You're listening to a podcast of spurious morality Hello and welcome to a podcast of spurious morality. I'm Johnston and with me again this week I have Mansour. Hello. Hello. And we've done it. We've done the whole season. This is it. We're going to talk about the reality war, the season finale. So we have covered, for the first time, it's the first time Spodcast has done this, we have covered the entire series on a week by week basis
as released. So that's quite good. I feel like it's an achievement and I'm actually quite surprised it's taken us three series of spodcasts to do this, but I've enjoyed doing it. I've enjoyed going over this series and it's sort of kept me more engaged with this series than I think I was with last year's. Last year, Connor and
I did sort of two episodes. So we did the first half in one episode and the second half in the next and we didn't quite get to do the whole... speculation thing that we've done here and that kind of thing so it's been quite enjoyable so we'll dive straight in the reality war a lot goes on in this and the one thing I've seen a lot of people say is it's nothing like what they were expecting and I think I'm I'm on that list of people I've spoken over the last few weeks
about Things we're expecting to see, expecting to happen, how's everything going to be squeezed into one episode, all of this kind of thing. And actually the reality war kind of got things over and done with as quickly as it could and then just took a bit of time to breathe. It gave us a chance to say goodbye to Belinda and say goodbye to this doctor because we got something that I've been saying I'd like to see ever since 2005, which is a... more or less, surprise regeneration.
You know, it wasn't announced. We didn't know that somebody was going to appear, somebody else was going to appear at the end of the episode as maybe the new Doctor. It just kind of happened. And I really did like that. I really, really like the way this was handled because it's always a big sort of news story when we get a regeneration. You know, it's... The actor announces they're leaving. We go through this whole process of who's going to be the next doctor. There's all
the random guesses from the bookies. All the same names get sort of thrown up and thrown about. And the bookies kind of settle on somebody a few days before and they are inevitably right. And that seems to have happened, I think, ever since Matt Smith was announced. to have that surprise here. So I'm kind of jumping towards the end of the episode because, you know, the big talking point is the fact it was a regeneration story. I get the impression that regeneration
story is maybe not what it started life as. I think we know there were some reshoots. We know that maybe the ending to this episode wasn't the one as originally planned. There do seem to be some things that have kind of just been left. Like, for example, Susan never made the appearance that we were all expecting and speculating about. And I even last week said, I think we need to give a good chunk of the episode over to Susan returning. And it just didn't happen.
And I hope that that is something that's picked up. I really do hope that, you know, moving forward, we do get something with Susan because it seems strange to have Caroline Ford in to do. what she did in Interstellar Song Contest, and then she popped up a tiny little bit in Wishworld, and then obviously the reality war had to go in a totally different direction because at some point we've realised that we need a new Doctor.
We need it to be a regeneration story. Overall, considering... how packed it was, I thought it was a pretty good episode. I think on the whole, it was a decent episode. I think there are things within that episode that I'm not too keen on and the sort of rushed, strange last 15 minutes that sort of felt disconnected from everything else. And like I say, I suspect when the original plan felt a bit jarring and it's a real shame to see Shooty go. He's been a fantastic doctor.
I could talk for hours about that, but Ultimately, the episode as a whole, for the most part, did what I wanted it to. Could have done something more interesting with Omega, because Omega's a far more interesting character than the way he was portrayed in this, which was basically a big CGI clawing face. But I think that's kind of made up for by the fact that we've... We've
had some really good Rani stuff. I like both the incarnations of the Rani and I liked them even more in this episode than I did in Wishworld. It was good to see them have that confrontation with the Doctor. We definitely got a good look into the Rani's character and how she just sees the universe as one big experiment and morals don't matter and all that kind of thing. I...
It was sort of... like what I was expecting I think because I went into it with the knowledge of rumours about behind the scenes issues and like late in the day reshoots and maybe that sort of primes you to look out for these things but I can't think of off the top of my head another example of any tv doctor who story where uh like that seems like the effects of that seem so obvious and there's sort of there's two layers to it because and this is speculation but it seems
to me that uh at the point at which um poppy just disappears around there like everything after that seems to have been swapped in or added in quite late in the day because we saw publicity stills for scenes that are not in the finished episode but then there's another layer before that which is I think one of my issues with the whole season looking back is the speculation again not confirmed at all that Belinda was swapped in for Ruby in season two And having seen this
last episode, that seems more and more likely to me. I'll get into specifics about the ending and specific moments, but Ruby is the one who has all the big hero moments in this episode, and Belinda is literally shut away in a box for part of it, and for a really crucial part of it. Yeah. And it makes me a bit disappointed that we didn't get more with her character over this whole season. Having said that, with both of those two big potential adjustments that they
had to make, it does a reasonable job. There are things I liked about it, like some really good visuals. Like you said, the Rani. Both versions of the Rani were very good. And yeah, there were good moments. Oh, actually, I did like Conrad's story and how that was wrapped up. But yeah, when we get into the specifics of that, I thought there were some potentially missed opportunities there as well to wrap up some other threads relating to the Doctor. Yeah, there was stuff to like,
but maybe I was primed to look out for it. But the joins and the adjustments behind the scenes just seemed really, really obvious to me with this one. Yeah, you do sort of have to ask, is this the story from the new Who era with the
most sort of obvious? behind the scenes struggles like I know we've had episodes that have had a pretty difficult recording and there's been little errors here and there and that kind of thing but is this the one where it shows the most but then again is that just because it's actually a big regeneration story and was never meant to be yeah that's one of the biggest things because I feel like this season was written as the beginnings of the arc for this doctor all
that stuff that was like so out of character with that moment of torturing kid in interstellar song contest that's just been left whereas if this was like you know his like his middle season or second out of four seasons I can see how there would be an arc about him going further down that road and maybe the companion pulling him back or Susan coming in and being a bigger part of the story and pulling him back or like a moment of hubris where he just goes too far and that
kind of like the end of time leads to the regeneration but it really really feels like that story was starting to be told and and then it was just cut short in and Yeah, and right in the middle, basically. Yeah, I mean, every, well, not every other Doctor we've had, but the majority of new Who Doctors have done three seasons. And actually, I don't think any of them have been properly
set up for a three -season arc. I don't think any of them, you know, okay, Jodie Whittaker's arc sort of started to get going in her second
season. never quite fully came to fruition because of covid and flux being cut down as a result and you know made under restrictions all this kind of thing but yeah you're right it feels as though we were starting to figure out what we were doing with this doctor where he was going to go and i do think that one more season we'd have we'd have probably seen it through we'd have got everything that we yeah could have been three three three year three -year story that's
what it felt like to me but like i i think like looking back at the post 2005 doctors i think nine ten twelve and then also like the kind of um mayfly ones like um the war doctor and the 14th i think all of those have got a coherent compelling character arc um it's not that i don't like the other doctors but i think 11, definitely 13 with the COVID disruption and then now 15 with this behind the scenes pivot potentially.
I don't think they were as well served with kind of telling a coherent story over their eras. And that's not essential because like classic Doctors didn't always have that or they had it in very subtle ways. Like, you know, Tom Baker just kind of changed. like the sort of tone and performance, there wasn't any great sort of explicit
arc or story going across the whole thing. But I think the thing that makes it stick out with the 15th is that they were making steps, like quite deliberate steps to start that story and then it got stopped short. Which is definitely a shame. Yeah. Yeah. It's... Yeah, I can't help but think that this era is always going to feel a bit incomplete as a result. Like, we've definitely
got a Doctor gone too soon. And funnily enough, it feels like we don't know him as well as we knew the Ninth Doctor when he left in Parting
of the Ways. That's really interesting because we know now quite... christopher has talked about it quite openly that there was a lot of tension and issues behind the scenes with that season yet you watch that back and it it looks like it was always written to be this like really compelling uh one season arc um for the doctor yeah uh yeah so it's a shame that they couldn't adjust and bring things together in the same
way this time round. Yeah, the ninth Doctor's Era was obviously cut off early, but they knew it was happening and the whole season kind of built towards it. Yeah. Whereas this really does feel like someone's gone, oh, crap, we need to do regeneration now, quick, tack it on the end. Which is such a shame. I would love to know what happened originally. And we know that... We know
it exists. There must have been a more or less complete version of this episode as it would have, should have been before they had to turn it into a regeneration story. And it seems like very late in the day because I think it was Disney Plus in Germany or the fact that production skills stills from an unused ending are out there in the public. That to me says that this was like really down to the wire in terms of swapping things out. Yeah. Oh, well, all we can do is
wait. One day we'll find out more. It's now my sort of second most I want to know what was going on originally after Rogue One. I still want to see the original version of Rogue One before other issues happen there. Different reasons, of course. But, yeah, I'm very curious to know what was actually meant to happen in this episode. You know, it's safe to assume that Susan was
meant to be part of it, I think. I've seen, again, like nothing confirmed, but I've heard a lot of YouTubers and reviewers repeating rumours about there was this party at the end. That's what we see in the production stills. Poppy was going to have disappeared. But then you see everyone celebrating and Susan standing off to the side with Poppy. Now, some versions I've heard it's just Susan and other versions it's Susan with Poppy. And yeah, it's sort of setting up her
coming back in in the following season. So, yeah. And there was that behind the scenes interview with Caroline Ford. where either she's just just has a very doctor who like wardrobe at home or she was in costume for different scenes that we didn't see in interstellar yes so yeah i'm pretty sure she filmed something else and there was um uh belinda's dad uh whose agency posted stuff on online saying you know our clients in in doctor who and then he was Nowhere to be seen
in this episode. Scenes were cut. Yeah. I'm guessing he was at the party that doesn't exist now. Yeah. Maybe one day we'll find out. I hope we do. It sounds like a sort of fantastic, curious episode that never happened. Well, I wonder, it's not beyond possibility for the original script to be uploaded because it might be this is just a thing of there was no major falling out between
individuals. It was just shooting up. I wanted to progress with his career and he didn't want to hold on indefinitely for Disney to possibly or possibly not renew. If that's the case and it all ended amicably, then maybe we will see the original shooting scripts uploaded in the next few months. It'd be very interesting if there were. Fingers crossed. It's something I'd certainly like to have a look at and talk about in the future. Or maybe the book will cover the
other timeline. The Writer's Tale 2. Oh yeah, that. But I was thinking of The Target. style novelization oh of course yes all right yes also a possibility um so of course another i think victim of this big cut reshoot change whatever is belinda's departure um yeah like you know i get the impression that maybe that wasn't as originally planned and You know, her timeline was entirely changed as a result of the episode. And it was, I mean, it was a nice way to write
a Doctor Who companion out. You know, it worked. It was a very Doctor Who -y way for a character to go. But at the same time, A, it's a real shame for this character to go. B, I'm very, very annoyed that she spent a chunk of her last episode literally shut up in a box. All for no reason as well, I'll hastily add. And the thing I'm always going to say about Belinda is I wish we'd got more. I really do. And I absolutely loved sort of that scene in the TARDIS with the Doctor, Belinda
and Ruby. And it just made me think, God, we could have had a series of that. That would have been amazing. That would have been absolutely fantastic if we'd have had the three of them properly travelling together. Yeah, and maybe if there was going to be a season three with this Doctor, that would have been the way to go to actually do Belinda justice in an additional season. I didn't like the way she was used here
at all. Like the stuff you mentioned about she's put in a box, but then when she comes out of the box, it's a... It's played as an unambiguously happy ending. If I'm understanding it right, the universe has shifted and where she didn't have a child before, she now has a child who happens to look exactly like Poppy, the space baby. Although I've seen different interpretations of it saying that she did always have a baby
called Poppy. Don't understand that at all because it is the Wishworld that created Poppy in the first place, isn't it? That's where she came from. The version of Poppy that we... Well, there's two versions of Poppy we see, aren't there? Or three. There's the original Space Babies one. There's the Wishworld version who's half Time
Lord. And then there's the post... shifted universe version who's 100 % human and yeah as far as I can understand it Belinda when we saw her in the robot revolution did not have a child in that version of the universe so no so if that's the case I just find it really I just find it a bit weird that the Doctor's made that decision.
This whole era started with the 14th Doctor and Donna, and it wasn't the sole reason they got those two very popular actors back into Doctor Who, but one of the reasons for bringing Donna back as a character was to fix some of the issues with her exit and... You know, there's stuff about her not choosing what the Doctor did to
her in the last moments of Journey's End. And it just seems really weird to me that you then end this new era with the Doctor choosing to change the companion's life and make her a mother when she didn't choose that. And I know it's complicated because wish well Belinda would have chosen that. But I don't. There's nothing to say that the original Robot Revolution version of Belinda would have chosen this life. No. Yeah,
that just felt really weird to me. And she has that moment at the end of Robot Revolution where she has that really good moment of setting boundaries and saying, you know, don't scan me without my
consent. And I think there's a moment in this episode where the Doctor just scans Poppy without... without asking and it just seems to like throw out all of that really interesting stuff about companion who you know is setting boundaries and making choices of her own and and instead the doctor's kind of done what conrad was doing in a different way and just like chosen for her and said oh no your happy ending is being a mother which you know might be a really happy life for
her but it's not what she chose yeah it's it's definitely odd and you know when when consent is set up as being something so important to this character exactly if you didn't bring it up you could maybe fudge it but it's yeah it's it's literally part of how this character is established. Yeah. Yeah, I really do think we've just not got the character we should have had
out of Belinda. And I think it's a shame that her exit did sort of get wrapped up in everything else that had to be done in this episode because she started off so well. Like the first three episodes, she is such a fan. fantastic character, a fantastic companion. And ever since then, we've had stories that she's barely in, that she's not an important part of, or as you have sort of speculated and kind of convinced me of, really, she was just a replacement last minute for Ruby.
Yeah, it's a real shame because I really wish we'd have got more out of Belinda because I... the setup was so good. There was so much promise there. We really were on for a great companion in those first few episodes. And all of it just seemed to fall by the wayside as the series went on. Well, like one or the other, like if you're
going to bring her in, then rework it. And I'm saying this as though it's easier and understand like, you know, they might've been working around a lot of, a load of different budgetary and time constraints to make this happen. Um, But ideally, if you're going to make that swap, then rework the season so that it tells a better story for her. Or, you know, it would have been, and again, we don't know why it might have happened, but there might have been a better version of season
two where Ruby did stick around. Because you have that line in Space Babies that seems to directly set up Wishworld, where the Doctor says to Poppy, you know... We're not your parents, but I wish we were. And he's talking about him and Ruby. So that's not addressed at all. Whereas I think if Ruby was still the main companion in season two, you would have a big flashback to that line to sort of underscore, oh, something's rippled back in time and that wish has become
real. But I don't think we heard that line again in flashbacks. This week? No, I certainly don't recall it. Yeah, it's a shame that it's the way it's gone because I really do think, you know, we had a fantastic actor. You know, we had a good character and we've just not quite seen the potential. And I promise this is the last time I'll grumble about it. You're not going
to get. everything you want out of a character in an eight episode season like a companion should not be around for eight episodes and then that's it it just doesn't work these are characters that we're supposed to travel with and learn about and you know become fond of and then when you do get an exit it becomes more meaningful and it just doesn't feel like any of the impact there's supposed to have been with this episode was earned with belinda i've seen it said and
i agree that um actually ruby almost had more development this year than belinda did i think belinda had like you said a great introduction and was and was really promising at the start in terms of just the performance in the character but ruby had lucky day and then ruby had the really important big hero moments in this episode. And off the top of my head, I can't think of Belinda getting... We didn't have a Doctor Light where Belinda got to take centre stage, like
we did with 73 Yards and Lucky Day. So she didn't get that opportunity. Or did we? Did we have anything where the Doctor wasn't as present? Not really. Five minutes of Interstellar Song Contest. So she didn't get the chance to kind of take center stage in the way that Ruby has done in two episodes across the seasons. And yeah, like we've already said, it's such a contrast with her just being literally locked away. And then Ruby is playing that really pivotal role
of teleporting in and taking on Conrad. Yeah. I certainly hope we do see more of Ruby because otherwise she just got abandoned and forgotten. That was probably a factor of the reshoots. Totally, yeah. It was almost like a bit back to front because I thought season one was a bit overplayed in terms of how big a deal the departure was. it was almost like doomsday levels of trauma,
but they weren't being ripped apart. It was, she's got a family that she wants to spend a bit of time with, you know, just take the TARDIS forward a few months. What's the problem? And, and then this, this episode was the opposite of like, oh, okay. It's the end of the year era. And there's not even a moment to, to say goodbye
to Ruby. With any look. ruby is now part of this sort of extended group of unit characters like you know we can have her recurring in the same way we have kate and mel and all of the others you know shirley and hopefully hopefully that's that's where it's going to go because if that's ruby's final scene it would be such a shame it really would um we talked a lot about problems and issues but like you mentioned um like seeing the three of them together in the tardis i like
that scene for another reason which was the the folding of the jacket i think that is one of the um that's like one of the most kind of sort of emotional like poetic moments that they've been in doctor who and it was like it's like i would have liked a more coherent story with russell t davis adding that sort of depth and emotion to things um and and and if we were going to do this huge sweeping arc about the gods then that sort of that type of magical realism where
reality's bending a little bit and and and you're using it to tell stories about what emotions people are going through then yeah i would have liked more than that more of that and less of like giant skeleton versions of omega yeah um yeah absolutely and it's it feels like there's an awful lot of surface level stuff and i don't think really we'll ever know how much of that is through necessity and how much of that is through what was actually there on the page to
start with yeah um which yeah just the I mean, the whole God storyline, where do we stand with that now? Nothing feels resolved. Nothing even feels paused for the end of a season. I'm just very curious as to... I think it's wrapped up. Again, maybe it was wrapped up a year earlier than intended and maybe that's why it doesn't feel complete. But I think... I'm trying to think of anything that confirms it directly, but the impression I came away from it was... That, like,
that magic stuff has been put away. Well, because he said no more wishes. That seemed to be drawing a line under all of the sort of magic, gods -related stuff that was going on. We'll see, moving forward anyway. But it kind of feels like there should have been more to it than that. And, you know, there's still references to the boss. You know, the boss of the hotel, is that the same as the Meeps boss that was mentioned way back when in Starbeast? And, you know, there's still, there
are hanging story threads. There are things there that need resolving. Like, you know, is Mavity
ever going to go anywhere? Well, the other big one is Rogue, which it seems... that again seems like something that was cut short that seems obvious for like in season three there would have been an episode with the doctor saving him or them reuniting it just uh yeah which could still happen yeah with a different doctor but it's it yeah that feels really incomplete to me as well that you would make such a big deal of their relationship and then it's it's like
And to bring him back in for that little green screen appearance on the TV as well, it's almost like, would it have been better to have taken that out rather than draw attention to the fact that that thread was left angling? You could argue, would it have been better to take Susan out of Interstellar Song Contest as well? Yeah, or at least not bring her back for the little flashbacks in. and, you know, have replaced both Rogue and Susan in Wishworld, at least, so that
you're not bringing them both up again. Yeah. It's almost like a reminder of unfinished storylines. Yeah. It's like, oh, yeah, this is happening still, by the way. Yeah. I hope there is some clarity on the show's future, what's going on, what the deal with Billy Piper, and we haven't discussed Billy Piper yet. What's the deal there? Because everything that's happened so far seems to have gone out of its way to not confirm that
Billy Piper is playing the Doctor. At the end it was introducing Billy Piper and the press release is all, you know, it never mentions Billy Piper as the Doctor, it just says Billy Piper is back. And there's a line about, is it, you know, one last trip in the TARDIS or something like that. Again, this feels like it's setting something else up, but this is going to be solved fairly short term. I think we're getting a Christmas special maybe at some point, Billy Piper. I don't
know. That's my guess. Next year, though. Do you think they'll be able to film something for this year? Do I think it's possible? Yes. But it would have to happen very, very, very flipping soon. Surely. Yeah, I really don't know what's happening with that. It feels like everything feels like it's left in a very, very funny place at the moment. And all along, I've been going all of these rumors of cancellation, blah, blah,
blah, a load of nonsense. And right now it's sort of, well, no, I don't think it's canceled. I think we're going to get more Doctor Who and I think we're going to get more Doctor Who relatively soon, maybe a year or two. But we're in this just odd limbo where we've got a Doctor Who no one actually wants to say is the Doctor. We've had a very, very strange, I don't want to say botched, ending to Chuty's era, but certainly not a smooth ending. I think, yeah, we need something.
Like, I think we need more Doctor Who as soon as possible just to kind of convince casual viewers, whatever you want to say, that... no, this isn't an absolute mess and it is going somewhere. Or we need new adventures to freshen the franchise up and get it out of a rut by trying new and different things. But I think the problem is that that won't happen because we have big finishes like for the last 20 odd years kind of being in the forefront of extended universe stuff.
So if it does go off of TV, people are going to look to Big Finish first before a niche series of novels. And at the end of the day, Big Finish is really starting to fire up the idea of ongoing series again. We've not had much in the way of ongoing series from Big Finish really, the monthly range ending and that kind of thing. But we're getting... bi -monthly 13th Doctor and 9th Doctor series coming up. You know, we're getting Jodie Whittaker at Big Finish at long last. It's not
taking that long, but at long last. And we're getting the 9th Doctor and Rose together. Yes, she might be playing, or she might have stories of her playing Rose being released while she's filming stories as the Doctor. If that's what she is. Yeah, it's very interesting. I wonder if they've danced around naming her as the Doctor just as a kind of safety mechanism. Maybe she's not contracted to do anything specific because they don't have anything confirmed. So is it
as simple as that? It's just like dancing around it a little bit because she is not contracted to be the Doctor in any upcoming stories at the moment. Yeah, was it just a case of, Billy, will you come and stand in front of a green screen for us? It'll make an amazing shot at the end of an episode. I think because of how late it was, it feels like it was pretty much that. It was like, who will be a familiar face? Who isn't David Tennant again? Yeah, who will be able to
come in and just do that moment? I have to admit, having heard rumours that... There was going to be a regeneration. I'm still calling it a surprise regeneration. It wasn't officially announced in any way. But having heard the rumours, expecting it and all this kind of thing, I kind of hoped they'd go with Joe Martin. How good would that have been? Yeah, we should have linked up with her line about her story being told or being
finished. one day in the story in the engine that would have been a really nice link even if it was just a special with her but again I think I think that would have made sense in terms of it would have been nice but I feel like they're also with the renewal being uncertain they're also thinking about what is going to grab the most attention what's going to make the news and sadly I think like Billy Piper who's who's an amazing actor, she's going to get more space
in news headlines than Joe Martin is. Yeah, very true. It does kind of make me slightly worried that we're going to fall into this phase of every time it looks like Doctor Who's in trouble, we are going to bring back somebody from the David Tennant era. Well, the 15th is like... Bookended by David Tennant and Billy Piper. But yeah, are we just reusing an old trick here? I don't know.
We'll see. Anyway, it's kind of unreasonable to speculate at this point because all we have had is two seconds at the end of an episode. Yeah. We'll see. Well, just a few other points to kind of fire through. I don't know about you, but my highlight, absolute highlight of this episode was Jodie Whittaker's appearance. I thought that was absolutely wonderful. Like, she just came in, she gave it all the energy in the world.
I honestly think it was her five best minutes as the Doctor, and it really makes me wish she'd have stuck around and done a season with Russell T. Davis or something, because she was just fantastic. For the first time ever, I thought, wow, I actually really miss this doctor. I really do. And it's really set me up for big finish next month. Yeah, I'm looking forward to her. I feel like she could be like Colin Baker levels of being given the chance to do stuff on audio that she didn't get
the chance to do on TV. That moment was a bit, it's kind of... like if you're looking at it objectively, you could say it's a bit unnecessary, like to just throw that in. She could have been like a hologram or it could have been just like some other thing that prompts him to take action. But I didn't mind it because of exactly what you said of like how good it was to see her. And I think the attention to detail as well, like I think the music gets a bit more synthy
as she comes in. So it's mimicking that Saganakanola style of music. when she's walking down the platform um yeah it was just great to see her and she yeah you're right it would have been amazing to have had like at least a few specials with her because because i don't think we ever have had that have we because doctors tend to go with their showrunners yeah there's not been any overlap
in post 2005. No, there isn't at all. The line, I laughed out loud with the line about Yaz, because of how accurate it was, but also how sad it was. And the way it was played was really nice as well, like the way the 15th Doctor says, oh no, you never do. And it's kind of like playfully pointing out some of the... missed opportunities, I think, in that era. But in a sort of, yeah,
like a gentle way. But it's, yeah, you look back at the 13th Doctor's era and you do think, you know, how would have things been if they'd just been a bit braver with some of the decisions around all that stuff? Yeah, it kind of, when you look back at the 13th Doctor's era, it had so much going for it. And there's a lot of unrealised potential there. And I do think COVID is a big, big factor in this. But, yeah, we, you know, just the way it felt that we didn't get as many
episodes as we should have done. And, you know, Legend of the Sea Devils, it's another one where it's quite clearly a bit of a troubled production where things didn't go the right way and changes were made last minute and all that kind of thing. we could have got so much more out of that era and it's just kind of a shame that it went the way it did. But yeah, it was so good to see Jodie
Whittaker's daughter again. Like I say, it made me realise I've actually missed this incarnation and now I'm very, very excited about getting the further adventures with Big Finish and I really hope that that ends up being a great series. Yeah. When you said, like, your favourite moment of the episode, my first thought was the Two Ronnies joke with Anita Dobson. Do you know how long it took me to get that? Honestly, it was like two days later. It was like on Monday. I
just suddenly went, Two Ronnies. Oh, bloody hell. What did you think it meant in context then? I mean, I thought it was just quoting the Two Ronnies. I totally got that it was quoting Two Ronnies. But the whole Two Ronnies thing, that. That's what took me two days and I genuinely just went, oh, for God's sake, should have got that straight away. But it was brilliant. Yeah, it was one of the best bits of the episode, even
if I didn't get it first time. It sort of excuses Mrs. Flood shifting into that conspicuously subservient mode for the last couple of episodes. We knew what she was doing. She was always going to be the one that survived. It wasn't that. There wasn't a moment where she turned on the new Rani, though. We didn't get that. It was just she was saving herself after the other one had died. Yeah. She sort of very quickly grabbed the time
ring and went, didn't she? Yeah. I wonder if, again, just speculation, but I wonder if there could have been an opportunity where she made a choice where the new Rani was... being pulled away or was in danger and she has a choice of to go for the time ring or to save her. Yeah. Again, I wonder if more was meant to be made of that bit with Omega and it ended up getting cut because we had to deal with other things
later on. Because it all seemed to happen very quickly and sort of was very functional from a plot point of view. I haven't talked about Omega much, but I think it felt like a rerun of Sutec. You take that classic character, but turn them into something where you're just using your CGI budget, which is kind of visually impressive, and it's a scary moment, but it didn't... Yeah, I feel like at that point, why not just create a new monster or threat from the Underverse?
Maybe you're expecting Omega, and then this... this different thing emerges. And it's kind of doubly weird because they've done the Rani in quite an authentic, classic way that's echoing Kate O'Mara. And then they've done this odd take on Omega. I'm very, very glad that Anita Dobson's
Rani got away. But it is another thing. thing left hanging like the rani should always be out there like the master should always be out there or at least the possibility of the master always being out there should be a thing but but you know at least we sort of we dealt with omega like he's still back locked in his tomb under dimension whatever it is underverse which is that the antimatter universe it was not clear but like the the new rani isn't necessarily dead
though it could be a Boba Fett situation where she is still alive. I'm seeing a whole spin -off series that the Rani's barely in. But yeah, it's... I'm not sure we needed Omega for that. Even if you're bringing back a villain from the past... But it could have been the Beast from Impossible Planet and Satan Pit. Why didn't we do that? That would have been better. That would have
made more sense. Okay, it doesn't make sense that the Rani's trying to dig out the Beast, but in terms of villain that it could have been, that would have been a better option. Or she's looking for Omega and she gets the Beast by accident, like something she's not expecting. Yeah. I mean, like with Sutec, at least there was like that link to the god of death and he's changing the way he's operating, but there's some sort of
thread that's following through. But yeah, I feel like with Omega, there wasn't even that thread. I know there's that line. What's the line in the classic series about saying, you know, he should have been a god? Yeah. I suppose there's that. That's the connection. I worshipped you as a hero. No, I shouldn't have been a hero. I should have been a god, that kind of thing. So it's a bit tenuous, though. Yeah, definitely. But I want more Rani. I want more Anita Dobson's
Rani. I want her to get to be the evil one. Did you prefer her to Archie Punjabi? Because Archie Punjabi's one was much more in the... vein of Kate O'Mara. I feel like Mrs. Flood, again, this might be a retrospective thing, but I'm not convinced that she was always meant to be the Rani. I wonder if that was a retrospective thing that came in this year. Yeah, some of her dialogue in the finale of Series 1 isn't particularly Rani -ish. Yeah. Could have been referring to Omega, but
I'm not convinced. No, we'll... We'll sort of park that one as we'll see. But I think Archie Punjabi was, like you say, she was the Kate O'Mara Rani. She was proper Rani and absolutely fantastic. Did it really, really well. But I think the Anita Dobson Rani is the one that's perhaps got more interesting stories to tell moving forward, that kind of thing. And I suppose like most of the time we've seen her in previous episodes, she's
been playing a role or hiding. So maybe we haven't seen her being herself yet at all because we've seen her playing a role and then like suddenly being subservient to this new Raleigh. So what's she like when she is actually just being herself? Yeah, it'll be interesting. And I hope we get that. I really do hope we get that. Because there's... Well, at the very least, we know there's another
Time Lord out there now. Even if it's just one, and even if it's the Rani, there's another Time Lord out there now, and that makes things more interesting. It's always more interesting when he's not quite the last of the Time Lords. Well, there's the Master's Tooth as well. Sorry, the Toymaker's Tooth with the Master in it. There is another on the list of unresolved things. We're going to have to do an episode about unresolved
things sometime. We could do big finish pitches for how big finish would wrap up each of these unresolved threads. Yes, tying off loose ends. Okay, well, we're sort of close to running out of time on this one. there is sort of one thing that we should go into before we finish really, which is, so this has been a series. The series is done. We've had our eight episodes. What are your overall thoughts on the series? Can you
pick a favourite episode? And are we walking away generally calling this one a winner, even if the ending was a little bit on the shaky side?
I think it's very similar to series one in that because I... wasn't as sold on the ending it sort of artificially brings down the impression of the whole season but it's exactly the same thing of like the middle had some really strong inventive stuff i think like episodes two through two i'm trying to remember which was which yeah i think two through to six i really really enjoyed um so five out of seven episodes and Robot Revolution was okay as well, that's a pretty good hit rate.
Yeah, I'll take a series where sort of three quarters of it are pretty damn strong. Yeah, do you think we should just abandon the concept of big overblown finales with that? Especially with this, you've mentioned the episode count and how that restricts. like what you can do and how much you can develop characters, maybe it would help to not feel that obligation to take up a quarter of your episode count with a finale or just do like a more low -key single
episode finale. I'm going to say no because A, I thought The Legend of Ruby Sunday was absolutely fantastic and you'd never have had that as an episode on its own. It had to be building up to something to work. And B, the giggle. I still think the giggle's brilliant. Yeah, I really like the giggle. Okay, it's episode three, but it's still a big RTD finale. Yeah. Yeah, I really
like the giggle. I still feel like, I think we said this with the series one retrospective, I think those three tenant specials feel like so much... more, like, nicely structured and coherent to me than, like, the sort of ups and downs of series one and two, or season one and two. But I think the main thing that helps those was the fact that the two leads were already established. We've known and loved the Doctor, well, okay, the 10th Doctor, 14th Doctor, David
Tennant's Doctor, and Donna. We've known and loved them for 15 years, more than 15 years. So, It was really easy to do those three episodes because you didn't have to make your audience care about those characters because that work had already been done in a 13 -episode series plus a load of specials. I guess that's a factor,
but there was... It's strange, though, because we talked about the three 60th anniversary specials as almost being like a speed run of a... old 13 episode series with like you know your light lighter opening the weird one in the middle and then the big finale but for some reason that structure really worked as a trilogy and for these two eight episode seasons that we've had something has just felt off to me about trying to squeeze the 13 episode structure into eight
episodes and yeah Maybe this would have all worked better if it was just approached as a 16 -episode series with a mid -season break and a cliffhanger. Because these two seasons went out quite close together, relatively compared to some of the gaps we've had in the past. We weren't waiting a long time between season one and season two. Also, weren't they more or less recorded together?
close together at least yeah like yeah um yeah yeah so there was the potential to do that and maybe you know they didn't want to they just wanted to to have like a really definitive line under series one to like generate buzz and impact but yeah i think using a 16 episode run to tell her to tell one big story might work better Yeah, and I think moving forward that could well be the way to do it. In terms of story, character development and so on, treat every two series
as one series has been treated in the past. Or Flux as well. I think Flux had issues with how it ended, but as a structure for Doctor Who, I think it worked really well. Just tell one really tightly connected story week to week. When you think about it, Dan had more or less the same number of episodes as Belinda, and we got to know him, or at least it felt like we got to know him a hell of a lot better. Yeah.
So, yeah. And Russell T. Davis is really good at quite deftly and concisely giving you a sense
of who characters are. So he can do it. It's just, again, maybe just... the way that this character came about maybe it made it more difficult this time but like this there's so many examples in in the 2005 series of like moments with rose and her mum and um and even the little supporting characters you get in in some of those early stories again just like a few lines or a little moment is used to tell you something quite fundamental about them yeah absolutely It'll always come
back to that line about Colsthor from Jackie Tyler, won't it? You know, a bit clinical. That's brilliant, that. Fantastic line. Gives you so much about that character, and I love it. And stuff like that has been missing, it feels like. Yeah. Anyway, that's probably a good point to leave it, but overall, I'm calling it a good
series. I think the finale has left me feeling a tiny bit... underwhelmed I think that's more of a circumstances that the finale ended up being made under than anything else thing but you know there's an awful lot there to enjoy and I'm probably doing that typical Doctor Who fan thing of just focusing on the bits I wasn't so keen on because there were bits of it that I absolutely loved I'd be surprised if we have a 17 year hiatus but so I'm pretty sure it won't be as long as
that With any luck, we'll see Doctor Who within the next 15 years. Well, there was that line in an interview about kids watching Newsround today will be the ones who bring it back in the
future. So maybe it will be around then. But I hope it's not partly because of, I don't know if that ending on Billy Piper is as nice a full stop as... 1989's moment in survival was which wasn't intended to be the final story but the final speech is tacked on but I think it works amazingly and the story as well is kind of like a thematic callback to going back to the Daleks and ideas about violence and whether it's right or not and Yeah, it just seemed like a really
nice summing up of who the Doctor is and what the show is. I think that's it. Instead of sort of thematically revisiting Rose, we've literally revisited Rose. And if it does end up being the way this era's wrapped up, then so be it, I guess. Oh, and one thing we didn't talk about, speaking of violence, yeah, we didn't even get into the whole thing about the image of the Doctor. saving the day by just shooting a giant gun. Yeah. Yeah. I think, again, that might be part of the abandoned
arc stuff. It's something the Doctor totally doesn't do until he does. Yeah, which is okay when it's kind of by exception, but for it to be such a fundamental big moment in the series finale and his final story, maybe it wasn't intended to be that. That didn't feel right to me that you have that moment. And then you have Ruby counterpointing it by saving the day with compassion at the same time. Yeah, I definitely get the impression we were maybe heading into a the daughter's
getting a bit too trigger -happy era. Yeah, exactly. If things had continued as planned. Oh, well, we don't know what's going to come next. Hopefully there will be some indication sometime soon. I sincerely hope so, because I will always want there to be more Doctor Who. There's still loads of new Doctor Who content for us to enjoy, though. There's Big Finish, there's books, there's all sorts going on. So I guess it's just a case of
sit back, wait and see. And meanwhile, this week we've had a pretty good fourth Doctor Adventures set come out. Doctor Who will carry on forever, maybe just not on telly. Yeah. So, yeah, we'll leave it there for this week anyway. But it's been absolutely fantastic talking about not just this episode, but this whole series with the Mansour kind of. Yeah. I found that, you know, doing week by week has actually proved to be a pretty successful experiment. And I hope we
get to do it again sometime soon. Yeah, absolutely. So thank you for joining me on it. Yeah, no worries. We'll be back for more Spodcasting next week. Goodbye now.