Mayo, I enjoyed your post on threads the other day. How many days were we from iOS 19? 19. 19 days. That's no longer true now, but I think we're, what, 17 days? 17, yeah. 17 days till iOS 19. This is my go-to thing. I started that tradition with iOS 13, I think. Oh, really? And I've done some variants. I've done WatchOS three days away, for instance. We've mixed up sometimes.
But the original was I was 13 days away. I'm pretty sure that was the first one. And that was back when Twitter was like really popular and everybody was on it. So the tweet popped the hell off. You have to combine your engagement. Yeah, these days it wasn't quite at those same heights.
I can't. It's too fun. Although I'm going to have to get it at some point because at some point it's like, oh, it's 20 days. Do you know what I mean? Like the number gets higher, it gets worse. You'll be tweeting it in January. But you can't do it because you don't know when WWDC is. There's going to be a...
point where they haven't announced wwdc yet so you just don't have that time window that is true that is incredible engagement farming is going to be usurped by its own hoisted by its own petard at some point oh the other thing i wanted to say quickly before we dive in For some reason, my brain last episode said gorges the whole episode rather than gauges when we talk about CarPlay. I don't know why I said that. It was stupid. Right, carry on.
I thought it was a British thing, so I didn't correct you because it shows my American ignorance, but apparently not. You can gauge my pronunciation on this episode. Yes. The full WWDC 2025 schedule came out this week. So we have the keynote as expected Monday morning, 10 a.m. Pacific time.
The platform State of the Union, also Monday, 1 p.m. Pacific time. And then the usual set of developer labs and one-on-one and group sessions throughout the rest of the week. I think I saw that the group stuff is new.
this year they kind of mix up a bit sometimes they have like slack sessions some i think this specifically is labs which i guess is just a way to have more it used to be one-on-ones and i guess it's like one to many now for certain topics but they've had different tries at doing that kind of stuff but yeah this is slightly different format on the labs and also this week they sent the press invites to wwdc 25 and i was the lucky recipient of one
Mayo, you are the lucky recipient of the ability to watch online. Hey, it was an email from the Apple Events email. I was like, woo, let's go. And then I was invited to watch on the web. But you're going, so it's fine. I am going. It is going to be a fun time because my first WWDC was 2023. And that was obviously like the big one because of Vision Pro and then getting the Vision Pro demo after the fact.
Last year, I was supposed to go, but I didn't get to go because of personal stuff. We were moving and it was just a bad time. This year, I will be there and I'm very excited. But this kind of dovetails into our next topic somehow, but it feels like... the excitement around WWDC isn't really there this year, like it's been in past years? Well, I guess it depends who's excitement, right? You just mean like the general narrative of the fabric of...
I don't know what you want to call it, but I'm about the same as last year, I say. I am too. I think the narrative Apple is behind on AI, which is fair. People feel burned by getting so excited about the stuff they announced last year that they haven't shipped yet. And then it's also some of the warranted pessimism around the App Store and Apple continuing to just dig their heels in and not relent on any of the App Store regulation stuff.
Of course, the latest example of that is their behavior in all of the epic game stuff. And that's probably some of the most damning stuff we've seen just in terms of like... The slack conversations of Apple's designers egging each other on to make the scare sheet as scary as possible. All of that stuff is bad and it shows what Apple thinks of developers. So I can understand.
see why developers aren't super excited. And you couple that with this apparently being an iOS 7 style redesign, which means a lot of work for third party developers to if they want to match that style and get their apps updated in time for iOS 19 in September. So between the AI pessimism, the developer relations pessimism, I can see why the hype isn't there. But like you said, I'm pretty much just as excited as I've been in years with the exception. I think I was more excited in 2023.
Just because that was my first in-person invite. And we knew it was going to be a headset, right? And we knew it was going to be a mega new hardware product category. But iOS 19 redesign, that's pretty big. that's a pretty pretty big as long as it hasn't been overstated in the rumors that's the thing because yeah I mean I don't think it's gonna we've talked about this in the show before I don't think it's gonna be like iOS 7 right it's not like 6 to 7
But probably more substantial than anything else than the 6 or 7 transition in terms of a little visual change around. And Gohmann even suggested there'd be navigational changes to some things. So that's more structural.
developers will get a load of work to do probably off the back of that but that's ultimately not not the customer's problem you know like people how many times do like people you see those screenshots where people like this is the iphone this is the iphone five years ago looks the same it's like
this is this is the answer right visual overhauls to the ui and what people want and i think ios 18 had quite a lot of cool features in it but you ask most people in the street and they're like it was the same whatever like say what you want about it it's superficial but if it looks different people care you know like right yeah it's like ios 14 is probably the best example of that since ios 7 right with widgets yeah all the new customization stuff
My mum very recently just found out or she asked me or she saw someone else's that she could make a lock screen clock, different font and coloured red to match the wallpaper. She's like, she loves it. I'm like, you know, there's all this talk of...
AI and models and advancements and cutting edge stuff. And then what gets the day-to-day enjoyment? It's, oh, now my clock's red. You know what I mean? There's a reconciliation with the reality of people just using these things, the billions of iPhone users that are out in the world.
Just give them stuff that they want and they'll be happy with it. There are longer term issues and there's an undercurrent of the future and eventually Apple becomes outmoded if they don't keep up, right? But that's like a longer term thing that is... ongoing developing and unclear right the short-term snapshots are the iphone's huge it's used by so many people in the world ios 19 as long as they redesign it in a good way will be great there's a risk that it's like
done badly you know and then we can complain about it done poorly in the vein of because one thing that you know the john prosser renders um one thing that they kind of alluded to was like the floating tab bar stuff which had some echoes of the Safari redesign. You remember that year? Yep, I remember that. Yeah, that was a not very fun time. I mean, it was fun in that it was new and different. We could talk about it, but it was...
I was very negative on it. And I hope the whole OS is not going to behave like that. I hope it's a fun summer and not just a summer of everybody complaining. Yeah, I mean, the Photos app is another example, right? Very divisive last year. I...
I would still always argue for Apple to do stuff rather than not do stuff though. So I like it when they take risks and they'd be pretty bold with it. And I think it is going to be pretty bold. And I really hope that the home screen icons get a visual update. Because that's my one thing that I've complained about the day iOS 7 was announced and they've never really fixed it. It's like the Safari icon is just bad, you know? And it's way better on the Mac.
Even Vision OS, it looks way prettier. But the iPhone, the icon's composed of three polygons and no shadowing at all. Come on. That, I feel like, it's time for a change. So I'm hoping there's a little icon update as well. The elephant in the room, though, is going to be the Apple intelligence stuff. And there's a new, or not new, but a growing narrative kind of doubling down on how far behind Apple is on AI.
And I think a lot of it is stemming from yesterday when OpenAI and Johnny Ive announced that OpenAI was acquiring Johnny Ive's hardware startup for six and a half billion dollars. And Ive and 55 other people will join OpenAI. So that's Ive himself and then some other big name former Apple designers, including Evans Henke and Tang Tan.
2026 is apparently the goal to launch whatever this first OpenAI Johnny Ive hardware product is. As for what the form factor is, we have pretty much no idea except they've said... It's not a phone and it's not glasses and it might not even have a screen. Humane looms overhead. Sam Alvin said that the OpenAI won't ship 100 million of these products at first.
but that they'll be the fastest company ever to ship 100 million units of something new, which is just an insane number and an insane level of confidence. I mean, I think it took the iPhone like... Four years to cross 100 million. Something like that. Took a long time. Yeah. And then Sam Altman also said that Steve Jobs would be damn proud of Johnny Ives' latest move.
That's not a comment that I really buy into. That's not a comment that I think – I would like to know what Johnny Ive thinks of Altman saying that just because I don't think Johnny Ive would appreciate anybody speaking on Steve Jobs' behalf. The notion of Johnny Ive working with OpenAI is interesting. From a hardware design perspective, I'm a bit skeptical of what Johnny Ive can do on his own or without an editor.
like Steve Jobs around him. I think we saw that in some of his later projects at Apple, where you could tell he just needed to be reined in a little bit, and there was nobody around him. He had so much aura, so much power, that there was nobody around him willing to say,
To make this design, you're compromising X, Y, and Z. To make this Mac Pro, you're compromising literally every other thing about the product. To make this MacBook Pro, you're compromising the keyboard, the ports, and the thermals. And at OpenAI, I also don't think he's going to have that editor.
And he's the czar, right? Yeah, he's the leader. And as you mentioned, those 55 people that have come along with him, most of them are from the ex-Apple Design group. Even the person that superseded Ive, Evans Hankey. left apple in 2023 and also works at love from and now works on this project um so optically it's not great you know like you see those photos where like the the head of apple industrial design for 25 years is now
you know, shaking hands with Sam Altman and not working Apple anymore and also basically poached most of the X team. You know, there must be resentment in the Apple executive team, you know, when that was announced because... i've kind of hung up the hammer and i can't imagine that like the it's only just what like five years since he left in 2019 or like six years i guess but like he said that the start for the hardware thing started last year so it would have been five years
surely that has to be like it seems too coincidental they when he quit Apple there must be like a non-compete for like five years and then the moment the five years that boom he started a hardware startup and then open eyes open eyes acquired it a year later
I'm excited to see what they do. Oh, yeah. And out of all of these random new hardware AI things, the OpenAI one is... by far in the best position to actually make an impact because every all these other ones are basically just relying on open airs models and like reselling them right and you know white labeling and rebranding them and building on top open air can literally
force the direction of their investment to match what the hardware needs um and they've got a bunch of money that none of these other ones had you know um openio is like easily if you want to bet today on someone that could take down the big you know the big companies open eyes clearly the front runner there by leaps and bounds and now they've got you know one of the most prestigious design teams ever
under their roof too so i'm looking forward to it but obviously it's so hard to judge on they haven't said what the product is right but i believe they said they were going to announce it by the end of next year so you know 18 months away or something
But obviously everyone's now saying that that's going to make the iPhone irrelevant before they even know what it is. And Sam Altman even said, I don't know if he said it publicly or the Wall Street Journal got like a transcript of a leaked internal OpenAI meeting about the product, but he said...
that this is going to be like the third product. You'll have an iPhone, you'll have a MacBook Pro, and then you'll have this, whatever this is. But you know that long term, the goal is to unseat the iPhone, right? He's not saying that right now because that's... That hubris is some of what contributed to the failure of Humane, right? They set out with such an ambitious and bold and short-sighted goal to replace the iPhone when the version one of that product.
was so far from being able to do that, that it ultimately failed. The expectations were too high, the hubris was too strong, and it just put a bad taste in people's mouths. So OpenAI is coming at it with a more humble approach. I mean, they did say they were going to work on a family of devices, but...
specifically that first one is not an iphone killer right it's not gonna be positioned that way which is what humane squarely went for as as in the smartphones are relevant you know that people hate their smartphones buy this pin instead
This thing is going to be some third device to go along with your laptop on your phone, apparently. It's so hard to imagine what it can contribute that like... the phone can't already do right or the or a watch or something so we'll see but it's a while it's a while away but i mean on the software side in terms of the ai forefront you can't deny open eyes change the entire game like
Nothing would have been like it is today without them doing Chachi Pateen 2022. How concerned should Apple be, do you think? Should they be panicking, shaking in their boots a little bit? You can't laugh it off, right? Yeah.
It's a threat, but I think it's also a threat that could be realized through Google with Android. Even if they don't have the hardware smarts. When they do announce this thing, let's say it's amazing, how quickly can Apple... compete against it well if they don't have the ai software stack behind them which at the moment they don't then they're going to struggle right and what do they do right now to patch up the shortcomings in
their own ai offerings they partner with open ai right and let you use chat gp through siri i don't think if apple if open air is serious about making hardware they're going to let these companies license all the same technology that they use for their own device right so
Let's say it comes out in the next year and it's kind of cool, but it's going to start small because it's OpenAI, right? Google's then going to follow suit. Google's got a much better standing right now for... bringing up a competitive environment for the ai side of whatever this thing is so the i think i said this before on the show but like the the short term apple's behind an ai is kind of
It doesn't really impact because it's not going to stop people buying phones. How do people use all their AI stuff today? They use it through apps on their phone. But in time, I think there is a possibility that... Different hardware devices are suddenly made a lot more relevant. I do struggle to consider something that isn't a phone-ish form factor.
It doesn't have a screen. Yeah, it doesn't have a screen, right? As soon as you don't have a screen, you're really limiting. And so if OpenAI was, say, making an AI phone, right, immediately feels pretty competitive. And maybe that's the plan of theirs to do in the future, but this first device is going to be an accessory.
Yeah, because if you don't have a screen, you're not going to be able to do much. You kind of become like a fitness band. You know what I mean? Maybe it just tracks your day and measures all your information and you can recall it on demand.
But you still need a screen to do almost anything in the world. And so the only form factor that I've convinced my brain that could defeat the phone at the moment that we've seen is like glasses. But this is glasses that are... thin light lasts all day long and can project really high quality visuals you know in front of your eyes which is obviously something that apple and meta and everybody wants to make but they just can't do it um i'm not sure ai can supplant the
huge benefits of a phone form factor and so i don't think the phone's going to go anywhere anytime soon so you've still got time right if you're apple like you can't just let this thing lie and just like ignore it But I don't see an imminent threat. It's not like in 18 months, suddenly no one's going to be buying iPhones anymore. It's just not how it's going to work. Maybe the iPhone's slightly less cool or slightly less dominant or slightly less driving the culture, which is always problematic.
But I also still think right now there is still scope and time for Apple to close the gap. And they're not going to be as competitive on... artificial intelligence stuff as open ai is ever probably because it's just the different companies of different strengths right i think on balance it's probably you know who can make better hardware and software
compared to open ai in terms of like products hard software probably apple right like do you know what i mean like they're different companies are different strengths and i don't think on the balance uh the consumer products thing open eye is going to come out of nowhere and be incredible it'd be great if they are because you know amazing but uh that would be you know there's doubts there
Apple has doubts in whether it can catch up into the AI space, but they are incredibly rich, incredibly wealthy, and I think had enough of a kick in the teeth last year that now they're actually a lot more serious about it.
you know maybe in the five-year time frame they can close the gap a lot more significantly than it looks like to the outside right now does that mean at wwc25 they're going to announce a load of ai stuff that's cool and matching what other people do no that's not going to happen They're going to do what they can do best, which is a new version of iOS. Mark Gurman had this probably 10,000-word essay about how Apple fell behind in AI last weekend.
Had a line in there that Apple executives currently believe that an internal LLM chatbot using Apple's models that they've built is on par with the current version of ChatGPT. But there are a couple like on the surface that seems like a. bit of positivity around Apple intelligence. And it kind of is. But look, if nothing... If Elon Musk at Grok can make a somewhat competitive chatbot, Apple can.
Do you know what I mean? Making a somewhat competitive chatbot these days is not like some amorphous task. You throw some servers and some money out and you can make it happen. So I do think there's positive there that they're doing it, but it's not like a...
It's not like, whoa, all their problems are now solved. Do you know what I mean? Yes, yes. And they have to ship it first. It means nothing if it's working internally and they think they like it. Put it in the hands of everybody. And you need to put it in the hands of everybody to... take it to the next level, right? You need that data. You need to see how users interact with it. You need to learn. And if it's just a dozen engineers inside Apple saying, yeah, this is just as good as ChatGPT.
That means almost nothing. And you wait three months and the Open AI State of the Art has gone further.
right and so you have to be so like but this is what catching up involves right you're not going to be at the forefront at the very beginning but i think when apple intelligence came out their on-device models were probably roughly in the range of like chat gpt3 you know but by then it was all we were all in the chat gpt4 and there's a huge delta in terms of capability hopefully now maybe they're closing in on the chat gpt4 kind of era and then you know the pace of acceleration um
closes the gap over time. Do I think that they're ever going to be the number one player in terms of the leader in AI? Right now, I would say no. Everything can always be up in the air. But you know kind of how, like, Apple's never... As good as they are, you would never consider them the number one, like, cloud.
company do you know what i mean like even though iCloud has got way way better google always had that crime and for a lot of 2010 you know through the 2010s that was the narrative it's like well the iphone's never gonna survive because google's gonna run all over them with cloud services and
There were elements of that. I think it got accentuated at some time in the middle of that decade. And then Apple caught up a bit and they closed the gap and they targeted the most essential things. How long did it take iCloud Photo Library to come out, right?
Google was doing cloud photo syncing for like three years before that happened. And they were doing the, you know, suggested memories and featured photos and everything. And like Apple was clearly behind there. And it was like a big net. It was a big market disadvantage. But they got there. They caught it up.
And while they were working and catching up to that stuff, they were also appealing to customers with their own things that they're way better than anybody else. It's so easy to say, well, this company now can do this and Apple can't, so therefore Apple's doomed or Apple's irrelevant. But all of these products now are like packages, right? And some people are good at some things. Some people are good at other things. And you just need like a baseline of quality for everything.
And I'd say right now Apple's probably lacking slightly on the AI side of that puzzle. But you don't have to be like the number one player to be competitive in the thing because you then... take a decent amount and you build on your other things you are actually really good at that nobody else can compete with I mean people saying that like Apple is done for is just such a simplistic take because these things are way more complicated and there's so many more facets of different things and
You don't become a $3 trillion company without this entire infrastructure and entire ecosystem of stuff. And the best company in the world, the perfect idealized form of a company, would never have anything that they slack on and they're always at the forefront of everything.
But in practice, that doesn't happen. And right now, I think we're seeing one thing where Apple's slightly slacking them behind on, as documented in a million different ways, as publicly humiliating by the stuff they announced that they didn't ship with the Siri personal contact stuff.
as rumoured to be delayed in their hardware division because they were meant to have had this home hub display thing out by now, but apparently that's been delayed because the AI stuff got delayed, you know, and future iPhone revisions too, probably get to get smarter and smarter and smarter.
based on AI so obviously you can't say AI is not an issue for them it clearly is but there's a difference between it being an issue and it being like the end of the company like I think some people this week were talking about Apple as if they were going to turn to research in motion you know like
We're nowhere close to that level right now. And there's other things that Apple's way far ahead of the crowd on and everyone was congratulating them as if it was the best thing on earth only months ago. Apple Silicon Max is a perfect example of that. So... Obviously, I like Apple as a company, but I'd happily say if I thought they were seriously screwed, I don't think they're seriously screwed. They have problems, like every company does.
I think they work on the problems, but it's not going to be an overnight fix. This is a thing where they got it wrong pretty severely and it will take time to resolve, but I think they are on the path to resolve it.
Yeah, you basically said exactly what I was going to say, which is that if you talk about all the areas that Apple is behind, or really the one big area where Apple is behind, you have to also give them credit for the spots where they are so far ahead of everybody else, which right now is hardware. Across the board, the hardware is firing on all cylinders. The iPhone design, yes, is kind of stagnant, but the iPhone is still an incredible device, right? It's still fast.
well-designed and reliable, and has all of these legs up on so many of Apple's competitors. And it sounds like Apple's hardware team is going to take the next step forward, starting, what, next year with a foldable iPhone and its 20th anniversary iPhone? But yes, if you're coming to WWC 2025 expecting a slew of AI announcements that are cutting edge and groundbreaking, I think you're going to be disappointed. So don't. Don't.
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Try it risk-free with a 14-day money-back guarantee. That's nordlayer.com slash happyhour promo code happyhour-10. Thanks to Nordlayer for sponsoring the show. So in terms of things Apple intelligence related that Apple might actually announce at WWDC, Bloomberg had a couple details this week about things to expect. One of the reports explained that.
that Apple is going to open their AI models to developers, so allowing developers to integrate the same artificial intelligence models that Apple uses for its features, for developers' own features in their own applications. Bloomberg says that it's a software development kit and related frameworks that will let outsiders build AI features based on the LLMs that Apple uses. This kind of addresses one of the...
Biggest developer problems of the original Apple Intelligence launch, which was there was nothing for developers to do. There was no developer story. It was so infuriating because Tim Cook kept saying it on earnings calls and stuff. It was like, and Apple Intelligence is now in the iOS beta and we can't wait to see what developers do with it. And the literal thing was they could barely do anything.
right you could change the button that opens the writing tools palette right or you could integrate an image playgrounds picker you know into the application and you could do the app intent stuff for the siri stuff that isn't available yet
but that was it right it wasn't like you could make a different type of application you could infuse the way your individual like to-do list app works with ai out of the box using apple intelligence because you just couldn't access any of the apple intelligence stuff that was on the device and shipping on-device models is a hard problem that most developers don't have the resources time care or money to do and so it just didn't happen right you either options are you pay um for
API keys and tokens for usage of cloud models, right? So some apps have integrated IO features by, you know, paying for an open AI plan or, you know, Google Gemini plan or whatever else, but then that's costing money per user per every time you use it.
And so the only way you can really monetize that is if you then charge subscriptions on users and, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Or you go to a lot of effort to incorporate... not as good ai models as even what apple does with apple intelligence inside your app which then also inflates the size of your app binary by a million times because they're huge and so then you've got let's say you've got five apps that do that second approach
they take up half your phone storage right and you've got a lot more effort in maintaining those models as an individual developer and updating them and keeping them on you know keeping them well tuned and do you even know if they're you know diverse if they if they you know meet the benchmarks that make them suitable for use by diverse groups of people like do they even build biases who knows right so it was a big mess and basically nobody did it what this is saying is that
there'll be some way through APIs that are included in iOS for a developer of a, you know, a smaller developer to actually take advantage of the large language model that's embedded in the iPhone 15 Pro and later, right? So all the features that right now... you know apple exposes through writing tools that is ultimately what happens when you press you know make concise in writing tools it just makes a prompt that goes to the apple on device model
which says make this content more concise and friendly or whatever, and it quotes the thing in the box, and that's the question. It gets the answer back, and then it presents it to you in a nice UI. Well, now a developer will actually be able to use that LLM underneath that's actually on your phone.
for their own use and they really don't, you know, they can use it for whatever they want. So, you know, I've had a long idea of I want to, or at least I've thought about making an app where it could like organize all your downloads for you.
and rename them and put them in nice folders and groups based on you know an art of intelligence thing so for instance when i'm putting files onto plex you know you get all the files of the video files and they've all got stupid names for you know when you've downloaded them from completely legitimate sources they've all these very weird file names and so uh it's kind of a pain to manually rename them all in the nice format but an ai can do it it just knows what to do
So, but I've always thought it'd be cool if you had like an AI renamer app, but I don't want to pay every time I rename a file, I don't want to pay for a session with open AI, you know, like it works. I've tested it, but it costs a fortune over time.
But if you can just take advantage for free, the models that Apple's already built up and continue to improve with every OS release, then I don't have to charge a subscription for this renaming app. I can make it free and just exploit the hardware that's already on the phone.
So I think it's a really nice move. It's a really nice step. Obviously, you're limited by the power of the on-device model, which is nowhere near the power of cloud models, right? But for an on-device model, it's pretty respectable. And making it easily accessible might quickly allow, over this summer, for a load of your favourite apps from smaller developers to add some useful AI little things on top that they just...
couldn't bother to do before and even if they did it would take up gigabytes and gigabytes of space on your phone and everyone would be duplicating the same kind of models across every app that you have installed so this is something i kind of wish they'd have done last year but they didn't and i'm happy to see that they're going to try and do it this year
So hypothetically, would this mean that take an app like Overcast, would Overcast be able to use Apple's models to create transcriptions of podcasts like Apple Podcasts can do today? Is that theoretically something that this would enable? Transcriptions? Hmm. I don't know if Apple's on-device model understands audio. Right. Okay. Because it definitely understands text, right? I don't know if it understands audio.
Apple does have dictation features that are exposed to an API, but there's limits on it where it's limited to like 60 seconds or whatever else. Already, that's been shipping for years. Obviously, for a podcast, you need minutes and minutes. I don't know the capabilities of Apple's on-device LLM if it allows for audio as input. If it did, sure, right? But I don't... I mean, at least if you look at Apple's shipping features...
You have image generation, you have text stuff, right? Like I can't think of an audio direct feature. So I don't know if Apple's on-device LLM would take audio as input. But if it did, yeah, sure, it would have to be able to use it.
So I think a good example is like Overcast could maybe see your list of podcasts that you've got queued up and then make a summary of like, here's all the podcasts that you've got coming up and here's roughly what's in them. Do you know what I mean? Like, so you get a little one page summary of your...
queue and maybe help that pick out whereas right now you you can't do that because like what would you do individually go on each episode and copy and paste the text into a document and then make writing tools tell you to make a summary out of it like that's you know it's just not possible um
The audio is a good example for transcription stuff, but I don't think the on-device models actually do it. Because, for instance, Apple podcast transcriptions, they all happen in the cloud on some app like an Apple server for podcasts. It doesn't happen on device. Then the other report from Bloomberg this week said that Apple is teaming up with Anthropic on a quote-unquote vibe coding software platform that uses AI to write, edit, and test code for programmers.
The report said that the system is a new version of Xcode that integrates Anthropik's clawed sonnet model. Apple is rolling it out internally first, and it hasn't yet decided on whether to launch it publicly. The elephant in the room for this, though, Mayo, right, is Swift Assist, which is the feature that Apple showed at WWDC last year. Similar AI-powered code vibe coding software feature meant to come to Xcode.
That is nowhere to be found, and Apple hasn't even mentioned it since WWDC. We at least know where the upgraded Siri stuff is. It's delayed but coming soon. Soon in quotes. Soon in quotes, yeah.
swift assist still a thing have they scrapped it all together is this partnership with anthropic meant to be the replacement or something that's what i take it as yeah but i take it as their motors aren't good enough and so they've realized it's probably better for now for us just partner with someone else that's already shipping and stuff um and make it available into xcode because like it or not xcode is used by a lot of people to make ios apps and
Right now, it doesn't have great AI integration. If you use apps, if you make apps for the web, you can use like Visual Studio Code, which has loads of plugins for like ChatGPT autocomplete and, you know, Anthropic code generation stuff. But Xcode doesn't really have... that ecosystem partly because apple doesn't support it but partly because it's also just not done um i mean like there's some hacks and stuff but there's what you want
is like what you see with these examples you must have seen these on twitter right or like social media where people say you know make this screen where it does this this and this and you press go and then chat gpt like blurts out this page of code then you copy and paste it into your developer environment and run it and hey look it kind of works you just want that inside the actual xcode app you don't want to use a different website and then you know and then
When it's in one application, you can just then go back and forth a bit more. It's a bit more integrated. And that's basically what Swift Assist was promising. And they showed it off last year at WWDC 2024. And I believe it went in private beta to a couple of people. near the end of last year but since then it's been radio silence and I think basically the judgement was the performance of the Swift Assist model is nowhere close to the performance of
the anthropic models, the clawed models, the open AI models for cogeneration. So why are we going to bother doing this? Let's just partner with someone and get it out the door, right? Which for the short-term stopgap solution is fine.
Do you want to be relying on Anthropic for the next 15 years for... your ai coding experience in your platforms probably not but i think this kind of goes back to the pragmatic approach that we've heard um federighi was talking about a few weeks ago right when he took over siri and everything and he was like
You can use other people's open source models. You can use this. Just do whatever you need to do, you know, just make it work. And I kind of feel like this kind of comes out of that where it's like...
you could carry on fiddling on with your own swift assist model for the next five years and maybe get nowhere or what you could do is you could just partner with this company and ship it and it could be out before the end of the year and so that's kind of where i feel like it's coming down on coming down on
if as an individual developer do i personally care whether the code generation model that i'm using originates from apple originates from a third party company not really right does it make any difference to me yeah really so
I just need it available inside of Xcode so I can actually use it for my job. So this achieves that. Obviously, behind the scenes, you still want Apple investing in their own models that are capable of doing this stuff because I think it's untenable for them to rely on partners for this kind of core functionality forever.
But for where Apple is in 2025, this is probably the most pragmatic and sensible option. The weird part of this and what my mind jumps to is an earlier report, I think from Bloomberg, where it said Apple was limiting... their engineers use of these third party tools, not because they should be focusing on their own models or anything, but because they were worried about their internal secrets getting out through using these third party tools.
But now they're developing this thing in partnership or relying on Anthropic. And there's a chance they don't even release it publicly and they only use it internally.
It's a weird change in belief inside Apple. Like you kind of touched on with the Federighi thing. Yeah, I mean, I think it's an example of where there's new leadership and they've got slightly more open approaches where they're like, this could be a risk, but also let's just make sure we lock it down in this and this. We'll do our precautions.
we'll agree a deal with Anthropic where the data used from Xcode can only be used in this silo and it can't go anywhere else and let's move on because our developers I'm not even talking about the community I'm talking about the 100,000 developers that work on Apple's stuff employed by Apple, they're probably demanding that they want to improve their productivity by using these kind of tools too. So they need some kind of option and solution for it.
And this is what they're coming up with. And I'm sure in the ivory tower of 2023, they were like, don't worry, we don't need to partner with anybody. We'll just use our own Swift Assist model. And then... Federighi tried it at the end of last year. He's like, this thing sucks. So, you know, this is off the table for the time being. What do we do instead? Okay.
let's partner with Anthropic and we can get a good deal on it. You know, we can agree some financial terms, probably cost the developers money. We can sell it as a front end service. We can take 30% off the top job done, you know, keep going. Then finally at WWDC. Bloomberg says that Apple will announce Vision OS 3 with a new eye tracking feature for navigating the OS. So this would let you scroll Vision OS with your eyes. It sounds...
Because right now you use your eyes in Vision OS to look at something, and then you tap it with your fingers, right? You do the index finger, thumb gesture to actually navigate around to different parts of the interface. Or if you want to scroll, for instance, if you're in Safari, you look, you pinch and you pull up. You hold your fingers down and move your hand laterally. Like the flick of the wrist type thing.
This sounds like, and the report doesn't have a whole lot of details, this sounds like you'll be able to do some of that, all of that, using just your eyes. And I can't get a read on or really get my head around how. That would work? Yeah, because surely it's going to conflict with the look and tap. Right, exactly. So the only thing I could come up with when I read this story was, because they do have this on accessibility features in iOS, which is called Dwell. Dwell, yep. So...
I can kind of imagine that let's say you've got a document or a web page up in Safari and Vision OS. You look at the bottom of the page that you can see, like the bottom of the window. And then maybe if you like hold your gaze there for a couple of seconds, it then start locks into the scroll gesture. So then you can, it starts moving down the page and you can like, you know, move your head around and move your eyes around to like speed up and stuff.
because that's the only other way I can feel like it doesn't conflict with general look around and tap you need like a long it's like a long press but for your eyes you know like stare that's what they should call it you just stare down the web page and then you can start dragging it with your eyes it's a
maybe they've got a much smarter implementation that I just come up with on the spot but that was the only way I could imagine it actually happening because otherwise it's just always going to conflict and be ambiguous with looking around and trying to tap on controls The idea that you can do more Vision OS navigation without having to use your hand is good, I think. Oh, yeah. You know, I think Mike Rockwell, when he was envisioning the headset, he wanted to rely on voice input.
So you just use like your eyes and voices a lot of the time. And he's, you know, publicly internally to the company complained about Siri not being good enough to achieve that. So they went down a different path. And now he's, funnily enough, trying to make Siri better. But this is like another way where it's like... The Vision OS system was good, but...
It's like shortcut gestures, right? You've got to build on a thing. Like how they did the original iPad and then a couple of generations later, they added those three finger, four finger gestures to multitask around more efficiently, right? Instead of having to always double click the home button. This kind of falls into that category, but for...
Spatial computing, Vision OS. I guess if you would have explained exactly how Vision OS works today with the combination of eye and hand gestures for navigation. before the product came out or even we did know how it was going to work before the product came out. That was also kind of tricky to get your mind around and get a grasp of how it would work. But then once you try it, it clicks so easily and so naturally.
that I have faith that this, whatever this eye tracking thing is, will also click naturally once we see how it works and once we try it. Yeah, I think it sounds like a good idea. Beyond this eye tracking thing, I'm curious to see what the story for... Vision Pro is in general at WWDC because I've been impressed and honestly surprised at the number of new features Vision Pro has gotten with software updates since it came out.
Because there were the ones right off the bat, like the updates to Personas, that was a big one in Vision OS 1. And then we had Vision OS 2, which was a relatively robust update in and of itself. But then in Vision OS 2.4, we got Apple Intelligence, we got the Spatial Gallery app, we got the changes to guest mode. We got the ultra-wide Mac virtual display, and what was that, 2.2, 2.3, something like that? Something like that, yeah.
And early in the – I remember we talked about this on the show. Those first Vision OS 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 updates were very clearly things that they had hoped to ship with 1.0, right? But they drew the line in the sand and said, we're shipping the product with – these features, and we'll add these in 1.1 and beyond. But that pace is pretty much kept up in 2.0 and 2.1 and so on. So I'm curious to see what their focus is with Vision OS 3.
And how much more they have in the pipeline for this specific hardware form factor, this specific hardware configuration. Because what we've heard about the future of vision hardware is that there are multiple different things in the works. There's the... version of the headset that would require being tethered to your mac for like the ultra low latency stuff there's the vision air and we're coming up on two years since vision
Pro Vision OS 1.0 was announced, so I'm curious to see where the focus is with Vision OS 3 and whether there's any sort of slowdown in new features being added. But I'm optimistic, I think, based on what's happened so far. Yeah, I reckon it's going to be a decent year-over-year update for Vision OS.
Or it's just going to be the year where all of the new design stuff in Vision OS comes to all the other platforms and Vision OS 3 sits there and it's like, hey, guys, I'm still here. I started all this. Give me credit. I'd say this don't be new features.
yeah i think it's gonna be a decent year because if you only recently did they even fold in the vision os software engineering team into the main group right like yeah until very recently the vision the vision project was like this separate little start which had its own group of hardware engineers home group of software engineers just working on vision os and you know they changed it they changed the organization like april um
But before then, they were clearly working on something for that entire year. You know what I mean? There's going to be a roadmap of stuff. And I bet there's still stuff that they envisioned in Vision OS 1 that they still wanted to do, but they just couldn't do it. The to-do list is very, really long.
and vision os is still quite nascent still quite new there's a lot of low-hanging fruit just like how it took until iphone os 3 to get cut copy and paste on the iphone there's going to be equivalents for that for the vision thing i think improvements to window management
would be good i still think you should be able to like pin a window to a corner and you can move around and then it just stays there in your vision instead of it like being physically located in space um there's plenty of stuff they can do and people might laugh at the current vision hardware um but i think augmented reality is going to be a huge part of apple's future and they seem very invested in it and so it would make sense to me they keep investing in the software side too spring is here
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gives more detail about what to expect from the design of that device. But I think it's important also to take a step back and look at the next three years of iPhone models in general because there are going to be the biggest changes, right, in probably five years we've seen. We have the iPhone 17 this year, which is expected to have the new camera bar design and introduce the 17 Air.
Then next year we have the 18, and that's when the release schedule will shake up and we'll get the pro models and the foldable in the fall, followed by the base model in the spring. The big design change for the pro models next year is going to be they're going to...
put the Face ID technology under the screen, apparently, and move the front-facing camera to the upper left corner. Then we'll have the foldable. Quite literally the hole punch position. Yeah, quite literally the hole punch. Then we'll have the foldable. than in 2027 apparently is this 20th anniversary iphone model that this rumor says will use a four-sided bending display technology
So the entire front screen, the entire front of the device will be screen with no bezel whatsoever. And no cut out because the camera will sit behind the screen with that model. And some sort of new technology to hide the camera under the screen. It's the quintessential what, to go back to our friend, Johnny Ive, has wanted all along, which is a slab of glass and aluminum and titanium or whatever you want to call it, bezel-less all-screen design on the front.
This sounds ambitious, and I'm skeptical that it will happen in time for 2027. But you can see the mark. Mark Govan, to be fair, also corroborated it. He said, that's the plan. Didn't he also say the 20th anniversary was going to be the 2026 phones first or something weird because we had to try to make sense of that timeline? Yeah, he has shifted that a little bit, but that is cool as hell.
It is. It is. It's the iPhone X without the compromises, right? Yeah, that's what I was going to say. You can see the march of... evolution from the iphone 10 to the dynamic island to this and you can see there's inner interstitial stops between each of those right the dynamic island or the the notch gets smaller the dynamic island
Use the software to address the hardware problem of the two cutouts. And then you go and you hit your goal with the iPhone 20. You can't really, in terms of just pure numbers and pure anniversaries and dates and stuff like that, with the iPhone 10 coming out 10 years after.
The first iPhone, the iPhone 20 coming out with this all new design 20 years after the first iPhone. You can't really line it up any better than that. Yeah. This sounds totally cool. Like I'm sure the screen will have still a bezel, but what it sounds like is the bezel will just be on the sides. rather than directly on the face. So they'll curve, you know, like some of the older Samsung phones, where you don't have a curved edge.
But it wasn't like, I think it was like one edge. It wasn't like all the way around. This sounds like they're going to do it for the top edge, the bottom edge, the left edge and the right edge. And so there'll be some sort of border, but it will be on literally the sides of the phone that if you were looking on the phone straight forward, all you'd see is screen.
And then I guess you've got a back of glass and somewhere there's a little join with some black bezel around it. But the camera's gone, or the camera's hidden away. The face of the east sense is hidden away. I mean, what can you complain about? Not much else to say. Yeah, I mean, it sounds awesome. It's so cool. Yeah, like you can imagine like the colors will bleed over the sides and the iOS system's already really well set up for this because of the safe area insets that they have.
to do for the notch you can just have safe area and sets that cover all the sides of the of the phone and then that means that all the apps automatically put like bleed over content in there but nothing
that you actually need to tap on, right? So like you have like your photos and your backgrounds, colors like fall over the sides of the phone, but like the back button will have the inset so it will still be on the flat face, right? The face you actually see. So the OS is very well set up for this.
And I think it would look really, really cool. And it sounds achievable, right? It's taken a while, but I feel like we're finally on the cusp of it actually being... pretty legit like if you can do foldable phones that are going to have almost no visible crease which is what apple's going to ship the year earlier according to these rumors right
It doesn't seem crazy that they could ship a phone that has no bezel on every edge. And if they're taking off the face ID under the screen the year before, give it one more year, they can take the camera under the screen too. And maybe it's a...
a bit like the 17 air it's a bit compromised and maybe the front facing camera isn't as good as it has been on previous models or there's some other like gotchas around it but the idea is that you get this design on at least one model of phone right i presume
They'll sell hole-punch camera phones for many, many years after that, but they'll have at least one model, which is this really cool, advanced, bezel-less phone for the first time. I'm trying to think, what were the compromises of the iPhone X? But besides the obvious, you know, it had the notch. Like, that was the compromise at the time. And the face ID was kind of rough. Was it? First generation face ID wasn't as good. Like, it was good. More than acceptable.
But you compare it to like a couple years later when they revved it, it's way faster to unlock and way more accepting of angles and stuff. So I would say the compromise of the FM10 was the notch, the price. That's true, yeah. And... losing some of the convenience of touch ID, I guess, was the biggest things. And if you actually remember, the bezels on the front were a lot thicker than they are now, right? Because they revved it several times.
So obviously right now you still have screen bezel, but it's way thinner than if you compare it to an original iPhone X. So the big compromise with the iPhone X were the notch and the price. I'm excited for this. I said this before, but I'm excited for the next three years of iPhone updates because it's going to be so much new.
Yeah, I mean, when you hear these people about, oh, Apple's so boring and stagnant these days, it's like we're literally on the cusp of them having three major design revisions of their main product. Then finally this week, Ming-Chi Kuo has some details about the future of AirPods. Here's something where you can say Apple's being really stagnant. Yeah, he says...
We shouldn't expect any major AirPods hardware updates until AirPods Pro 3, which are apparently slated for 2026. I think the general going consensus was that we expected AirPods Pro. 3 and 2025 so later this year with things like better active noise cancellation the heart rate sensor that's now in the power beats pro 2 and there are also some whispers about
What the body temperature stuff potentially coming to AirPods Pro. But now Kuo is saying 2026. So that would put it at four years since AirPods Pro 2 were released to the release of AirPods Pro 3. That's a big gap for such a popular and important product for Apple. Yeah. I don't know if I buy this necessarily, especially with the Powerbeats Pro 2 coming with that heart rate sensor. It was surprising enough that Apple let Beats...
steal its thunder by what we thought was maybe like seven months or something. Yeah, and the base AirPods 4 get noise cancellation now, which is really good. And they narrowed the gap significantly. you know, encroaches on the AirPods Pro as well. It does feel kind of crazy that, because I think iPods Pro are really popular.
and oh yeah even if they did a small revision people would buy them you know like quo pits it as oh in 2026 you might get the AirPods with the cameras in them right these are these infrared cameras things that they're going to use for some sort of AI feature
But if you just shipped AirPods Pro 3 this year with better noise cancellation, I'd reckon a lot of people upgrade just for that, you know? Yeah. They could rev them. And if you look at Apple's earnings reports... the wearables category is slumping slightly and i think a large part of that is there's just less
You know, AirPods Pro sale is coming through at the moment because everyone's bought them. And to be fair to Apple, they keep making AirPods Pro 2 better and better and better through software, right? They've added loads of software features, most recently the hearing aid stuff. But...
I reckon they could sell AirPods. If they did AirPods Pro revision every year, people would buy them, you know? So the fact that it's already been three years and now might even be four years is kind of wild. Then we have AirPods Max. Kuo says that we can expect a new version of AirPods Max in 2027. 2027! With apparently a new design that is lighter than before.
So what people have been asking for since the first AirPods Max were released in 2020, we may get in 2027. And hopefully that also comes with a chip update from the H1 to whatever the modern chip is in 2027. Seven years of the H1. Can you imagine December 31st, 2026? They're still chipping the H1 chip. Oh, AirPods Max.
Like the arguments I just made about AirPods Pro, you can't make about AirPods Max. Like clearly the volume is different. Yeah. But I still feel like they sell a decent number of AirPods Max every year.
they could justify an update of significance more than once every seven years. Just make this update the one they did with the USB-C one, you know, and then I'd be okay with it and carry on. Or even if the USB-C one at least gave it the modern chip, they'd have... bought himself more time but for the the current gen airpods which are the same as the 2020 airpods apart from they changed with ports on it for seven years that's just
Unacceptable in my opinion. It's ridiculous. Who would ever buy AirPods Max right now? Oh, is that a setup for what I put in the note? That was a setup, yeah. See, I've pulled one over on you though. Here's the thing. In the note, I wrote that Chance got new AirPods Max. And what did you write in the comments around that? I did not get new AirPods Max. Oh. I got Emily new AirPods Max for her birthday.
So I did buy new AirPods Max. But didn't Emily already have AirPods Max? She did. She did. Okay, so you've replaced AirPods Max with AirPods Max. To her credit, I would bet that she wears her AirPods Max. She's like in the top 1%.
of people who wear AirPods Max. She wears them all the time. And she wanted new ones because I think mainly she wanted the starlight color. So I said, okay, like, well, that's fine. You know, you want AirPods Max for your birthday? Cool, we'll do that. But then what I did... was she had the blue AirPods Max with Lightning, the original blue AirPods Max, and I had the space gray AirPods Max. So what I did is I said, huh, you're getting these. I'm going to take the blue ones.
Change up my setup a little bit. Satisfy my itch for wanting new AirPods Max just by getting a new color. So now I'm wearing blue AirPods Max instead of space gray AirPods Max. A revolutionary change to my setup. Where are the space gray ones? They are in a box waiting to be shipped to a lucky buyer from eBay in Missouri or something. How much do you sell them for? They went for $155, I think, is what the auction ended at.
which is not great. If we didn't have to pay for international customs, I could probably bought them off you for 200. But the customs and shipping is crazy. I mean, here, I'll send you a picture and you can tell me what you think. But there are... They're in good condition, but they are really worn down on the earpad things in particular. And you can buy replacement earpads. I think Apple charges $60 for them, so you can replace them.
But yeah, you can have a whole single ear pod for the AirPods four, or you can have the cups for the AirPods max. Oh yeah. You've sent me the picture. They are a bit like scuffed, a bit grimy after five years, but. So we do have a new pair of AirPods Max in the household, and I did buy them, but they weren't for me, so I feel slightly better about them. Somewhat more acceptable. I think the fact that Emily wanted them, though, shows that for all of their faults...
people still buy AirPods Max. Yeah, but you can't... She would be way happier if they also had more features. Like, that's just a fact. I don't know that she would, honestly. She would be happier if they had improved noise cancellation. That's for sure. Because I think...
The amount of noise cancellation you get from AirPods Pro 2 is insane, right? It's better than AirPods Max, yeah. Yeah, better than AirPods Max. And AirPods Max are huge. But because they use the H1 chip, they have the worst noise cancellation algorithms.
So if they'd have just done the USB-C AirPods with the H2 chip, it would have been a much better situation we were in. Alas, we are not. Because I told her, I was like, you know, these still have the same chip as your... original airpods max and she was like they have a chip inside what does the chip do i was like oh well you know the noise cancellation doesn't just like use
it uses algorithms and software to reduce the sound around you, not just the fact that they're cupped on your ears, right? And she was like, oh, okay. I was like, so you don't care though? You want them? She was like, yeah, they're cute. I'm like, okay. That's what people care about is AirPods Max are undeniably...
This is a tricky thing to say. They look very cool. They are well designed. Oh, I agree with that. If you put them on your head, they're heavy. Exactly. From a visual standpoint, they look so cool. They don't fold. They don't have any sort of a normal case because they can't really fold and they're heavy. But from a visual perspective, they do look very cool. Yeah, logo-less. No Apple logo. Logo-less, yep. They just, you know, nice piece of aluminium and shiny.
They look great. I agree with that. But I am kind of looking forward to the lighter weight model. 2027. Yeah, I'll be here with Bait Your Breath for another three years. And this commits me to using these Lightning AirPods Max until 2027. So I'll be right there with you. All right. I think that does it for this week. You can find us on Apple Podcasts where you can leave a rating and a review.
Find an ad-free version of the show with bonus content each and every week at 9to5mac.com slash join for $5 a month or $50 a year. Send us feedback happyhour at 9to5mac.com. I am on threads and elsewhere at Chance H. Miller. And Mayo, what about you? At BZMAO. All right. Thanks, Mayo. Bye-bye.