We have a very, very special podcast today because we have actually partnered with Laura Cruise, who is the dream transition mentor. So we have a really great conversation for you today where myself and Laura are going to talk about all of the different aspects of owning and running your own organization, but also some of the different aspects of what it's like to support each other and what's really helped us to become successful throughout our roles.
Without further Ado, grab a cup of kickback and have a little listen. We should just crack on. I guess we should. This is weird. We're doing a dual episode with me, Laura Cruise and me, Zoe Holland. I've never done this before. We're actually in the same room recording and trying to get the laptop to pick up both of our voices. Oh, yeah. This is the second laptop as well. Clearly, I'm very loud.
It likes my voice. Yeah. And I'm quite timid because it wasn't picking mine up at all, which is not how I think any of my clients would describe me. Definitely not. No. So weird. So what's interesting about this is we are going to put this out both on the Audio Mine podcast and also on the Zing Learning podcast. Yeah, for me, definitely. This is the first time I've done a Jewel podcast. But you and I have known each other for I want to say is it almost two years. Almost two years. That's so mad.
So we got introduced by a good friend of ours, Jim Farron, who big shout out to him because he's incredible. And he just said, you two are going to get on like a house on fire. You've both set up your businesses at a similar time. Eg during Covet, who does that? And he was right. He was right because it's such a weird situation for us. So we just started getting on really well, virtually, obviously, because Covet and then we met up probably after about a year maybe, or whenever.
It was definitely hot where we met up. I think it was about this time last year. We met up in Vistas and we met. We drove and met and had lunch. Yeah. Which is really nice. It was the first time we'd actually seen it to the face to face. Where are you going again? To meet some birds that you've met online. I think people thought we were a bit mad. And I was saying, who is saying this to the other day? I can't remember.
But I was saying that every time I felt like giving up in that first year, I'd call you like you were the person that I'd be like, oh, I'm finding this really difficult. Like I'm not making any money. Everything is really hard. And you would talk me around and remind me of why I was doing this and that's it. I was explaining to them why we were coming away and who you were and how I things like that because people just find it really odd that up until that time we never met.
And actually this is what the third time we're in an Airbnb random. We met through our mutual friend Jim. And I remember when we had our first call, he basically said that you were going to go out on your own and he felt that we would get on really well. And I remember I just got married.
So it was two days after I got married that we did our first call and it was literally just as I had that weird thing where I went out on my own, but I was kind of furloughed and it was the pandemic and it was really strange and bizarre. So I consider that I didn't really go out until the August. I kind of feel like we're really on a part in terms of our kind of duration of the business. Does that make sense? Yeah, we're really kind of in tune with starting out.
So we started just having chats, didn't we, about stuff and business. And I was cheating you up when you're a bit fed up and vice versa. And then you did my program with me. Yes. Follow your dreams. Laura Cruise coaching big shout out to follow because that was brilliant. That helped me so much. And actually you're my coach as well now. So you're my professional coach. And we've also agreed to be each of us accountability buddies with business strategies and stuff like that.
So it's just evolved so much. But I don't know if you remember right at the start when we were having those first discussions, the sort of things that we were talking about were stuff we had no clue about. And now it's stuff we know just because it's all trial and error and things like that. And I think by this point I was getting rid of my first business adviser because they were useless. And then I managed to get another one that was amazing.
And it was through this amazing free enterprising for London. I just remember just having no clue about anything at all, like not a clue. And I was saying to someone the other day, if I'd have known half of what I know now, I wouldn't have set the business up. Really? Yeah, because I didn't know that. Yeah. It was so much bigger than I realized. I've just learned so much.
If I'd have really thought about it, if I'd have really gone really methodical and had a strategy before I set the business up and this and the other you mean if you'd had like a method to follow, like I've got maybe you might have had someone to help me. But I think because I kind of just was so fed up with working full time and just not feeling like I was making a difference at all. And then I was just like, what am I doing. And also the freedom thing was a massive part.
You mean the forest freedom flow, fulfillment and fun? Yes, exactly correct. This is how we talk to each other, by the way, all the time. Yeah, no, I did. And I think I talk to you about this when we first met and especially when you were trying to help me find my purpose and all of those sorts of things, and especially more recently in the coaching wherein I'm trying to understand where my vision is in business. And ultimately, that freedom thing comes up so many times.
So for me, it was really important. But if I'd have known it was going to take me as long as it did to make some money, if I'd have known that, I would have to deal with rejection a lot more than I realized, I might not have done it. I don't regret it. But I think you need to be a little bit prepared to do this. But you also need to feel it out. There's so many people out there saying, oh, this is going to happen with your business and this and this.
And ultimately it's just going to be whatever direction you go in. It's a very personalized thing. I think that's so interesting because from the outside, we'll explain why we're together in a minute. But from the outside, when we're talking through your numbers and your success, I think you have been successful really quickly. And remember that most businesses don't turn profit for three years. They just don't.
I know we're talking mainly bricks and mortar businesses, and obviously our businesses don't have those expenses associated with bricks and mortar. But most businesses don't turn a profit for three years. And I think your growth has been fantastic. Yeah, well, we've just been looking at the numbers, haven't we? It's 140% year on year, which I just went incredible. And you're so right. But you know me and anyone that does know me will know I'm exceptionally impatient.
So for me, taking six months to make any real money was extremely long for me. Well, yeah. Well, bloody good job. You did make some money. Otherwise, would you have given up? No, I wouldn't have given up. No. I think it's really interesting because I was talking to somebody, I can't remember who it was. And I was saying that I have never once regretted setting up on my own, leaving corporate to work for myself, freelance entrepreneur, whatever the word is you want to say, just work for myself.
I don't really like those kind of Pruner titles, so just work for myself. Don't get me started on one printer. I would never once regretted stepping out and going on my own. But what's really interesting, to give you a bit of context about Zoe and me, and we're going to put this out on both of our podcasts. We need to explain I work with individual clients, do corporate work, and you might say, oh, no, I thought you just said that you wanted to leave corporate.
Well, I actually like doing corporate because I like doing the facilitation. I like doing leadership development. I like doing kind of exec coaching, but I like doing it on my terms. When I choose with the clients that I choose the corporate clients. I don't want to work full time for somebody and have some of the things that you associate with that, which is the politics, the hours, the deadlines being tied to that.
We're away now. It's Monday. We're recording this, and we're on an away overnighter in Margate for places. So that's what I do. But I mainly work with individuals rather than business, because that's where my passion is. My absolute passion is helping women to realize that they can achieve the things they want to achieve. They can pursue their dream.
I firmly believe that in order to get the four FS in your life for freedom, flow, fulfillment and fun, you have to work for yourself, because then nobody's telling you what to do. You decide. You choose your freedom, you decide what that looks like. That's really important to me. But Zoe does something really different. Yes, but there's some close connections. Right.
And this is the idea of that fulfillment is really important and doing something really meaningful, I think not just for myself, but I've been really lucky because I worked in HR and learning and development for years and years and lots of different industries, and I got to watch people develop. And I really enjoyed that. And I was talking to somebody about this recently saying that I felt like that was really meaningful work for me.
But then when I realized that actually I wanted to step more into the diversity, equity and inclusion space, which is basically just how can we make sure that our careers and our study and all of the opportunities in the work space are equitable and fair for every single person, regardless of their background? Then all of a sudden I was like, wow, yeah, okay. That stuff was meaningful before that, leadership development stuff and everything. And it is.
But for me, this is so much more meaningful. And even when I'm exacerbated at the end of the day, we facilitate, we coach, we develop content, we project management, we do Di, audit and consultancy. All of the wonderful things that you would expect to help kind of small to medium businesses and starts and scale ups to know how to be more inclusive and to educate and raise awareness and start some really great conversations to create that space and create the space for diversity as well.
That's really, really important. And so that's something that just really excites me. So even when I'm having a really hard day or I've had a really tough conversation inside or outside of work, and this is the thing probably with yours as well. You never take any time off because I can be out in a pub with some friends, and I'll meet someone else's friend and they'll be like, what do you do? And I'll tell them they're really interested. So we always end up that conversation.
It's great because I love it. But you never switch off. But it's different, right. Because when you work for somebody else, you do want to switch off. Yeah, it's yours and you enjoy it. You don't mind it. Oh, yeah. Because it doesn't feel like work. But also, you and I have this real passion to help people. We've got this real drive to want to create for you.
It's for the women and for the confidence and for them to really start to reach their potential and even discover that their potential maybe is wider than they thought. For me, it's about that. How can I create enough curiosity in the minds of the managing directors and the senior leadership teams and the managers, et cetera, for them to go, oh, I need to look out for all of these different biases or different ways in which I might be preventing representation from happening and inclusivity.
So that really drives me. But what's interesting about that, when we've both been talking is when we both started out, we were quite vague in what we were doing. We weren't really niche down and clear about what we wanted to do. And like you say, you came to that. That's an area that you were interested in anyway. But that's the area that you ultimately decide to really focus on with Zing. And for me, I was like, yeah, a bit of confidence, a bit of this on the other.
But ultimately it is about helping women to go, yes, I can leave paid employment and the stability. And I'm doing a quotes because I don't think the stability is quite what it might have been before the pandemic. But helping women to go, yes, I can do that. I've got it in me. I've got the self belief, the self confidence, the self assurance, the drive, the determination. I know why I want to do it. I know what I want to get from it.
I'm ready to push myself forward, but I need somebody to talk it through with. I need somebody to guide me, coach and mentor me so that I'm ready to go for it. Yeah. It's interesting with the work that you do as well, because you've got and I know that we use imposter syndrome a lot. Like, I know it gets expanded about quite a lot, but literally it is there a lot more for women than it is for men and obviously for non binary people as well.
But there's also the intersectionality piece around that. But the thing is these women have got to be at a certain point where they feel like, actually, maybe I can do this. So it's almost like they need to up their confidence level even at 1% before they can even think, well, who do I go to to help me go even further again?
I was talking on a podcast about this recently about the idea of women lifting women and creating space for women to get bigger and better in their careers or find more purpose in their lives in lots of different ways. And I think more women that are doing this, the more likely you are going to be able to help them on that next part, because if we can slowly bring them up and let them realize, you know what, you can, you might be able to do this.
You might be able to go way bigger than you're thinking or it might even be that big. But you want to make a shift in your life in some way. You need someone I think you need that support network, and you need somebody who knows how to tap into that to be able to do that. And I classed myself as a very confident person. I tasked myself. I haven't had any sort of syndrome for a long time.
I just knocked that out myself over the years, I guess, from coaching and various different things that I had access to, fortunately. But I still massively benefited from the two different areas that you've helped to move. So that program that we did last January. Yeah. In lockdown, one of the lockdowns and now with the business coaching, because it's not necessarily my confidence in myself. It's when I put myself out there for the business.
And I'm not going to say posture syndrome because I don't want to attach that to myself anymore. I'm trying to move away from that. But there is a level of confidence when you're putting yourself out there and you're charging clients for a service compared to when you're an employee and you were delivering that service as an employee. Yeah. So it's a completely different mindset.
And I think what your coaching is helping me with at the moment is to shift my mindset on that and to think much bigger and have much more of a vision, because I've been doing some really good things with the business and we've got some really great ways we're moving forward. But I never really understood how can I make it bigger? How can I really reach as many people as possible so we can make as big an impact as possible?
And you've really helped me to go, let's remove some of these Blinders a little bit that you put on your eyes because you're told to just kind of go down this route. And it just makes such a difference, not just in the strategy aspect. And obviously that's what we're here to do today on our little away day in Margate.
But it's that concept of being able to talk articulately with potential clients and customers and things like that, but also really deliver an even better service because I have very good clarity on what it is, the value that I offer clients, the purpose of what we're trying to do with the work and actually what they can then give back to society through the work that we're doing with them, that just really excites me.
That is the sort of stuff that makes me think it's meaningful, what we're doing great. We've got a business that's wonderful. But actually, ultimately we're making a difference in people's lives. And that is just the most impressive thing in the world to me anyway. Certainly feel that way. No, for sure. So somebody I worked with last year, she said to me, and I've got a little sound bite of it. I need to put that out around.
She said that I changed her life because I gave her the she came to a workshop that I did. And by what I said to her, she realized that she should stop waiting and just do the things that she wanted to do and free herself from. And it was to leave corporate and to go into her business with her partner. She was running herself ragged, working full time and then doing that weekend and just being totally exhausted. And she just needed the push to go, you can do it. It's okay. You can leave.
And that's what she did. I didn't tell her what to do. That's what she wanted to do. Yeah. But she just needed somebody outside of like family, partner, friends, just to say, you know what, you could do that. Why aren't you doing that? And she's just like loving life ever since, because now she has the freedom that she always wanted that she couldn't get before.
I was just going to say when we were talking about the ways that I've helped you in those two ways that you just said for me, the biggest barrier that women and men, I mean, I principally work with women. That isn't to say I don't work with men, but my focus is women. Is that because we don't quite know how to get there? Well, we think it's one jump from employed to self employed. It's salary to free for no salary.
It's having paid holiday and maybe a company car to nothing because they can't work out how to do that. They don't do it. They haven't got the vision to see that they could transition into that. That's why I described myself, to find myself as a dream transition mentor, because you're not going from right. Today I'm doing this, and tomorrow I'm going to do something totally different. But I've done nothing to prepare myself for that. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
You incrementally, grow, learn, develop, reflect, change, growing confidence. Even if you were confident before, it's a different confidence when you're certainly putting yourself out of business. Right. So you have to be quite different. And I was saying to you, some of the stuff that I brought for this strategy that we're doing today. I'm looking back and it was from what I wanted 2020 to look like, obviously not knowing the pandella was coming, I don't think I'd even heard the word pandemic.
But anyway, really interesting. So a lot of the things that I wrote down that I wanted to do, I've done a lot of the things that you'd be pleased to know because it's 2022, so you'll be pleased to know that I did those. But some of the things I wrote down about wanting to feel more at the center of my business, more confident, more strategic, et cetera, I've done that. So when I look back at that, I think, wow, I was really unsure now, I'm sure. Yeah.
So now I get to the different now I get to another level. I just keep moving up. New level, new devil, right. So you just keep progressing and learning as you go. Yeah. You know what I'm just thinking of? I'm thinking because back in 2020, obviously, was when I started my business as well. And I think I've said this to you before, but I remember on the 1 September, which is when I officially stopped working for my last company, I officially started working for my new one.
I opened my computer, stretched my arms out, put my fingers on the keyboard and just said, how do I do? Yeah, exactly what do I do? Like, I've got to build a business from nothing. And I think actually, if I'd have had you because we kind of chatted, but we were still in the midst of trying to figure out how we would do it. Yeah. If I'd have had your transition work, I think it would have made it so much smoother. I probably wouldn't have had so many mini breakdowns in that first year.
Like all of that stress and fear of not making any money and that stress of not knowing if what I was doing was the right thing. There's so much trial and error, isn't there in the first couple days. But that idea that you look back and you think about how far you've come from 2021 in 2022 is huge and the fact we've just been looking at so this is the middle of the day. We're recording this. We've already done a few hours this morning, we've got a few more hours this afternoon.
But we've already come quite far in our thinking and we've actually started to understand what we're trying to push forward. And I think it's been really nice to have that time to reflect and see how far we've come. Yes. But I know I said that you have supported me with those two different things, but actually the other thing we know is that day to day stuff and the fact that we just get it.
So there's a lot of people in our lives that are in full time employment and they're very happy doing that but they don't understand what it means to set up your own business. So they don't understand when you can't go to something because you're working at the time. They're not working out or that you were flush the month before, but the next month you need to be a little bit more kind of reserved with your cash and all of that sort of stuff. They also don't seem to incentive.
If you say you've landed a big contract, they're like, wow, that's amazing. I think that just kind of happened. I'm like, no, now the real work starts to do all of that work for that contract. But it's just been really interesting to have somebody that just gets it. And we're very lucky. Like both of our partners just they're very supportive. Yeah. They've always been our biggest cheerleaders and stuff like that, which is great.
I'm also really lucky because my partner also had their own business a few years ago. So they really do understand all the nuances of all the stresses and things like that. But excuse the cough. There is something really special. Maybe it's the woman thing.
Maybe it's the woman's support thing, because we get all of that other stuff as well that perhaps our partners don't necessarily get and the lack of confidence that we might feel from time to time because we've had a bit of a knock or we've struggled with being able to position ourselves and we get that kind of envy. And we may see someone that's doing what we're doing, and we think they're doing it on such a much bigger scale. But one of the biggest lessons I've had
is to stop comparing stuff to other people. Yes. Understand your competitors. That's really important. But if you know that what you're offering is big value and you know that it's making a difference, just focus on making that even better, even better value for people and really making sure the right people are seeing it. And a big part of that is having that support network. That's been huge. Yeah, huge. And I think we were talking about this yesterday.
Weren't we just about saying that even when you have your own business, you obviously don't operate when you work for somebody else. There's different departments deal with everything. Right? Hr, there is finance, there's sales, marketing, whether there's all these different people. When you work for yourself, it is just you, you have to be all things to all people at the beginning, certainly before you get some money behind you, then you can start paying people to help you.
But you've got to be all things to all people. And then there are things that you need on associated costs because you're presenting yourself as a credible business. And it's hard for people who don't run their own business to kind of understand what you're doing. I don't know whether it sometimes feels a bit like showy when you're doing stuff, but it's like, hey, this is my business. I've got podcasts, I'm writing a book, I'm having professional photo shoots. I'm getting PR.
I'm doing all these things. This is me, this is me, this is who I am. And it's sometimes hard to find the people that understand that. Do you know what? And I know I've banged on a little bit about the female thing, but I do wonder whether there is some sort of unconscious mindset that women are told to be small. And if we're shouting about all of these amazing things that we're doing, then that's a bit uncovered and it's not very attractive.
And all of those things that were supposed to be a bit more timid. I don't feel like I hear male business owners talking the same way. No, because I feel exactly the same way sometimes I'm really cringy when people say they've watched my if it's a friend or a family member or something, say they've watched a video of mine or listen to a podcast. And I'm like, oh, how was it? When actually, I know it's bloody good. Like, I know it's good because my clients really like it.
So surprised at that. I found that. And I thought you would be too. I think I'm getting there, but it's really interesting. It took me a really long time to put myself out there on social media, because I'm not a social media person. I don't really have social media for myself. Obviously, I have it for the business. I need to make sure that people are seeing the stuff that we're doing and they're getting the helpful resources that we're putting out there.
And hopefully it's starting some really good conversations. But it was only maybe a year, not even maybe like nine months ago, that I was just like, I know I've got to put myself out there because ultimately I am the expert, so I am the credibility. And when you're working with the type of work that we're doing, whether it's coaching or whether it's Di training, whatever it is, people need to believe that you know what you're talking about.
And so you have the evidence that you have to show that. And of course you can do all sort of demos and stuff with future clients and what have you. But if you're giving people little snippets of what you're going to be like in a facilitated workshop or whatever, they're going to realize that you have credibility. And credibility is hands down, the most important part of my industry, because there's just so many Cowboys out there doing this, and they're taking money off people.
They're not really caring. They're just checking out some two, three hour session or some elearning or something, and it's making no difference at all. It's just ticking a box. And that was a massive part of my purpose was that I genuinely wanted to make a social impact. Okay, I'm working with organizations, but ultimately they're employing local people, they're working with their local communities. So you're going to have a social impact when people have more of a social conscience.
And if I can nurture that and grow that a little bit, then that's really important. But the videos being in the podcast and all of that sort of stuff, it really took me a moment and it's not a lack of confidence. It really took me out of my comfort zone because I'm just not used to doing it and it's interesting. So this morning when we got here, when we were just sitting down, I did Alive in my Facebook group and I just said, oh, I need to do Alive. I normally do at ten.
It's five plus and I was late. I need to do it. And I just started talking and then I finished and I was doing a little tour of the house already and you saw when I could never do that. So interesting, isn't it? These things, but I'm so past that now. I was like that in 2019. When I first started out, I couldn't do like a live on Facebook or Instagram. I was so worried. Now I don't care. Just super download it. Yeah, you were. It was really nice to listen to, actually.
It's definitely something I could work towards. It's really funny because if you put me in an exec space or with the board or I'm having to pitch and ask for money and I'm getting lots of negativity or kind of closed mindset to come back to me, I'm fine. I can do that. That's easy. If you put me in a facilitated workshop and I'm coaching people and facilitating and have some really great discussions right in my element.
But point a camera at me or ask me to talk to no one, that's where I really have to push myself out of my comfort zone. I think there's something about the type of work that we do. We get lots of energy from the people that we're working with. So there is something around knowing that I can push all of that energy out there and it makes a difference to the person's learning environment. So I've had sessions recently.
Some of them have only been two hour sessions, but I've had a couple in a day because one of my clients is kind of ramped up their work a little bit and they're only 4 hours and I've got an hour or two in between. So I'm doing various other bits of work, but I am pushing myself so hard in each of those 2 hours. I am shattered by today.
But the outcome from the learners, the feedback and the way in which they're engaging in the conversations that some of them are a bit contentious, some of them can be a little bit triggering because the type of work that I do is phenomenal. So I know that even though I'm shattered after doing a couple of those 2 hours in each day. The difference it makes to their learning experience. It's worth all of that energy.
But I can do it because they're coming back to me if you've got no one in front of me. I really struggle. I really do. Well, I'm fine on video now, but if you take photos of me, if you take with professional photographer. I just don't like that I'm so uncomfortable. I'm like really cringy. I just find it quite difficult. It's interesting what you said about we were talking about closed mindset and growth mindset and we were talking about this yesterday.
Even though yesterday was our hang out, we ended up talking about business. You and I are so in that space of growth mindset and pushing forward and believing in yourself and constant development learning, opening up yourself to new ideas, all that sort of thing. And we're both so into that. And sometimes that's hard with others. That's why it's so important to have like a business friendship. So I've got an accountability buddy in Argentina who I speak to every Wednesday. He's brilliant.
But for you and I, because we're in the UK, there's that real support thing that matters. Yeah. And I just find it so great because I think I know, like the other day you thought you got a call about some potential work, which is massive, and you sent me a text back, oh my God, I'm so excited. And I get that if you said that to somebody who's not like, okay, don't really get it. We're really excited for each other and we're excited and we're supportive. But the other thing is we recommend but we
recommend because we both value each other's work. Yeah. And we know how good the other one is. Yeah. It's not us being Echo Chamber or us thinking, oh, nepotism. We just know it genuinely will make a difference to somebody. And I think that there's something really powerful in that.
And that is really funny, you mentioned that particular piece of work, because whenever I get something really exciting happen or even sometimes if something's gone not so great and I'm feeling a bit sad, there are three people at the top of my WhatsApp that are message. There's my mom, my partner, and you. Oh, really? Because you're the person that gets it from a business sense. And you are hugely invested in my business and my personal success, obviously, my partner is hugely invest in it.
And of course, my mom as well. And also you've probably the three of you. I've had some others, of course. But the three of you have been my biggest support as you've been there picking up the pieces when it's not been going so well, but also celebrating any of our wins. And we went out for dinner and drinks at the start of the year. Do you remember? And we had a few drinks in Kingscross, probably a few too many. My husband thought I'd been murdered. Yes. And we were just celebrating each other.
It didn't start off like that. We were just like, oh, let's catch up and talk about how the business is doing. And we just haven't really reflected on anything. And then we were talking about it, we just got really pissed and went, oh, actually, we've done really well. I think it's before Christmas. I think it's October, probably just after a year of fruit to us, wasn't it? So then, if you think about where we are now, we're in Margate, which you might think is the strange destination.
So I've been coaching Zoe and we were talking about it's really interesting because I was talking about some stuff and then I was like, oh, you need to think about this. And you were like, oh, that's too much. It's overwhelming. I can't need to break that down into smaller things because I was just talking mentoring rather than coaching. Anyway, so then I said it would be really good to actually have some time to actually sit in the same room and spend together.
Then we said, oh, should we have a little away day? Because if you work in corporate, you get like workshops and seminars and stuff like that. I don't get anything like that. So we said, oh, yeah, let's do it. Where should we go? And I said, I want to go to the beach because I find although we haven't actually walked on the beach, we've walked alongside it last night, but I find there's something really therapeutic and really calming about being by the sea.
So then we were like, Where should we go? Where should we go? It's not too far. Anyway, I've always wanted to come to market and so here we are, market. We're the most beautiful kind of Scandi style Airbnb. We only went and met Tracy Emmanuen yesterday, which is very Margate. And I went in the Turner Gallery while I wait for you to arrive. And today, Olivia Coleman is filming a film on the seafront and Margate is at a top boy. And we missed Colin first. We just gutted about.
But what happens to be Margaret? Yeah, it's really funny because a load of my friends have moved to Kent in the last few years from London. It happens quite a lot, as people will probably know. So I knew of Margaret, I knew of all these places, but I didn't really understand them. When you said, I was like, yeah, sure, I'll go there. But it's beautiful, like some of the streets. It's like you're walking down the set of a movie. It really is. It's stunning.
It's so lovely, but it's been really interesting. Like you say, we bumped into Tracy Yemen yesterday, but we've just had this space and this time to do all the things that we kind of talk about. But we never make time and space to do this sort of thing. So I think already this morning where we started from where we've got to because we are giving each other the space and questioning each other and challenging each other on our numbers and all of these different things.
And I've only cried once this trip, so that's actually quite good for me, who's a massive crier. And I haven't cried. Yes. So there's a real sense of camaraderie, but I think there's space. I've got a beautiful office at the bottom of the garden, and I love it, but I'm in there on my own. The place of shows is amazing. It's open plan. It's beautiful. It's got a massive table. We've got flip charts and pens and many pens, fruit and post it.
And we blew tucked them up to the windows, hoping it's all off. But it just has given us the space to really explore and think about what are we trying to achieve. And you're right be quite challenging. And I said to you, I was quite surprised. I went a bit introvert earlier. I was a bit like quiet. And I think it's because I'm scared, because I've got massive ambitions for my business, but I still have I wouldn't call it imposter syndrome, but it's a little bit of fear. Yeah.
But you've got way in high. You've got to set these targets. You've got to set these goals. Otherwise you just drift. You've got to put it out there and put it out there with somebody who gets it. Yeah. And actually challenges too. And actually one of the challenges that I said to you, which to anyone that's not running their own business or is not considering running their own business, this won't make any sense, really. It might even sound a little bit narcissistic, but it's not.
If you don't believe in what you're doing, you shouldn't be doing it. And my question to you was, well, if you don't do the project that we're talking about, what are you taking away from people? And then that shifted. And it's great because we're both coaches, so we both know the kind of trigger questions that are going to really make somebody think. And we can read people quite well.
But that question in itself, actually also then made me think that if I did decide to give up for whatever reason or not, that I would. But if I ever decided to give up, what am I taking away from the work that I'm doing? Whether it's my pro Bono work or whether it's the paid work that I do with clients? And ultimately, I'm taking away the ability for them to have those expertly facilitated conversations where it really shifts mindset.
It can really make a difference to representation and diversity and inclusion belonging. Yada, yada, yada. But if I don't do that anymore, that's one less expert Dai trainer and auditor and expert in general. That's that extra person off. And then there's loads of Cowboys out there and I can't do that I can't let people do a bad job and charge all of these companies loads of money, make no difference. And actually, in some cases, make it worse because they've seen our D. Ei chain.
It's a load of old rubbish. We had this terrible person come and do this terrible thing. There's no point in investing in it anymore. And then they carry on doing the same habits and making the world an even less fair place for other people. And then the same with you. And I can only use my example, of course, but you just set an example. There is somebody that you said you changed their life like the work you did.
So you have to think it's almost selflessly if you take your work away, if you don't lean I hate leaning, but you don't lean into it and really push yourself outside of your comfort zone to go. Maybe I could have this much growth, maybe I could reach this many different clients, maybe this and this. If you don't do that, you're actually taken away. And I think that's a slightly different mindset to think about.
But yeah, I just thought it was a really interesting conversation that we had earlier. And even though it was aimed towards the way you were feeling about it, it really made me reflect on the work that I'm doing. Yeah, definitely. And I think it's interesting because I never think about giving up because I honestly believe the way that my business has grown, the way that I've grown as a business owner, the way it's continuing to grow, it will only get bigger and better.
And if I give up, I'll never know what it could have been. So that's what will keep me going. Plus, I'm probably unemployable, to be honest right now. I can go to Margate on the road on a Sunday and get pissed and then do stuff on a Monday. Yeah, nobody wants that. So how do you find your people then? Obviously, we got introduced by somebody else. So if somebody was listening and we're saying you need to find your people, what would you say? So I guess it depends what we're talking about.
If you're talking to people that are considering starting their own business or considering going out on their own in some way, there's so many different things. It took me a while, if I'm honest, you were potluck. Jim clearly knew that both of us would get on really well and it just happened. It just clicked. It hasn't been that way for lots of people. There were people from before me setting up the business that I thought were my people.
And then it turned out that they weren't being very supportive and were actively holding back different pieces of work and things like that. So sorry about the door slamming. Someone having a good old time outside. But then I learned, oh, wow, there are some people that are envious or because they don't have the confidence to go out and do it themselves. I wouldn't sabotage this too strong word, but they were holding back from helping out. Yes.
And it's been really interesting because there's one person in particular that I'm thinking of. And then later on, maybe six months after they didn't have to share something, I can't remember what it was. They then asked me for some advice. They were like, oh, I'm doing some work with a client, and they need me to know a little bit about diversity and inclusion if you've got anything you can help me with.
So I, of course, helped because I regardless of how I feel about that person and how they didn't support me, if the world is going to have more conversations around diversity and inclusion, I don't care whether or not I get the work. I just want those conversations to happen because ultimately my big aim, my big goal is to just create a fairer world for everybody.
Now, I know that's a massive ambition, but if we're working with our networks and we're able to support in that way and everyone can upskill and be even better at what they're doing, then naturally that's going to happen. So some people from before, of course, some are popular. But the other thing is you have to find your people, and it's going to take a bit of trial and error. One example I'll give is the places in which we based our offices.
So for a while we were looking for offices and we were trying to figure out how can we find a space that we're going to reinvest the money that our clients are giving to us in a way that is true to our values. So it had to go back into somewhere where the local community was being supported and there was work being done around diversity and inclusion. Otherwise, I'm just part of the problem, aren't I? So I went to lots of different places, and I'm in Brixton, South London.
So as you can imagine, there's lots of really vibrant, amazing places. But a couple of the spaces that I went to and they're very central bricks and they're taking up quite a lot of real estate there, which is massively gentrified anyway. So lots of original bricks. And people have had to move out because they can't afford to live there anymore.
So one of the first questions I asked, I went to these really swish offices and I was like, oh, so how do you give back to the local community and how do you make sure that you're supporting that? And the person just looked at me really blankly and they had no idea. They were like, oh, well, I'll ask and I'll let you know. You're clearly not doing anything, are you? Well, they asked and she was like, oh, well, we donate to this chat.
I can't even remember what it was, but it was nothing basically. And then I went to another one and they didn't have a clue either. And then I went to Impact Brixton, which is the space where our offices are. We're doing some work with them around divestity and inclusion for some really great social mobility work. There's so many social enterprises in there.
Every single person that runs a business from that space, including the space itself, does some sort of social impact work, whether it is like myself, where this is our whole company and this is what we do, or whether they are a recruitment company that are really involved in making sure there's better representation in various different industries or there's this really great charity called Spiral there, and they do some really great work with the youth in the area
and how to help them to think bigger about their careers and all of that sort of stuff. So for me, that's where I found a lot of my people, because they have a similar mindset to me. They want to give back to the local community. I think figuring out what your values and your purpose are for yourself personally and then for your business, which are most likely very aligned, then you'll know where to go and find your people. Yeah.
And the other thing I was going to say, because I've been in little memberships and groups and stuff like that, and I always prefer the smaller, smaller environments. You can be in groups that have got like 15,000 people in it's just too much, it's too noisy. I don't love it. But when you set up your own business, go out on your own, whatever you want to call it.
It's a bit like when you start school or start University or have a baby, you meet people who are doing it, that thing at the same time that you're doing. And then you make friends with them. And then over time you evolve and you work out that you might have been friends with them just because they set up a business, but actually their core values or they were very different to you personality wise, you didn't match. Therefore, maybe they're not right for you.
So it is trial and error, but it's trying to find those ones that really support you and champion you and help you through the good and the bad because there will be good and bad. And I think my network that I've got, I'm really lucky because I do feel I have that support and I know lots of people who don't have that at all and would like to talk business with somebody who don't have that.
So I think, yeah, definitely it's trial and error, but you've got to put yourself out there to meet other people. And like my accountability buddy Sabine, who's fantastic in Argentina, she just put a call out saying, I really want a buddy. And I was like, hey, we just started chatting and we get to know each other, but we've been chatting for nearly a year. I think we started maybe July last year, so nearly a year and like hugely supportive, really supportive business relationship.
She's fantastic and I feel really lucky to have her in a different way. Do you see what I mean? I would like to think that at some point I can meet her in real life, but it's so nice to have you online and in real life too. Yeah, Margate is lovely, but it's not Argentina. Argentina. And I hadn't really thought about this until we just had this conversation. Now, something about being true to your values and that's when you'll find your people.
Yeah, it's so true, because if I think about all of the people that I would contact, if I got a fantastic new client to celebrate, if I had had a bad day, like maybe a pitch went badly or something like that, or if I was just exhausted and I just needed somebody to talk to, like I said, you'd be top of my list. But also I've got other Di trainers and we share knowledge as well. That's the other thing. So we are hugely invested in the work that we're doing.
And if we find a new technique or a new model or a new tool or there's something really interesting in a podcast or something like that, we'll share it with each other and I think it doesn't just go for you when you're in your industry. I've had the same thing. I was talking to someone saying a few months ago, I'm starting a podcast and they were like, oh, let me send you over all of this stuff. And they're in a very different business to what I'm in, but they had some experience with podcasts.
They didn't want me to waste loads of time making the same mistakes they did and vice versa. I've helped them with other stuff and I think that there's something really powerful in that. I have definitely found as a general rule, that a lot of the female business owners, we naturally can't help but nurture each other.
I don't know whether it's gender normal, whatever it is, but then what I found with a lot of the male business owners that I'm friends with and have learnt loads from is they'll be much more transparent in their communication, so they'll be like, you really need to change that very direct. So I feel like there's a really nice balance. I do think you have to and I've got lots of different age ranges around me as well.
So I've got people that have been running businesses for like 30 years and they've given me some great advice. I've got people that are just starting out now and now I can pass on my knowledge from the last two years. You've got to just surround yourself with lots of different people, but people that have similar values that align to yours. I think it's just been really beneficial. I couldn't have done this for the last couple of years without people around me for sure. Absolutely.
Well, if you think about when you work you have your colleagues, right? So when you work for yourself you need to find your colleagues whatever they look like whatever industry Walker life whatever.
You just need to find your people who get you yeah, that are going to celebrate your wins and also some of the things that your friends and your family that are employed you will say something that to them will seem really small but somebody that owns their own business or runs their own business in whatever way will be like, oh, I know all of the tears and the sweat and the hard work that went into that really small thing so I'm going to celebrate
with you the same way that you're celebrating your family might be like, oh, okay. That's nice. Do you know how many hours I had? Exactly. So important. Loved our chat. Oh, my God. Literally 49 minutes. We could have gone on forever. Yeah, we must put a stop to it because we've got lunch to eat we've been twelve we've got lunch to eat and more work to do.
Such a great conversation and hopefully for people listening to this will be reassured that it's not lonely you don't have to be no you could be working alone but you don't have to be lonely no and I do think that there's a choice element there.
I think you have to choose to not be lonely doing it yeah, but there's so many people there's so many networks social media is brilliant for that as well now but there's so many different places you can go and find your people and your people will change like I've got people that I'll only go to once a year to talk to or people like Laura like you who will talk quite often so it's just about There might be some people that will help you right at
that moment in that particular thing but just get lots of different people and network it's really important. Definitely. There you go. Right back to Margate back to strategy planning.