Episode 104: Big Talk, Deep Thinking: Moving Beyond Surface-Level Conversation in the Classroom

Welcome to A Meaningful Mess, the podcast where we embrace the beauty in the chaos of learning and life. I'm Andy McNair, educator, author, and advocate for passion-based learning and gifted learners. Here I share real stories, practical strategies, and honest conversations that remind us meaning is often found in the mess.

Whether you're a teacher looking for fresh ideas or someone passionate about empowering gifted learners to own their learning, this is your space to grow, reflect, and be inspired. Let's get started. Welcome to episode 104 of a Meaningful Mess podcast. Well, once again, I am really excited about what we're going to be talking about today because it's another one of the topics that I enjoy sharing the most.

And that's the difference between big talk and small talk. If you've heard me share in the last year or so, I've been talking about this idea a lot, big talk versus small talk and the role that it plays in the educational community. Specifically, I've talked about how we as educators have to make a shift from small talk, uh whether it be in professional learning experiences, at a conference, in the teacher's lounge.

Small talk isn't going to get us anywhere. But big talk, that's where we really have an opportunity to have conversations and say the things that are going to move the needle, that are going to create an impact. It's one of the reasons that I created the big talk community. You haven't heard of that community. It's a space for educators who uh serve and support gifted learners in any capacity. It's a space for us to have big talk, right? For us to engage in action-oriented work.

where we are really talking about, hey, what are the changes that need to be happening and how can we be a part of that? So Before we kind of dive into today's topic, I wanted to invite you, if you want to be a part of the Big Talk community or you'd just like to learn more about, hey, what is that? What does that look like? I will share that information in the show notes. So you go check that out. And if you have any questions, feel free to let me know.

Okay, but today we're gonna kind of shift gears a little bit and not talk about big talk from the teacher's perspective. Instead, we're gonna talk about how can we make big talk A part of our classroom environment. So today we're going to be exploring big top deep thinking, moving beyond surface-level conversations in the classroom. You know, I think this is so important because I I think about myself and how much I enjoy big talk versus um how I feel about small talk.

I oftentimes share that I can be a little bit introverted. I kind of have one of those weird personalities where sometimes I'm really introverted. Other times if I'm talking about something I'm really interested in or I feel like I have something to share about, I can seem very extroverted.

So that being said, when I really pay attention to when I'm deeply invested or when I'm really engaged and want to be a part in the c of the conversation, most of the time for me, that is when big talk is happening. That is not the case for everyone. I know a lot of my extroverted friends and they are a hundred percent fine with small talk. Like just give me the opportunity to have a conversation and I'm all in. But I do think there are those of us who really just

Maybe small talk makes us a little bit uncomfortable, but big talk, like we feel like that's where it's at. And I can't help but think if there are adults like that, there are probably learners like that. And I would imagine that there are a lot of our gifted learners that are like that, that are really hungry for that big talk and that opportunity to go deeper. And unfortunately, I think sometimes we stay on the surface. And they're not given that opportunity. So

I've been sharing a little bit on Instagram about Big Talk, the impact that it could have. And today, on today's episode, we're just gonna take it a little bit further. We're gonna take that idea deeper and we're gonna explore not just what Big Talk is. but how it transforms classroom culture and engagement. Now, I want to be really honest here. I think that oftentimes with those two topics, classroom, culture, and engagement.

we tend to say things to educators like, you know, well, you just have to have a positive classroom culture. Or you just have to engage them. Well, it's not really that easy. There are things that have to happen. There are very specific ways that we can make those things happen. But one, it takes time.

And two, it takes not just being told what they should be doing and why they should be doing it, but we also have to talk about the how. And that's exactly what we're going to explore on today's episode. We're going to talk about what big talk is. We're gonna talk about why it matters so much. But most importantly, I'm going to give you guys some really practical strategies that you can implement tomorrow so that you have the how as well.

And I think when we get that how as educators and we're able to put some of those things in process Then we can start seeing our classroom culture change. We can start seeing some of our learners be more engaged, but it's important to know. These things take time, they take consistency, they take a willingness to have that back and forth with your learners of what's working, what's not working, really paying attention to the culture and the engagement.

to know what's going on and what's not going on so that you can adjust what needs to be adjusted. Okay, so let's talk about why surface level isn't enough. First of all, surface level conversation is always gonna be there. Probably not going anywhere. A lot of people just engage in it by habit.

Um, but but when you think about small talk, it's things like how's your day? It's like those one word answers like it's fine, how's yours? All right. Um, or what's for lunch. They're like safe, easy, and they're quick. But the problem is for our gifted learners, those don't really offer much. Gifted kids often crave nuance, right? They want to like.

Puzzle, they want to explore contradictions or debate. And when we stay at that surface level, we miss out on the chance to tap into that natural curiosity. And I would say to go back to a a word that I used on the last episode, we miss out on the opportunity to cultivate. That curiosity that is there, right? But sometimes it's hiding under the surface. And if we never take the time to dig beneath the surface,

If we never give that an opportunity to kind of bubble up from the surface, we are missing an opportunity. We're also not. Playing to that hunger for depth that so many of them have. Gosh, I've talked about depth more than I think I ever have in my entire career over the last few months. And it's just because I see such A need for us to shift away from this conversation of doing something different for our learners and instead really lean into this idea of doing something deeper for them.

So when we think about what surface level conversation is, oftentimes it's one word answers. Oftentimes it's just those things that you don't really have to think about. You just respond, right? It's just the uh robotic things that we do. And I think we sometimes fall into that in the classroom without even realizing. So one of the challenges that I wanted to give to you would be tomorrow or the day after listening to this podcast.

Just kind of keep a tally in your classroom of the conversations that are happening. I know you're not going to hear every conversation, but the conversations you do hear, just kind of make a t-chart of small talk, big talk. And tally up what you would consider small talk and what you would consider big talk. And we're gonna talk about the difference in just a little bit. So we've kind of talked about what small talk is. Let's consider what big talk adds, what it brings to the table.

Um, big talk is about asking questions that don't just have one right answer. You know, we talk about this a lot in a lot of different ways when it comes to education. We talk about open and closed questions. I've had teachers who tell me they talk about thick and thin questions. all of those in some way, shape, or form get us to this idea of big

talk. I feel like big talk though starts it should be a little more natural than just, hey, let's put our questions into a category. You want big talk to become part of the culture. Like it's just what happens when the learning begins.

And when our learners become comfortable with big talk over small talk, I think there's some really cool stuff that can start to happen because Questions. That spark curiosity and honestly that maybe even spark a little bit of discomfort, like, ugh, I'm not sure to how to answer that question.

Or I'm not, there's not a right answer to that, right? When that starts to be the case, I think our learners start being stretched, right? They start having to think a little bit deeper of what it is that we're asking. And so here's the key. Big talk is not just academic. It's relational, right? It's about, hey, let's have this conversation for something more than just can you get the right answer on this test?

And we all know, look, I know I get tired of hearing it too, but it's not it's not wrong, right? Relationships have a big impact in the flash. They they do change things. They do help create a culture. There's a lot of other things that have to be in place too, but it does build um big talk builds trust and belonging and it stretches their thinking, like I talked about earlier.

When when a learner hears a peer explain something like I think fairness isn't about everyone getting the same, but it's about everyone getting what they need. They're not just learning about fairness, right? They're practicing multiple perspectives. Um, if you, if you depth and complexity icons, like multiple perspectives is one of my favorites.

And this is what this is. This is them getting to hear, oh man, we might have different perspectives on this. We might think differently, but we can still engage in this dialogue. And so I think we as educators have a very specific role when it comes to big talk. And it's important that we think that out. Our role in shaping depth matters.

It sets the tone. If we model curiosity and we admit when we don't have all of the answers, when we're willing to say, like, I'm not really sure. Like, is there anybody who has experienced this or is there anybody who has thoughts about this? um, our learners start to feel safe doing the same. And for our gifted learners, that really matters because so many of them

don't feel safe in that big talk. They feel safe in the small talk because it's it's safe, right? Because it's a place where they can just know, okay, I'm either gonna get the answer right or I'm not. Or I'm gonna respond to this and we're gonna move on. Big talk requires uh I think a few things. It requires time, right? It requires a depth of thinking.

And it requires them to have that skill of being able to have conversation and to be able to naturally move from small talk and to big talk in a way that makes sense and that doesn't feel weird. So one of the things that I think we as teachers can do to me to encourage big talk in the classroom is to ask follow-up questions, right? To say things like, hey, tell me more about that or what why do you think that?

I think the only reason or one of the only reasons I should say, maybe not the only reason, but but a big reason that we don't typically do that is because of time. Like I don't have time to ask every kid to tell me more, or why do you think that? Well That's why the art of teaching is so important. You gotta know when it's appropriate to ask which kid that to tell you more or or to explain their thinking.

And the more you do that, the more they're building those muscles of being able to think from that place of metacognition, right? To think about their own thinking. And at first it's gonna be awkward. When you engage in big talk for the first time, it can be a little bit weird. I know that even in professional learning settings, somewhere where I've been, I am so comfortable in big talk. Sometimes I can jump to it too fast.

And I can always tell when everybody at the table is like, Too far. Like you just went way too far, way too fast. And I I think a lot of our gifted learners are like that too. While I think they can get comfortable in small talk, I think oftentimes they tend to jump to big talk really quickly. And that can make people who aren't comfortable with those types of con um conversations a little bit

um standoffish or it makes them uncomfortable. And so I think a real skill that we can teach our gifted learners who who really lean into that big talk is how to do that with follow-up questions. How to kind of build this. I'm giving you a spoiler alert. We're about to talk about something like this very soon, but giving them a way to do this so that it's a more natural progression, I guess I would say.

The other thing we as educators can do is we kind of create the space, right? Big talk does not mean chaotic debate. It does not mean that we always disagree about something. It just means kind of structured exploration where everybody's voice can be heard.

Small talk are just kind of those insignificant, not really matter, day-to-day conversations that are not going to result in one thing sticking with them. And it's not going to result in two, um any any type of action being taken or anything being impacted or changed.

And so that's why there's a place for both, right? There's oftentimes a place for small talk, but if we only engage in small talk and we never make big talk a part of the learning space, we're missing a big opportunity. So let me just review, um the kind of role that I think teachers can take when it comes to making Big Talk a priority in their class.

One, we set the tone, right? Modeling curiosity and admitting when we don't have all the answers because then our learners are willing to do the same. We ask follow-up questions, always saying things like tell me more, why do you think that? Can you explain your thinking? Such a great way to model that. And you're giving your kids like, oh, that's a great way to keep a conversation going without having to get into that mundane small talk that honestly make a lot of us uncomfortable.

And number three, we create the space. Big talk again does not mean that it has to be a debate. It just means that every voice can be heard and it gives us an opportunity to hear from those different perspectives.

So how do I make Big Talk a priority in my classroom? That's what I would be asking if I were you. What does this actually look like? And so I want to share some practical strategies that you can try. Some of these you may have heard of them, some of them may be new to you. So we're going to start with this idea of layered questions or what some people I like to call conversation ladder. This is a really great way to help gifted learners understand how to get to big talk. Without making it.

Right. This is something I have to remind myself of all the time. Like don't go there too fast. understand that there is a progression here and we can get to that big talk if I'm patient and I know how to build this conversation ladder. So the idea is simple. You start with a really easy, approachable question. And then you add layers of complexity so that the person that you're speaking with can climb deeper into the conversation.

So again, let me say it one more time. You start with a really easy, approachable question, and then you add layers of complexity. This makes sense, right? You can see that in your head, a ladder. For example, you might start with like, what's a rule that you would change in school? That's fairly simple. Like, oh, I would change this rule that we can't eat in class. Once they've answered that, you might follow up with something a little deeper, like

What intended consequences might that create? So now I'm not only having to think about the rule, that's pretty easy question, but now I'm having to think about the consequences that might happen if that rule actually changed. Then you could take it even further. How might that impact learners who learn differently than you do? Ugh, now I'm having to think from multiple perspectives.

Right. Now I'm not just thinking about myself. So you can see this progression from a fairly straightforward question to it just getting deeper and deeper. And your brain is having to work harder and harder to answer those questions. So do you see how that works? Each question is a new rung on the ladder.

So I like the idea of just having um an image of a ladder and letting your learners kind of identify the questions they want to have before they have a conversation. That's a great way to scaffold that. Um

In fact, at the end of our time today, I'm gonna share with you where you can get a resource that I've created um that is just that, right? It's an example of what this looks like. It has a ladder on it and it's a place for your learners to be able to create um that questioning strategy and to engage in that to practice what this looks like. Okay, so first first practical idea, layered questions or conversation ladders. Um really great way to make that happen.

The second one, and you could probably see this coming, Socratic seminars, right? These structures get Socratic Seminar gives our learners a safe space or a safe framework. for having real dialogue. Gosh, I very rarely talk to teachers who have done Socratic seminars in their classrooms.

and they say like, Oh, it just didn't go like I thought it would or it just wasn't what I thought it would be. Usually when I talk to educators who make Socratic seminars uh um, a priority and they do them often and they've given their learners the opportunity to really learn what this looks like. They can't shut up about it. Right. They just want to talk about it. They want to have big talk about Socratic seminars.

Because of the impact that it has on their learners. And oftentimes what they say to me is, I just saw things and I heard things from my learners that I would have never heard had I not made that a priority. So if you're thinking to yourself, okay, that's great. I don't really know what a Socratic seminar is, or I've heard of those, but I don't know how to make that happen. Listen, on episode eighty-three, you definitely want to go back and listen to that. I had Julie Lee. Uh she is an educator.

handle on Instagram is the Socratic Sister. And so if you want to know exactly how to do this and some practical strategies, one, she's a great person to follow. And two, you definitely want to go back to listen to episode 83. Because we talked about exactly this. How do you make Socratic Seminar a priority? What are some of the benefits? What are some of the practical things that you can put in place so that your learners can learn to do them in a really practical way?

So, um, just so you kind of know how it works a little bit, you you could give them a statement, right? Uh technology does more more harm than good. And then the learners kind of in this space. have conversation about that. And there are lots of variations on Socratic seminars, lots of different ways you can do it. I've heard of the fishbowl Socratic Seminar, um kind of the straightforward

typical Socratic seminar. There's just lots of different ways you can make it happen. So whether you Google this to learn how to do it, you can go watch some videos on YouTube of it actually happening in classrooms or you listen to episode eighty three. Um There's there is no shortage of resources out there on this idea and how to base. Finally, the last idea that I want to share with you is silent big talk. You're like, wait, isn't talking uh bit silent big talk.

This is one of my favorite approaches for kids who are quieter. Are they just need more time to process? I was actually with some educators yesterday and one of the teachers that I was with, gosh, she shared such good ideas and such a deed. um perspective of the things that we were talking about. But I saw her in between everything that we were talking about. You know, we would kind of move between these ideas and I you could literally see her.

processing. But because she was processing, there were moments throughout that day that she was quieter than everyone else. In fact, at the beginning of the day, I was like, Oh, is she in or is she out? Like I can't tell if she's with me or not. And um Then there came this moment where she explained to me that she was a processor.

And it made so much sense because I could literally see, maybe not literally. I just turned into my teenage daughter who uses uses literally wrong all the time. Maybe not literally, but I could see the wheels turning, right? I was like, oh, she's processing right now. And so big talk doesn't mean they have to be talking out loud right away. You can start things off with like letting them write their thoughts down on a sticky note or using a digital tool like Padlet or maybe Fig Jam.

That way, everyone gets their ideas down first, and then they can build toward that discussion once they're ready to share. That makes a lot of sense, right? I think for those of us that are the opposite I unfortunately don't always process before I talk. And because that's the case for me, I feel like silent big talk could be really a valuable experience for me. Like, hey, let me kind of think this through before I say it out loud.

So three different ways that you can start making big talk a priority in your classroom literally tomorrow, you could uh use conversation ladder. something like Socratic seminars or even silent big talk. So three really practical things you could use right away in your classroom to make this happen.

Okay, so because I've promised you new ideas, here are some fresh big talk questions that you might not have seen or that I haven't shared before. Um just some new things to think about. These are examples. These are not things you could have to use. These are not things you could have to use. That sentence came out wrong. These are not things you have to use. These are just examples of big talk or some questions that could get the wheels turning towards big talk in your classroom.

Uh, would the world be better if everyone thought the same way? Uh that's a really good question. Um does power can power reveal character? If you If you could remove one law, what would it be and why? Right? These are some really deep questions. Is it ever possible to know something with 100% certainty? Those are great questions, great things we can consider, and they're really good ways for our kids to get to that big talk plan. One more, which is more powerful? Imagination or knowledge?

Um, you can see these are just really deep questions. And again, this is not I'm not saying ask these exact questions in your classroom. I'm giving you examples of questions you might consider or things you could um uh just examples of how to get big talk kind of started in your classroom. So Here's the thing, big talk does not have to take 45 minutes. Even five minutes at the start of class can shift the energy, it can spark new ideas, and it can remind your learners that their voices matter.

So this week I just want to challenge you. Bring one big talk question to your class. How can you encourage big talk through starting with a question? Now, I want to be clear, I don't think big talk always has to start with a question. The goal is that you use questions to make this start happening in your classroom. And then you don't have to continue to do that. Big talk will start to be more authentic. It'll start to be more natural.

And I promise you, if you, I I think I promise you, if you do a uh, like I asked you earlier to do a T chart of small talk and big talk in your classroom now, you start making this a priority by doing things like conversation ladders and Socratic seminars. And maybe six weeks, nine weeks down the line, do another T chart. My hope would be, it may not grow a ton, but my hope would be those tallies would start to shift, that you would start to see more tallies. in the big talk um

The big talk column than you saw when you first started this. So I would say just give that a whirl, right? And just see what happens if you start making these things a priority. See how your learners respond and notice the depth that emerges when you create space for curiosity. So look, before we wrap up, I want to invite you to continue this conversation with me because I I I would love to engage in some big talk about big talk.

So inside my free community, a meaningful mess. I'll link to that in the show notes if you want to be a part of it. You can also learn more about it on my website, andymacnair.com. But we're going to be talking about this episode. We're going to be sharing ideas and trading strategies that actually work in the classroom.

You'll also find some exclusive resources there that you're not gonna get anywhere else, right? I'm not sharing those things on Instagram. They're only for my community members. One of those things is that conversation ladder. Um

piece that I talked to you about. It's a really cool resource that you could use immediately. So that's going to be dropping in the community this evening. So you'll want to make sure you're there and can pick that up and maybe use it in your classroom this week, next week. very, very soon. But I'm creating those things to help you put these strategies into action right away. And we're gonna start doing more of that where we talk about the this week's podcast episode.

in the community so that we can carry this conversation on and really start to put some of these things in practice. So if you're not already a part of the community, come join us. It's free, it's fun, and it's a great way to continue learning together. Also, I'd love to hear what's your favorite big talk question to use with your learners. Send me a message, share it on social media, just be sure to tag me so that I'll see it. Um, as always, thank you so much for listening.

Thanks so much for joining me today on a meaningful mess. I hope you found something to spark ideas, encourage reflection, or simply remind you that imperfection is where growth begins. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if today's conversation resonated, I'd love for you to share it or leave a review. It really does make such a difference.

And hey, let's stay connected. You can find more thoughts behind the scenes and resources over on my Instagram at a underscore meaningful underscore mess. Until next time, here's to finding meaning in the mess and joy in the journey.