite way around where like what, you know, stuff that I really enjoyed, like the novel adaptations, doesn't continue because people weren't buying

them in the numbers that they buy other stuff. Or Fogarty is a big example, a big one as well. Like, you know, Chris and Roz, they attempted to bring them back, but seems like people just have something, don't, yeah, the numbers aren't there for those, those like comics and books characters coming in. I suppose at the end of the day, you know, they originated in a series of 30 -odd -year -old novels that are very difficult

to get hold of. There's an awful lot of, like, if you look at the list of new adventures and you've never read any of them, it's quite overwhelming. As somebody that's not actually read all that many. I can kind of get it. I can kind of people go, I kind of get why people go, yeah, I'm just not engaging with that. Which is a shame because I quite liked the novel adaptations. I quite like Chris and Rose, especially the way they

have been sort of interpreted on audio. Because they have, maybe it was to do with the order as well, but they have done their origin story. I don't think it was their first audio, but they

have done. original sins so like with bernice they've done an adaptation of lohan war so even if you if you don't track down those novels you can still get a performed introduction to these to these components yeah absolutely um but but dragging it dragging us back to um the story and the engine um it's I hope that Belinda doesn't become that kind of character, actually, you know, a character that people don't go for in spin -off because we didn't really see or hear

much from her on screen. Like, she's a great character, just my concern is she's been a little bit underserved. That may all change in the next few episodes. She's been compared to Tegan, who's quite a well -regarded character now. But I think at certain points was dismissed as the one who's always complaining and just doesn't want to be there. I think there's a lot more to both Tegan and Belinda. I think we've had a very good reassessment

of Tegan over the last few years. I do remember a time where everybody just dismissed 80s who was dreadful and anybody involved with it was also dreadful and therefore Tegan was... lugged in on the list of worst companions ever. Even worse because she dared to not be in love with travelling in the TARDIS and maybe that set some fans against her. Those fans who would fantasise about going off in the TARDIS with the Doctor when they were children and there's this person

who doesn't want to be there. What's her problem? I also wonder if The fact it took Janet Fielding a while to start regularly doing Big Finish contributes to that as well. Like a lot of people have said that, you know, Big Finish has done absolute wonders for, you know, The Sixth Doctor and Ace and Adric even, you know, another late to Big Finish. But nevertheless, we've had some great

stuff with Adric there now. So I wonder if that's kind of a contributing factor as well, like in terms of people that are... are looking at the ongoing Classy Doctor Who big finish. I wonder if, you know, there being no new Tegan material has perhaps skewed the view a little bit. And obviously that's been fixed in the last 10 years. Maybe. Nevertheless, it's, you know, Tegan is beloved. Tegan came back. Everyone was happy

that Tegan came back. in power at the doctor um and i just hope that there's the platform for if nothing else more appreciation of belinda in the future because it kind of doesn't really feel like that at the minute there's just not much to work with um yeah anyway we'll move on because we can keep going on so in circles on this one um the doctor then So we've kind of mentioned that the Doctor found visiting Lagos, he found it as a safe space, the barbershop especially

was a safe space. It's somewhere he felt comfortable going in his current regeneration. I love the fact that we are referring to off -screen adventures with the 15th Doctor because everything feels like it's happened quickly. Again, I'm complaining about shorter episode count. I need to get over it. Everything feels like it's happened really quickly. It doesn't feel like this Doctor's gone

off and had loads and loads of adventures. But actually, there are some fairly solid gaps in his timeline where he could have done and presumably did, the biggest one being in between seasons. And, you know, we had a Christmas special sort of set in that period. So just sort of have you any thoughts about the Doctor in this week's episode and have we learned a bit about him and that sort of thing? Yeah, I think the off -screen adventures are good and they add some depth.

And I don't know, I feel like, I'm finding it hard to be specific, but I feel like there's more to the Doctor's performance this season. Because was season two filmed? I know season two was filmed ages ago. Like, how close was it to season one? Because it almost feels like he's had some time to settle in and to get a sort of deeper hold on what his Doctor is. Yeah. Yeah, there's definitely been some kind of subtle

shift in the performance. And we discussed this at the start, you know, when we watched The Robot Revolution. We kind of discussed this then and kind of said, actually, there's not been much of a shift, but... Yeah, a few more episodes in. I agree with you. He just seems to have gelled with the role a bit more. I don't think there's been any sort of huge conscious change in the

way the character's done. It's not like Patrick Troughton being a very different Doctor by Tomb of the Cybermen than he was in Power of the Daleks. But yeah, he certainly feels more comfortable in the role. I really don't think there was that big a gap between... Filming season. But then Christopher Eccleston changed in his season. I think I'm trying to track it back, but it might, it might even be like broke by production book.

Like I feel like Eccleston's performance when it started in the, in the earliest filmed episodes that it was a bit broader. It was a little bit more CBBC where, and where he was getting his head around the role. And then as time went on, his doctor became, there was still some of that. lightness and comedy, but it became a bit more real and a bit more grounded as he got further

in. And maybe it's just that same thing. So even if season two was filmed right after, it was just one of the later production blocks, effectively. Yeah, I think every Doctor has settled into the character over time. And, you know, writers become more confident with how to write the character as well. It must be so difficult to come in as a guest writer and write for a brand new Doctor

who hasn't actually appeared on screen yet. I know most of the last series was written by Russell T Davies, who was obviously trying to steer it in a certain direction. But new voices have helped, I think, in this case. Definitely for this season, I think that's been both for the Doctor and the stories, and in general just having that bit more of a mix, and having Russell T Davies, I'm sure, very closely involved in rewrites to make it feel cohesive. I think that's throughout both

the first era and this one. Some of the strongest stories are the ones where a writer has come with the first draft and those ideas and that freshness, and then he's done sometimes very

extensive. rewrites but sometimes that collaboration I'm curious if there's a writer's tale I'm curious to know how his process has changed for this era and if he's being more hands off or he's still working in the exact same way as he did the first time around but I mean coming back to the Doctor in this episode so I'm seeing that bit of a subtle shift from where he was in Church on Ruby Road, Space Babies, right at the start.

And there was moments in Joy to the World where you got to see some very different sides to him as well. But I'm also a bit anxious that potentially with three episodes left, I don't think this Doctor is going to get the type of arc or progression.

And actually, to be fair, I don't think Jodie Whittaker... was well served by this either as well by like by ending up a different person at the end of their era than they were at the start i think 10 11 and 12 all had that in in in really interesting ways um 12 being my favorite example of that of how he changes so much from eight to nine and then to ten um from those seasons um but i don't think jodie wetzker or tutor got while so far have had anything as dramatic as

that everyone says the big big moment with the 12th doctor with capaldi was a zygon inversion you know the big the big sort of monologue in that that really sort of let us see i mean peter capaldi acting at full throttle because there are a lot of quite reasonable sort of discussions about how okay we've got this we've got someone who we know is an absolutely phenomenal actor who is just not being maybe challenged isn't the right word but you know i mean not not being

given material that necessarily lets them show really what they can bring to the table and then we suddenly got it in that episode and it was kind of a big moment for that doctor And I think maybe we need that moment. I think we've had a few moments that could have been that moment. But going back to, like a stuck record here, we've just not seen enough of him. We've just

not had enough of this doctor on screen. Yeah, and maybe he's a doctor who doesn't monologue as extensively as Capaldi, who was my favourite.

who's my favorite doctor i think but um and and but i especially with like his final speech where he gets like he has two or three regeneration speeches layered on top of each other there are times when i think that his stuff could have been cut down a bit little bit um but like for example the speech with conrad that was like more understated and maybe that's who this doctor is that he isn't as dramatic or over the top as some of the previous ones will have been but

it's almost yeah a bit of that sort of Patrick Troughton energy of like being a bit more subtle and maybe being a bit scarier because of that like Sylvester McCoy had a bit of that sometimes as well so I think that's all very in keeping with other versions of the Doctor yeah perhaps nevertheless it's good to see it is good to see the way that Shuji Gatwa performs, the role, is evolving, is changing, is becoming more Doctor -like. Still a very unique Doctor, but still

definitely the Doctor. And I think there's a really good balance of that. And I really hope we do get more. You know, there are rumours that this is his last season. I hope that isn't the case. I hope we get another, at least one more season. with this Doctor, because there's definitely potential for more, I think, from the character. However, not the only Doctor in this episode. Big surprise, wasn't expecting it at all. We got to see the Fugitive Doctor for a brief moment,

which I really wasn't expecting. I really, really thought we were perhaps done with that character. I thought maybe that character was... Something that appeared in the Chibnall era and that was it. And I've mentioned in the past actually about how I'm not a huge fan of how when a new era of Doctor Who comes along, a new showrunner in particular, a lot of stuff kind of just stops and disappears. Whereas we really are reaching

into other eras with this one. You know, we have Kate Stewart who's come all the way through from the early half of the Moffat era. We've had... The Fugitive Doctor now. We've even had Mel from the classic series. And it's just nice to see that we're not afraid to kind of bring things from the show's recent past through here. And I hope that we do get another proper Fugitive Doctor episode sometime. I'm not talking about

a little cameo. I'm hoping we get, for some reason, the current Doctor has to, has to... get into an adventure with the Fugitive Doctor. I suppose the closest example I've got would be Coda from Once and Future where the War Doctor and the Fugitive Doctor just sort of happen to end up in an adventure together. I'd like to see something

like that. Or a special... Like, there's all sorts of rumours about what will happen if there's a hiatus on TV and, you know, there's talk of, like, celebrity... and like having a different doctor every year for a TV movie. And, you know, we might finally get our Paul McGann movie that's been like everyone's wanted for the last few decades. And they might do a Joe Martin movie, you know, like all the tales of the TARDIS stuff.

And, you know, Dr. Davis's vague comments about bi -generation potentially being this retroactive

thing, which you've had nothing about. since the giggle um i feel like that was just him just just kind of getting a bit carried away um but but maybe that was set up for oh you know there'll be a uh a sylvester mccoy special every every now and then when when our main doctor isn't available or is busy doing a play or something and yeah joe martin would be great to see doing something like that um because yeah because you're right you don't want her to just keep being the

cameo doctor um you know who turns up and like everyone really just wants more of but we never get more than like that that fleeting look at at that certain point you have to keep stop teasing and give us something more substantial and there was a line and a very Very in keeping with like the whole theme of stories about like, what was it? Like something about a story might be finished one day or. Certainly a hint. Something like. So, yeah, is that hinting? I hope so. But we'll

see. I'm not expecting it, but I'd very much like it. It felt. I suspect that for COVID reasons. we never quite got what the original plan for Joe Martin was in the Jodie Whittaker era, in the Chibnall era. I always felt as though there was meant to be another episode. Was there a plan? But Chibnall's been a bit vague about what

actually was going on there. And maybe that's... that's fine that like you know you leave that vague and even the author doesn't know the answers but he's almost i feel like he said things recently that make it sound like he didn't know himself what you know where she sits in the timeline or who she is i don't necessarily need confirmation of the timeline but there's a load of stuff with you know the whole division thing was never really wrapped up I don't know. It feels as though that

there are dangling threads there. And there is Big Finish, but... Well, we know that Big Finish 13th Doctor stuff isn't going to deal with that because it's set before Flux. And there's fugitive Doctor box sets, but again, I don't think Big

Finish are going to constrain. They're not going to be allowed to reveal some earth -shattering... thing that changes the whole nature of Doctor Who which by the way is what Russell Davis is hinting at next week's episode being based on his Doctor Who magazine comments that's not going to happen in Big Finish so again they're constrained because like what really radical or amazing things can they do with revelations about the fugitive Doctor and the same with the war Doctor you know

they're working within the constraints of like we know where he ends up and it I've liked a lot of Board Doctor stuff, but it limits what they can do with that concept and that setup.

Yeah, we have the start point, we have the end point, and we have not a lot to go on with the character, and we're never going to get what we got with the Eighth Doctor at Big Finish, which is a whole era that covers so many aspects of his life and all that kind of thing, because the future of Board Doctor's characters... aren't set up like that they're not yeah the current doctor at big finish at all um and even when the eighth doctor wasn't like even when we had

the ninth doctor the gulf um the gap was so big that you could almost still view the eighth doctor as having this open -ended history which is starting to close off now but but still i i i saw the eighth doctors The Eighth Doctor is the current Doctor at Big Finish, right the way through to the end of Stranded, easily. It was ongoing adventures with a Doctor who, okay, by that stage we did know how he ended, we did know how he regenerated, but it was a hell of a long way to get there.

Yeah, there's still a bit of a gap, it feels, between the Liv and Helen era and then the Time War era. It feels like... I need to catch up with the last few box sets. I don't know if that's been filled in even more, but it feels like there's still a bit of a sort of jump, a vague period there. There's still questions to be answered, certainly. Yeah. Anyway, it's interesting, I think, that the story in the engine has given us an awful lot to talk about as an episode.

Very good episode. I definitely need to watch it again. I've only seen it once. And I think we're absolutely right in terms of it being a bit ghost -like -ish. You need to give it a couple of goes before you get everything. But it's interesting that it's given us an awful lot to talk about, about the wider Doctor Who universe and various implications here and there and things we can compare it to and not compare it to and all that

sort of thing. And at the end of the day, for the first time ever, as I said at the very start, I feel like... we've had a big finished story on screen. And that's not a bad thing. Like, it feels like we've had a really, really good big finished story. Like, someone has picked one of the best and just put it on screen instead of onto a CD. And I've really enjoyed that. So

it's nice to explore what it has explored. You know, folklore and stories and... other locations and the doctors, the way the doctor is perceived across different regenerations. There's so much in there to pick apart. And it has kind of led us on quite an interesting journey of discussion to various places. So I'm writing this down as a good episode. And I'm writing everything down as a good episode. I don't think we've had a dud at all this series. I don't think we've even

come close to a dud this series so far. No, I think it's like same as series one. Once you get past the first episode, it's been really strong for me. And I think this year's opening was pretty good as well. I'm a bit anxious about the finale. I've booked to go see it in the cinema. And I did book last year, but I was ill, so I couldn't make it. a bit relieved because I didn't, then I didn't end up traveling across London. I booked for it like somewhere just around the

corner this year. Uh, and I'm a bit more optimistic this year. Um, but also that there are so many elements to nod to at least, or wrap up in a

satisfying way. Uh, I'm really, really curious how those last two episodes are gonna, are gonna try and, wrap things up and give a decent amount of closure to everything and tell a decent story in their own right and we know so little about those last two episodes as well which I'm I mean last week's you know we don't really know anything about the rest of this series to be honest we didn't know anything going into story in the engine or very little about it We don't know

much about Intergalactic Song Contest beyond the basic concept of what's going on. And the finale, all we have really is a title. We have some ideas of a few people confirmed to be in it, and I guess it's speculation technically, but an idea of what story elements you would expect to be resolved or paid off. Yeah, there's enough to speculate around. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, you're right. In terms of what actually happens, we don't have a clear idea of what the actual

story is going to be. We don't even have an idea of the villain. We all went into the finale last time. We'd sort of figured out it was Sutec, hadn't we? I mean, Connor said on this podcast months before, oh, it's going to be Sutec. which was a wild stab in the dark, but it was a wild stab in the dark that proved to be correct. We don't have that. We're not sat here going, oh, Scarath's going to be in the finale. That's my guess. There doesn't seem to be any of that.

The rumours going around, which probably have no basis whatsoever, but it seems like the classic

things of Omega, the Rani, the Master. and i've stayed yeah i've stayed away from like specific actual verified spoilers apparently there's some dialogue leaks from the finale i've tried to avoid um but yeah those those bits of speculations about who the villain is i can't it can't be it can't be one of those oh yeah people are saying like maybe mrs flood is the ronnie but i'd be well let's see how it pans out but like i'd be a bit disappointed because she doesn't seem very

ronnie -ish at all to me no and oh my god i don't i don't know how it could be i mean the master at least there is like a history of a relationship with that character that's been really well established in modern day doctor who that you can lean on but oh my god like What even hints at that? Oh, well, we'll continue in our speculations and see what we can come up with next week. But that's probably all we've got time for now. So we'll

leave it there. But yeah, roll on the intergalactic song contest and hopefully it'll leave us with a lot to talk about. And as we've said, there's some kind of reveal coming. A really big reveal. Maybe I think the last performer. in the song contest will be a masked singer and it will be Omega wearing his mask. Played by Paul McGann. Yeah. You heard it here first, listeners. And on that note, we will leave it there. So thanks

very much for joining me, Mansoor. We'll be back to discuss the Intergalactic Song Contest next week. But until then, goodbye.