[Full Coaching Call] Slapped with Reality: Difficult Conversations About Money in Marriage

Okay, thanks for doing this.

Yeah, happy to.

What is top of mind for you?

top of mind is money. Okay. I've been thinking about a belief that I've just realized, I've brought with me from my teen years, and it's becoming a problem. the belief I have is that I am responsible to meet my wants, meaning, it's okay to rely on somebody else to meet my basic needs. Like when I was young, it was my dad, he was the breadwinner. And now that I am an adult and married, my husband has been the breadwinner. So I have.

Okay.

So I don't know. I have been asking myself like, pros and cons of being an employee versus being an entrepreneur? And my dad growing up, he had a nine to five job, but he also always had something on the side that he was doing. And as I watched him, the last business he grew. Was quite successful, but it also took a lot of his time and attention, like outside of work hours, and I saw that entrepreneurial side of, wow, there's really no time that you're not thinking about it.

Okay.

that's where I'm at today.

I have a few questions to start us off. you hinted at this already, but I'm curious about the line between what you're calling needs and what you're calling wants as a teenager. You described them as things like the fancy shampoo and the nicer clothes. what else goes under this heading for you? not teenage you, but like now what's falling under this heading for you?

I guess I just want to live more in aligned with my values. Like I value my physical body, so ingredients and products that are more natural and holistic. healthcare that is more holistic than traditional routes. investing in things like my own personal development, in coaching with personal coaching for myself or programs for myself that I find interesting. traveling with our kids, like planning vacations To make memories with them and strengthen those relationships.

And if we talk about them feeling extra, what would you give up in order to have any of those things right now? all financial decisions are about trade-offs, essentially. So it's, what am I giving up in order to have that thing? So if we were to pick any of these things, your finances at the moment could be such that, if I wanted to spend money on this, then it would require me to spend less on that.

I don't feel like, I don't know how true this statement is, but it feels to me like there's not the cash to start spending those. So it would probably be incurring debt if I wanted to do that now, if it were to bring in more income via me getting a job, it would be giving up, the bandwidth or the attention that I'm able to focus now on building a business or whatever. that's what comes to mind right now.

So it's interesting what you just did and it's productive. You went, you came at this from two directions. First you talked about the cost of the things that you want in cash terms. And then you talked about the cost of the cash in time terms. Okay. Which is appropriate because yeah, I can either, spend cash on the things I want in exchange for whatever else the cash would've done, which in this case, it sounds like the cash is currently facilitating lack of debt.

That is interesting because in my mind it feels really hard to come up with specifics because I feel like what I actually want is the. Ability or the feeling that comes with knowing that I can.

Good. Okay.

to I, identify this is how much I would spend on this particular specific vacation, because I feel like if I actually had that amount of money, it would be hard for me to actually spend it on that vacation, because it's more of the feeling that I could do this if I wanted. and to me I'm like, that just means that I just have a lot of money sitting in the bank and I know about myself that if there's money sitting there, I'm gonna keep it there, because if I spend it, then it's gone.

Yeah. I tend to agree with everything you just said. I often say that there are no money problems. There's no such things truly as money problems. There are, relationship problems. And those relationship problems can be relationship with self or others. In this case, you've already gotten yourself to a lot of clarity, which is you have it. Even if I had the money, I don't know that I could let go of it. That becomes the most interesting line of inquiry for you.

I feel like it's a security thing. Okay. which is interesting because I've, throughout my life, there has never been a time where I haven't had what I needed. Like I've never gone without. So it's not like I'm afraid. And maybe that's what's scary is that I never have. And so I don't know if I could survive if it were to happen. So I better not let it happen so I don't have to figure out if I come out the other end. Yeah, I think it, I think there's some security in it.

can we spend a little time there?

Yeah.

It can be helpful when we realize that maybe we're seeking security and maybe that pursuit of security is coming from some sort of fear of the worst case scenario. Sometimes it's helpful to, vividly imagine the worst case scenario because it's not here, and since it's not here, we can pretend it's here and still feel relative safety. So talk through what would be a very scary scenario in your finances.

Say we lose our income and live off our savings for as long as that lasts. And so that's gone and we have nothing. We can't meet our financial obligations, I'm sure there's family that could help us a little bit. our church community, I'm sure could step in and help for a little bit.

what are your financial obligations? what are the financial obligations that feel at risk if your income goes away?

our mortgage is really the only thing I. That we have. Okay. then car insurance would go away. So we would have our cars, but we wouldn't drive them. We couldn't fill 'em with gas. I think we would just be, what comes up is like the embarrassment of we'd have to rely on other people. Other people would know. there's a lot of shame in, how could we let ourselves get into this situation?

What is the likelihood if I ask you to just. try to consider this as though it's a possibility. What is the likelihood that you end up, without a roof over your head? Food to eat clothes. if we go to the most basic subsistence kinds of things, shelter, food, clothing, healthcare, what is the likelihood that you find yourself without access to those things because of a loss of income?

I would say it would depend on how long it lasted, but it's not a high possibility.

What comes to mind as the thing that will protect you from it?

We have people that would help support us through that, and I don't think it would, it's not like we lose our ability to bring in income. Maybe the current way we do it is, but I'm sure we would figure out another way to bring in income. So I don't think it would be lasting and we have those safety nets to fall back on for a little bit if we needed it.

what if for some reason, neither you nor your husband could generate a dollar of income? What would be your prospects then?

I guess I do feel like we would be destitute because I feel like the safety nets of family and church. Would only go for so long, they wouldn't be indefinite. So there would come a point where we would have exhausted those as supports and then we would be left with

nothing What would be the implication of nothing?

What

Describe life?

it would just be so hard. Like, where's our next meal coming from? where are we gonna stay for the night? I just picture the people in downtown that are living out of grocery carts.

One of the ways to, Have real clarity around the worst case scenario is to test along the way probabilities and it's an unscientific process. It's a thought experiment process. So the way I'll frame that back to you is, describe the probability considering the safety nets. You've mentioned family. Church. Describe the probability that you would find yourself uncertain about your next meal or, where you're gonna sleep that night. Probably

pretty

low. Why? Probably pretty low,

because I feel like our relationships would always be a resource for us. There would always be somebody that we could turn to, losing our stuff and our material sustenance we would still have our relationships and that could be a source of providing those basic things.

Yeah, it could. My sense is that you probably aren't, you're probably not that concerned about that actually happening when we talk about things going very badly for you financially. As I'm watching you, there's not any obvious signs of like real emotional resonance with the idea of being so destitute that you don't know where your next meal is gonna come from or where you're gonna sleep that night.

That's a good assessment.

What that tells me is that you actually got yourself to the truth of the matter a few minutes ago when you said, I would be embarrassed if something about my material world changed so much that it was apparent, that would be really shameful and embarrassing for me.

Yeah, and I was thinking a minute ago, I think part of my identity is tied up in being financially independent. I've been told by my parents as well as my in-laws, they have told, made a comment to us that we are the only ones out of their children who have never come to them and asked for help financially. and I think that has become a part of my identity of we are smart with money. We make good choices.

I'm not gonna ask you to name names, obviously you wouldn't, and you don't even have to name relationships. But I want you to think about, does anybody come to mind who has acted differently than that, where you're aware of them behaving with money in a way that you haven't or wouldn't? Yeah. Can you, again, no names or relationships, but can you just describe the scenario to me?

Yeah. I knew someone that was, had invested, they got they were a victim of a Ponzi scheme, and so they ended up declaring bankruptcy. I have another person that bought a home that was not within their income and he then ended up losing his job and they had this house that they couldn't really afford. Yeah. Those are the two that are top of my mind.

in the most unfiltered way possible, if you try not to catch the words as they come into your mind and outta your mouth. Talk to me about your feelings, just your, give me your thought stream about the people who, bought the house that they seemed not to be able to afford.

at the time I was just like, what are you doing? I just thought they were so foolish and I thought that they were so worried about what other people thought that they made a bad choice, that they should have been more, savvy with realizing, how overextending yourself financially can lead to problems down the road.

So the first word you said there was foolish, or one of the first words you said there was foolish. Can you say more about foolish?

I feel like I was just raised with such a, don't spend more than you make type of mentality. That it's just simple math to me. Like how much do you make? I feel like there's always that weight of, being able to realize how much is too much, what is realistic, what is a smart way to take what you have available and use it, make it last. Very, we grew up very frugally.

rate your, on one of these, strongly disagree to strongly agree scales. if you can in a as unfiltered way as possible, respond to this statement. Spending money is foolish.

Which side is strongly agree tan?

Are you saying strongly agree?

It depends on what you're spending the money on. And that goes back to wanting to live according to my values. Because for me, spending money on high quality food, organic and whole and all the things is not a foolish way to spend money.

Okay.

So if it's aligned with my values, then I think that's the blessing of having money as you get the option to choose. which is tricky because my values and my husband's values don't, when it comes to spending money don't necessarily align. And that's where a lot of the friction comes from.

Okay. We'll get there. Appreciate you sharing that. the specificity of spending money on high quality food is useful. We can run with that for a second. right now, are you spending money on high quality food in the way that you think you'd like to?

I am pro approaching it, but I can't. And not a hundred percent.

What percent, would you just throw a number out?

I would say 50, 40 to 50%.

What is the obstacle to the other 50 or 60% in your mind? The budget?

Yeah.

Who sets the grocery budget?

my husband and I.

does the grocery budget feel, Movable to you does, you're saying there's friction. Do you feel like more money could go to groceries that isn't going to groceries?

the actual numbers, I'm not sure the bigger friction comes with. would my husband and I agree on the numbers. He, I mean our kids are starting to leave the home, so he's like, why are we still spending like you, your grocery budget should be getting smaller because we're feeding less people even taking into account prices and inflation and all of that. So I feel like I'm just trying to, Fight for the current budget.

Is this an actual conversation that has happened? Where does he want the extra money to go? the grocery budget we're shrinking

to savings.

Okay. The, I sorry to laugh, but there's really one of two directions that can go. It's gonna be like golf and motorcycles. Or savings. Yeah. Frankly, the answer is very revealing about a personality type. Yeah. and it's not a bad one either. It's not like one's good and one's bad. Is he like a conservatively wired human being?

Yes.

Yes.

Very much in his

profession and in his spending habits

Yeah.

Okay. it's possible, and I could be wrong, but sometimes there are people for whom just the reduction in spending in a category is its own victory. And I don't know whether that describes your husband and I don't know whether that describes you. It might.

I feel like we have over the last years, we have been so focused on the reduction that it feels like there's not a whole lot left to reduce. which is probably why we're both like looking at me saying, why don't you just start bringing in more that might feel better than keep cutting and reducing. Because it feels like there's not much left to reduce.

Yeah. And that's useful. And you've given me the impression that if you were to go get a job and bring in X hundred dollars per week or X thousand dollars per week, those are very different scenarios, I acknowledge. But if it's in the say X hundred dollars per week, my sense is that it's not, that there would necessarily feel like a bunch of freedom to go spend that on the highest quality foods and et cetera.

Yeah. that's the interesting thing is that what I said in the beginning, how my income has always been seen as wants. if I started bringing in money, I would not put it in the family pot. I would keep it separate. for several years I owned a music studio, so I had my own income. all of that money, the way that I used it for our family was, we were planning a vacation. I said, oh, I will pay for the airfare.

is this a spoken or an unspoken contract between you and your husband? That, your money is our money, but my money is my money.

I don't know if it's spoken per se, but it's definitely how it has been in the past.

Has he ever, in the past, did he ever make comments about the studio money and like, why does that just get to be you at your full discretion?

I don't recall him ever saying that. in some regards, I do feel like his, and I don't know if he would agree with this, but I've always seen his income as his. Money. we do have conversations about expenditures, big ones, but I've never felt total ownership in spending the family money unless we've agreed upon it.

and does, we've agreed upon it mean, I'm jumping to a conclusion here, so I want you to correct me. Are you essentially saying that you have deferred to him on final financial decisions through the years other than with the money that you generate through a side job or a music studio, et cetera?

so from his income, I have some of that income that I'm in charge of, the groceries and. Certain things that money is supposed to cover, and I can spend that as long as I, have what I need for those identified expenses. and then he manages the rest of it. so it is even though it's his, in his paycheck that fills that pot.

would that be like a car, a home renovation? what would be big things where he would say, Hey, I think this is what we need to do.

it's basically if it's gonna dip into savings, those bigger. Occasional purposes. it's funny, this is just a little example, but I noticed that sometimes we'll go to dinner and we'll take our kids that are left home and we'll bring them with us. they always say, thanks, dad for dinner. And I'm just like, I think we all see it at his money. and he's the one that will decide can we take everyone? And if we are taking everyone, then which restaurant are we going to? How much are we looking at?

slight tangent as we explore this. Okay. how do you and your husband talk about desire? from our conversation so far, I can tell that you, and it seems that he both have very strong, duty frames and, correctness and The word needs, like the word needs, basic needs, these kinds of things. What kind of conversations do the two of you have around desire or wants?

we don't really, because, let's imagine like just try to dream and those conversations are always just slapped with reality. That could never happen. We no, we can't even do this right now. How could we ever, and so I just stopped. It's too depressing.

Slapped with reality is an interesting thing because, to call that reality, if we were just to speak in coaching terms, it's that where you view possibility. He does not. but because he gets to rely on current w twos and current bank balances, we call his thing reality as though there's no, dynamic nature to this, that It's a fixed thing and there's no evolution available in it. Yeah. Not an accountant. He's an engineer. Must be an engineer anyway. Doesn't matter. I'm just joking.

Very much

Yes. And there's also this undercurrent of, feeling invalidated in your desires in the way that you just described, where it's you used the word slapped where it's slapped away.

I've been working with another coach on like my money mindset, and I can get in a really good place mentally with it until I have to think about the family finances. And it's such a hard work to bring myself out of scarcity, but then to feel like my husband is in scarcity and he's not making any effort to change that. And so it feels like I have a foot in each, oh, I'm trying to think more abundantly and, change things. But the day-to-day reality of our conversations around money.

you're describing really well right now, by the way. why I, for the most part, avoid conversations and coaching around whatever money mindset is. I did the other day have a coaching friend give me a definition for money mindset that I liked, which is the first time in 15 years of coaching where I was like, okay, I can live with that. I tend to avoid the phrases, money, mindset, scarcity, abundance, because I'm not saying you're not doing good work there.

I think I could say something like that and he would listen. I don't know that it would actually translate to much changing in his behavior, in our actual conversations.

keep talking along that line. What wouldn't change?

it feels like we just look through things in such different lenses that he would be willing to sit and listen to me describe whatever I see through my lens. And he would listen and, be very kind and open to hearing. But he would still retain his own lens of how he sees things. And I do believe that you can connect with someone without sharing the same lens. I am not sure what that would feel like.

that feels foreign or far away, that possibility.

We have had discussions where I can tell that he's listening to what I say and he has a different viewpoint, but he is listening and sometimes he'll even oh yeah, I've not thought of that. Or he seems like he's open to seeing how I see. But then, the next day or whatever his behavior indicates there was no change. There was no, like he said, oh yeah, that I like that. I really, yeah, I see where that's true. And then his behavior just goes back to what it's always been.

you're right. You might, I don't know. the way I prefer to frame this is not about expectations and needs, it's about desires. Okay. and we can really never go wrong when we hold on to desire and honestly and openly share desire with the person who's our, we're in life partnership with. in that example, when you say, we'll have conversations and he'll, there'll seem to be connection and he'll validate and he'll agree, but then I don't see a change in behavior in a very practical way.

I don't think so. There's not a surprise tax bill.

Actually, I was gonna say, if there is savings, the way to bring some really interesting stuff to the surface would be to say, I'm going, I would like to use some savings for fill in the blank desire. There would be a great conversation that would be very useful and revealing. Yes, it would. and it would be incredible practice for the relationship to stay in a discussion of desire. That's honest and open where no one self betrays.

I think so. Yeah. I think I probably protect my desires, so I'm okay to hold them. I just don't share them with him because it brings up too much negative emotion when he doesn't respond in the way that feels easier to hold those desires for myself. So it's easier to just keep it to myself. And figure out, I gotta bring in my own, I gotta figure out how to meet the desires. I'm on my own with that.

And, what that does is it now officially takes us over from anything that has anything to do with money and reveal something that's very true about your experience of your relationship, which is when it comes to some of my dearest desires I feel alone, I feel disconnected that Yeah, for sure. And that is, frankly, in my opinion, that's where there are. Much bigger gains to be had in terms of your overall happiness and fulfillment than in anything that would relate to money or consumption.

great.

I'd like to talk again and we can see what that session looks like. Okay. what feels like good homework, if any? 'cause the answer can be, no homework is good homework, but what might like you go, what might you like to go do with any of the insights you've had today?

That's a good question. I feel like my awareness is pretty decent. but action items, what to do. as I'm becoming aware and do want to focus on, like you said, they're at the end. Like this reveals, I think there's other relationship issues. but my solution is always like to keep the responsibility with me. okay, what do I need to do? I think I've gotten myself as far as I can without involving him.

Yeah. for me, what you said is maybe more profound than you might even realize when you say something like, I've taken this as far as I can on my own. I don't know if you mean this, but for me, that has nothing to do with money. we both believe that we actually achieve our greatest potential in relationship, not alone. And what we find is the hardest and highest paying work is in relationship. And scariest and most exciting and et cetera.

Yeah. That feels hard.

Good news. It is. Yeah, it is. But doable. Yeah, for sure. And we also do come up against, it's hard, but we end up having to choose the hard, which hard do I wanna choose? Do I wanna choose the heart of the status quo? I'm very familiar with the heart of the status quo. Or do I choose the hard of a new possibility?

that's true.

Sometimes people say, I don't have the energy, I don't have the bandwidth right now to mess with the status quo. I'm gonna stay in the status quo. Maybe try to heal or try to get some new energy. Absolutely. I support that. And then other times it's no, it's time to challenge the status quo. It's time to pick the difficulty of the unknown and try for a new normal.

Yeah. it just brings up like the willingness of both people, but I can only ask and offer and see where that goes.

What you wouldn't wanna do, in my opinion, is based on your assumption of his response, which I do trust, don't misunderstand. You know him, I know you know him, but you would not want to use that as cover. For avoiding the discomfort that you would feel in revealing yourself to him in a new way and at a deeper level.

Describe what you mean by cover?

it's just a different way of saying don't use his assumed resistance as an excuse to resist yourself.

I see. Okay.

We do this sometimes I don't have to expose myself in a new way because I know how they're gonna respond, so I get to stay in my comfort zone and it's his fault. Okay. Gotcha. Somebody does have to go first and do the scary thing.

I can do scary things.

Yeah, I believe you. I know you have. Okay. One other little side project. I don't wanna distract you 'cause that's the good word. you're gonna do amazing stuff there. A little side project to reveal more of your thinking and to make this the set of decisions maybe a little clearer.

Okay. I like that.

But I'm gonna acknowledge that's gonna feel easier and there's gonna be more dopamine available in that process. So let me not distract you from, like the richer, more rewarding project over here. you have my link. I wanna talk to you again in the near future.