Episode: 99: Depth and Complexity with Tina Wyman

Welcome to I'm Andy McNair, an educator, speaker This podcast is all about embracing the chaos and creativity that comes with nurturing gifted minds. Whether you're a parent, teacher, or lifelong learner, join me as we uncover strategies, share stories, and inspire action to create meaningful impact. Together, let's find meaning in the mess. Hey you guys and welcome to episode ninety nine of

Ugh, just like every episode, I'm excited about this one, but I'm always really excited when I have a special guest on to talk about a specific topic. And that's exactly what's gonna be happening on today's episode. We're gonna be sharing about death. uh the icons, depth and complexity itself, why that's so important for our gifted learners. And my special guest today has a lot of experience with the depth and complexity icons. I also use those

classroom and it was a game changer. Like it gave me a practical way to make something big like depth and complexity a priority in my classroom. And so as we talk through today, we're going to talk about what it is specifically how it can be used and just encourage you to think about what this might look like in your classroom and how it could be used with your gifted learners. So without further ado, Tina Tina Wyman is on my is my special guest today. Sorry.

Not getting my words together. Tina Wyman is my special guest today, and I'm so excited for you guys to hear from her. Just really, what does it look like? to use this in a gifted classroom and how can it give us, like I said earlier, that opportunity to provide the depth of complexity that we know is so

So Tina, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited that you're here. Can you tell us a little bit about, like just introduce yourself to us? Tell us a little bit about what you do and anything else you think it's important for us to know. Sure, Andy. Um my name is Tina Wyman and I work in Longview, Texas. at Pine Tree ISD. And I've only been here for four years. Um, but prior to that, um born and raised in Canada, so my teaching career started there. And we moved to Texas

um in 1997. So from 1998 forward I've been teaching in Texas, mostly at the younger grades. And then about 16 years ago, I got moved to the gifted and talented classroom in the district I was working at. And I worked there for 12 years. And then four years ago, like I said, I moved here to Pine Tree ISD, and I am the district GT coordinator, but I also do pull-out classes from kindergarten to fourth grade.

That's a big job to be the coordinator and also do the pullout services. I know that's the case for a lot of those of you that are listening as well. So many, so many hats. And I want to be sure that I'm clear. Um, if you want to learn more about the icons, and this will be in the show notes. Man, the Depth and Complexity Institute is a great place, a great resource for that. I feel like that's what it's still called. Anyway, I'll put the correct name.

in the show notes you guys can check it out but it's depthcomplexity dot So definitely a resource that you might want to look at as we're talking or if you want to explore this further. And again, I'll mention that at the end of the episode. So uh I thought it would be a good idea to start for anyone who maybe hasn't heard of the depth and complexity icons or maybe they've heard of them and they're just not exactly sure what they are. Tina, how would you describe

Um, the depth and complexity icons to someone. Like what would you say if somebody said, What are the depth and complexity icons? Um, I think depth and complexity can be really overwhelming and intimidating for people who really don't understand uh what they are and what they're used for. Um, and it's so easy to incorporate them into your already developed instructional practices. So I think a lot of the times it seems more complex than it really is.

Um, I would have to say depth and complexity is a way that we help our students think like experts. not just memorizing facts, but actually understanding how things work, why they matter, and how they connect to the bigger picture, which is real world. The visual tools, which are the icons, they just act like thinking prompts, and each one represents a different way to dive deeper into a topic. For example, we might ask

What are the rules behind this? Another might say, what's the big idea here? Or are there different points of view, multiple perspectives? It works for all ages. It works for any subject, reading, math, science, history, art, music, and it helps students how to learn how to ask better questions. uh find patterns, think critically, make connections across ideas. It's not just about knowing the what, it's also about the why and how and the how behind things.

In a nutshell, I guess I would say depth and complexity trains kids to think like historians, scientists, writers, critical thinkers, and problem solvers.

Starting from a really young age. We start depth and complexity in our kindergarten program here at Pontree. Yeah, that's so great. keys um with the depth and complexity icons is to start using them as soon as possible because as they learn to think that way, because that's exactly what it is, is a way of thinking. I know that John Gould, who actually I think runs the Center for Depth and Complexity, I knew the institute.

The center for depth and complexity. Um, but I I've spoken with him before and he's explained to me how um his mom, Betty Gould, and Sandra Kaplan really created these eyes. as a way for learners to do just what you said, to think like it And that seems like such a big idea, you know, when you talk to your learners about, Okay, I want you to think like a historian or I want you to think like a scientist and I think what these icons do

It's kind of like you explained, like it gives us a framework. It gives us a specific way to make that happen. And I know that when I was in the class. That was just so helpful because when you say to me, you know, I want your students to think like a historian Like, that sounds like a great idea. I have no idea how to do that. The icons give us a practical way to make that happen. So

That is awesome. You know, I don't know if you remember saying this, Tina, but one time you shared with me. I don't remember if we were on a phone call or if you emailed me, but you said that you thought the icons were like a telescope telling your brain how to zoom in. And that that's what you share with your learners. And I love that. So, how do your kids respond to that when you tell them that's what it is and that's what it helps them do?

Well, when I talk to them about that, I'm usually have a bucket of little mini telescopes beside me. And we of course take the scalp telescopes, we talk about what they do, we look at different things and kind of zoom in. And then I typically bring my learners for what we call a depth and complexity. scavenger hunt and we go with our telescopes. We walk all over the school building. We go outside. We go in the library, in the gym, in the cafeteria. We go anywhere we can on a school

um campus and we just talk about what we're seeing. We talk about what it means to zoom into things. And I find that if you do something that engages them, they're moving around, they're thinking, they're talking while they're zooming, it just really helps make the connection for them. Yeah, gosh, what a great way. I love that idea of this guy. And I know we may talk about that a little more in detail and a little bit later in our time together, but I think that is such a great idea to do.

Leave it open-ended at first and giving your learners the opportunity to seek those out. You know, because it's funny, you know, I've used depth and complexity.

So long. I always joke that even when I'm arguing with my husband, you know, I tend to think that way. Like, oh, this is multiple perspectives or this is ethics. He's like, I don't care. I just want to finish this argument and know who's right and who's wrong. But I think for me Even using the icons as an adult gives me an opportunity to do exactly what you said, that idea of seeing things through.

that telescope. So um hopefully you kind of have a a an idea now of what the icons are if you're listening again. The Center for Depth and Complexity is a great place to access some of these resources. I also want to say that there are 11 icons Right. That up. Yes. There are 11 icons. And we'll talk a little bit more about those as we go through this episode so that this begins to make a little more sense for.

Uh one of the questions that I wanted to ask, this is really important because I have had this conversation with so many educators lately, this idea of really being intentional about gifted services and asking ourselves, how is what we're doing in the classroom.

specifically growing our gifted learners. And, you know, those pull-out services that we're providing, the push-in services, whatever that is, how is that growing our gifted learners? So what do you think? How do you think depth and complexity grows our gifted learners? Incorporating depth and complexity as a regular teaching practice has so many benefits to offer not only our gifted students, but I think it's just a really good way of thinking for all learning.

And the depth and complexity icons are definitely tools that are designed to help our students think critically, to think deeply about the things that they're learning. And when they're used effectively in the classroom, students grow in so many different ways. So I think one of the ways they grow is cognitively, and the depth and complexity icons create higher ordered thinking. They allow our students to think more abstractly and definitely bring in metacognition skills.

So um they're developed by moving students up the blooms ladder. So instead of starting at the bottom, they're really focusing on the analyzing, synthesizing, and evaluating. And by helping students underline understand the underlying concepts, not just memorizing and regurgitating those facts. So that's the more abstract thinking. And of course, it's always encouraging our students to reflect on their own thinking as well as the thinking of the other people in the classroom.

So that's definitely one way. Academically, the depth and complexity icons you can apply to anything, so all subjects across your school campus. and they're understanding through structured thinking. So again, structuring your thinking to zoom in specifically on what that icon is asking you to think about. Um they build academic vocabulary, okay, that's one of the icons, and increase a student's ability to write and communicate in a much deeper way.

So we're going from surface level thinking to diving really deep into the concepts that we're learning. So they prompt the students to ask more questions and of course their questioning becomes more open ended and thought provoking. And I think by encouraging students to explore beyond the surface level of the content, um, it allows them to dive deeper into their learning. Um

Creatively, the icons blend content areas in new and innovative ways across the disciplines. They're very flexible, provoking student voice and choice. which allows students to make the exploration of specific content extremely personal to them. And finally, I think the icons foster improved um with regard improvement with regards to empathy, the acceptance that there are multiple perspectives within the same subject or the same content.

um some ethical thinking, moral reasoning comes into play, and of course confidence and independence as they become a problem solver and a critical thinker.

I love that. I think that as as you were talking, I was thinking if I was listening to this episode right now and I was listening to some of the things that you were saying, I would have probably perked up at like, ooh, this teaches my l learners to think flexibly or to it gives them the opportunity to see someone else's perspective.

really make some of those important connections. Those are things that so often we as teachers say, like that's what we want to be happening in our classroom. But then the question becomes, how do we make And I think the depth and complexity icons really fill in that gap of how do we do that? How do we provide this depth and complexity? How do we give them the opportunity to make those. And you said something at the very beginning of that conversation about when the icons are used effectively.

And I think that's a really important thing to point out. Um I've seen the icons used effectively. I've also seen the icons not used effectively. And I think it's important that we say, you know, slapping an icon The board. Let's just use this example. Language of the discipline, which is one of the icons. You can't have your students writing vocabulary. out of the back of a textbook or copying vocabulary off of the board.

And slap up the language of the discipline icon. Like it's more active than passive, I think is what I would say. It's a good idea for when you're utilizing those icons for it to be a more active approach than passive. And I think if we're not careful, That, you know, kind of uneffective use of the icons becomes oh, I'm just going to put an icon up, and it's going to be more about the icon than it is about what my learners.

And even in talking to uh John Gould, that was one of the things that he said to me was, you know, they never wanted it to be about just the icon. It was about the learning that takes place and the way that students are thinking because So what do you do? Is that something you would agree with? Like does that make sense? Yes, and I will say when I first started teaching GT and I started to hear about the depth and complexity icons.

My impression of that was I had to jump in with all eleven icons. And so I was that person that put the posters up on my wall and I had some question stems and some sentence starters, but I just kinda was rolling with all eleven and if somebody said something I would jump in and say, Oh, that's the icon, you know, and I'd name whatever it was. And then as I kinda got going

that became extremely overwhelming for me. And so I know if I was overwhelmed that my kids were overwhelmed and that's when I I just took a step back and I said, Okay, you know, my kids are in second grade, which ones would be the best to incorporate in my instructional practices right now?

And then we started building upon one after the other rather than that big jump in, I have to, you know, two feet in and I'm gonna do all eleven at one time. So I think a lot of people still have that thought is They see the eleven icons and it just becomes so overwhelming that they don't even know where to start or maybe they don't even wanna start at that point'cause it just seems like it's so much.

Yeah, I think that's so true. I think it's that intentionality piece of like, okay, what icons make the most sense? for the work we're doing at this grade level or what icons make the most sense for what we're doing this six weeks or this nine weeks and knowing what you're going to introduce and also why you're going to introduce

I think that's better than just like, okay, I'm gonna do them just in order. Like when your learners can actually make the connection between what the icon is and the work that they're doing, you're gonna get a much better return on your investment. And so I agree. I I think I kind of did the same thing. At first I got so excited about the icons and I was like, oh, let's do them all. All right.

And and then as I began to introduce them, I was like, Man, this is um same, right? Overwhelming for me. So it must be overwhelming. I ended up introducing them through a book study that we did. We read a novel and we kind of were able to weave the icons into that.

And as I started to slow things down, I kind of had the same experience. Like I wanted them to really understand the icons and I wanted them to get to a place where they could think that way without the icon being And I knew that using all of the iconic. probably not gonna give me that result. So I think a lot of teachers probably experienced the same thing

Like, oh this is a lot of icons. So I do I do introduce um certain concepts for each grade level, but I let my kids kind of determine when I'm gonna move on to the next level. So when I see that they're comfortable, they're consistently using it in their own words and their own interpretations, then I know that they're probably ready for me to add another one. And I kind of gear my teachers to do the same thing.

pick one, one or two that is, you know, is gonna be beneficial for you with whatever it is that's going on in your classroom, and then stick with those until everybody, including myself, is comfortable with the questioning, with the sentence stems, and how that just naturally becomes part of our learning process in the classroom, then we're ready to move on to something.

Oh, I love that. That's such a good idea. You know, and and I think that's you know, when you introduce this idea to other teachers and we're helping them think through what this will look like in their classroom, you know, you don't want to overwhelm them either. There is enough overwhelming. Yes. Eleven icons. This idea of of just giving them the opportunity to learn about and introduce a couple at a time.

and a really good idea. Okay, so we've talked about some of this, but we haven't gone too deep into um kind of why do you make this a priority. I think about, you know, the work that I did in my gifted classroom and, you know, there were clear reasons that I made Genius Hour and Depth and Complexity, those were a priority for specific reasons. So what would you say are some of the reasons that you've made depth and complexity? Prower.

That's a great question and something that I try to focus on through not only my G uh um sorry, my GT pull up classes, but with the teachers when they're asking me to come in and and model or observe in the classroom. Making depth and complexity a priority isn't about adding another teaching strategy. It's about transforming surface level learning to learning that is much more meaningful, rich, and rigorous. It builds critical things.

Say that one more time. Say what you just said about surface level. I just want to make sure everybody catches that. Okay. Uh transforming surface level learning to learning that is more meaningful, rich, and rigorous. So that's huge. Um and moving on from that, it builds critical thinkers. So often, you know, we're in that state where right now everybody's star testing and we're worried about testing strategies and all those types of things. But

The depth and complexity teaches our kids how to be critical thinkers. And it's not just about the testing strategies or the skills that you need. It allows students to build skills far beyond that rote memorization, the thinking skills that stem from using the icons. help students really thrive in real world problem solving and then of course building on in their future high school, college, and then when they go out in the career world as well.

I think the icons help deepen understanding. So they move beyond the what to the how and the why, leading more meaningful comprehension across all subjects. Um again that is helping create those independent thinking skills. Um, I think it makes learning more engaging. So students love the challenge of thinking deeply when it's framed as exploration. So the icons provide structure all while following a little bit of freedom on how you think and how you express that.

And it turns worksheets into investigations and lectures into dialogues that then I'm happy between the student rather than the teacher being the one who is delivering most of the information. So I think that one's a really important one.

For sure. I love that idea of turning worksheets into investigations. Like uh that's so important. And then the whole lectures into dialogues, like those things are really, really important. They're not minor, they're major because those are the things that make kids want to be at school. And I think too oh I'm gonna say But I think that um we've got to get past this idea since it is

and let's just say this out loud, we've got to get past this idea of thinking that for a kid to do well on that test, we have to spoon feed them strategies. I'm not suggesting that every strategy is a bad idea. But what I am suggesting is if we get back to that place of like critical thinking and problem solving and teaching them how to think through that instead of like here are the tricks you can use and here are the things you can do to make sure, like that stuff's gonna take care of itself.

And I think we tend not to trust that like, well, what if it doesn't? Well, if it doesn't, then we have to have a conversation about the tests that we're giving because when our kids have those skills about problem solving. and and thinking deeply and reaching that understanding, those are the things, like you said, that are going to be not only beneficial on a test, but also beyond the walls of a classroom.

Such a good point. Yeah. Okay. I think I might have interrupted you. Go ahead. Do you have anything else to share? That's okay. Um yeah, so uh prioritizing differentiation as well. We have students who need to be differentiated on multiple different levels in different ways, and the icons can help you differentiate in both directions.

You can scaffold back a little bit and help your learner. You can differentiate a little bit forward and have your students diving deeper into content. So I think that's another um reason that we should be using them in the classroom. It allows students to take more ownership in their learning.

So we are putting the learning back on the student rather than being the teacher delivering the information, which is more that rote memorization. They're actively engaged in researching and communicating and collaborating and those types of things. Um the icons help kind of

bridge that for students in the classroom. And I just think it's a powerful tool for teachers. If they take their time and work through the icons one at a time and really get to know how they can benefit not only them but the kids in their classroom. It's just an amazing thing to see. And um students just learn so much better when they are actively engaged in that type of learning.

Yeah, that that whole actively engaged is huge. You know, and it's one of those things that when you experience it, you have the aha moment. When you go from, because I always say I went from that traditional teacher to that innovative educator, and it was like night and day when we went from that passive approach of learning being done to them. to this idea of them being actively involved

Like that's not rocket science. But for me, it was, it was a different approach. Not that I didn't try innovative things before, but the d the depth and complexity icons were a big part of that for me, that shift to actively them being engaged.

Um, okay, so this is probably the part that a lot of people have been waiting for on today's episode. Um I know we jumped a little bit ahead and talked about some of this, but let's just talk about some practical ways that you can make the icons a priority in your classroom. And if you're listening I think this is important because Tina's gonna share something.

had a little sneaky look at what she was going to be sharing before we talked. And I think some of the things that she's going to be sharing are a different way to think about the icons. Like even as I looked at them, I was like, oh, I haven't really thought about using

that way or that's a really different approach. So if you're taking notes, uh this this is definitely the time you're gonna want to write some of these down. If you're driving, don't take notes, but you can always go back and listen and I will also share these in the show. Okay, Tina, we're ready for the practical ideas and how you can implement this in the classroom. Okay, well first and foremost, and I've kind of already touched on this, don't jump in with all eleven. So

do an icon of a week or an icon every two weeks. You could even do an icon a month depending on, you know, the age of your learners and what you're studying and what icons actually pertain to the content you're teaching. But choose that one icon to spotlight. and then weave it into absolutely everything you have going on in the classroom. Doesn't matter the subject, it doesn't matter the time of day, if it's reading, if it's math, if it's science, social studies, art, music, PE.

Get everybody on board to teaching that one depth and complexity icon with your kids and trying to bring it into everything that they're doing throughout the day. So definitely that was probably my biggest learning curve when I started to teach and use the depth and complexity icons. Making sure you have anchor charts.

Lots of anchor charts around the room, build those reference charts that include the icon, what it means, uh sentence starters, question stems, all those types of things so your students can have something to refer to. They're going to need some guidance along the way. And we all know that once they get comfortable using an anchor chart, knowing where it's located in the classroom, that's going to be their go-to when they know that you want them thinking through that lens or through that icon.

So that's huge to me. Um Using the icons to guide student-led discussion and questioning. So that's a big one. You need to let them know again what lens they're supposed to be looking through or thinking through. to discuss whatever the content is that you are learning. And then they are going to learn how to question each other using that poster, the anchor charts that have the question stems. Again, the sentence starters.

and aligning those to each of the icons to deepen discussions, those are also going to help them in their writing. And we know that writing is a is a big deal and it's getting pushed further and further back into the younger grades. And so if you have your kids thinking through the depth and complexity icons, they're going to use that when they're writing as well because that's just how their brain is going to naturally think about things.

And so I think that can be really helpful as well. Journal prompts, use the icons to drive reflection in your journal writing or your storytelling. You can do exit tickets. One exit ticket I use quite frequently is getting the kids to let me know if they still have any unanswered questions about things that we have been learning in class. It gives them a way to reflect.

It allows them to maybe write a question that they wouldn't necessarily raise their hand and share if it was something that they thought. you know for themselves that they should already know or maybe they feel silly about what they were thinking. An exit ticket little sticky note. They just write their question, they put up on the board on the way out the door. Graphic organizers.

Creating visual tools where students sort ideas using the icons either independently or within groups. I use a lot of frames, depth and complexity frames, where we might have one topic in the middle, but four different lenses to look through, or we might have one lens and we're talking about multiple multiple subjects, multiple content. So I do flip those.

Um, of course, for the older kids, we would more work on the one lens, the four topics, where the younger ones might have to think about it. They're not going to have as much background knowledge to be able to do that sort of framework. So I use those a lot in my GT pull-out classes. Um comparing things across disciplines can also be done in that framework. And then um project based learning. So um most of what I do in my GT pull up class involves some kind of project based learning.

And it is very easy, once you already have your project in place, to go back and add where those depth and complexity icons will fit. Um and I also do PD in the summer. where we work through project-based learning, especially for our SEER teachers. And then one of the big things I help them with is going back and adding all the depth and complexity, which is throughout their project.

They just haven't looked at it quite that way yet. So I think that's a really helpful um way that you can incorporate that. And then of course it can structure your group work. So you could have one topic in each group. looks through the lens of an icon and then they're sharing out at the end. So that's often how I do things in GT in my pull-up classes. Sometimes we do an around the room kind of keeper of the marker activity.

where I'll have different lenses on posters around the room and they'll be in small groups and they get maybe two or three minutes. to write as much as they can through that lens and then they move to the next poster and we kind of go around the room until everybody's had an opportunity to write on each poster and then that's a share out. They might take those posters and turn it into a extended response, which also helps.

um one of the strategies and the skills that they need for the star test that they are in the process of taking right now. So those are all, that's quite a few actually, lots of different ways. And those are kind of some of the things that I do on a consistent basis in my GT class. And those are activities that I share out to teachers who are interested in incorporating the icons within their classroom as well, with GT students and without.

And Pine Tree, we have a lot of teachers who don't have GT kids who are reaching out because they just know that's a great way of incorporating critical thinking and problem solving. So

Very cool. I love that. I I I so many ideas. Um I love the idea of using the frames in different ways. And if you want to learn more about those frames, uh the Center of Uh Depth and Complexity has a ton of resources and things you can check out. But I love that idea of using like maybe having the the content area or the topic in the middle and the different icons around it or the icon in the middle and different topics on the that's a very cool way to approach that.

Um did you mention Socratic seminars? I know that was something um did you say that and I'm Um no, I don't think I talked about that. Okay, so I think that's a great way Um, that's also a great way. You talked about PBL, which I think is amazing. I was just gonna mention if if you're thinking about using this with Socratic seminars and you're like,

need to be reminded what Socratic seminars are or like how would I do that? Episode eighty-three is what you guys want to go listen to because we talked about Socratic seminars. I thought it'd be really cool to listen to episode 83 and then listen to this depth and complexity I put those two pieces together. When you talked about PBL, obviously that made me think about passion-based learning. And I was thinking about just how the different icons fit into the six piece.

um and and how you could plug those icons into each part of the process, which again would be a way to give that gradual release. We're gonna use these icons in this part of the process, these icons in this part of the process. I think that would be a very cool way to help your learners actively experience those and learn about them as you kind of go through. Um, like for example, unanswered questions.

That could be what helps them figure out what their project is going to be. What are some questions I want to answer? What are some things that I want to learn about? Uh, multiple perspectives. That's the pitch, right? Other people are listening to my project and telling me what they think. There's just so many different ways to weave that in.

to some of the things that if you're listening that you're probably already doing in your classroom. And so that's that's really something I want to point out. All the ideas. um that Tina shared so good. And even if some of those ideas you're already doing, just how can I intentionally weave the icons into that to make it even more meaningful and to add more depth so that they get to that deeper understanding that we talked about.

Um gosh, those a lot of practical ideas, Tina. So good. And again, I'll make sure I share those in the show notes. All right, last question uh that I have for today's episode. What is some advice or what is your best advice? What is your best advice for someone wanting to utilize the depth and complexity icons in their own classroom? So if somebody's listening to this and they're like, ugh, I really want to get started with this. What would be your best piece of advice?

Um well, starting from something I've already said a few times throughout the podcast is start small. So definitely don't jump in with all eleven. Pick ones that you feel would best benefit your kids and then build that in over time. Um, not all of them are going to kind of apply to every content. um subject that you are doing at that time. So definitely pick the ones that you feel are best suited for your kids, their age, their grade, the content, and start there. And

Know that each icon is a specific kind of thinking. It's not a strategy. It's a lens through which you are going to teach your kids how to think. And so I think just knowing that um in itself kind of puts the icons in a different light for being in the classroom. Um, I do break the icons per my grades and I share that information out with my teachers. So my first grade teachers, whether they have GT kids or not, know what icons kind of are best suited for kids who are sick.

and in the content that they would be learning in first grade, second grade, and all the way up. By fourth grade, I pretty much expect my kids to be using the icons on a regular basis. So that's kind of how I structure that part. Um one of the things that I've done for my teachers Again, whether they have GT students or not is um I've done a Google Power presentation and in there I have a video description, uh sentence stamps, question stamps.

and real applications for all content areas and grades. So it took a lot of time to put together, but I share those just one a week or one every two weeks. Um, so teachers can kind of get a feel for what each icon um kind of is defined as and how it could be used in the classroom. And then I of course I offer to go down and model in the classroom or just be an extra pair of hands in the classroom as they're trying to incorporate those.

And I find that they really realize quickly that it's not as complicated as maybe it seems once they understand that it's a thinking lens and I just taking a different perspective of how you even incorporate that into the classroom. So the icons can be fun and meaningful. It gets students up, it gets them moving, it gets them thinking differently. We do as many hands-on activities as possible while we're introducing those icons, like the telescope.

and walking around the school kind of trying to be investigators. Um, that's a big one that I do for the younger kids, but when the fourth graders come in and see the telescope. They want to go for an icon walk because they know what the telescopes are for. And so we do. We just get up. And it's funny how the conversation changes between the comments and the questions I get from first graders.

All the way through second, third, and fourth graders. So you can really see the benefit that repeating and doing those activities. has on their thinking their ability to critically apply their knowledge to different real world problems and then of course just be problem solvers. The telescopes are also just like a fun prop, you know, but I don't want the kids to think that the telescopes are just that is a prop that we're gonna go play in the hall with.

They really do help students zoom in and understand that the icons help us take a look at things very differently. So anything that you can do to have that be a hands-on real learning experience for kids is gonna benefit them. They're gonna understand, they're gonna remember, they're gonna be excited about using those things more often.

We want our students to take ownership for their learning and using the icons as thinking prompts definitely helps them gain that deeper understanding of a topic. They take ownership for their learning, and that's where you can start to see the magic happening when kids are making these discoveries for themselves. And over time, those thinking prompts are going to just help students internalize those habits of experts.

And their conversations are going to change. The way they present information is going to change. The way they question is going to change. And ultimately, I think the icons help learners move beyond what do I need to know to what can I discover, question, and create. And I believe that is a classroom culture that's definitely worth building. Whether you have gifted and talented students or you're just teaching a general education class, it's just a great classroom culture.

Yeah, that's what it's all about, right? Is how do we build this culture? I've encouraged. to think deeply and to be an active participant in their own learning experiences. That's what it's about. And I

really do believe and I think both of us are talking from experience. I don't think either one of us are just like, oh, we just love the icons. Like, no, we used them in our classroom and we saw the benefit of that. And you're still seeing You know, when you when you have conversations with people who have used the icons to incorporate that definition.

That's that's such it's usually the same conversation. Like there's this payoff, this return on that investment. And I wanna be clear, I think there are so many ways to provide depth and complexity in the classroom. And uh the you know, these icons are one way to But for those of us that have used them, we've been able to see that it has changed the culture in our classroom and given our learners that opportunity.

To kind of be involved and be active. So gosh Tina, I just want to say how much I appreciate you being on this episode and sharing your experience. uh with the icons and talking about how we can make those connections. If you're listening and you want to reach out to Tina or have a question, Tina, is there some way that they can connect with you um if they want to know more about maybe maybe the scavenger hunt or maybe what this looks like. Here or there, like how can they come back?

Um yes, definitely. Um they can go ahead and email me. My email address is T Wyman, so it's T W Y M A N at PTIS D dot org. And I'd be more than happy to share or just kind of brainstorm some ideas if they were interested in trying some new things with depth and complexity.

Perfect. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. I hope you guys have enjoyed listening to this episode. Make sure you check out the show notes. I'll put some of the goodies there for you to learn some more and to find some free resources, things you can access to make this a priority in your I hope as always that this podcast helps you find a little meaning in your mess. You guys have a great day. We'll talk to you soon.

Thanks for listening to a Meaningful Mess podcast. Let's keep the conversation going. Follow me on Instagram at a underscore meaningful underscore mess. Visit my website at andymcnair.com for resources and opportunities for us to work with.

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