Juju Bae 1:11
Hello, y'all and welcome. to another episode of a little Juju podcast. So today base. We're gonna be talking about a lot of things spirituality, of course, Blackout, spirituality, Disability Justice, and also just being a baddie, and I thought that it was very important to invite the special guests of jade T. Perry. I met you Jade, in the club on clubhouse. And I was facilitating a room when I remember this. This was last year maybe I was doing a room on like, the church and I don't remember what I was talking about, but he got really deep actually. It was like people were coming up and sharing their stories. I got so deep and you got up on stage on the clubhouse stage, and you just like dropped a gem and then dipped and went back in the audience. And on the stage and like the dropped on his like good wisdom and then just was like alright, job audience. And so I think Dana Lynn knuckles we love the people's Oracle hair was on stage with me. She's like, Oh, that's Jay. Y'all should know each other. Okay, and I think I've maybe reached out from Instagram then we follow each other and then that's how we connected but yes, the first time I heard you was in clubhouse wow. Oh, shout out to clubhouse I don't be on there no more but I was literally about
Jade T. Perry 2:53
to say that's meant to be because that was in the week. That I was on clubhouse and then I
Unknown Speaker 3:02
that wasn't meant to be it was meant to be so y'all JT Perry is a writer, speaker educator artists churchy, mystic and chronically ill baby she's a black queer, disabled fan practicing spiritual activism, cultural work and community curation. Let's give it a fortune to you. Already here, yes. I'm so excited. I already gave you a little introduction. But I like to always ask my guests. How do you identify yourself? How do you want to show up today on the show?
Jade T. Perry 3:31
Yes. Oh my goodness. One of the things that because we're in an audio format, people can't see the visual of how black queer disabled femme is spelled black, queer, disabled is all one word and then femme is another word. And I just think that that's important because it talks about all of the different ways that these identities intersect these identities dance with one another, and and how I experienced them in the world simultaneously. And so I think that's one thing that I love for the people to know. We're going to get all into this but they call me the churchy mystic churchy does not mean Christian and I know that we're going to get into all of that. So that's all I will say right now. But those are those are the big the big things and really, it is just such a joy. I have to say again, really, truly it's such a joy just to be here. And I'm grateful for what you do do to Bay and in really unpacking and letting folks know that we still out here we're out here and we're spiritualist of all different traditions, building on tradition. So I appreciate you.
Unknown Speaker 4:43
Yes, thank you. So speaking of our spirituality and traditions, sort of talk to us a little bit about what your spiritual background is or your religious background, like kind of how did you grow up and how did it morph into the churching mistake?
Jade T. Perry 4:58
Yes. Oh my goodness. So I grew up in a small and I'll be telling this story. It's one of my favorite stories. I grew up in a very small church in Philly. If I'm originally from Philly, right now, a the John's you know we love them.
Unknown Speaker 5:19
Billy Jones cousins.
Jade T. Perry 5:21
Yes. And so I grew up that in a very, very small church in the middle of an intersection I was across roads we know about the Crossroads is is such an important site of black spirituality is such an important icon. Of the roads of s fo dysphoric. Spirituality is the site of power. It's the site of choice is the site of all different kinds of spiritual energies and entities coming together at one time. And so I grew up in this small church about 60 people on a good day. Like on Easter on Easter Sunday. We had 60 people, you know, church when I went there was it was it was Pepto Bismol paint. I don't know who decided that. That was gonna be the exterior but it was Pepto Bismol pink and the inside was red have red carpets and red chair. So if you just imagine just hot energist A lot of Yes. Yeah, a lot of just heats hot spiritual energy in this space, and it was nondenominational church, but it was black. Pentecostal, and I'm using that also as a portmanteau, black Pentecostal as a reference to Dr. Ushant qualities work, where he talks about in his book Black Pentecostal breath, as black Pentecostalism as an imagining of otherwise worlds. Beyond any specific doctrine, beyond any specific set of beliefs, how do we imagine new worlds together spiritually? How do we make space for spirit and vastness? So these practices were happening you know, in this small little church, but of course, it was and I'm writing about this in the book and the tricky mystery book was that it was a double dipped experience because we got all of this beautiful amazing black ritual and and healing modalities and laying on of hands and all of these things with colonial rhetoric and theology, right. So it was a very double dip experience. And I'm unpacking some of that in the book. And so what's really interesting is that I left that you know, love that phase and went went, went through a period of searching in my teenage years, my late teenage years and in my you know, in college and especially in graduate school, I really started to formalize that search a little bit more and really begin to branch out and learn and understand how black faith and black religion just worked right? On my own for my own unit was flashing forward to about, let's say, 2015 or so, on my own, started learning about the black Buddhist tradition and really thinking about what is it mean to incorporate some of those principles and tenets in the way that I live for myself personally, and then began to really study in 2017, I co founded the mystic soul project with Teresa Mathias and run Mendoza. And at that time, the whole project was really looking at how do we understand the magic and the mysticism and the ritual, right, for me of black and indigenous healing and spiritual modalities, and for them, they were looking more across the Latinx diaspora and what that looks like. And so you know, I've had lots of amazing to put it mildly, do do this mildly. I've had lots of very interesting experiences in the world and in the life of spirit. And I have learned that it sometimes helps to not try to immediately make sense of it all just to let it arrive to you. Right. And so that's the churchy part and the mystic part is about that letting it arrive. So the mysticism, when we talk about mystics, we're talking about a tradition of folks who are trying to have an understanding of direct understanding of the Divine. However, they see that in themselves outside of themselves in the world around them. And so I think for me being a mystic and practice now in my, in the urban scape of Chicago is really figuring out how do I see the divine How do I see the ancestors, your raesha, the benevolent black churches spirits, all in in through the world around me in and also, you know, above me, so that's a little bit about my background and
Unknown Speaker:worldview. So much I mean, there's so many follow up to that I have in that. I'm curious, you know, for those of us who were raised in the church but also took this journey of exploring even beyond the church and what it means to connect with the divine. Something that people ask me all the time it's like I'm struggling with embracing the mysticism because of the church and I still value of the church. I still see some healing in the church, but also the church caused me a lot of pain and harm. Yeah, they're having difficulty kind of balancing the two and I'm curious how you did that. And what is your unlearning relearning journey? What does it look like for you and how did you How have you been doing it?
Jade T. Perry:Oh, that's such a deep question. Oh my gosh, how am I doing it day by day? Yes, what I find and I talk about this a lot. What I find is the blessing and the burden of having access to so much knowledge via social media via these different things is that we sometimes feel that we have to choose something really quick. Yes, right. And folks that come in my in my one on ones, especially with folks who have are leaving an Abrahamic religion. The comfort there's a little bit of dissonance because at one point, we, you know, you may have had the comfort of, well, I believe these things and it's giving me this certain amount of comfort. So you're moved from comfort into dissonance, right? Or you're moved from comfort into a little bit of of discomfort and figuring out, Oh, my God, what do I believe now? What I would say is, don't try to rush yourself to believe anything right now. Learn to sit with the discomfort and the dissonance. So you can get to know what is what does your voice sound like? What does your soul need when it is in those spaces of uncertainty when it is in those spaces where you may not be sure right? Where to go and what to do. It's funny, I've been reading if you asked me this on another day, I might have a different answer. Today I was reading. Well, a romance novel by Aqua kit and meze. You made up that Yes. Oh my gosh, I love them so much. You made a fool of death with your beauty and it's kind of talking about love. What does it mean to love after something traumatic has happened and I know that for my own life I'm also a survivor right of domestic violence and and I know what it feels like this is not what the book talks about to be clear. But the theme right I get this theme of what does it mean to love again, after trauma and how tender that is and how some days you feel like I'm out here, honey, I'm doing this thing and then sometimes you're like, I didn't get myself in this situation that I don't even know how to get out.
Unknown Speaker:Right? And I see
Jade T. Perry:a parallel actually in moving through different kinds of spiritual modalities. And especially after being hurt by institutionalized religion. Because I carried that hurt too, right? I carried that hurt. So from institutionalized religion, right, I'm black, I'm queer, and I'm disabled. Like let's just we know we know what those things right? And even though I went to a church that was it was a black church. It was you know, all these things. And these people were, were kind of like my family. At a certain point, we still had to really reckon through some hard times when it came to different identities. When I left that church, I went to another church that was just really, really not good for me. So I understand what that feels like to move through the institutional trauma and I want to call it what it is. Sometimes we say like, oh, church hurt and these things, but a lot of times it's trauma, right? And so how do we love again love the divine in us love the the connection that we have to Spirit love the divine outside of us, after experiencing trauma, I think is a worthy question. And I don't think you can answer it with your words per se. I think you answered with your living and your life and your miss you know, Miss steps and your your the night to get a journal it out.
Unknown Speaker:Right? All right.
Jade T. Perry:Out Yes. Like I think sometimes, because on social media, we only see the glossy versions. We think that other people aren't also having these moments of dissonance are these moments of reflection, or these highs or these lows? And I think it's so important for people that ask us these kinds of questions, you know, to know that your story is going to be your story, so don't compare it to anyone else. And know that you don't have to you know, you you will be able to love again, after after trauma. It just may not take the direct path that you think it's going to take but nothing in spirituality really does.
Unknown Speaker:At all. One of the I guess blessings of spirit doesn't have any direct way, in everything in every moment in every experience. That's so deep. You know, something I started that I share pretty often on the show. And just when I'm talking to folks is about how people like oh, how do you how do you Hey, you have such a great relationship to your ancestors and I'm like them motherfuckers be getting on my nerves. I have taken my altar down throughout this process of me, embracing them, learning from them, loving them. My Ultra down a good two times and didn't talk to him at all gave no offer important no libation had nothing to do with y'all. So the same thing that when people are questioning God no, I question my dad off. Yeah, yeah, I don't get it often. Their advice sometimes I'm like, now what what are you showing? I gave you the offer. Why are you not what's going on? Yeah. No, it's a process and a journey. And this you know, I never want to romanticize the journey of being a mystic because it's, it can be very difficult and hard. Even though we love it. It works.
Unknown Speaker:It is yes, yes. It's
Unknown Speaker:complex. Um, so how would you feel like your identity of churchy mystic interacts with your, your queerness and your gender? How does
Jade T. Perry:it show up? Yeah. I saw in the longer form book which guy willing and the creek don't rise it'll be out next year helped me Hey, man. Yes, yes, it's so it's really, really interesting. I find that one thing that I'm often saying in this theory, right of churchy mysticism is that it's not necessarily about being Christian and I had to really let go up years ago that this is years ago now but I had to let go of my Christian identity so I could really live into what it meant to be a churchy mistake. When we say the word churchy, right I've been doing. This has been a journey for me since 2015. I've literally been just gathering insight and input and learning how people use this word churchy, particularly on digital formats and through digital archiving, but also just through the ways that black folk speak right. Well, we know somebody's churchy. We're talking about a set of cultural realities, right? That may include and I have this in the book is like may include anything from the laying on of hands to just the specific red punch that you will get after like the taste memory, right?
Unknown Speaker:Yes. The green beans.
Jade T. Perry:Now, like the smell, when you open up, that hymnal that smell, the olfactory remembrance is. So when we talk about that word, and when I've seen this word used a lot in digital landscapes, we're talking about these kinds of cultural sensing experiences, and we're still talking about kind of an orientation and how we view the world right? I don't necessarily know that we're always talking about Christian or Christianity, which is an instance which is the institution right that we have as black people had to code our magic and mysticism, and under and through right to really establish these different things for ourselves. So it's really interesting because I think when I say oh, yes, I'm a churchy mystic. I'm talking about an ontological way of of being that is black right that is informed by in this particular specific, who do slash right this this very mixed methods kind of way of being. And so it's interesting though, because with that comes the highs, the beautiful things we remember the green beans, I'll just say, but also come some of those harder memories, right? And those memories of being ostracized and different things like that. Now I came out as queer and came out as always such complicated language for me because I was like, I'm just doing what I'm doing. But I write but but I think people let's say it this way, people read me as queer as I got older. And my adult of where people were that oh, this is an adult now and my adulthood years people began to read and oh, this is what's been this will go into it. And so I wouldn't say You know, I I went through a lot of what other folks went through the sentiments of like, oh, you know, we don't really do that. We don't get down with that, you know, quote, unquote, lifestyle. My mother, my mother is a minister and we still have our conversations and sometimes I just be like, Girl, not today. grabbed that today. Not today.
Unknown Speaker:Let me next.
Jade T. Perry:Read, you know, but what I will say honestly, Jujubee if I felt and we don't talk about this a lot is that I felt the most visceral estrus you know, the most viscerally ostracize when it came to being disabled. And when it came to, you know, people not understanding the narrative of an ad always say, the narrative of Jesus as a disabled ancestor, right. So when we think about even just that specific text when Jesus came back, you know, there was all when Jesus was reincarnated. You know, there was all kinds of holes and different things on his on his person to show you know, this is what I've been through. And, and, and that was even in a glorified body, by deity body, and, and yet And yet, I think sometimes within that tradition within Christian tradition, we find disability. As as, as problematic as inherently adequate as something to be preyed away. With gets very complicated when it comes to black folks, because of the fact that black folks are often being put in disabling circumstances. We are the ones who are working in the factories and that has has a toll on our body. We're the ones who are surviving and not saying the only ones but we have survived racialized trauma. Over and over and over from generation to generation to generation to generation and, and these things can change your body. These things can change how you move through the world. And so black folks and Disability Justice really go hand in hand, but we don't see that a lot of times in not just a Christian tradition, but in many black spiritual traditions where we don't honor the disabled understanding of the Divine as as it should be, you know, your honor, and all of its complexity and all of his beauty. So I think I felt the marginalization from being queer, you know, in church. Sure. Yes, I did. But, you know, my remembrance is of what it felt like for people to be like, let me pray over you and then like if you don't get up and perform wellness
Unknown Speaker:in this way,
Jade T. Perry:similar to if you don't perform straightness in this way. If you don't perform wellness, then now we have a whole spiritual story that we've we've crafted and that were given to you right, and you don't have to ingest that story. So for anyone who's disabled or chronically ill and listening to this, know that you don't have to ingest that story you can reflect and sit with what is the disabled divine within you, right? And how do you understand that and so same thing with queerness. Right Understanding like, what are the queer avatars of the Divine? If the Divine is as big as we say that they are, if there's a pantheon of spirits of egg bay of ancestors, right, then queerness is already an infinitely a part of that. So I think that be the journey of being a mystic. While it is complicated. It has been very healing for me, because I see myself in the divine and I see the divine in me as well through that path.
Unknown Speaker:The way doors today, yes. Can you define disabled for us and disability as an expert in the field
Jade T. Perry:Oh, my goodness, that's so hard. That's a hard question because who is a hard question because it's one of those things that everyone is going to have their own understanding their own definition. The reason why I use disabled honestly, is because through the lens of disability justice, which is a movement that you know, through 2005 Actually, you know what, I'm gonna give a little history because I'm a nerd. Do so the disability rights movement of the 1960s We appreciate that because it it helped to make sure that ABA laws were put in place right that could assist disabled and chronically ill folks, right however, the limitation of that movement was that it was mostly focusing on right the legal we want to have the legal rights. And also it was largely and overwhelmingly while there were people of color in this movement was largely an overwhelmingly white right the leaders of the movement and things of that nature. So 2005 comes to delta and it and really picks up steam in the 2010s were a group of black and brown and queer activists and organizers and artists. I think this is really important because the first thing that it started off with was art. And they these folks got together. And really, really made sure that there was an approach that talked about and these are disability justice principles, you can look them up on sin valid, but that talked about the leadership of those who are most oppressed to talk about the intersecting identities of what does it mean to be brown and disabled or black and disabled or queer and disabled? And what does it mean to not just say you can have rights but to uproot? Ableism? Yes, right. And so, through that movement, a lot of different amazing writing and poetry and art, things were birth. But I think that movement informed my understanding of being disabled because of the fact that every time I say I'm disabled I'm saying that there is a disabling agent. I'm disabled by something. I'm disabled by the fact that we live in capitalism. And so even when I get sick, I can only respire so much because we have to work and grind and moving and do but because of capitalism, I'm disabled by the fact that right? We we live in many times, folks, for black folks like we live in food deserts, right. And near railroads and near factory now I'm in Chicago, so living near factories and things that then get into our lungs and then cause disability, right? And so whenever I say I'm disabled, I'm really, whether other people get it or not, I don't care. I'm saying that I'm disabled by something, right? Not just something individual that's going on in my body, which is true and real and valid. But it's also the ways that these things these systems don't make space for my body to be comfortable to be prioritized or even to be in the space. So that's what I mean when I say, you know, I'm disabled.
Unknown Speaker:Right? So, really putting the focus on these disabling systems that impact really all of us, right? Yep. In a variety of different ways. Yet whether one identifies as disabled or not, like we are constantly being disabled, like you said, by capitalism, by anti blackness and racism by all the isms that exists. I thank you for sharing that. I think that's super important for us to know and carry with us and so how do you feel you touched on this a little bit? Like how disability justice can sort of sort of show up in our spiritual movements, or kind of what does it mean to have them intersect? Like how does the divine encompass disability or what could it look like in our everyday lives, and also being allies to disabled people in general within our spiritual movement specifically, in the spiritual movement specifically?
Jade T. Perry:Yes, two things I want to make very, very, very clear, is that and one of my favorite definitions of ableism is by to Lila to Lewis, Esquire, and it talks about ableism. Being inherently anti Black is inherently inherently anti black because of the fact that ableism tries to ensure a certain level of homogenous normative meaning making this the norm, productivity, behavior and excellence that black people always just transgress. Always, just by virtue of simply just being black and on these lands, right. And so, I don't know if it's so much of a call to incorporate disabled folks per se, then to realize the disabled folks always were in these traditions, and that when we dismantle our ableism, we actually are dismantling internalized anti blackness. Ways that you know, and so I think it's just really important to underscore that I also think it's really important to know that we, we can do this, we have this technology, right? A lot of times folks ask, you know, well, how do we then incorporate the data and at all and I work for people who have literally no starting point, I just kind of talk about especially folks who have some kind of churchy tradition. I always think about like, Well, what did people do when grandma wanted to go to special service? We made sure it didn't matter. She was getting suits. We didn't have to do a committee who's going to pick her up and who's gonna drop her off and who's gonna to bring her we didn't do that. We just made sure that the things happen.
Unknown Speaker:And things were together in place so that they can happen.
Jade T. Perry:You know what I'm saying? Even these traditions that come with like church nurses, like we know how to do this Yes, water, there's water there sheets. There's all of these things right? And really even thinking about that is so important. Even when we think about the ancestors, we all have disabled ancestors. How powerful would it be to think about what it means to actually venerate them? And see them in this larger understanding of what it meant to be black and spiritual and living on the lands that you're living on? Right? We have arratia that are specific to the two folks who are disabled right? Look out for right yeah, the folks who are disabled and so we have to, when we don't remember that, that's, that's that is ableism visa vie whiteness, that is actually coming into these traditions, right because it is whiteness, particularly in America. I know you have international listeners. But they don't where we at. But it is it is whiteness that has set up in the first place. This idea of this is what it means to be excellent. This is what it means to be our body even be able to navigate a space. This is what it means right? And so I think about what black folks did when when when we were disrupted by when our bodies literally and our spiritual practice of the ring shout which is a dance where folks come together they collect in a circle, right? It's kind of like shouting in church, but this is like the origin the the originating Oh gee, yeah, the OG of that. We were interrupted actually by a structure by pews. Right. Formation in Slack Magic by Yvonne chareau. were interrupted by Pew so we couldn't do the ring shot and what do we do? We just transgress the aisle we just left out of the Pew we just made a different kind of space. As a Sean Crowley was say Dr. Shannon Crowley was saying we made an otherwise world so if we can do it, then in our in our enslavement, we can do it now. Yeah, we know how to do it. And we've learned how to do it by being in community with disabled folks. And some of us do, too. I don't know who I'm talking to. But some of us it starts with admitted and acknowledging, right? That we're not as far from disablement as we might think we are. We're not as far from chronic illness, as we might think we are especially not in a pandemic. Okay, you know, especially not being the viral underclass. I forget who said that originally, but especially not in this moment. And so, we I believe it is a spiritual imperative to be able to understand the Divinity right that what what can we learn about the divine through the lives of disabled and chronically ill folks, how do we close this perceived gap? I've been saying these days today, folks who are believing the fanfiction that they're able bodied. Oh, that's what I've been saying these days. How do we close that? Gap? Right, and we understand that many of us are closer, and it may be scary, right? But that's why we have our ancestors to lean on. How did you do this? My ancestors, how did you get through this? I don't know. Right? Teach me. I don't know something right. So that I can move forward. So I know I probably didn't get way away from the question, but these are always things that come up when we start dining. Yeah, yeah.
Unknown Speaker:It gets deep. It's good. It's so deep. It's so it's so nuanced. It's so complex, and I really appreciate you like uplifting our disabled ancestors and really venerating and calling on them for their insights and their advices particularly because many of them had a lot less reef resources then we find ourselves having now yet they still like and yet they still and they still and they still and we're here today. So what a power to invoke call on listen to specifically our disabled ancestors what you'd like you said we all have, we probably have a disabled elder in our family or not elder within our own families that we still support and make it work when I'm around my elders. We always get okay while I'm on routes to the bathroom. Okay, so maybe I'll murder that's, you know, that's just what we do. So I also appreciate this by groundedness. And like we can't like look at the things that we already do. Like it's a part of our relationships with people that we care about. And it's no more no less than that. It already is. Um, thank you for that. And you and you mentioned some Orisha, too. I wanted to say I'm about to laugh from a lie. Yes. And by Balu IEA in the Lukumi tradition is another Orisha okay. Oh, say you just this is giving like part to go down a little bit of a different path. I wanted to also ask you about Tarot because I know that you read tarot and you explored decolonial Tarot. How would you how do you define that? And how did you How do you see the Tarot deck as something that can be decolonized or how do you use it for maybe like divination for liberation as then Elin Nichols was saying? Yes.
Jade T. Perry:Oh, such a juicy question. Okay. This is the first thing I have to explain to folks is that the Tarot is just a tool. So it's a tool like every other thing that we use to divine with dice, coins, shells, shells, handles smoke, you know, the cards are another tool that we can use, you know, to divine and to move through and understand what are some messages that are coming, you know, for us and many times through us for this moment in time. I fell in love with the Tarot after getting a reading and you know, I'm a Taurus sun and I'm a Sagittarius moon. And so my chart is mostly earthen fire and I got this reading and I was like it wasn't given or it was given it was giving too much.
Unknown Speaker:Oh, it was too much. You were
Jade T. Perry:Yep, it was giving actually too much and I just felt all the earth and fire just kind of just come up and I was like, I'm gonna do some research and I would just I would just see why would they say this to be on re expose this artery right this laundry and expose truly, and I started studying and it literally changed my life and really, it really changed my life. And I didn't know why. I just knew that the cards felt really familiar to me. I felt like it was more of a remembrance than a learning. You know, I study a lot. But it felt like I was calling something back to my remembrance and so I started working with the Tarot flashforward maybe two or three years out, and my grandmother gets gives me a call my paternal grandmother and she's like I seen what you've been posting, you know on these sites now you know, that can mean anything any because if ever you want to see my anyway, so I was already like, Okay, let me make sure I've got coffee for this conversation. And but I was so surprised because she said you know I also read the tarot. And my grandmother is the one who taught me Cecilia Weston and so now of course, those who who know my work know about the Cecilia Western Tarot Academy, but I did not know that when I started working tarot, right. It was actually a family secret. It was that it was suppressed because of the fact that, you know, you know, and I asked My grandmama so if you do all of these things, why do you just say, Oh, I'm Catholic. And she was like, Well, you know, that's just what we knew to be is Catholic. And, you know, Mike, just like my kids don't really like me talking about those different things and capacities. But you know, how black who believe that it skips a generation. Yeah, it'd be the next one. And they go, Well, your mind might be you might be you right. So really interesting how right this was my great great grandmother, Cecilia Western who practiced my Nana didn't practice, but then my grandmother did and then our kids don't really, but then I do right. So we have these echoes and these resonances that that they do come back. And so when I am working with the cards, I do feel a connection with my ancestors who worked with the cards just in the way of facilitating and learning what it means but that's not all. You know, Mother, Cecilia Weston does. She did all kinds of healing work and laying on of hands and root work and all of that. I just am a card girl. I love divination. And so it's just so me It's so good to me. When we talk about how do we decolonize it's a very it's very tricky, because when we think about the cards, tarot cards that at the very least, they were not always within black folk healing methodologies, but they cost money. Right? They costed money. They were not always accessible for folks, and so you know, when people are like, I want to get to these cards in order to touch into my ancestors. I always say there's other there's other ways actually to connect with your ancestors. You don't need a deck of cards to be able to connect with your ancestors. And I want to be super clear about that for the people who are listening the channel started off it's very mysterious, very mysterious kind of circumstances but started off as as a game right in in to 18th century Italy and we move through these cards and they came through to the Renaissance and they were updated through the Order of the Golden Dawn and through pixies myth, which I think you have a whole episodes. Pamela Coleman Smith. What's important to know about Pamela Coleman Smith is that they also had a background in like Catholicism as well. So a lot of the cards that you see in the Rider Waite Smith deck including the devil, including the lovers, including the ace of cups have very Catholic visuals. Yeah, like, like angels and communion cups and
all these things right. And so I think that what is really for me, as someone who's always playing with that and transgressing Christian ideology, I think it's very juicy. Like I just think it's so juicy. So this flow, kind of flipped those things on their head and really dig into how did we get this deck and these archetypes I also think it's important to understand that within Afro diasporic religions at their base, there's not so much of an understanding of like, ooh, the devil is a bad character. I read a lot of folklore. Black folklore is my favorite. I was raised on it because my parents are into that. Yes. And we hear the stories about the devil more as like you could kind of reason with the devil a little bit, a little bit you may have the wheel and deal and finesse and all those things right. And so I think it's just also adds a colorful understanding of how you read the cards. Where does it become decolonial if the tool itself is steeped in colonialism, you have to rework the tool, right? And so all these amazing artists are coming up now Courtney Alexander does to honest you know, just really thinking about the black, queer, terrible, all of these different poodle Terrier, who do terrible these decorators that are doing the work of of flipping these things on their head and doing this kind of decolonial work. What I encourage folks to do in Sicilian Western Tarot Academy is actually to broaden out from the deck, right? So the Tarot deck specific is only in that first cohort. But when we get to the third cohort, it's really how do we build decolonial spirit theory? So how do we understand how Spirit works? Outside of the lens of institutionalization? As we build the colonial spirit theory, we think about other spirit theorists right of the past folks like Gloria Ansel dua, folks like Louisa Tesh folks, right that really teach us a little something about the divine. And we get to understand that we get to add in to these traditions. And that's where it becomes decolonial our adding into the tradition as we decolonize ourselves because that's really the only thing that we can decolonize that we have we got to be real about it okay. As we decolonize ourselves, and we understand the world that colonialization has played in black diasporic traditions, as we question it, as we understand it, as we you know, work our way around, we become decolonial spirit theorists then can add and built on to the tradition. So my work is really helpful, hopefully, to empower folks to also add to this tradition right of the colonial spirit theory, so that we can understand what are the ways that we have created things for our liberation I also loved and Linda also talks about divination for liberation. So how do we re if the tool has limitations? How do we rework the tool if the book has limitations? How do we rework you know the book and then when is the point where we say actually, we've evolved even beyond? Right? Can you imagine like, I don't think the Tarot is going anywhere, anytime soon. But what would the next evolution of that look like is what something I'm always interested in as just a decolonial spirit theory?
Unknown Speaker:Yeah, and you know, as we like you said decolonize ourselves because we can't really be colonized. We can but the tool but it has limitations right? You know, we are able to interpret the cards in a very specific and or in a different way than maybe we were taught or from someone who told us because I don't believe in this particular idea or thing. When I see bla bla swords I'm not a taro girl, so don't but when I see something here, but I'm interpreting it in a different way because I've done some work to not see it as something or the devil as some limiting or something evil or the tower means something bad is about to happen to me. But like what, how can we be expansive with with the tools that we read and I think that's so important because my old grandfather used to say this all the time, divination a wrong, but you can be wrong, and you would have said that but you were all so now I'm gonna share that. Because of whatever stuff that we come with when we are interpreting these tools. It's just super important. Something I think about a lot too.
Unknown Speaker:Hi, sorry. This is so amazing. Um, but we just want to be respectful of your time. Because it is it is almost too. So I was thinking Juju from the last questions. I do think that like, just speaking about the state of accessibility within spiritual spaces, and how we can be more thoughtful of disabled members of just the community, the black community at large. And then I think you can close out and ask Jay to speak about their work.
Unknown Speaker:Okay. I kind of feel like they might have answered that, but maybe not. Um, yeah. Let me see. I'm looking at the notes.
Jade T. Perry:I feel like that it wasn't a do this. Or don't do that. But
Unknown Speaker:yeah, okay. We can speak to it again. Or we can close out with something actually around the the arrow
Unknown Speaker:Yeah, we can we if you if you think it was already answered, then we can close out with something around the Giro. Yeah. You just okay. Actually, I got unity where you can find your work. Okay. Cool. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker:Thank you. Okay, Jay. So as we wrap up, I want to thank you just so much for all that you share today. Absolutely. Do you have a message for us? Is there something on your on your spirit that you want to say that's been on your heart that you wanted to talk about in this interview and we didn't get a chance to and it's okay, if not, but I like to leave the space open for you to share anything else that you may want to or to take away?
Jade T. Perry:Yeah. I want to underscore something I said at the beginning. So folks who may be in this process, who are you know, just trying to find their way. I want to make sure that you know that you can take your time and that there is no rush spirit is literally eternal. So there's no rush for you to move in or out of a space. And it's important for for us to really be mindful of our own pace as we just tried to figure out what does it mean to be connected intimately to spirit? Another thing that I would encourage folks to do you know, we're in the age of what I call social media, spirituality and and blessings and it also has its limitations. I would just encourage folks to, to study to look up who are the spiritualists that that are speaking to you about things, what informs them who are their teachers? Who are the folks that they listen to? What are the communities that they are accountable to so that you know who it is that best aligned for you to work with? Right? So it's really important to allow your soul consciousness your sacred self, the part of you that is wise that is sage, that is the vibe to both lead you in this process, but also that you know that you can always ask more questions, ask follow up questions, so that you are aligned, you know, working with spiritualists that are actually aligned with the thing that you are needing at this particular point in time. So that's what I would encourage folks to do that they don't have to rush that you can take your time, and that you can ask questions, and that you should get answers. I don't care if you're talking to a pastor a priest above allow or a reader a diviner and a mom. Whatever the case may be, you should be able to know who are their teachers? Yes. What is their mission? Who are they accountable to? And so don't feel afraid to ask to ask those questions. I think that's the main thing that I really, the practitioner in me, always has that to say.
Unknown Speaker:Yes. Oh, amen. so, so important. Okay. So thank you so much for this interview. Jay, please tell us how to find you. What you offer how we can work with you how we can give you coins, let us let the people know how we let the
Jade T. Perry:people know Okay, perfect. So you can find me most often. There's first let me just give you the website, just my name Jade t perry.com. You can find me on Patreon which I structure Patreon as an online library so folks can learn with me in a hybrid kind of form of ways through essays through videos and through monthly live gatherings. Called Wednesday night study, which jujube a was a guest at one of our studies
Unknown Speaker:and I'm a patron y'all Perry,
Jade T. Perry:Perry it and so that's where folks can find me for some of the programs. There we are right now in the process of taking interest forms and applications for the Cecilia Western Tarot Academy. So like to learn Tarot with me or if you are a practitioner or creative and you want to be in a container with other practitioners and creators. Cecilia Weston might be the thing for you, honey, I'm on social media of course mostly on Instagram at JT Perry I'm also on Twitter at Jade t p or JT Perry chat. I don't remember I don't be on Twitter that much on my Instagram girl. And most of the other things ways to work with me ways to book readings with me ways to find me you can buy all of that on the website at JT perry.com.
Unknown Speaker:Yes, thank you so much. This will all be in the show notes of course. Jay thank you so so so so so so much for me, you know, but also just thank you for you. Not just what you produce, but just being you you are so appreciate it and your light really shines and impacts so many people and I'm one of those people so I really really honor the divine that is in you. And I'm just wishing you blessings for all the things that you have all the things that you need. So thank you
Jade T. Perry:everything that you do today and affiliates. So mutual is so mutual. I hope you get all of your flowers while you are here because you are doing the work for the people I couldn't do it and that's why you're and that's why you're here. You know, it takes all of us it does it take all of us to really to really understand and know and so for the listeners, you just find your space and you just find your lane and know that you're gonna you're gonna be okay,
Unknown Speaker:you're gonna be okay yes, thank you so much. Bye.
Unknown Speaker:Yeah oh so amazing. Oh, okay.
Unknown Speaker:Disabled. I'll be thinking about that. main points were made. I appreciate everything that y'all said. Very, very important. There's a lot to think about.
Jade T. Perry:Thank you. Oh, glad. Yes, I had a blast. I had a blast.