Welcome to our newest podcast. Today we are talking to the incredible Grace, who is somebody that I've known for quite some time. We've worked together on various projects, and now she is in the middle of setting up an amazing organization and lots of other really fantastic things that she's working on as well.
We're going to have a really good conversation today all about what it's like to be a woman in the workplace, to really have to hide parts of your identity, to maybe even adapt the way that you behave, especially when you're in the senior roles. We're also going to have a really good conversation about how intersectionality can really play a piece in the way that we build our careers and the way that we come across in the work that we do.
So without further Ado, grab a cover, settle in and enjoy the podcast. Hi Grace. I feel very proud to say that we are not just people that get to work with each other and do different business together, but we're actually friends now.
So I would love to have a really good conversation with you today about what it's like to be a woman in the working world, what it's like to be a black woman in the working world, how we might need to adapt the way we are and adapt our kind of core traits if you like to be able to fit in, but also what we've learned from that and how we've evolved.
Before we get started, though, I would just love for our listeners to get to know you just a little bit more because you've had a really great career so far. So I'd love to hear a little bit about your experience and then where you're at now because you're doing some really cool things. So over to you. No pressure. Then I've had a really broad career and I'm really pleased about it. A lot of people are kind of like, oh my gosh, where is your career taken?
You I started my career in recruitment and then decided that actually I like helping people rather than just making a business money. So I decided to go into welfare to work, which was essentially me supporting disadvantaged individuals into work. So it ticked all the boxes in terms of what I was good at. I quickly realized that I love talking to people and I'm very good at that and building relationships.
I moved into stakeholder engagement for welfare to work organizations and then started to actually coach leaders within organizations to develop in their own careers. And my career over the last year has just taken a dramatic turn as a result of kind of personal health concerns last year and just feeling that need to find purpose in my being. So I've moved into working for myself. So I'm now a consultant. I support organizations to change and to become better than they are, I hope.
I'm also an entrepreneur, so I own a jewelry brand as well as currently working on a new opportunity that I'm hoping will be a really purposeful social enterprise. We connected quite early on because we had similar values. I think that's what happens at work. And we were talking really recently about the idea that women in careers, especially when they get to very senior levels, feel the need to change parts of themselves, maybe to make ourselves less threatening in some people's eyes.
I want to talk about that a little bit because we kind of started getting into the conversation in a bit of detail when we were working together the other day, and I was like, no, hold that thought. Let's record this because this is so interesting. So I'd love to get your thoughts on that in general. I think when we got together, we always do this anyway. We start basically trying to take on the world and change it right then and there.
But I think one of the key things that came out of the conversation was just around how we become who we are based on our experiences and some of the challenges that women, irrespective of race, but particularly black women as well, have within the workplace and how that can sometimes lead to us acting in a way that's not true to who we are as a result of feeling the pressures of needing to conform or needing to be non threatening or needing to be liked.
Essentially, I think is the biggest driver. Everyone just wants to be liked. And I think sometimes as career women that are driven and really want to achieve things, you sometimes feel like, actually, I can't be my full, authentic self because some people won't like me as a result of that because they think she's trying to get above her station. And I think as women, we struggle with that a lot. So that was definitely what kickstarted the idea for today's discussion.
Yeah, I love that. That's so true. We can't help but try and put the world together. I'm starting to feel like that might be me as well, because it's definitely a common theme amongst lots of my working relationships. You said there a little bit about how we might have to be less threatening.
I'd just be really interested to hear why you think it is that people want to make women feel like we're being threatening when we're being assertive or when we're perhaps very confident in the idea that we're talking about. My view is that the best way to disarm someone is to attack them. And I feel like that's the reason that people do that, if I'm honest, because how do I disarm you and stop you from doing what you're doing?
So I'm going to tell you that you are or you're doing something that you're not, and I know it's going to upset you and he's going to throw you off track. And I think that's why people do it. If I'm honest, it's the easiest way to distract someone from their goal. And I think it's playing dirty. If I'm honest, because you then feel the need to defend yourself as opposed to just genuinely doing what you're there to do, which is to be great.
I'm nodding because there are a couple of words that have just come into my head, as you've been saying, that one of them is gaslighting, which I don't think well, most of the time people don't do intentionally, of course, but I think there's something around that. And also there's that aspect that women are emotional. I'm doing air quotes for the listeners. Women are emotional.
So if we respond to that accusation of us being aggressive or threatening or whatever, it might be because we're being confident and assertive and we know our skills and our abilities, we can't possibly respond. We're kind of stuck in between because if we respond, we're emotional. We're playing up to the stereotype of a woman. If we don't, then we're not really standing up for ourselves and we're allowing that. So it's kind of a rock in a hard place. Exactly.
It's interesting as well, because I think that's one of the major questions is do gaslighters know their gas lighting or when people Gaslight, do they know they're doing it? And I feel like we need to create this term in the same way we've got unconscious buyers. Maybe we need to talk about unconscious gas lighting and how you make yourself aware of when you're doing it and try not to.
I think gas lighting is disgusting, but I think as women, we experience it in every field, whether that be in relationships, whether that be in our careers. And like you said, because of those stereotypes that are placed against us, it's just so disarming. It literally is just wrong. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think that there is something around those gender norms and the stereotypes that society puts on each of us.
I was having a really interesting conversation on another podcast with this amazing company called Taylor Education, who work on Sex Reeducation and all of those sorts of discussions. And we were talking about how dangerous gender norms can be in every type of relationship. And I think the idea then the question around, does the Gaslighter know that they're gaslighting is probably the same question as does the person being Gaslight know that they're being Gaslight?
And I think in a lot of situations, especially at work, because we're trying to show that we're capable, we're trying to reach our potential, we're trying to work really hard and show that we're committed, do all of these amazing things whilst also not being to this and to that and too emotional and this. But also we need to make sure that we're nurturing people because that's the female stereotype, especially when you're a senior leader. So it's just such an imbalance.
And it's so difficult to figure out. What am I supposed to be as a leader? What is society telling me what I'm being and actually what do I want to be? But how can I utilize that to be able to move forward? It's exhausting. I can describe it as yeah, definitely. I can think of so many situations where I have been working and we were talking about this a little bit around the idea of women being oversexualized at work.
And I've definitely, obviously I won't mention the organizational names, but some of the previous organizations I've worked for as an employee, I've heard the most derogatory comments about myself that senior leaders have said and it's got back to me because I straighten my hair or I wear lipstick. It's just to me I'm like, I just want to feel like I look good. It's not any reflection on my work and actually that's not a place for you to have that conversation.
So there's just some real traits that sneak into the career space. So for people perhaps that aren't aware of this or they don't think that this happens, it's very real. What are your thoughts then on the idea that women can be oversexualized in the workplace? Unfortunately it happens every day and it happens all the time.
I remember a few years back when I started to climb the career ladder and I'd been put on a leadership development program by my organization and I was allocated an executive coach as part of that and I absolutely loved him. Such a great guy. And we ended up talking about the HRD and just how in awe of her I was and how I really saw her as someone that I looked up to and that I found her quite intimidating. And my executive coach basically said she finds you really intimidating.
Now at the time I was a junior manager. This woman was a HRD. She's climb like various steps to get to where she was. She was gold as far as I was concerned. And I said to him, how can she be intimidated by me? That's crazy. And he said, well, look at you, you're tall, you're confident, you're beautiful, and you dress really sexy. Those weren't his exact words. But I take pride in how I look, particularly at work. For me, it's really important to look the part.
And I am tall, I'm slim, and this is going to sound really arrogant, but it's not arrogant. And again, this is me being very female by preempting what I'm about to say with this. But anyway, so when I wear clothes, I like to look good and people notice me because of my height and because of the way I look. So when he said that, it broke my heart because again, it was a situation in which I am being seen as a threat to something that I cannot change.
He said what he said and then went on to say, I think it would be a good idea for you to dim down the way that you dress and maybe not dress as nicely for work. And for anyone listening, you might be thinking you're probably wearing mini skirts and crop tops to work and fishnet tights. I wasn't okay. I was wearing power suits and I was looking the parts, and they weren't in crazy colors. They were your traditional black, Navy, blue, and Gray.
But when he said that to me, my heart was broken because I thought, I love the way that I look. I show up to do it. And to me, doing it is having impact, making change, performing in my role. And when he said that, I felt like he was essentially saying, I need you to dim your light so that other people can shine. And I don't think anyone should have to do that. Women are definitely oversexualized. I know that it has happened a lot in my career.
I don't know whether I've been fortunate or unfortunate, but I don't ever directly hear it. So people historically haven't been confident enough to say inappropriate things to me necessarily. But I'll hear from other people what has been said. So the guys in the pub might have a few comments about what they'd like to do to Grace or ridiculous things like that. Or the MD may have said or make sure Grace is in that meeting. I want a bit of eye candy, and things like that are inappropriate at work.
If you want to have a non professional relationship, let's talk about it. Outside of work, I don't expect to be the subject of conversations with colleagues behind my back or to my face. And I don't think it's appropriate for any woman or any person to experience that. But unfortunately, women are subjected to it significantly more. And also men are given a pass to do it because they're men, which I think that time is gone now. Everyone's a bit smarter. We know better now.
But unfortunately, it does keep happening. And I think my message is to kind of any woman who feels like she wants to look the part for work is keep doing you call people out on the inappropriateness. It's not okay. We won't be gaslit. We won't be made to feel unreasonable. It's about actually, let's be seen as equal to you. Yeah, we're here to do a job. Let us do our job. We don't sexualize you and rate you in any way. And there are a couple of things that you just said that made my jaw drop.
And I've definitely heard things like this before. But it's only when you really get to grips with the sexual harassment that you have experienced over many, many different ways, in lots of different times in our lives, which we have. And we were talking about this last week with some other women. There's something about that comment in the pub, and I know it was just like an example, but even the wording what we would like to do to Grace.
So it's almost like you don't get a say in it, you don't get to enjoy any of this. And again, I keep coming back to the podcast that we just released with Gareth where we talk about consent and the language in which we use is so important. So that to me just rings massive alarm bells in the way that those men were talking to each other and allowing each other. So whilst we definitely need to speak up, other men need to do that to each other.
They need to say, this is not appropriate, this is not right. We need to be holding each other to account. I think that in the same way that we no longer have or I'd like to think we no longer have space for overt racism and we will also call out covert racism. I think we should be doing the same for inappropriate comments around the way someone looks or sexuality or sexualization.
I think the problem that we have is that school playground mentality that still exists, whether that be in the staff room or in the pub or wherever, where men feel like, even if I disagree with this, all of the guys are going along with it, so I'm just going to go along with it. I also find it hilarious as well, because even hearing comments like, oh, what I'd like to do to Grace, half of the people that I know have said things like that, wouldn't dare say anything like that to my face.
So it's kind of like, why are you even saying something that you yourself know not to be true, but it's about the intent behind it as well. The intent is to objectify and to diminish and to remove respect for that individual. And I think that's what really needs to be looked at is what is your intent behind that? And subsequently fixing yourself and fixing up, as we say, and stop saying that. Oh, wow, yeah, intent. It's so funny.
I've just been taught I've just had a workshop with one of my clients and we were just talking about intentional aspects of inclusive leadership. So it's so interesting to hear it in a slightly different way. Probably the opposite way, I guess, because a lot of the intent behind comments like that don't come from a conscious way of thinking. They come from a gender stereotyped way of thinking. As a general rule, you also mentioned their respect, and I think that's a massive thing.
Certainly it's been for me, and my career is trying to find that balance between how do I stay true to my values but also gain the respect that I deserve for the good work that I'm doing and the outputs that I'm giving and the KPIs that are increasing because of the work that I'm doing. What's been your experience with the way you might have had to maybe pick up male style traits or using air quotes there to be taken seriously in the work that you're doing. I am actually an Alpha female, period.
So for me, male stereotypes at work and in my personal life, in terms of how I organize my home and my schedule, they are very Alpha, so they are traditionally masculine traits. Anyway, I actually find that for me, I've had to do the opposite in the workplace. I actually do this in relationships as well, which is quite funny to discuss it with my therapist.
But I find myself reverting to type B in the workplace initially to allow people to feel like I am not a threat and to feel like they are open to receiving me and to letting me in and to allowing me to move forward within the organization. And then once I'm comfortable, my type A comes out and they get to know kind of the real Grace. So for me, it's actually been the complete opposite.
And I think that's why this conversation is really important because dimming your light doesn't necessarily always entail being the male instead of the female. Sometimes it's actually being overly female in terms of behaviors in the workplace to feel like you're then being allowed in. And that's definitely been my experiences. I've had to do the complete opposite. That's really interesting because I have had a bit of a different experience to that.
So I've worked with lots of really impressive, really influential and inspiring women throughout my career. Even very early on when I was managing bars and stuff, when I was in my late teens. And I remember looking up to them and thinking, yeah, good on you, you're incredible. But when I reflected back on it, they were behaving in an extremely male stereotype way, not necessarily in the Alpha female mindset, but I remember thinking, well, that just didn't fit with me.
It just didn't make sense to me. So I was kind of a bit lost in the way that I was leading and managing different departments and stuff like that. And then a little bit further on in my career, I met someone. There were two directors in this organization that were women. One of the directors was super harsh, super kind of straightforward with the information. There was no niceties around things. And her team were really scared of her. It was just one of those types of environments.
She got the results, not sustainably, but she definitely got the results in the first place. But the cost of all the psychological safety, the team, they were definitely members of the team that had to dim their lights, as you say, because they had to kind of hold themselves back a little bit because they were terrified of her. In contrast, my director, that was my line manager, they approached things in a completely different way.
So yes, they were straightforward and yes, they were very good at articulating their points. And that was a really important message that I learned quite early on. They also had some of the feminine traits that I naturally have. Now, of course, they're probably gender stereotypes has probably been what I've been conformed to be over the years. But there are things I like about myself, so I like that I am a good listener to people.
I like that I try to support and help people, but also I've got these other traits which are I'm also someone that just wants to get the work done. So that's a nice little chat and let's get on with it kind of thing. I'm here for you if you need me, but I also want you to work autonomously. So this director really highlighted to me that you didn't have to change who you were to be able to be this really powerful and inspiring businesswoman or director or whatever it might be.
But it was really interesting the contrast between the two, because I remember thinking before my director started, I was looking at this other director and I thought, I don't want to be like that. Is that the only way I'm going to be able to get to director level? Because I just don't want to do that. I'm not interested in changing who I am to be able to do that. So I find it really interesting.
We've had very different experiences, but I think the nuance here, the thing between us is that actually we stay true to who we are. Yeah, I think what you said is really interesting as well, actually, and I've never thought about it. Most of my experience has been being managed by men. So I've traditionally been managed by men who have required me to behave a certain way in order for them not to feel threatened.
And I remember my first manager who I absolutely love, but he was also my first experience of the professional world, and he was very old school in terms of his view of men versus women. He used language that you probably wouldn't hear in the workplace today, and he would make comments about how people look and how you should look as a woman coming into work and what was appropriate and what wasn't appropriate based on his own view, as opposed to the professional view.
So his view is essentially the view of what the guys are saying in the pub. So if I hear anyone say anything sexualized about you, I'm going to come and let you know you need to change what you're wearing, as opposed to I'm going to let them know that they shouldn't be saying those things. So my mindset around what I needed to be in the workplace was based off that very early experience and also progressive experiences being managed by men after that.
The manager I described now, I absolutely love him. He was my favorite manager of all time and definitely supported me to become the success that I feel I am today.
But when you think about some of those early lessons and things that you learn quite early, but also it's interesting what you said around the manager that you really didn't want to be like and the manager that you really did feel like you could see yourself being because all I hear in there is that the perfect leader is essentially masculine and feminine. So they have those masculine traits where they can get things done or they're viewed as masculine traits.
Anyway, we all know that women are the ones that get things done. But that view about this is the KPI. This is what we need to achieve this month. We're going to get there, and this is how we're going to get there as well as are you okay? You don't seem yourself. Do you want to spend some time just having a tool? Do you want to come in a little bit later? Those kind of nurturing attributes are traditionally seen as feminine. And I have had some amazing male managers like that.
Unfortunately, I have not had positive experiences with female line managers that I've had. I've not had particularly nurturing leadership in that way by direct line managers necessarily. And that's not everyone. But the negative experiences that I've had with leaders have been with the females that I've been managed by two in particular, one that really still traumatizes me to this day. Wow. Yeah. I mean, that's really interesting.
It does bring me on to a point that I wanted to talk about as well, which is around that intersectionality piece. We're two very professional women that are running our own businesses. We're doing some really great things in our careers. And that may not have been the natural route for us had we kind of listened to the naysayers, whether it was our teachers or early line managers and people like that.
But I do think that there's something in my experience as a white woman going up the ranks and your experience as a black woman going up the ranks that naturally there would have been different challenges. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on this is such a hard question because I don't want to put the onus on to you with regards to let's fix all of the covert racism that's happening in the workplace.
But if there was like a piece of advice that you could give a white line manager, perhaps they are a director or something like that and they're managing younger black women, what is it that you would have liked to have happened for you? And maybe that could be a bit of a piece of advice for other people. So I did the Landmark Forum years ago.
And one of the things that one of the speakers said that was quite contentious at the time that I actually carried with me was that racism is a story that has been created by people essentially. And I think the challenge that we have is that racism is a story that has been created, but a lot of people believe and for me, I would encourage senior leaders that are white women potentially managing or coaching or mentoring black women, young black women is forget that story. It doesn't exist.
We are the same. So spend that time getting to know the individual, find the things that you have in common, and find the things that actually will motivate you to support that woman, to get to where she needs to get to and see yourself in that person, because there is so much that we have in common. And if we put ourselves in each other's shoes, there's so much more we would do for each other.
I think there's that piece around being on top of the mountain and holding your hand out to help somebody up. Just do that. And it's interesting when you kind of started the introduction to that question, I just had this image of walking uphill in a Hurricane and fighting the winds to get to the top. I definitely feel like that's what it felt like at points in my career when it's been about trying to progress. It's literally like climbing a mountain in a Hurricane.
Let's just see each other as we're meant to be seen and forget the story. I love that. And I think it's so interesting as well because I think a lot of people will be like, well, I'm not racist. And I of course, no, I don't think like that. And that's absolutely not what we're saying. It's about let's start seeing each other as equals. I think when women are ambitious in their careers already, there's a bit of a pushback with that.
If you add to that the stereotype of a black woman being ambitious and telling people what she wants and what she is going to work to get, you've got like the shoulders up of the people, then you add to that the fact that when people are very comfortable in their situation, they're surrounded by people that look and act the same as they do is a very comfortable place for us to be. They feel really threatened when people want to come and take that away from them.
Again, I'm using air quotes for the listener because we know ultimately that everybody wins if we can support each other and especially women supporting other women. There is something about pulling each other up. And it's really funny. When I set the business up a few years ago, there was just an enormous amount of support from people. There was an enormous amount of what can I do? How can I help you? All of that sort of thing.
But there were also people that I thought were going to be real allies to my business and really support me and do things to help me because I had done that with them. When they started their career. And of course, that wasn't the reason I did it, but it would have been lovely to have had it back. But there were a couple of people and it was so baffling. And I only really got my head around it recently.
There are a couple of people that it was almost like they were threatened that I was going to do this. Like I was going to somehow take something away from them. And then they actually closed themselves off and they closed some opportunities off for me to be able to grow the business in that particular area. And I just remember thinking it was absolutely mind boggling.
And then one of these people came back to me about a year ago and said, oh, I know you're working with this particular client and this and this and this. Do you think you can introduce me because I'm doing this work. Now, had I been petty and not been trying to really genuinely improve our society, I would have been like, I'm so sorry I can't introduce you to anyone.
But instead I was like, of course, because I'm not going to lessen my values because you decided that I was threatening you in some way because of my ambition. And I think that's how it can work when you get to a very senior level where there may be one more level above. And it's like they've got to push the women down. They've got to push the black women down as well. Because if we come up, we're going to challenge their thinking. We're going to potentially change the way that
they work, and they just don't like it. Definitely. I think even when you look at change programs, people are traditionally averse to change. We don't have change managers for no reason. They're there because we know change is uncomfortable and we need people to help us get comfortable with it. That's just a really important point that I'd like to make is that for me, the majority of racism starts with conscious bias that was previously unconscious.
But you now know you have it but decide you don't want to get rid of it because it has served you. And I think that my biggest kind of call to action to women in the workplace, irrespective of race, would be now that you have that awareness, do something with it. I'm a black woman. I grew up. All of my family or most of my family are black. I am used to seeing people that look like me at home. However, as soon as I step outside, the majority don't look like me.
So I've been required to understand different cultures and to engage with different people. And some people haven't had to do that, which isn't your fault. But what we're asking is that now that you're in a space, if you're in the workplace with people that don't look like you, the onus is on you to learn about those people and to see those people in the same way that you see the people that you're used to seeing all the time, and it is unconscious, you're not used to it.
But I think a big part of changing the narrative and doing things differently is being aware of that discomfort or that aversion to what can I say here or how can I Act here? Because a lot of the time women like to keep black women at a certain level, because it means they don't have to engage with them on a day to day, because I don't actually know what I'd say to you.
Sometimes it's as small as I don't know how to pronounce your name, so I'm not going to hire you or I'm not going to promote you because then I have to say your name all the time and I don't know how to that makes me uncomfortable having to learn it. So I'm not going to do it, essentially. And it sounds ridiculous to hear, and it is ridiculous in the same way I heard this one day that in the same way people take the time to learn how to pronounce. I can't even say it's chavovsky or something.
Tikovsky Tchaikovsky, that's the one. In the same way we spend the time, because if you look at the way that name is spelled, it is not how it's pronounced. Okay. But we take the time to learn how to say it, even though I just embarrassed myself by not being able to say it. But if you can take the time to learn a name like that, you can take the time to learn how to say Tammy Topper. It's not difficult take the time and feel great knowing that you did take the time.
And as a result of that, your workforce and your team doesn't look like you. Yeah. And ultimately, we know that when there's diversity, there's so many statistics around this, we really don't need to breed the business case here. But the statistics say your business or your organization, whether it's a charity or whatever, will succeed, it's so much more likely to be sustainable. You're going to attract even greater talent.
You're going to be able to make it last a really long time and make some big differences with your product or your service, whatever it is. So, yes, we have to have different looking and acting and thinking people throughout the organization. And every time it's really interesting work from lots of different industries at the moment. But there's a particular industry that I'm working with, and they say, well, we've got lots of women on the board. I'm like, that's great.
But everyone's white and actually what's happening in between. So let's have a look at your lower levels and actually your entry level roles. You've got a fantastic mix of diversity. It's really reflective of your population. And we're talking about neurodiversity, race, age, gender, all of these wonderful things that make us so wonderfully different. But what happens is they're not progressing through the organization.
And that really clicks onto that thing that you were just saying is that I'm uncomfortable. I don't know how to be around somebody. That's very different to me. And therefore, I'm going to put invisible barriers in place. I'm going to have particular policies.
I'm going to have certain questions in recruitment spaces and things like that that are going to mean that it's very difficult for this person to be able to move up, even if they are capable and they have the potential to grow into that role. So I think it's a very real challenge, and it's really hard for people to deny.
They do deny it, don't get me wrong, but it's a very difficult thing to deny once you've got all of the facts and the data in front of you to prove that what we're talking about here is a very real challenge in the working world. Absolutely.
It's interesting as well, because I think one of my call to actions would be when we think about our differences and when we think about equality and diversity and what that entails and what that includes, we're thinking about sexuality, we're thinking about race, et cetera.
If you look at how people prioritize those different groups, I always find that really interesting because the point you made around our senior leadership team or our board is really diverse because there's women in it, but they're all white women.
If you then go and look at some of those organizations kind of EDI statements or diversity and inclusion statements and they talk about what they prioritize, you're traditionally find that race is the last one because it's the most uncomfortable still, which is so bizarre because when you think about it, there were black people in the world before kind of sexuality was even discussed or accepted.
But black people, Brown people, people of ethnic minorities, when it comes to dealing with diversity and inclusion, they are still the lowest on the totem pole in terms of let's focus on that. And I think for me, that's a massive call to action. If it makes you uncomfortable still, that's the one you need to prioritize first. Everything else will be easy once you tackle that, which isn't to reduce any of the other differences that we have at all.
But it's just to say that statistics show, evidence show and organizations, websites and diversity statements show that race is still the issue that people find the most difficult to deal with, and therefore they put it at the bottom of their priority list and it shouldn't be there. Yeah. Wow. It's so interesting because I often work with a lot of organizations and they want to just focus on gender.
And I think the reason they want to focus on that for them because the conversation has been going on for such a long time, it's a lot less uncomfortable than some of the other conversations. Then you add LGBTQ plus, that's a little bit more comfortable because of the flags and the fact that this, that and the other and the laws and stuff. And you get further down, and you're so right.
When you get to race, people just shrivel up into themselves, especially white people, because there's a lot of shame attached to it. We're very aware of the colonizations that we did. We're very aware of how we are now still benefiting from those in lots of different ways. Some people are.
Some people aren't, of course, but even those of us that are aware of it, it's still like, I still find it uncomfortable, but I know it's really important to talk about, because if you don't, nothing will ever change. It will continue to be the same. I've got one example I just want to share with you. So it's an old organization I used to work with. I was leading the DNI project, and it was all the different workstreams.
And I had to go back to the Exec and ask for some budget so that we could start doing some work around learning, around awareness, just around all sorts of really great events where we could really start to wake everybody up to the idea that not everybody has the same experience in life. And I remember going into the meeting, I can visualize it exactly now, going into the boardroom, sitting down, talking to the Executor. And I knew them quite well.
I was pretty well respected in that company, and I started talking about some statistics. So I started off with gender because I thought, let's ease them in. Gender is nice and easy. People like talking about this. They feel like since the gender pay gaps come in, it's all sorted. So obviously there's a hell of a lot more work to do, but they're way more comfortable. So I started talking about that, and they all got involved in the conversation.
They physically like their body language was involved. The second I pulled up the slide where we were talking about race and we were talking about the visibility throughout the different layers of the organization, and I was trying to highlight that there's not representation throughout, and clearly there's a reason. And their body language completely just went in on themselves. They sat back, their shoulders sloped. Everyone was really quiet. And it's so interesting.
If people are finding things comfortable, we're not moving forward. We all know that. I'm a learning professional. If we are in our comfort zones, we are learning the bare minimum. We're not empowering ourselves to really push forward. If we take ourselves so far out of our comfort zone, it might be too far. So there's like a sweet spot in the middle where we can gently nudge people to have these conversations.
And that's a big part of the work that I do with my clients is create those spaces where those conversations can be had. But it was just really interesting when you're saying that. And I think representation is so important in different careers, in different industries, at senior levels. And as soon as people start to realize that, I think we'll be able to really snowball this and move forward. But there's so much work to do. But yeah, that uncomfortable piece is essential.
It is definitely one of the things I'd love to get from you just because I think one of the reasons that people like this podcast is that they get some really helpful tips. And there's definitely been a couple that have come through. But I'd love to know if there's any advice you would give to a younger woman coming into the working world and how can they stay true to themselves when they're being told whether it's consciously or unconsciously to behave in a slightly different way?
So really challenging one, because I feel like as a woman in particular, when you're entering your profession or your career, there is always that concern of rocking the boat. And I think the concern is valid. I always think it's good to be self aware and to be kind and to add value in this space that you're in. But I also think that women's intuition isn't a myth.
If it feels uncomfortable, it feels unsafe, or it feels contrary to your belief system and to what drives you and gives you purpose, then it's not for you. And I think one of the things that this generation have that is a massive luxury that I didn't have growing up is social media and the ease of travel. There are so many different careers out there and different things that you can do. And I say this again and again to people is spend the time identifying what genuinely makes your soul sing.
It sounds romantic, but it's true. And I'm only doing that now at the age of 38. But don't get involved in a cattle race that doesn't serve you, find what suits you, find what drives you and find what you enjoy, and then work out how to make money from it. And I heard a millionaire say that a while back, but it's so true.
I wish I had done that and I wish someone had told me to do that, but that would be my biggest tip is take the time to identify what it is that's right for you and then really focus on how you're going to get that. Yeah. Wow. That idea of the listening to your intuition into your gut. There's definitely been situations where I haven't done that and it's ended really badly. I was only there for a few months. I had one role where I was in a very senior position.
I was an employee at the time, and I had been warned off the interview by a couple of my HR friends who were in different industries, but they'd heard about the MD of this company. And they were like, don't do it. Trust me, you regret it. And I was like, It's fine, I can handle it. I'm tough. So I went to the interview and it was just I mean, there were red flags, there were sirens. It was so obvious that I shouldn't have gone there, but I just convinced myself that it was okay.
I pushed that feeling down. And one of the questions that I was asking, which I can guarantee hardly any men have ever been asked, this question was, okay, so are you in a relationship? And I think I was about 29 at the time. I was like, no, I'm not in a relationship. And he was like, right? Because I need someone that's very committed to this. And I was like, that's fine. He's like, but you're about to turn 30. Are you going to have children soon?
Because I need to know, literally, those were exactly the words that he used. And I remember feeling really angry at the time, but just saying, no, I'm not planning on having children anytime soon. I'm very committed to my career at the moment. Yada, yada, yada. And I left and I did get the job and I worked there for five months. And it made me so ill that I had no choice but to leave, not just mentally or but physically.
I was constantly unwell because of the ridiculous pressure that person is putting on me and just the disgusting culture and the way in which they disregarded the human beings in their business. Sadly, it is still a thriving business. But I do think that that person has moved away from that role. I think the shareholders had to remove them. But yeah, listen to your intuition. Probably the best piece of advice. I wish someone had said that to me when I was about 21.
Speaking about 21, what do you wish you knew when you were 21 that you know now that could have helped you to be really true to yourself throughout your career? There's a lot that I didn't know when I was to anyone. I'm not sure if any of them. Yeah, I don't know if there's anything that I wish I knew that would have necessarily changed the direction of my career. I think it's more things that I'd have liked to know earlier.
I think going all the way back to a secondary school for me, I had an incident with maths teacher at the time who hated me. And I went to a brilliant school in Victoria loved it. She hated me, basically. I was in the top set for maths, and that really bothered her. I was also the girl that didn't stand for teachers calling their students stupid or just being nasty. And she was very nasty and she did it at every lesson. And I'd always stand up to her.
So I'd always get sent to the deputy heads office and one day another girl in the class had a fountain pen. So back in the day we used to use these amazing Lammy fountain pens and she was flicking her ink at the back of the teacher's dress. And by the time the lesson had finished, the teacher's dress was basically a Dalmatian design and it had originally been like a beige dress. And she found out about it after the lesson.
No one told her and she found out when she went to the staff room and she blamed it on me and I didn't even own a fountain pen, she blamed it on me. And basically because I've been sent to the Deputy heads office so often, she essentially said, now she's flicking in on me, I can't have her in my class anymore. Now, bearing in mind I was only ever sent to the Deputy heads office for challenging her on her rudeness to her students and the deputy had never told me off.
She just always sent me back to say sorry, but I was moved down a set because this teacher essentially refused to work with me anymore. And that meant that I could only sit the intermediate paper for maths, which meant I could only achieve a B grade instead of an A, which is what I would have needed to go on to be a math teacher, which is what I wanted to do before kind of when I started my career.
It turned out that actually you can't do your A levels if you can't do a math level with a B grade at math GCSE. And I think that's what I would have liked to know is just that awareness a bit early on around the decisions that individuals make and the impact that that can have on your path. I have no regrets about not being a math teacher anymore because doing math homework with my daughter is torture. It's just about being given the choice. And I think for me that's the only thing.
But I think for other people it's just about having that awareness early on, being aware of what you are entitled to and it's not looking at entitled to as in entitlement. It's about actually what is everyone else given access to that I should also be given access to and doing everything you can to get that access. I think that's the biggest thing for me. This also comes back to one of the earlier comments you made about standing at the top of the mountain and lifting other women up.
That teacher did not do that. Interestingly. That teacher could have been the reason that you gave up on yourself, but fortunately you didn't. I had a teacher. I'm not going to mention their name. They still live in my hometown. Actually, I had a teacher that hated me because mine was a little bit different. I wasn't calling her out, I was just a bit naughty. So I kind of got where she didn't like me, but I was naughty because I was misunderstood.
And the teachers that took the time to understand me really made a difference in the way that I work now. They made a difference in the way that I run my business, even. But this teacher, Interestingly, I went to College, dropped out and started working. And I was working in a bakery when I was about 17. And at the time, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I kind of wanted to go back to College. And this teacher had walked in.
So this teacher had sent me out every class I had in year 1011 of this particular subject. This teacher had kicked me out. So I basically learned nothing at all about this subject and had just gone and probably smoked on the playground or done something naughty because I was quite naughty. But she came into this bakery that I was working at, and it was just cringe.
I don't know if you've ever had to serve someone you really don't like in the service industry, whether it's restaurant or whatever, but I went and served her and had my head down. I felt really ashamed of myself. Not that there was anything wrong with doing that job, but just that she sent me and I wasn't at College or 6th form like everyone else. Anyway, as she left this bakery, she took the time to turn around. This is somebody who molds young minds.
She took the time to turn around and say, I knew you wouldn't amount to anything and then walk out. Now, that was a very nasty, awful thing to say. But it was the exact kick of the ask that I needed to go back to College. So I thank her for that. Maybe I should say her name, actually, because a lot of my success now is because of the way she treated me. But I do think that there is something in helping other women up.
When women push other women down, it's ten times worse than if men are not helping women. So we have to be able to lift each other up, and we have to know and have that abundance mindset that there's plenty of work out there. There's plenty of space for all of us to be ourselves so we don't have to keep pushing people down. Thank you so much for taking this time. There's been some really good things for me to think about and reflect on, and hopefully the same for our listeners as well.
My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Be lovely. Thanks. See you soon. Take care. That's it. That's the end of this episode, and what a few fantastic things for us to take away, a few things for us to think about, and of course, some reflection, perhaps, that we can do on ourselves as well. I think it's really important that we support each other as women and not nonbinary people, especially in careers, where it's very male dominated really great things that we've learned today.
And I look forward to seeing you on the next one.