Welcome to our newest episode of our Zing Learning podcast. Today we have the absolute pleasure of speaking to one of our favorite clients, the Institution of Mechanical Engineers, and we get to speak to Joan BIMS, who are in the exec team there and who we have been working very closely with for the last 18 months to really help to bring to life the diversity and inclusion strategy with the team, not just the employees, but also the members.
We are having a really great chat today about what it's like to really embed a diversity and inclusion strategy and how actually making different changes really genuinely makes a difference to people's lives, not just in work, but also in the outside world as well. If you're looking to implement a diversity and inclusion strategy in your organization, then grab a copper, have a listen and see what you can take away from today's podcast. Hello, Jeremy VIMS. Welcome to the podcast.
Lovely to have you here. Hi Zoe, nice to be here. Hi Zoe, nice to be here. I'm giggling just because before we started recording, we were giggling and we were trying to pull ourselves together, but that's part of the joy of working with amazing people. So just to get our listeners to understand the work that we're doing around diversity and inclusion, I want you to tell me a little bit about your experience so far over the last few years to do with diversity and inclusion.
So whoever wants to go first, please just give us a bit of an insight with regards to your experience with DNI. Well, I think it's a good question and it helps you sort of reflect over the last few years of where we come from and we've achieved today. We started talking around, Ed and I, quite a number of years ago. And in reflection, there was a lot of discussion.
I think at the time we were just trying to get just like probably the rest of society, getting our heads around the topic, understanding it a little bit more and unpacking EDI.
So we began the discussion, the debate, and I think looking back over the last, particularly two to three years, we've started to put that into action and make a difference in terms of not only for the institution, in terms of staff and our members, but also try to sort of raise our voice in the outside world a little bit more in terms of our wider societal aims. I think generally, Edith become a more of a talked about topic in society, which has helped us along the way.
But certainly I think if we had to sort of summarize, it's gone from being a theoretical subject into one of action and experience for us. Excellent. Thanks. Ben, what would you add to that from your experience? Yes, from a personal perspective, actually, I think it's been a really interesting and always a word that's used quite frequently, journey.
But I've gone through from a personal perspective, and I'm sure Joe can identify with this a range of emotions, being a person of color, being female, and being in the HR field as well. There are certain things, expectations of you, and you're still a human being at the end, and you're still impacted by the injustices that you see and the injustices that you have to tolerate.
But alluding to what Joe said, having the opportunity to be part of a different path that everyone's choosing to take together has been humbling. It's been really enabling and it's also been a big field of learning for me, if I'm honest, at times, I was very cynical about things. I've been in the whole corporate sphere where it's a tick boxing exercise and the two day course and everything.
And actually to see an organization that's prepared to do something different and really live it out has been a really good thing for me. I really agree with Beams on that experience part. I think what it's taught me, and hopefully others, is about listening, asking questions and listening.
And you learn a huge amount about the other person or the group of people, which then determines how you behave, how you interact, how you may want to manage your team, if that's what you do, or be part of a wider group. And that's probably one of the most important things I've learned, as opposed to the theory around Ed, just that experience that Bin was mentioned. Yeah. Wow. And there are a couple of things that you said there with regards to it not being a box ticking exercise.
Yeah. And that's one of my favorite things about working with you. I guess I'm as a supplier, but I feel more like an employee. I certainly don't feel like an outsider. And that's, I think, a really good testament to the culture that's already here. But it definitely doesn't feel like a tick box exercise.
And that was a very early conversation that we had when we were discussing the learning element of it, which is, let's do something very tangible here that's really going to affect change, it's really going to make a difference to the employees, to the members experience. And you've used the word, I think there's the human experience as well, which I think we forget in the working world, in our careers.
We forget that ultimately we're all humans, we're multifaceted, got lots of different things going on in our lives. It's not always about that one project and things like that. So, yeah, that was quite interesting. And it's definitely something I've enjoyed with working with you for over a year now, almost a year and a half. It's been that long already. It's produced such powerful results, literally almost from the beginning.
I think people woke up and thought, oh, I can learn something from this conversation. And I'm sure Joe's had this experience as well, where members particularly, but also staff, even myself, and said, oh, I was a bit cynical about this, but I know it's my responsibility to attend as a leader. But actually I'm finding I'm learning and I'm having better conversations with people, with grandchildren, with family members, with colleagues.
And I'm seeing, from my perspective and our position, both Joe and I are seeing where staff are saying, well, we don't need to accept these behaviors anymore. And so our members are also saying that we should all be valued. And that's really important from the perspective of where we're both coming from. It really changes your perception sometimes of a situation that you can't learn in a classroom. Is there any way I can describe it? Perhaps?
I think it might sound a bit corny, but if you think about it, it touches everything you do. So the way you greet a person at reception or client who comes to the building, to the way, perhaps if you get a slightly sort of upset client on an email, how you might respond to that, just taking that breath of thinking about the other person and the situation creates a different response. And I think it's very difficult to put that in the classroom.
But you can learn it through developing experiences, through things like the learning program yeah. And the conversations that you're having. And it's interesting you bring up responding and take a breath because that has been quite a theme, hasn't it?
Through some of our conversations, rather than reacting, we're responding, which gives our brain a second to understand whether it's an objective reaction, actually the impact that we have on another person, all of those sorts of things, which is all about feeling valued and treating other humans as humans rather than as we perceive them to be when we first meet them. So the next question that I want to ask is around your experience.
Before Zing came in, you developed an amazing DNI strategy, some really great actions that you needed to do and some really great kind of steps, very clear and concise with a really wonderful person called Dr. Mark McBride. So you do some great strategy work there. What have you learned from that process of developing the strategy? So even before the learning came in, it's a really good question.
I think the strategy tries to give everyone a common goal, a common purpose, because Ed and I can be a very noisy place with a number of different agendas in there, with different strengths of feeling, et cetera. So I think the strategy was trying to get everybody at Daema Key, whether it's members, staff, volunteers, all on the same page to give us a sense of direction and those who wanted to join that journey with us, sort of some tangible actions to get there.
I think there's always that question in Idi and I. We talk about it's good for business and we all know, but there's something in there also where there's an expectation of what's the output, what's the outcome from this? How do you measure? And so one of the areas is around data collection. A lot of organizations struggle with this topic and when does data become meaningful and then when do you take action on that data? So I think the strategies helped us create that common goal.
But if we wanted to still working around with what does success look like? So we have a whole range of activities now which are supporting perhaps our KPIs. But in terms of true success, I think that one is still open for debate about what that looks like. How do you measure a really inclusive and diverse organization? I would agree with Joe that it created a commonplace and a common way forward. However, I feel that it's only text and words and you have to bring them to life.
And I think we could easily have gone down that track, falling into that trap of many organizations of producing a brilliant strategy. And actually, you look at it five years later and you think, what we've done with it, it looks great to the outside world, it looks great to our staff, to our members. But what actually happens and I think for me, actually seeing all the work that sat alongside it, DNI training, the values work, has actually brought the strategy to life.
And you can see elements of those success along the way. We're not there fully and are you ever there fully? But we can definitely see that we've reached milestones. We can definitely see. And it's hard because a lot of those things are not necessarily tangible. They're not something that's measurable all the time. But what we've created is trust. What we've created is an environment where people are more respectful.
And so by default, those other things that are so important, that data, which is data collection, is based on trust. People are they ready to give you their data because they trust you? What are you going to do with it? But we're getting to that. And so I think the strategy is really good for keeping us focused. It's really good for actually saying, look where we come from. Also it's really good because we made a public commitment at the beginning and that makes us accountable.
At times when we feel we might be drifting, we need to go back and look at that and say what did we commit to do as an organization? And it's not just about us and the dealer, what's going on elsewhere in Imeki? From that perspective, I think it's really helpful. But I absolutely believe that with any strategy, you've got to bring it to life. Yeah, I can't agree more. I think that's so important. And the learning program is those steps to bring it to life.
Because before that it was more theoretical, theoretically. Yeah, I think that's really important and I think what it did do and it felt quite brave at the time is that it actually rose our head above the parapet on the topic. So before perhaps we were a bit more internally focused and actually by publishing something, people then sort of knocked on our door and said, hello, he interested in Edna, let's chat. And so I think that was quite a brave step, it felt like at the time.
But it's opened almost a new world to us of an awful lot of organizations both trying to improve the world if we use our own mission to improve the world to engineering in Ed and I, but also perhaps realized there's an awful lot of challenges and when we were in partnership, we can actually do this better. So we've found a common ground outside of just engineering, which I think for us has been quite unique.
One of my favorite things about working with the Imeki and so many different people that I get to meet on the workshops that we run is around the idea that it's not just about what we do at the Omeki, it's about how does that translate out into social impact? And Bins very early on a moment ago actually said about the children and the nieces and the cousins and all of that sort of stuff, where it's not actually just helping conversations internally, it's also in our personal lives as well.
And I think something there around the conversations that we're having with people and the way in which I'm hearing the shift because this is a program, we're not just scatter gunning a few different workshops out there and hoping for the best. There's a very specific journey that we're taking people on. We're guiding them through.
We know at the start they're very apprehensive to open up and talk about these things, but you get them a couple of sessions in and already they're sharing some really kind of personal things that we had no idea about and it's really starting to open up that conversation and then they're talking about, well, actually I'm really interested in it and we get this a lot from the members. They want to do some stuff, they want to take some of this learning back to their membership organization.
And we're like, yes, please share this. This isn't supposed to be some secret Imky thing that we're going to keep to ourselves. The idea here is to use the tagline again improve the world through engineering. Let's also do that in a human aspect. Let's make sure we're having a social impact with the work and the conversations that we're doing and it certainly is coming through there.
You mentioned the word accountable a second ago with regards to having the strategy go out into the public domain and having people kind of hold the Imeki accountable for actually doing something with it. Do you think that is the right way to go? If other organizations are listening to this now and thinking they want to go down the same route. Would you do that in the same way again? Absolutely.
I mean, for me personally, I've always thought and I think what's quite unique about our leadership is that we do feel we are accountable, not just to our members, but also to our staff that they look to us. And it's not about give me, give me, give me. It's more about how can we work better together to provide a nurturing environment, a safe place for everyone, to get the best out of everyone. And I think that starts with accountability.
And I think even when I first started here, one of the things was that I said, I'm accountable, and Joe was saying it. I remember distinctly a time when Joe talked about how she was accountable. And I think people need to hear that we're not just saying we want to be leaders for leaders sake. We want to say that we're prepared to stick our head above the parapet, as Joe said.
And we know that's happened because not everyone responds warmly or welcomes DNI things or ed. And I suggest a lot of people are still trying to get to grips with it and understand it. There's still a great fear around it, and that's all fueled by social media or whatever. But I think the people that see we're walking the walk, talking the talk, will understand that there isn't actually anything to fear about us being better versions of ourselves.
So that when we're at work, whether we're at play, whether we're in our companies, that we are actually able to be much more productive, much more fruitful in the things in our interactions. I think. So. In our recent annual report that was produced a couple of months ago, it felt the first time that the how we did things in the year was as important as the what.
And in the document itself, the values sit front and center alongside the business plan, the financial report, etc. E and that's I get a bit of goosebump, yeah, absolutely. To put about behaviors for how what our reputation and Brand wants to be alongside good financial resilience, meeting the needs of engineers, et cetera. It's like a piece of a jigsaw, isn't it?
All sort of begins to fit together, to create this, as Ben said earlier, be accountable for how we do something as much as what we do. And I think if you think about imacy the institution of mechanical engineers, the engineers and ethics is the most important thing, as engineers can solve the problems of the world, but it's how they do it. Is it sustainable? Is it ethically, the right thing to do? And it sort of sits nicely all in that picture.
I think even international communities would want to know that we were not and it's going to sound weird, not look down on them, but actually say, look, we want to do the right thing for you. This is not just a paper exercise because we want your membership, actually. We want to recognize and value you for who you are, wherever you are in the world that we do have those common goals that Joe talked about. It's really interesting.
I had a session with our second Cohort a little while ago, maybe a few weeks ago, and it was around understanding Ed and I, and we go through the kind of we take them at the start of the journey, as you know, because you've been through the sessions yourself. And interestingly, I discussed a little bit of a business case but reminded people that that's really important. There's some great stats.
67% of people will consider whether or not to take a role or to join a membership and things like that. Considering how effective the DNI work is, that's huge. That's so different to what it was a few years ago. So we'll go through all of those stats and I actually had someone on the call say, yeah, the stats are good, but we shouldn't have to convince people that doing things right for human beings is the right way. And absolutely we shouldn't have to do that.
And we've got some very different mindsets that are coming in. We've got some very different perspectives and different lived experiences. And as you said, spins very honestly at the start there. Sometimes people come into this with a is this really going to make a difference? Is this just another DNI thing? Is this just a whatever? Is this going to kind of die in a few weeks? Kind of thing.
And we've had some people that have come into the first sessions and on the feedback forms, they've said, I genuinely didn't think that there was any point coming. I did because I thought I should. But actually the conversations that we had has made me realize that I need to learn a lot more about this kind of thing. So people are changing their perceptions of what DNI means, I think, as well as just actually learning in general.
And I think the way in which the Imeki built the strategy, then built the learning alongside the values and the behaviors, the new ones that have kind of really encompassed what it means to be a member or an employee within the Imac e. This journey just feels so organic and it feels so genuine.
And I think that's the feeling that people are definitely the feeling that people put across in the sessions that they have with me working with you in Zinc learning, it's created, from my perspective, a different type of learning and training.
I sort of maybe thought in the past bit more traditional types and a number of the workshops I've worked with you on and the others didn't write anything down because it was all about an experience I was going through and what I came away in terms of how I might want to change my behaviors, my thought patterns, where maybe in other courses I'm there scribbling away in a notebook because I'm writing down the theory and it's sad.
I don't know how you translation into I don't know the learning in a very different way than I would have perhaps done it active learning.
I would agree with Joe because I'm being from my position, I'm very used to having someone who did the and I working in a department, etc for so almost you become a little bit complacent and blase and to the point where if I'm honest, even I don't necessarily know went in with the mindset that I could learn anything new on some subjects and also because I think do I know everything about racism because I've been a victim of it.
But actually going in and listening to someone like Joe's story or someone else's story, I'm thinking, hey, what about my behavior to someone else? It doesn't matter that they don't fit the traditional framework of what someone that's being discriminated against, but they are being discriminated against. And it's my biases that are causing that discrimination.
And that really challenged me even to the point where I think when I'm getting on the tube or the bus or something, have I judged someone? And it's been back a memory of things where it's so easy for us to fall into these biases without even thinking. But actually we can be advocates of change because we're stopping and doing that cause that Joe said you can say someone well, hey, let's not judge that person like that. Where is that person coming from?
How do we give them that sense of belonging so there's less pulling, tugging and pulling. And I think that's the really powerful thing that comes out of the sessions. And I think from day one we all set out to make a partnership and we were very clear on that. We wanted a partnership with Zing Learning.
And I think out of everybody, I think Zing did stand out to be that it would be there for the longer term and we would fall together on some things and we'd think, oh, that didn't work so well, but we'd go back. You wouldn't just carry on regardless because you've got a preset program, you know. And I think that's the really powerful thing about learning together is that you do learn together. Each child is different and a parent would have to adapt to each child.
And I think we've done that with you. And we will continue to do it as we go through the different cohorts because we talked about making the adjustments for each cohort because some are in their phase of their life or some might be in a different phase of their life. But the important thing is referring back to what Joe said earlier, is that we all have the same destination and the same goals. I don't think it's a single goal.
I think it's more than that because the values is one aspect, how we do our work, how we work together. There's so many different aspects, but it's been like this rich tapestry throughout. And I think that's a really powerful thing about learning and the evaluation of learning that's really coming out.
I think if you think about looking back, that sort of first three, four months at the beginning when we started to work with Zoe and we put together the early adopters group and we spent that time thinking how actually is going to work and looking back, in hindsight, that was probably one of the most valuable bits. It's actually talking to members and staff and working with us all to actually how we're going to make sure we achieve what we want.
And I think rather than go straight into let's run six courses, and I think, looking back now, that really resonates with what you just said. I think the power of consultation, if you want to use that word, or the discussion really brings about belonging, because it would be easy for you to use those to come to the executive or to HR and say, here, I've designed a course for you. Would that do? Does that fit your strategy? Does that tick off that?
And we could go, yes, and you can deliver it in two days and everyone would be happy because in a year's time, the whole organization has been through it. But actually it's about the legacy and passing on the bat.
And we've always said that we have to respect that wonderful, rich heritage that we have, but we shouldn't be a hostage to it, because there are things in there that, when you look back, would not have allowed a woman to be an engineer, would not have allowed a young child to dream of being an engineer. But that's because of the time. At that time. But what we have now is someone being able to inspire, to go to the schools and say, why not? Why not you? Why can't you be a mathematician?
Why can't you be an engineer? I feel that people are more comfortable now saying that, and I do believe that's going to be a big payoff in times to come. We will be forming partnerships with others and we're saying, we can form a partnership with you because we are like minded. And if you want to bring engineers into the world, we are ready to work with you and to make sure that through membership, through staff, whatever, that we're working together to improve this world.
Because it's not just about the physical, it's about the social aspects of it as well. Boom. If we want to be as an institution here in 50 or 100 years time, we need to be relevant. And that's the perfect way to be relevant. Yeah, absolutely. To the humans out there. To the other humans, absolutely. Yeah. That's it. You mentioned the word partnership there. I know we're all completely agreed there's probably going to be lots of head nods. We were very clear about that right from the start.
And I think it's really interesting because I've definitely had offers of work and clients have come to me and said, can you pull this together or can you do this? And I've actually turned them down, which when you're a relatively small business, relatively new business, that you don't really have that luxury. But I knew and this comes back to your values and behaviors as well. I knew very early on that what I was trying to achieve with Zing Learning.
And I also knew that I needed to be very careful with my values and behaviors and the impact I was having. So the partnership was really important because it helped me to know you as clients, aircraft there, my employers in some way, the way that my team, it feels in some way, actually were in it for the long haul. You weren't looking for a quick fix, you weren't looking for some silver bullet that was going to fix everything and make the cultural flowers and amazing.
You knew that it was going to be hard work. You knew that you were going to have resistance. You knew that you were going to have some people that were so excited about this and wanted to get involved really early on, but you knew it was going to be a journey. So I think that that partnership is something and that's a big learning for me. For the other organizations I work with, please don't think that this one activity or this program is going to do everything that you need it to do.
It needs to be much bigger than that. It needs to be a partnership. But also you mentioned the exec there and in my experience in working with lots of exec on lots of different DNI projects is that the four of you are so engaged with this. You're also so different as well, which is really true. So different, yeah.
Which is great because then you've got diversity of thought and the executive that really shows through in the way that we're working on this project, in the way that you support each other.
But the conversations are so genuine and I've had some really great comments from other people that have attended sessions after one of you have been on there and you've been very vulnerable and shared something about your own experience and they have just felt so much more connected to the exec because of that. And we all know that that's a really big challenge in most organizations.
So I think that for me, that's been one of the best ways that we've been able to see the change that we've been able to see is because you're all not just on board, but you're leading this. It's not just words, it's actions. And people are feeling that I would agree with that.
But I think we can't not give credit to our trustees as well and just even our new president and our former one who really said like Joe said, our new president put it up there in his presidential speech it's never been done before. To put it right at the forefront that we're a values driven organization and I think that will mean a lot to people whether it's new committee members or new volunteer members or new staff that we are. It's not just a glossy page.
It is really saying well again they're saying we're accountable for this, you can hold me to account for this. But I do think linking everything together there are so many people that have gained from the experience. I don't know anyone that's walked away and says I'm the worst person for it. That harmed me in some way. Attending it's actually made us more determined and we know that there's still a lot of work to be done. I don't want to be complacent.
I also do want to say that maybe clarify something that there is nothing wrong with having a two day course or a two day seminar and I think it's about context and it's also about your culture and where you're coming from because I think there are some places that may only need that because it can be very thought provoking. I've been on something a half an hour sort of podcast thing and it just completely blew my mind what I learnt on that thing.
But I think what we were saying is that we knew that there had to be a lot of embedding. We knew we were realistic about where we were coming from and that's from both the staff and the members side. And for us the longer term fits us. It not only fits us because of who we are as an organization, it's because of where we want to be. But in different places it may be something different. I think the important thing is to start is to start off.
Take a step of courage, take a step of whatever it is. Some people being there with 2ft jumping straight in, others will dip a toe. It takes time and a lot of it is the unknown. Where is this taking me? And I think the powerful thing is that we are many of our members and we're grateful for many of our members that have also stood up and been very vulnerable in situations where they may not have been necessarily been comfortable.
And I think that's testament to the grounds that you've laid that they feel comfortable and also having a values and behaviors champion royal at that time really gave I think it really gave members some confidence that this can be a safe place to talk about experiences. I think if I'm being really honest, there was one session in particular I didn't realize I was going to struggle with before it happened. And even now I haven't quite understood why.
It was very thought provoking, very emotional for me, and I probably didn't quite engage as I would have in that session, as perhaps others. But I do know now when the right time for me, I'll come back and have a look at that. And so at some point there will be some topics I might want to revisit.
And we've got the workbooks, we've got the videos there's actually, more importantly, what I didn't realize was going to happen is there's trusted spaces so I can go and talk to other people within the organization, members and staff when or if I feel comfortable at some point doing that.
And I didn't realize that was going to be a legacy of this for me personally anyway, and hopefully for others around that where previously, I think I'd had it in a very small group of individuals, or perhaps in the Diversity and Inclusion Committee led by ISL Pilot, where you had that sort of safe space as well. So I think that's interesting. The dialogue can continue. I think it's one of the legacies in a different way in that trusted space.
Yeah, I think we've always been about the conversation ever since the George Floyd murder, when some staff came to us and said, can we start to have conversations? Because it can't go on as it's been before. And I think that was the start of how powerful a conversation can be. But you have to create a safe space for a conversation.
And I think that's what you've created for us is that safe space by us doing these workshops, us going back and having the conversations, thinking how we and we do constantly reinforcing that learning, I think it has created that place that the conversations continue. And as long as you're having conversations, you have the opportunity to grow and to learn from them. So I hope that they do continue.
Yeah, no, it definitely feels like it's really starting to embed now, which is obviously it's very enjoyable from my point of view, because you get to see the fruits of your labor, which doesn't happen very often with them, with the work that I do, because I might be with a client for a month or two, it might even be a year, but with us, because it's such a long partnership, I can see the way which things are changing.
It's just so rewarding from my part, and I know you both agree with that from your part, you said that as well, just before with regards to the George Floyd murder, and that sparked the conversations. I know there were just kind of focus groups around. Let's talk about yeah, that's correct. And that was obviously pre us learning, pre our program. So that comment you said much earlier, which is sometimes just do something, do something rather than nothing. Don't wait for everything to be perfect.
Don't wait for a very strategic whatever, just do something, listen to your people. And I know you were working on DNI even before that as well. That wasn't the catalyst for you to take DNI seriously. I'm doing that in. But it was another thing that you were like, do you know what? OK, we can't continue to ignore the elephant in the room, which is that actually maybe we're not as comfortable as we would like to be talking about these things and let's make them a little less taboo.
Absolutely experiencing in some way some of these different aspects. And I think if we go back to the original strategy established and then coming alongside it on your values and all the work there, then there are incidences in the public, the tragedies, the challenges, et cetera, that maybe spark debate.
But I suppose what I'm trying to say is that we're not doing this for political reasons, that actually we're doing this because it's at the core of our organization and we're on a long journey and at times it can look like or potentially spin off into a political sphere, but actually it's not our cause at all.
Our cause is actually listening to our members and our staff and trying to support them through difficult periods because of our values, because of where we want to be with Ed and I. And I think that's an important lesson I've sort of learned across and at times I get confused between the two and you're just talking, it centers you again about why you're doing something. And I think that's an important point to make.
I think that's a really good point you make, because so often when there is animosity towards DNI, people think there's always a political motive. And quite frankly, some of our members think that, maybe some of our staff do too, and they've been quite vocal about that. And for me, there's a kind of sadness attached to that because actually all we want to be done is treated like humans and have that be valued.
And most people at the core actually think, well, there's nothing wrong with that either. So I think you're right, Joe, to say it's not about the political reasons. And it's been well proved, you said it yourself, Zoe, that the diversity of thought is so important, but it's more than diversity of thought, it's diversity of who's in the room.
Because I remember a certain politician using that word when challenged by a report about how many ethnic minorities were in his team and he was just fluttering away and using the word diversity. I thought, what does that mean? Does that mean you take into account the tea lady, the cleaner? What does that mean? But actually it's who's in the room. And we've all seen it, we've seen fantastic DNI statements on companies and you go and look at their management and leadership.
There's no diversity in those teams. So where is this diversity that you're talking about? And yet you can say you have diversity of thought because you've got people at different levels in the organization, but actually at the top you're still the same demographic. So for me personally, it is about what are you really? What is the picture that people see when they step into the building or when it's online? What do they see at meetings? Who do they see at meetings?
Do they see diversity around the table in order to have that diversity of thought? And I think it's still a challenge. We've still got some way to go, but we can't be naive about this. It does take time. You have to do it the right way. There are things to respect and that has to be done. But the most important thing is we are seeing aspects of change that have all been very positive, I believe, for the institution, and that can only reflect for our membership and reflect for our staff.
And I think you said earlier about what does success look like? Success for staff has been the fact that we've been able to move up in our investors and people accreditation. That huge amount of that has been down to diversity and diversity and inclusion and about our values work. There was no doubt three, four years ago, we couldn't even answer a question on it because we didn't have anything. We just literally couldn't put any questions around that because we didn't have it.
So I do think there is success where we can celebrate where we come, but we mustn't be complacent about where we could be. I mean, the great thing about imec is that we innovate with very little sometimes, and I think that's the best way. When we were children, you started from something very small before you created whatever contraction you were doing, and that's the power in. What do you have available? What can you make out of it? What can someone else add to it?
And I think the more we allow others to add that, the better we're going to be and the stronger we're going to be and the more relevant we're going to be.
Relevant is a good word, joe, you've mentioned a couple of times the word reflection and what that's done for you, whether it's that you know you're going to reflect in a little bit of time and you've had time for some of the content to make more sense in your mind, but also the idea of actually reflecting on how far you've come as an organization. Yeah, of course we can't get complacent, there's lots more work to do.
But actually, if you think about the strategy, prestrategy the strategy, the learning where we're going next. Actually, sometimes I think organizations think they're miles behind and they need to be this, that and the other.
But you've reflected and you've gone, well, we've actually come a really, really long way, but you're also doing that personally in your own reflection, in your your own work, in the way in which you're challenging your own preconceptions and things like that in general and having those conversations. So I think that's a really good message for other organizations that might be listening to this to take away, you have to reflect. This is a big part of the learning program, isn't it?
We are reflecting on our own personal impact on other people. We are reflecting on the way in which we've experienced things that perhaps we didn't necessarily realize were that bad at the time because we just didn't have the understanding and the knowledge to comprehend that at that point. I think part of that pause in reflecting is also then ensuring there's that legacy.
And by legacy, I mean it can be really practical, is that from an institution we change volunteers every year, no staff come and go over a period of time, so we don't want it to be just in the moment, I think. So part of that reflection is making sure that our communications are materials or behaviors.
Everything reflects on you sort of learning so that when we on board a new person, they understand the new IMA key in a sense, or that a new member will come along and they understand from all our literature and our communications, oh, I see where I'm a key fits in the ed and I picture inclusivity. So the reflection bit as well as therefore how are we going to improve and keep going?
Like BIM says, we're not finished yet, but it's also to sort of help bring on board the new people in Imaxe to create that sense of belonging and the wider things about how we do things as well as what yeah, I think as we go further down, it's really important that we hit the regions that we look at what's going on at Grassroots because there's some amazing stuff out there and they probably have no idea what we're doing because we seem so far away, but actually
we're closer than we think in a lot of ways. And I think you're right, we've got to make those connections. And I think the more we do this, the more there's a meeting at some point where we think, oh, we are on the same journey together and I want to do more, I want to step up, I'd like to be a volunteer, I'd like to see where I can contribute and I think that's really important.
I think one of our future phrases working with you, Zoe, in learning is around providing a much wider platform of tools and communications that anyone can access, including the wider membership. That's not inclusion, isn't it? Yeah, and all the different types of communication, from a podcast to a one pager to a booklet to all the different types to make sure that we resonate with a wider audience because everyone learns in different ways.
So I think part of actually going back to my point about legacy, but also what we're going to do next is actually how do we communicate in the right ways with the diversity of our audience. Yeah, and also, not forgetting, we're a global institution, so some people to physically reach as well. So making sure that they're included. I love that you're talking a lot about I've heard the word belonging quite a few times, which makes my heart sing because that's a step further than inclusion.
We've obviously talked a lot about inclusion, but also it's sounding like, and I know this just from having conversations with you in general, that you understand the concept that diversity, like bringing more diversity into the world of engineering, into the Imacy in general, that's not going to fix things.
What that does need to definitely happen, but it needs to happen at the same time as that inclusion work because what you don't want to do is bring in lots more different people, different backgrounds, different life experiences, and plunk them in an organization, in a membership space, whatever it might be, and they just don't feel comfortable at all like they feel.
So that concept that you're wanting this legacy to continue, you want to make sure these conversations are being had outside of the workshops in general. Anyway, that's what creates inclusion and belonging. And that means that we can bring diversity in and put that at the forefront because we know we're bringing people into a space where they can be themselves and it's only getting better week on week on week kind of thing.
And it's interesting because whenever I speak to a new client, they always say, should I focus on diversity or inclusion first? Which one should I focus on first? And I always tell them to, you know what, just do it at the same time. Because you need the diversity to bring that different perspective and to bring those additional skills and talents and completely different ways of working, perhaps.
But also you need to make sure that it's nice for them to come into nobody wants to go in to their careers who are working well to membership duties, whatever it is, and feel like they can't speak out, feel like they can't give ideas, feel like they can't be themselves and they have to hide versions of themselves to be accepted. It's exhausting. We want people to be able to come and reach their full potential and bring all of themselves into what they do.
So I love that we're talking about belonging and it's just really nice. If I think about the language we were using 18 months ago and it was very inclusive, but now knowing that we've been through all of these different sessions together, the language you're using is the language that I would encourage. So, yeah, I'm doing some reflecting during this party on the theme of reflection. Then I'd love to know what you're most proud of so far on this journey.
So I'll throw that to whoever can think of an answer first. Gosh, that's a good question. We haven't sat down and reflected like this for some time, hoppy so it's quite a nice opportunity to do it. But yeah, we might need to pause for thought for this one. I think I mentioned it before that when we go into the beginning of the session, you ask us how much we think we know about a certain topic and hands up.
Sometimes I thought, well, I know I think I'm about an eight or ten or something and other times and you know, honestly, honestly, at times I felt a bit intimidated by everyone in the room would think because I'm an HR director, I should know everything and I don't, even if it's a subject that should be close to me. So I've almost felt like I'm not really sure what I want to put down. And sometimes I have no more than I thought, but other times I haven't.
And I think what I'm most proud about now is that actually I don't really care at the beginning of the session if I only know about three, I'm going to put three. So my confidence has grown. I don't have to worry that anyone's going to judge me because I don't know about a certain subject. Because what it says to me is that I now am comfortable saying that I need to learn more.
But other times I thought I knew something, but when I came out of the session, I actually realized when I went in I was actually lower than the thing. But I think that for me, going back to about improving ourselves, being honest with ourselves, reflection, I think I'm actually proud that I can do that and I hope that even if I go on something else externally, I have that same courage to do that.
Because you do kind of get stuck into a kind of things like if you think about privilege or not or whatever, but it's not true. And a lot of that learning comes from other people's talking about their experiences, which I think you give a lot of space for in the workshops because you can't knock someone's learned experience. No matter what a textbook says, it is not learned experience.
And if someone says, this is how I feel, this is how I am, or this is what I want to be, then we have to respect that person. And that also brings a belonging element in. For me it might sound small, but for me it's a big thing. No, it definitely doesn't sound small. And actually, remember, obviously I'm not going to test you on it right now, but all of those key behaviors of an inclusive leader, humility is one of the most important aspects.
So for us to kind of think, do you know what I feel safe. I don't feel like being judged for not being the expert in whatever this topic is, but for us to kind of put our hands up and go, you know what, let's just figure it out. It doesn't matter if I get it wrong, those sorts of things. And that's a huge shift.
And I don't know if you remember we were actually talking about it in the Dean I committee of day, but we did very early on before we started because we wanted to get a level of where people felt they were at with the learning. We asked them to scale themselves against lots of different things like humility and stuff like that. We gave them statements to choose and they could choose one out of three.
We know that people have scaled themselves relatively high on some of those, and when they do it again at the end of their year of kind of going through the program, we know that some of them are actually going to score themselves even lower. Now, that level of humility and that is progress. It needs narrative around it when you put the data out to people. But that's progress because people are like, oh, okay, I didn't know as much as I thought I had, so I'm going to go and do some learning.
I'm going to get curious about this particular thing. Yeah, I would agree. I mean, for me personally, I think without it sounding sappy, I think it's really inspired my learning of DNI issues and things that I didn't know, even though I knew cleaning you someone, being a woman, being someone of color or something coming maybe from the background, that would necessarily give me that advantage in life.
But I've come out of each one wanting to know more and not so much about textbooks because my learning comes from people conversations, experiences, and everyone's different, but that's where I learn a lot from. There's something that Joe said that's going to stay with me all the time because she might not think it's a big deal, but for me it was a big deal because it really made me challenge myself and my thinking.
And I think that's the important thing is that you're inspired when you come out of each session. And most people I know feel I want to do better. I've learned and I want to do it. But they're also saying I haven't learned it all just because I've been on a workshop now, but I know I can do better and I think that's really been enriching.
Thank you, Joe. You've had lots of time to think that you've also been listening because I've been watching you nod and agree with what yeah, it all really resonates. It's an interesting one to narrow it down into one area for me.
But there's something around when I was saying before about when the hair stand up on your moment, I think for me there's maybe been a couple of those and I think one is I'm really proud of us as an organization and to be, if I'm honest, myself as an individual on occasion, where I've actually spoken up on a topic that perhaps we wouldn't have in the past.
So that's bravery of the organization and at times I've been a little bit braver than I have been in the past to speak up about the topic and stand by our values, which actually resonate very well with myself and it's quite emotional when I think about it. It sort of means a lot.
And I think that's happened not just with myself and us corporately, but I've seen it in others and that's just amazing when you see others feeling, I suppose, the psychological security to actually have that conversation and I couldn't be prouder of that for the organization and ourselves. And I think going back to your point, Bins, you can see that not only in your workspace, but you can see that in your own personal life. It's so valuable in both elements, isn't it?
Which I perhaps had appreciated before this learning program. Our joy comes from seeing our staff, how they participate in things, whether it's the team briefing, whether it's sharing personal stories and this happy space that they create for themselves, seeing them interact with each other even just after traumatic two years, just seeing the staff in the room, talking to each other, talking outside of their own teams.
You can see these amazing pictures of real joy and you thought, gosh, I wouldn't have thought we'd have seen those two years ago. And everyone's literally saying, what can I learn about this new person? How can I make them feel like they belong to immediately we saw the other day, I think I put a shout out to a new member and just put it on teams. We didn't do things that way before.
You wake up to the corporate induction and had a nice little formal session, but we've all said, well, how can we make other people belong? And other people were high five in it or whatever they were doing, but I think it's really great. And I do remember someone who started it.
I don't think he could believe himself for the first week, he just kept on going around saying, I've never been in an organization like this, I've never been in, because he was just meeting people who are going hi, welcome on board, et cetera. But it wasn't just doing it, they really were saying welcome and already they're making the mark. So there is getting to this people that say it's all sappy and all the rest of it, it isn't.
It makes sense to make someone have a sense of belonging and have a sense of value and having a sense they can contribute. And we need to make sure that going back to what Joe said, that we have a wider pool to do it because it doesn't need a few people to shoulder the load. It needs all of us to take that on, but have that single. That's why you need a strategy, that's why you need a framework. But to have a goal, where are we heading to? Every game has a set of rules and that's a fact.
And we do need that. That's why we need our values. There is a framework in which you can really do things, but it is important to have that framework and it's important that people feel that sense of belonging when they come here. One of the most important things now, it feels like it's taking what we've learned in that framework and embedding it in our long term strategy.
So for people will see on our website, etc. So we're now really building that longer term aspiration over the next 510, 20 years. And it's such an important part of this now and our legacy is making sure it's embedded in that long term strategy for the future. Yeah, it's interesting. I was interviewing the leadership group from another organization for some di audit work that I'm doing for someone else. And that was one of the questions, how do you embed deny into your strategy?
And actually they were very transparent and they said, you know what, we don't. We don't at all. But because there's such a lack of awareness and I think the DNI strategy was great to really start to raise that. But this learning and the conversations and understanding it from a human level has definitely made a big difference with regards to the way that it's really being brought into that day to day and that strategy and things like that.
I'm really sad to say that we're almost at the time, but before we do leave, because you know, I love talking to you both anyway, I just want to ask if you've got any advice that you would give to any other organizations, whether they're membership organizations or not, that would help them to think about how to start to move forward with their DNI efforts.
I think for me, Zoe, looking back over the last few years, I probably go back to a point I made earlier about if you're on the start of that journey or a little way in it, you spend a bit of time in the planning phase, the learning phase, the consultation phase before you start. So get to know how your organization, all its stakeholders feel around Dean. I almost take the temperature check, I think around it before you commence.
Because how you do it is so important because listening to all the conversations today, the program has worked for so many reasons because of the way we did it. And I think that's really important to know. The best way of learning for your organization and your stakeholders, I think would be and that valuable time at the beginning has helped us progress. I think perhaps maybe quicker than we might have if we take in a different learning route.
I agree with you and I think as an organization, you've got to have an honest appraisal of who's best to start that, who's best to facilitate that. So if your organization and you know it's struggling for whatever reasons, you might need to bring in someone else to start doing that consultation and that planning so that there's trust there because we were very fortunate enough, our staff and our members did talk to us.
But if you don't have that openness initially, you may have to bring in someone to stimulate it before you can even get to that planning stage because you don't know where you want to be until you know where you started from and I think that's really important. Added to that, I think you also have to be honest with yourself and knowing that it's not going to be smooth all the way through.
There will be times it's very uncomfortable for individuals, for staff, perhaps management, but by taking this step and saying, I'm prepared to do it in itself speaks volumes. People will step back and say, what's going to happen? Let's wait and see. You mustn't be knocked by cynicism, you must have been knocked by the people that said, oh, you can't do it, or the people that say, oh, we tried it before, you have to still be determined to make a difference.
So for me, I think, added to what Joe said, it's those bits around it that are also important and to have someone to talk to if you feel you're struggling with that. But I think if you have to hold on it, you have to hold on and not think it's a two day one thing, even if your workshop is for two days, you have to wait for change to happen. But what you have to do is that embedding, you have to think about a bit wise about what was embedding this due, what does it mean we change?
Do we start with our newsletter? What are we going to start as visible evidence of embedding? So I think that all has to come into that planning stage as well. Just add at the end there, I'm thinking who might listen to this podcast? And there are some organizations with large resources, some without and I think I would say there are ways to start the discussion without large resources.
Having that sort of creating safe spaces, having the conversations, doesn't need to cost money, it's the approach to it which we've talked about, I think. So my advice would be don't worry so much about resource, just have a think about how you start that conversation within your organization yeah. And use the tools available now we're online so much, we can get so much more inclusive than we used to be before.
So that's already a little point that they can score off if they're holding a Zoom meeting with some people that are willing to participate in the conversation. Perhaps they wouldn't have done that before. It might be in the HR team, might be someone coming to talk to the Exec team. Just put it out there. We'd like to have a conversation and that's inclusion from the start.
So you can tick off a little thing and say, I've started, and we should use everything available to us because it's the opportunities there. I would say to everybody, don't be afraid of it. I agree with what Joe said. Whether you're small, medium, big organization, there's an opportunity for everyone to make it's not one size fits all. And I think that's really important to say, I think to live by that point and our values, then.
If anyone listen to podcast, wants any advice, we'll welcome to speak to them, definitely. And I imagine there's going to be employees and members of the Imacy that are going to listen to this as well. So it's been brilliant and I'm so glad that we've still got a way to go because it's just been amazing. Having the members and the employees working together on this has really made a difference to the way that people are perceiving things as well.
So it's been really lovely to watch that and I'm so glad I'm only a third of the way through with cohort Two. We're not quite finished with cohort One yet, and I've still got cohort three to go. So from my point of view, I get a lot of joy from this. I give a lot I give a lot of energy, but I get so much back and just seeing the way in which people are able to bring more of themselves into their careers and things like that is so rewarding. And it's lovely to watch, but yeah. Okay, that's it.
Thank you so much, both of you, for the conversation. I know that this is going to be really helpful to lots of different types of organizations, and also members and employees that are going to listen to this are probably going to enjoy hearing your reflections on it and how you think it's really supported the Imacy in general. But yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you. So it's been a pleasure. Love talking to you. Looking forward to further conversations. Thanks. Bye bye.
Sadly, that's all we've got time for today. I'm sure you would have loved to have got even more advice from Joan Bins and the Institution of Mechanical Engineers there, but we've got some really great takeaways. There's definitely some advice, I think that other employers can really take on board to really think about how to get their diversity and inclusion strategy off the ground. Obviously, learning is a great way to do it, but there's also some other tips that we were just given there.
So please take them away, use them with your employees and see if you can really make a difference, not just internally within your organization, but also within the communities that you do serve. It's really, really powerful, the work that can be done if we really put our minds to it.