Hello and welcome to another episode of a conversation with a Zing learning podcast. Today we have the absolute joy of being joined by Lauralee Whyte, who is the founder and director of Spectrum Speakers, a fantastic agency that helps to increase representation across lots and lots of different events throughout the world. Now, we've had some really, really good conversations with Lauralee in the past. We've even collaborated with her on some fantastic projects as well.
And she's just got some really insightful things to say today, talking a little bit around lots of different parts of representation and why it's so important and how we can contribute to an even better system for greater equity. We hope you enjoy it. So grab a cuppa, kick back and take a listen. Hello and welcome to another episode of a conversation with. This time we're very excited because we get to spend to the fantastic Lauralee from Spectrum speakers.
Now, I'm not going to speak for Lauralee. I'm going to get Lauralee to explain who they are and a little bit about their experience. Hi, Zoe. Thank you for having me. As Zoe said, my name is Lauralee. My pronouns are she, her, and I am the founder of Spectrum speakers and entertainers. We are an agency dedicated to representation within the speaking and entertainment industry.
I guess a little bit about my background is I've worked in the events industry forever, pretty much like my entire life in some way, shape or form. There's kind of been events, but in connection with people specifically. That's a kind of top line whistle stop tour. No, that's brilliant.
I actually didn't know you were in this industry forever for your whole life, so that's going to be really interesting when we talk about what you've seen in the past and how that's connecting to the work that you do now. But of course, I know spectrum speakers because we've collaborated on a project before. We're definitely going to collaborate in the future.
But I'm really interested to hear a little bit about why you set the organisation up and a bit about your mission for the fantastic work that you do. Yeah, absolutely. I set spectrum up. As I said, I've worked in the events industry forever. I've worked with speakers as a speaker agent, I would say, for the past six or seven years, and there was just a massive lack of diversity, firstly, and especially representation. And I use the two terms very intentionally and separately.
And it's funny because I feel like, not that I wasn't that aware of it, but for a long time I realised that I wasn't connected with what with what I was doing, like, I was kind of like. I was just. I just felt like I was going through the motions and I kept thinking, what? What is it? Is it that I don't like my job anymore? I couldn't quite put my finger on it.
And it wasn't until sort of COVID came about and, you know, obviously everything that happened with Black Lives Matter and I think everyone became so introspective, myself especially, and I realised I was really complicit in just sort of like, perpetuating the industry of just kind of white people, especially, like white males, being the authority on everything and on anything. And it kind of made sense.
It was like, well, I'm never being asked to provide speakers or entertainers to talk about anything but diversity. And even that at that time was a kind of afterthought and also something, you know, something that people were just starting to talk about and think about. But it wasn't, it wasn't really so much a value. And, yeah, I just.
I actually had no ambitions to run my own business when I kind of realised and I was like, okay, this is the problem and this is how I can contribute to a better system in a way that I know how. I was like, I'm going to work for an agency that's like super representative and really shares all of the values that I have and it didn't exist.
So. So, yeah, it came about because it was a problem that I couldn't unsee and I went into my network and I started building my connections of speakers who not just talk about diversity, but actually everything but diversity and, you know, people from every single protected characteristic across every single industry and subject and topic. So, yeah, that was, that was really how spectrum came about and why. Why it needed to exist. What you.
I mean, ten things you just said that really resonate with me because I was the same as you. So I actually quit my job in February 2020, which seemed like a really good idea at the time because I'd got to the same point. I felt like I was being complicit in just perpetuating the same learning and the same types of people that were accessing those opportunities. And I didn't feel like inside an organisation I was able to make the impact that I needed to make.
So actually I started to think about how can I contribute to a better system? How can I make sure I'm not part of the problem and instead I'm part of the solution. So, yeah, same as you, I actually was applying for jobs when I was having coaching. And through the coaching, I kind of thought, actually, what am I doing? There's so many rubbish Dei learning companies out there that are just spilling off the same old rubbish. Like you said, it's a bit of an afterthought.
You know, they do leadership development programmes, but also Dei, or customer service programmes, but also Dei. And I was just like this. It's not what I want to do, actually, the whole sole focus on what we're trying to do is to create better representation in general. So that really resonates with me, definitely. That's. Yeah, that's so. That's so funny. It's almost identical to my journey and thought process.
Yeah, definitely very different industries and obviously we've had very different experiences, but we clearly got to the same place. Not necessarily at the same time, but similar ish times in our lives. Yeah, I'm really interested in something that you just said, actually, which was that you keep the words representation and diversity intentionally separate. What did you mean by that?
I guess I mean that I get so many requests for diversity speakers and it's a concept that I really struggle to get across to clients because they think that the only way to bring about diversity to their event is to bring someone from a protected characteristic to talk about diversity, namely to talk about their challenges, mainly to kind of trauma mind sometimes. And actually, that quite often, that person isn't a diversity expert.
You know, they're somebody who's worked in an industry for a really long time, but they faced challenges because of. Because of who they are and where they come from. And it feels a bit like, well, let's bring on this poor person to tell us about how tough their life is. Rather than actually. To me, representation is about actually bringing that person into the event.
To say, I do this, I talk about business, I'm a really incredible business person, I'm an incredible innovator, I'm an incredible creator, I'm a great technology mavende. I just so happen to be a woman and I just so happen to be black and I just so happen to be disabled. You know, that's. That, to me, is representation. Yeah, I totally agree. I'm nodding furiously. Not that anyone can see that, but there's a couple of things that you just said there.
I think there's something about normalising representation. So rather than, like you say, rather than it being a trauma mining or whatever else we're actually saying, not everybody's experience is horrific, but there are some aspects to that experience that are important to hear from a different perspective as well. And I think that's just as important as talking about the reality of under representation for lots of different marginalised groups.
I've got a really good friend of mine who is from the LGBTQ community, very proud and out there and super flamboyant and amazing individual and very successful in their HR career. And I remember asking him if he wanted to come on to the podcast and he said, I can, but I don't really have any horror stories. Like, life's actually been pretty great, apart from some of the more obvious social and kind of systematic things. And I said, but that's great. Why does it always have to be doom and gloom?
It's really important to look at both sides of it and I think that's something the spectrum do really, really well. Thank you. Yeah, that's. That's kind of one of the things that we talk about. And I guess it's quite funny. Sorry to segue ever so slightly, but, you know, I get asked a lot to come to events and talk about diversity and inclusion, but I'm always very vocal about the fact that that's not. It's actually not my area of expertise.
You know, I want to talk about representation, but I. Representation, but I also want to talk about the joy in being more inclusive. Sometimes it feels. Sometimes it feels really heavy and. Yeah, the approach. The approach isn't always kind of light. Not that it's not light, but I just think that sometimes it just needs to be seen as a really good thing, a really positive thing all the time. Yeah, I think there needs to be some of that consistency there.
And I think consistency is probably important, more important now than ever, because all organisations at the moment are having a really tough time. You know, some of even the really big organisations are cut in budgets. They're having to let people go, they're having to change the way their organisations work to survive this. This quite hard time financially for a lot of organisations.
And I think, yeah, that's a really important message because that afterthought feeling around DeI and that concept of actually it's not that important. Well, actually it is that inclusion, that consistency is how you get.
If you forget about the human factor, if you forget about the social factors and the government factors and all of the things that mean that in businesses we're having to deal with all of these external, social, systematic inequities, then you've got that concept of we will be a much more sustainable and progressive organisation. We'll be able to outlast our competitors if we just focus on creating a sense of inclusion and belonging for everybody in the organisation.
Not just everybody that looks like the exec or everybody that has kind of worked in the organisation traditionally and those sorts of things, but also, of course, that intersectional piece. And this is something we talk about a lot. I've probably mentioned it every single podcast, because it's that idea that I need to belong in all of the aspects of my identity, not just the one that is the most comfortable for people.
And often we find gender is the first step in for a lot of organisations when they're looking at their DEI strategy, because for them it's a safe, comfortable thing to talk about, talk about. Whereas if you try and introduce race and disability and socioeconomics and, you know, things like that, it becomes really uncomfortable because people just don't know as much and they're less comfortable talking about it. Yeah, absolutely. And I guess like that.
That's another thing that I kind of talk about a lot when I'm asked to speak on the subject at events. Like, again, it's like I don't know everything by any stretch. It's very much a learning curve and there isn't a one size fits all solution or strategy. I think people get worried about asking questions. I think if you can show some vulnerability in your lack of knowledge when you're asking questions and you want to know more, then that's helpful.
If you want to say, okay, I don't quite know the best ways to, you know, address the disabled community. Like just kind of maybe open conversations in and around that, but with a lot of the fear of not knowing what to say and fear of getting things wrong. I've seen lots of stagnation in diversity and inclusion initiatives and progression, which is a shame. I don't know if that's something that you have observed. Yeah, definitely.
And it's interesting because we've just written a piece of work for a client around taking the fear out of discussing DEi, and we've got a whole big programme with one of our longer term clients that we work with, which is the whole programme is based around removing that fear and creating that vulnerability in those spaces to be able to get it wrong. And you're so spot on. I get exactly the same thing.
So I often get asked to do talks or sessions or whatever on neurodiversity and things like that. And I said, well, listen, I can definitely reference neurodiversity and I can point you in the right position for signposting and materials, but I'm not an expert in it. I mean, there's never going to be one expert in it because it's so broad.
But if you want to bring a speaker in that can definitely talk about it from a personal perspective, you're going to need to speak to someone that has a form of neurodiversity and often then I'll kind of pass that work on to someone else. And I think that's the same as what you're saying with your.
When people are asking you about Dei, you can be really honest and vulnerable and open about what you do and don't know, but there's going to be some areas where actually a part of our job and the social value and I guess that responsibility we have for this work is that then we pass that work on to the right person. I think you're in a really wonderful position because of all of the amazing speakers you've got on your books.
You've always got someone you can pass something very specific on and you know that you're then creating opportunities that those people might not have actually seen just because of your network. Absolutely, definitely. Yeah, that's. That's a big part of what we do and why we do it. It's. It's levelling, levelling out the playing field, but also just kind of making that field bigger. Because it's never about taking anyone else's pie. Right. It's just about creating more slices of the pie. Yeah.
I mean, yeah, we could talk about that until the cows come. It's definitely a conversation we've been having with a lot of people more recently. And I was talking to somebody the other day and they do some really fantastic work around social value, measuring for organisations to understanding how different projects and programmes actually make an impact in the community. So they were talking about the cycles that happen and it's so, so true. You know, we go through these cycles.
Obviously the Black Lives Matter movement has been there for a really long time, but of course it came to a lot of public awareness when George Floyd was murdered and all of a sudden everybody was in, like you say, this very introspective, reflective mode. And of course me too helped people to understand a little bit more. And there's always going to be these cycles of things that happen.
And I think that's where your earlier comment of, you have to be consistent with this stuff because if you're as an organisation, just kind of putting, and I'm going to use air quotes here, diverse speakers into your events or you are asking, and we've had this before where we have been asked for a diverse facilitator and I'm like, what does that mean? Like, diverse doesn't mean anything. Diversity means something. But, yeah, it's really hard for me to know what you mean.
But ultimately I know what they're saying. They're saying they want a black or brown person to deliver because in their eyes, that's more credible when we're talking about these sorts of things. And I've got lots of different types of facilitators on my books that are from so many different backgrounds, which is exactly why I think our clients like working with us. But it's that idea that don't just go with what's happening in that moment.
You have to be consistent with your inclusion because that is what employees feel, that is what your customers feel, and that's the authentic piece that a lot of organisations, I don't think they get it quite right with a lot of their pr and a lot of their events, because you can see they're doing it as a token rather than something much more substantial. Yeah, I mean, we talk a lot to clients about their kind of longer term vision and strategy as opposed to just the one event.
It's like, how can you actually meaningfully weave inclusion and representation across your whole event and not just, you know, not just the diversity piece, but also, you know, across every single panel and discussion that you have at your event, making sure that each one of them has a good amount of representation in all of it. But, yeah, it's tricky. We get a lot of pushback or. Yeah, or we just. Or we just get clients who aren't really necessarily doing it for the right reasons.
And how do you handle that? Because we've definitely had some situations where we've been approached by organisations and really quickly, you can tell whether or not they're doing this because it's International Women's Month or it's Pride Month or Black History Month, whatever it is. And for me, I'm in a position where I can say, do you know what? We're probably nothing the right organisation for you.
But then part of me thinks, but also, could we go into that organisation and make a difference? So it's a bit of a catch 22. I don't know how you find that. Yeah, it's funny, I feel exactly the same way. And I know, especially when I started spectrum, that was a real concern of mine, you know, was like, what if people don't get it?
What if, you know, some clients that I'd worked with before and that I'd formed good relationships with, you know, what if they didn't come with me because they just saw me as a kind of diversity organisation? But as you say, I've been able to differentiate, like, who are my clients and who isn't. I know sometimes there is just that kind of initial lack of understanding how to communicate properly what you want and what your goals are and why.
And I think as long as there's the willingness to grow and to actually take on that information, we can work together. If not. If that's really not your intention at all and it's just about optics, then, yeah, then no. I've had no problem saying, actually, you're not my client. And often what makes it very obvious for me are clients who just pop out of the woodwork just for the kind of awareness days, but want a speaker for free or no budget, when for other events throughout the
year, you know, they have money for those speakers. So. Yeah, which is wild when you think about it. Talking of things that are a bit wild, I'm interested to hear if you've had any really wild requests from organisations, maybe something that's strange or funny or even. Maybe even inappropriate, you might not necessarily want to name the organisation. I'm just interested to hear if there's anything quite different that you've been asked from one of your speakers to do. I'll be honest.
No, not really. Not too outrageous. I mean, the things that always crack me up the most is the kind of the difference between the champagne taste and the beer money, you know, so I'll get somebody to be like, oh, yeah, can you get me barack Obama? It's like, well, I can. Do you have the money? And they're like, well, you know, I've got like, you know, five quid that I found in the back of my sofa and a bag of chips. Do you think you'll do it for that? And it's just like.
But with, you know, with a straight face and it's like, no, I'm gonna. I'm gonna guess that's a no. Like, well, why don't you ask? It's like, I'm not going to do that now. So I get a lot of that. Oh, dear, that's hilarious. I wonder. I wonder who they got for five pounds and a bunch of. I don't know. I don't know that I would like to know who that speaker is, but, yeah, good luck to them. Yeah. I've definitely been asked to get people, people for, say, pride month and things like that.
At a massively reduced fee. And I'm like, well, actually, I charge more for pride month for my facilitators because not only are they hotly in demand during that month, it's a lot on them to have to retalk about all of the things that they've been through. So you're going to actually probably pay more? Yes, definitely. 100%. So I'm interested to hear. So you talked a little bit about the resistance that you might find from different organisations.
I imagine when people come to you, they come to you because of the title of your business, because of what you represent on social media and what they see within your website and stuff. But do you ever get people that come to you and they want a speaker, but they don't want to push too far in terms of representation, so they want it to be quite pg and a little bit beige. They don't want it to be too controversial. And I'm using quotes again for that word.
Yeah, I mean, I would say what tends to happen, not tends to, but what can happen? And I guess I kind of. I'm okay with it because they are regular clients of mine and I know, again, I know that they kind of have, have a greater ethos of wanting to be more inclusive, but there'll be times where they'll say, we definitely, like, we really want some great representation on this event.
And so I'll give them a load of options and then they'll shortlist about three or four people and then they'll go for, you know, the white man. Because, and I say this like it doesn't happen often with one client, if you know what I mean. But it happens between all of my clients. There will be a time at which that happens. And so I have, I think about, okay, what do I do in this situation?
But also, you know, there's a part of me that, as an agency that talks about representation, I'm not going to say, well, I don't represent this type of person and I'm not going to find work for that type of person. I'll always stay true to, this is what we're trying to achieve and we want to bring about greater opportunities for everybody. And I think so long as I know that from my client, within their lifespan and their life cycle, that they stay true to that.
And then there will be occasions where they will ask for something else. And that's okay. Yeah. And I think that is important as well, isn't it, to make sure, like you say, that they've got a wider piece of work going around this. So you can see this on a kind of bird's eye view because you've been working with them for such a long time.
And actually, I think representation does sometimes include those more majority groups, as long as, of course, it's surrounding lots of different types of people on there as well. Absolutely. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on anything you predict coming up in the speaking industry. So have you got any ideas of any trends that are coming up within the diversity and inclusion space? Have you got any thoughts on, you know, how your agency might adapt to that as things change?
I know, obviously, budgets and elections and things like that make big, big differences to the work that we do, but I'm interested to hear if there's anything else that you foresee coming up or you've heard that's coming up or you've just spotted a trend. Yeah, it's really interesting. I think I've had lots of discussions with some of my regular clients and corporates this year to find out exactly that. What's high up on your agenda?
What are going to be the key things that you're wanting to talk about and what are the biggest challenges in your business? And Dei is very much still up there across all industries. And what I can see, which I think is really good, is kind of more like a deeper dive into the intersections and characteristics. In more. I would. Yeah, in more detail, I guess, like kind of more granular.
So that is like looking at black women, for example, and their challenges and experiences as opposed to just black people and, you know, same with disabilities. You know, again, you know, we kind of have people who are disabled and we have, you know, neurodivergence and they're both. And they're. They're both kind of separately clumped into one. So it's a. Yeah, it's taking more of a look into, actually, what does that look like within the spectrum of neurodivergency?
What are the kind of characteristics and challenges and contributions of each one? Similarly, with disability and accessibility beyond people who are in a wheelchair, and actually within that, looking more at people with chronic illnesses and making that less of a taboo for people to talk about in the workplace. So I definitely think anything to do with kind of people and culture is still an enigma that companies want to tap into.
And then, of course, you've got AI and how that affects everything. How it affects everything. What are the ethics in and around that and how we can kind of best utilise that while still making sure that we have enough jobs for everyone, making sure that it's human centred, but it's so broad because that covers every single industry. So, yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, this sounds like. And it's certainly the same sense we're getting from our clients as well.
It sounds like it's so closely connected to representation and under representation and of course, over representation, because we're talking about things that you and I find really familiar because we have experienced some things, but also we've spent our lifetime learning about these things and we continue to learn about them.
And people are now just starting to realise that, you know, diversity and inclusion in any form, whether it's training, whether it's speaking events, whether it's whatever is not unconscious bias. You know, there's an element, of course, to understand how our mind is made up about things, because that naturally is going to then connect representation.
That's why our tvs and our social media and lots of organisations are working much harder to increase representation, because they know when you can see yourself in different settings, that actually it's much more likely to represent who you are in your community, rather than this kind of historical idea of what it's like to be a woman, to be a black person, and then to be a black woman, to be a gay black woman, etc, etcetera. I do like that organisations are.
I guess I do know what? I don't care. I don't mind if people call me woke. Actually. I find it a compliment. I like that these organisations are waking up to this. And it's not just this. Well, if we sort out the gender pay gap, or even if we, you know, as a relatively progressive, which just seems wild in my head, that this is the sentence I'm about to say, have a racial pay gap identity there. So they're great, they're brilliant. But that, to me, is a real benchmark, that's a real baseline.
It's the same aspect of protected characteristics. Those are the basic aspects of human rights. We shouldn't be aiming for that, we should be aiming to get as far above that as we possibly can. And I think organisations are really starting to understand that now. But some of them are a bit scared to talk about these things, a, because they're terrified of getting cancelled, terrified of getting something wrong, worried they're going to make it worse.
All of the reasons why they haven't had these conversations in the first place, some of them aren't really valid reasons in my mind, just because actually, you can treat your employees like adults, you can create these safe spaces to have these conversations. But I think also you've got that idea that actually politics play such a big part and especially at the moment in the UK and the US. And of course, the US massively influences what we do in the UK, regardless of whether people that are not.
So I think that there's an aspect there that is playing out where you can see the two main sides in UK politics and also us politics, which are actually using Dei as a bit of a way to win some of those votes that they didn't normally get and actually divide people even more. So I can understand why organisations are feeling a little bit apprehensive to push forward with a lot of their DEi work.
But I love that you're finding, and I'm definitely finding with some organisations we're working with then actually the ones that are progressing and the ones that are pushing forward with their work, a, they're smart enough to know that you've got to be consistent in this stuff because it will cycle back round where it will be a hot topic again in a few months and lots of these other organisations are going to be left behind and b, they can see the benefit of doing this.
So they tend to be a little bit more progressive. And I open, I think, to talking about things like intersectionality and really starting to get to the root of where this came from and how we can utilise that to change the future. Definitely, yeah. They understand the need to future proof their businesses.
And, you know, I think there are a lot of people who kind of have protected characteristics, who are leaving their industries and starting their own business and, you know, a lot of kind of industry leaders that I've spoken to recognise that and they know that it's crucial that they create better opportunities and environments for people, not just to bring them in, but to sustain them. And I think, you know, especially Gen Z are super, super wise to this and they are the.
They're kind of creating their own opportunities and they're asking for what they want outright and it's not enough to be paid a great salary. Like, the culture and the genuine values are really, really important and you can't pretend there's nowhere to hide. People see right through that stuff and Gen Z are on the mark and Jen Alfa are going to be even, even slicker with that. Their access to information is so much more than us millennials and baby boomers and things like that.
The other thing I think that organisations are realising as well is that the retirement age is getting longer and longer. People are working for much longer because they have no choice. Cost of living crisis, so many different things that they're going to have so many different generations working together. We've already got five generations working together now it could end up being six. It's just. It's quite wild to think about.
But that in itself means that longevity of service is actually really important and it's something that definitely Gen Z have broken because they're like, actually, I don't want to work in a forever job. That's kind of a boomer thing, a millennial thing. Slowly the millennials kind of stepped away from it.
But as a general rule, I'm probably one of a handful of my friends outside of my business, friends that doesn't have a permanent job and hasn't been in that same organisation for 10, 15, 20 years. So it's very real for organisations, that longevity piece.
Okay, so I'm really interested, just as we finish off, I'm really interested to hear if you've got any tips or any suggestions, something that is going to help organisations listen to this, just to really start to think about how do they represent. Sorry, how do they increase their representation of historically marginalised voices.
Yeah, I think just kind of going back to some of the things that we've talked about in this conversation, it's firstly, not being afraid to do so and prioritising it, understanding that representation is a priority, you know, from a. From a kind of human case, but also as a business and to kind of sustain your business and credibility, it's super, super important. But, yeah, I mean, there are businesses like ours and there are, you know, there are, there are networks, we have.
We have so much information now, it's almost. And it's almost kind of not okay. It's not okay anymore to just sort of say, oh, I couldn't find anyone or I don't know anyone or my industry is typically, you know, not, not that. Not that way balanced. Yeah. Like work. Work with, work with suppliers, work with people who, you know, who are already doing what you want to do, you know, increase your.
Build your own network and, you know, if you kind of got that this far already as an organisation, chances are you're pretty resourceful anyway, so, you know, if you just prioritise it, then you can, you can make it happen. Yeah. And actually you. When you first start on this journey, if you are a smaller organisation, you don't have to spend lots of money to do this. You know, you've probably got people in your organisation that can help you with this.
So it's about creating those safe spaces for them to do that. And then when you do get to a position where you're like, actually we want to bring some external people in that are experts in whatever subjects they're experts in, but actually truly representing the communities that we either serve as a kind of organisation that sells a product or maybe we're even in the third sector and those sorts of things as well.
And that's when we bring in people like Lauralee, obviously, and Spectrum Speakers and of course us. Hello. If you want some learning. So yeah, it doesn't always have to cost an arm and a leg and I think it's a layered approach. Right. You start with anything, something small, just start somewhere and then slowly build that up and I think it becomes much more strategic then. Absolutely, absolutely. It's a muscle, isn't it?
In the same way that you kind of learn to do a specific aspect of your job and you get better and better at it the more you do it. It's exactly the same with Dei and representation, you know, it starts with awareness and then you follow through by doing it, by taking action and yeah, that action becomes inspired and it just gets easier and more natural. Amazing. Thank you so much for spending this time with me. I wish we had 3 hours more to talk. We can continue after this, but maybe.
Maybe no one else ought to listen to us for another. Yeah, good point, good point. Maybe this is just enough for them. But listen, that was wonderful. I loved hearing your insights on that and I can't wait for us to connect again on another project. I think it'll be really wonderful. Me too. Thank you for having me. Thanks Lauralee. Speak to you soon. Cheers. Bye. What a fantastic conversation there with Lauralee. I absolutely loved our conversations.
There's something really special when we get to hear about somebody who's worked in an industry all of their lives and their careers, and actually they're able to then bring a really fantastic and intuitive perspective to that industry by setting up their own organisation.
I particularly liked when Lauralee explained why she has an intrinsic and kind of intentional separation of representation and diversity and really about that connection, of why she decided to set the organisation up in the first place.
But I really love the way she was talking about normalising representation, really thinking about that vulnerability and really thinking about that integrity and that consistency of representation and that importance when it comes to true inclusion and belonging, not just in organisations of course, but throughout different parts of the human experience too. We hope you enjoyed that. We'll see you on the next one.