Get Played with Roman Mars and Ben Brock Johnson

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I am so excited about our new miniseries, Hidden Levels. It's a six-part show about how video games left the arcade and started reshaping the real world. We made it in partnership with WBUR's Endless Thread, and it's co-hosted and... created by Ben Brock Johnson. The show launches wide on both the 99PI and endless thread feeds on Tuesday, October 7th. But if you're already a SiriusXM Podcast Plus subscriber, the first two episodes are already waiting for you.

right now. Ben and I wanted to get the word out about the show to video gamers everywhere. So we went on the great Get Played podcast to talk with hosts Heather Ann Campbell and Matt Apodaca. And it was such a great conversation and they were such gracious hosts.

that we wanted to share that conversation with 99PI listeners. You'll hear about how Ben came up with the idea for the series and a sneak peek at some of the things that we'll be covering. And as the kids say, a whole lot of new Roman Mars lore gets dropped. So if you're ever curious about what I was doing from around 1997 to 1999 and what it has to do with video games, stay tuned. All right. Well, Heather.

Why don't we introduce our guests? Okay, Matt, let's do it. Okay, from the podcast 99% Invisible and WBUR and their new series, Hidden Levels. Hidden? Levels. What could that be about? Well, I'll tell you. It explores the impact of video games on modern culture. It's Roman Mars and Ben Brock Johnson. What's up, guys? Hi, guys. Hey. Hey. Nice to see y'all. Welcome to the show. Welcome to Get Played, the show.

This is like, we're actually, we're doing the show in a very serious way now. We sound so professional. Yeah. And normally none of this tone is present. No, no. Everyone is like, this is false. Yeah. Yeah, this is not true. This is not. There's an artifice here. Matt and Heather have been replaced with AI. Yeah. They've got like just avatars doing the show. I was just sitting with my...

fingers like laced. Yeah. In the hand. Little Gendo from Evangelion. Yeah, I was being Gendo from Evangelion. Get in the robot. Roman, get in the robot. Thanks for being here, you guys. So you guys have a new podcast series that's coming out. You said the street date was October 7th. Why don't you tell us a little bit about Hidden Levels? Go for it, Ben.

All right. Well, Hidden Levels is something that I started talking to Roman and his team about about a year ago. Wow. And it came out of this thing that I was seeing. And look, this is gonna be a statement of the obvious for you and your audience, right? Like video games impact the world beyond video games. And I think it's one of those things that people...

who are in gaming and who play video games, they know. They see it all the time as they walk through the world. They see things that they recognize as coming from their culture and the world that they inhabit when they play games. But I think a lot of people who... don't know video gaming as well or don't play games, don't...

see that stuff and don't recognize it as, as easily. And, you know, I've always been a huge fan of Roman show. Um, I make a show about the internet called the endless thread for WBR, this public radio station in Boston. And always been a huge fan of Roman's show. And Roman's show, which Roman will introduce better than me, is all about the, you know, the architecture and design in the world that you don't see, but is hugely important and has an impact.

beyond its creators. So it just kind of felt like a match made in a video game dungeon. And we went from there. It's neat to hear you say that video games have become sort of like you... ubiquitously infused into culture because there was a time. In certainly our lifetimes when that wasn't the case. And now you will see video game language on like a billboard. You'll see things that say like level up your workout. And leveling up was once a.

a thing that was in an instruction booklet for Super Mario Brothers. Like you would have to be like, you'd have to learn the vocabulary and then... understand it on your television and tell your friends at recess. And now these are just they're sort of like permafrost on on reality now. Yeah. I mean, they're really they're they're.

almost mundane in every day is part of the thing. They're not like notable. And that's sort of what, that's where the bailiwick of 99% Invisible. It's about, you know, the design that is part of the built world that becomes so ordinary doorknobs, sewer. covers you know like you know and and and all of a sudden like

looking at them deeply and going, oh, there's a story in that. Like somebody made a decision there and they designed something and we're interacting with it every day. And video games are just ripe for this because the way that they've infiltrated, you know, real life. and back and forth and they communicate and it's just it's it's huge and it's rich and we had you know we have six stories in this series but there's like hundreds more like we could possibly do yeah

I guess it's a six-episode miniseries, right? So there's six different stories. Do they all sort of follow a similar trajectory? Do they intersect in any sort of way? Or are all these things kind of on their own island as far as impact? I would say like, it's a little bit of both. You know, they, they, I think we found in making the series that they, they led into each other really well, you know?

We have an episode about a very famous sports game that I think the sounds of which you will recognize. Um, and, and you know, the way that story ends, um, with a boom shakalaka, shall we say, um, um, you know, had us, had us starting to talk about, um, Interestingly enough, just joysticks and the ways that we control these games. And that leads into a story, for instance, about the hardware that we use to control these games and how that hardware has itself influenced.

all these other parts of the world that are not specifically or exclusively about gaming. Is that Roman? Would you say that's fair? It's not serialized, but it's. You can listen to each episode on its own, but because the world is so connected, you know, like they kind of talk to each other. And it was becoming clear as we were putting them together, like, oh, this is the right order to speak.

speak about the men just because it set up those connections kind of nicely. Right. You're talking about controllers. I think before video games, people used to have to fly planes by pulling these different ropes. Yeah. And then they saw the joysticks and they were like, you know, this could make flying a lot easier. Stay tuned. Episode two.

to have the full story because we trace emery likes traces the whole like evolution of a joystick part of the plane is involved you know oh really war games are involved well i was gonna say it's it's interesting that airplanes was the that you pegged there because I was just thinking based on... using a video game controller and like playing games where you have to fly planes like you know flight simulator or even like you know the Rogue Squadron the Star Wars yeah

flying game i kind of think i could fly a plane i kind of think i could just do it having never tried it matt have i ever told you the story of me flying a plane I think you have, but you have to tell. You have to say it now. I was in Wisconsin and they have those like, you know, like roadside, like get in an airplane that a farmer owns and he'll take you on a quick. I mean, I've never seen that myself.

I understand. If you go deep enough into Wisconsin, there's like, you know, the guys who are crop dusters and they're like, you know, 20 bucks for a ride. So I got into one of these planes and was like flying around. And the guy was like, do you want to fly the plane? And I was like, yes. And so he let me fly the plane. And then he was like, hey, you're pretty good at this.

crazy thing to learn while letting somebody else fly a plane. And I was like, yeah, I've played a lot of Microsoft flight simulator. And he's like, yeah, it's kind of the same thing. I mean, those Microsoft flight simulator, uh, like folks are for. real i feel like that's that's that's very it's close to the real deal oh yeah with like a full rig yeah yeah the full the full rig i hear i i will say as as much as we like flying

planes with sort of a game input. I've heard that game controllers are really bad at submarines. Yeah, I heard something about that too, actually. I can't remember what it was, but I sort of do remember some story, I think. If I remember the details correctly, a submarine was involved. I'm not sure it was the controller's fault in that situation. It certainly wasn't.

An airtight vessel with no escape. Yeah. Yeah. Couldn't have been the reason. There might have been some other science there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it is fascinating. And I love the story that we do about controllers because... And there's a couple of other stories that we have in the series that talk about this too. And I think Roman said this earlier. These things are talking to each other, right? Like you have this piece of hardware that's really created for...

an actual massive mechanical machine that people use to traverse the real world. And that inspires then a digital world. And then that then again goes back and inspires the real world. And I think that's the thing. that's really fascinated us when working on this series. That's really cool. Was there anything, I mean, I guess without spoiling...

any like sort of particular story. No, I mean, just tell us the top five moments of your upcoming series. Just like, just give us all. I mean, Heather, you sound like you already heard the second episode. So, you know, I don't know. I think somebody leaked it. I don't know.

I guess, yeah, was anything in particular, like, particularly revelatory to you? Like, were you, like, upon learning something, you just, like, never would have even considered, like, this, like, you know, like, a video game being that impactful in the modern sort of world at all? Wow. Okay. Well, there's...

A lot for me. I mean, I thought that the – I mean, what I loved about the joystick one since we're talking about it is I cover design a lot. And so I think about the principles of design. And there's this concept of affordance, like what – a device kind of telegraphs what you're supposed to do with it just by looking at it.

essentially. And so a joystick has an extremely just grokkable affordance. Like you know that when you want to go up, you push up. When you want to go down, you push down. And so there's that... That sort of thing. And then, you know, in the world of flat screen, touch screen games, you know, a flat screen has no affordance. Like you can do anything with a screen and it becomes like less fun to me, you know, like in many ways. And so there's things like this.

Like the principles of design that we were able to drill down on that even though I've done a show about design for 15 years, like I've never really had a good example to describe that to an audience. And so when we were talking about it in the editing and it was being reported out by Amory.

Like, you know, like we were able to discuss this and, you know, bring. So it's like it's just like what was fascinating to me was how fundamental both like, you know, story and thought and theory and design all is. is part of all video games and it should be obvious because you know video games

Because, I mean, they are completely designed from the ground up. There's no part of it that you're like, there is the earth that I'm going to build on and therefore I have to deal with the earth. The earth is created by somebody's mind. The air is created by somebody's mind. And so everything is thought of. And because of that. There's so many avenues to explore because everyone made a decision about every pixel inside of a video game. Yeah. And that is really that was just like lit me up.

in sort of every story in so many ways, because it just is like there's like super smart people making decisions and thinking about things. And you just and what's great about it in this sort of 99% invisible part of video games is you don't necessarily have to. feel the author. You just feel immersed. And that means that they're doing a good job in a lot of ways. This is why...

I particularly enjoy animation over live action is because there's so few accidents in animation. Like so much of it is just curated choices of design and intent. And that's also a lot of video games, although now there's a lot of emergent play that isn't particularly the designed purpose of the game. Right. And that sort of stuff will like float to the surface. I had a side question, which is.

You talking about looking at an object and knowing what its purpose is, and I think this is probably maybe something you've talked about on your podcast before, but if it isn't, I'm super curious. What is... What do you think are like, what is the most, how do I put this? What's an object that you think is very poorly, not a touchscreen, but that you look at it.

And you don't know what it's supposed to do. And it's supposed to do one thing. For example, when I look at a carrot peeler, I am absolutely not thinking that's so that I can scrape it on a carrot. I was going to say pickle picker upper.

So like, I feel like we're in the same headspace somehow, you know, those things where you like, you got to like, yeah, it's sort of like, it looks like a syringe on the back end and on the front end, it looks like one of those claws in the gaming, in the actual, you know what I'm saying? I actually didn't know that that was what that was.

Today we learned. I thought that was for like a turkey. I've seen that in a kitchen and I didn't know. I also say. Like scratching her back with it. Picking my pickles. I also think, and this is not because our show is for and made by stupid people. Yeah. Toilets.

They don't necessarily say what they are. You wouldn't necessarily know that you have to do that. Right, because you wouldn't be like, oh, I should go over there and empty into the water. You would look at it and you would think, is this a kind of... breathing apparatus. Do I put my foot in here?

To clean it. Or you see water and you, if you had not, if you would just be like, I'm going to drink this. Yeah. I mean, my cat thinks that. My cat thinks that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. If the toilet has 40 buttons on it. Then it gets really dangerous. And you know I'm going to push all of them so I can learn exactly what the buttons do and then be horrified by the results every now and then. Just like the elevator. I think the sort of plurality of smart devices.

have terrible affordance and you don't know how to use them and you have to read instructions on how to get them. And one of the things that... makes things, I mean, like, I would argue not to disagree greatly with the carrot peeler thing. If you had a carrot peeler, I think you'd quickly learn that it peeled, you know, like you would see it and go, here's what I'm handing. But like, I like to think about this as like, you know, you know, when you.

You know, I think everyone's had this experience when you've lived in a house for maybe 20 years and you still don't know which knob goes to which burner on your stove. That's a type of weird, bad design that is like it's like. You shouldn't have to think about it. Or like if you have a bank of light switches and you have some kind of mnemonic as to which socket it goes to. Like those represent, you know.

design fails and i think a lot of us take those things on as like i'm so dumb i can't remember what light switch goes to which socket but really those are bad design decisions and they don't represent you know they don't sort of like exhibit good design that would sort of like you would normally have to set that up so you wouldn't get confused. And that's the way to do that.

So would you say that in terms of video game design and then real world design, that your interests lie in more skeuomorphic design choices? Or are you... Do you find that trying to translate, like looking at an icon for a tape recorder on a screen doesn't tell you the story that you are supposed to push? that button in order to make the recording start because also you're you have dissociated so much from what a tape recorder is like what how would you do you have a way to make

game design better. Yeah. I honestly don't. But I mean, I can tell you, like, you know, I think these sort of, you know, these... These kind of things like skeuomorphisms that sort of lead people because you know the real world analog and therefore you know how to do them inside of a digital space. You know, they have their role, especially during the transitional phase of getting used to a digital space. But I think at this point.

There is like there's no point in putting like an analog, you know, reel to reel in front of. my kid on icon and have them have that make sense to them. So like that, I think that design language, you know, just evolves and changes over time for sure. And maybe, maybe this is a different kind of thing when we're talking about design, but I.

One thing that I'm amazed at, you know, I'm 45, right? So like I, the first games that I played were arcade games and Nintendo games. And I remember games that were, they took forever and so long to figure out. out how to use how to like move the player how to move the sprite whatever and just like um

You know, I think of a game like, well, this is a new example, but like Cuphead, if you know that game. And like that game, I don't think, I think I've still not made it past the first level of that game. Like that's a hard, that's a hard game. Yeah. But it's sort of, I feel like. it's calling back to some of those games where you just really, it didn't sort of push you forward. The game didn't pull you forward in the way that games do now where like you're immediately immersed.

in the space that you're playing in. And you're just getting these directives one at a time, like press X to pick up the gun. You know what I mean? There's a way in which the game is communicating with you as a player that is, I feel, much better now than it used to be, where they used to be kind of esoteric and hard to get into in some ways. And now it's like...

It's kind of dummy proof some of the way that the games communicate with you as you like move into the environment, if that makes sense. Sorry. I was going to say so much literacy for video games in general comes from your like. Predetermined knowledge of it you have to like I don't think somebody could pick up like The Last of Us 2 for example Having never played a video game before and be like this is easy to me because there's so many things you'd sort of do have to know like

that the left joystick moves your person and then the right joystick moves your field of vision. And that's like you're sort of learning to sort of pat your head and rub your tummy at the same time kind of with some of these things. Totally.

If you know how to play a video game, chances are you're going to know how to play a different... video game pretty easily yeah yeah there's also a lot of vestigial stuff that has just become the vocabulary of games like for example there's ammo in barrels yeah and it used to be well but but but i like if

Which is not real life, by the way. That's not how that works in real life. But it comes from a time when you're playing these side-scrolling fighting games and there isn't a lot of information on screen and perhaps you're... walking through a city and there are trash cans rendered in pixels on the on the screen. And so, you know, oh, I can punch those trash cans. And when you punch the trash cans, sometimes you'll get.

a food item that will help your character get their life back. And so you'll punch a trash can and a turkey will come out and you'll be like, Oh, I can, I, now I can get better. But all of that legacy has then gone all the way to.

effectively, Last of Us Part II, where you're like smashing shit in the environment to try and find ammunition for your character in a way that you absolutely never would interact with reality. And all of that is sort of... an assumed knowledge on part of the developers that is then, you know, like you can't, like people can watch any movie as their first movie.

Like generally. Yeah. Some that probably shouldn't be your first. Right. But you can you don't have to like there's not a ton like dogs watch movies now. There's all the tick tocks of like people like dogs watching The Lion King and under and following it.

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Let's get into your histories with gaming in general. We got a little bit of bends there, but let's get into it just a little bit deeper. Where are you guys at with games today, I guess, is a good jumping off point. Yeah, what's your rank in Fortnite? Man, barely, barely, barely survives five. I mean, Fortnite, my experience in Fortnite, Fortnite's one of those games where I can, I think it's gotten better at matching, right? Like I used it when I first started playing Fortnite.

And maybe I've gotten better too, hopefully. But when I first started playing, it was like two minutes of me screaming and then starting over. Do you know what I mean? Like I was just like running and hiding and then starting over. um i i will say that i put you know really my my gaming um is is these days about connection i really like

talking to my good friends across the country who I don't see anymore. You know, they have their own lives. I have my own life. They, you know, they're parents. I'm a parent. So one of the ways that I connect with them is we play games together. And and we learn the lore together and we, you know, we spend a couple hours every week doing that. And that's really wonderful. And and it's really it's really less about the grind and more about.

talking to each other. And, you know, we've basically had group therapy sessions, you know, talking to each other as we've gone through life challenges. And, and a lot of what we do these days is a sort of second screen activity, or you're doing a couple things at the same time. I don't know if that's bad or good, but I just know that like my buddies and I, we talk every week and that's, that's meaningful to me. And so I play hell divers. I play, um,

Uh, we just started playing Diablo four. Uh, I, um, we played like every sniper elite because one of my buddies is just obsessed with sniping and that's what he loves to do. I played a generation Z. I liked that game a lot because of the crafting and, and just like moving through that sort of post-apocalyptic fighting robots world, which is, you know, that's a classic trope and, and it works.

But mostly I just do it for fun. I mean, we've tried to play weirder, odder games, but we have a kind of split. Half of the group is like, I just want to shoot guns. And half of the group is like, no, let's do something weird and interesting with games. And so sometimes we fight about that. Generally, for me, it's just a place to connect and a way to connect and blow off steam. Yeah. And Roman, am I correct? You're a bit of a lapsed gamer, would you say?

Yeah, I don't know if I was ever really a gamer as such. I mean, I kind of – I don't do much gaming today. I kind of do passive like tower defense type games when I'm – I have to listen to a lot of – of audio for my job. Yeah. And so I need something that doesn't really require good timing. You know, that is something I can do while I'm doing something else. And so I love tower defense games and I play some fitness games like on an Oculus because I like to box and stuff like this.

And I injured my back boxing. for real when I punch stuff, like solid things. Trash can? Were you trying to find a turkey in a trash can? No, I wish. But there are no turkeys anywhere. I've tried. Just wait a couple months. turkey's everywhere that's true that's true so i love like supernatural i love like doing stuff like that it's pretty it's pretty fun for me um but my history is it's strange i you know i

I was involved in the development of some of the first voice chat in gaming in the 90s. Wow. And so I had a friend who I went to college with, and he developed this app called Roger Wilco. It was a standalone application that – It was behind your Baldur's Gate or your Dune or your tribes. And it ran on a 28-8 modem. It was super clean.

beautifully done and i was the first qa tester for the company and so i played a lot of early multiplayer games like that and um and um and in fact selling that is funny it's like selling that company is what paid for my three-year internship in public radio that led me into being a podcaster. Wow. I didn't know that. Talk about learning the lore. Cool. So yeah, so early, so I used to test games. So I played games like

Hours and hours with Roger Wilco running underneath it just to see if it works and if, you know, all the technology works. And that's so that's what I did for, you know, like mid late 90s. Yeah. Do you.

From that time, do you remember a game that you were like, it didn't feel like work, kind of, that you were like, I'm actually enjoying this one. It's Tribes. I was a sniper in the Renegade mod of Tribes, and I could come on to... a server and i could clear it because i just killed i just i would just annihilate and people would just leave as soon as they saw my name show up and i began to have to like come in with different names so that they would play longer but um yeah if you

Anyone knows tribes. That was like, that was, that was totally my game. I would get into that one beyond. I love your handle. Mendel. I was a genetics PhD student. So I went by Mendel. If you're this good at sniping and you don't come on as Mendel, I love the moment on a server when people are like, Oh, shit. Raspberry Ghost is Mendel. Raspberry Ghost is Mendel. Totally. I used to frustrate a lot. Everyone, excuse me of cheating and stuff like this. It was really like.

Just good. I'm just afraid of this. You can be mental. I want to because I also I love to box. I'm also a boxer. What is your VR boxing app of choice? I do a Supernatural. I like that one because I like the music. It's not – and I've done – what is the fight for –

I don't know. There's another one that's actually a video game game like that where you have an opponent. I've played that one too and it wears me out. That's great. And they're mainly like fitness games. They're not so much like or fitness apps. They're not. so much just like a boxing game so much. But they're probably gamified, right? Which is another example of how the world changes or the video game world changes the rest of the world, right?

For sure. Yeah, no, it really is motivating for sure and teaches you patterns and stuff like that. And it's good. It mainly just sort of gets me moving. I don't quite have the constitution to sit and play a game anymore. I kind of... I just like that's just not how I'm wired anymore. Even when I watch TV, I walk on a treadmill most of the time. And so fitness gaming is sort of my version of just like moving and playing games at the same time.

To the tower defense aspect of your gaming, though, I don't play a lot of those games, though, but I could see a game like that being a good second thing you're doing while listening to... I have edited my own voice for a long time, too. So, like, to whatever is getting me focused on not hearing my own voice and, you know, how horrible I sound when I speak, I'll... enjoy another activity as well. But I get distracted because the games that I pick are going to be like...

like Hollow Knight Silksong or like Elden Ring or something where I have to be so focused on the actions of what's going on. But like a tower defense thing, it's like a set it and forget it type of thing. What's the appeal for you there? Yeah. I mean, it's basically that it's like you can, there's a little bit of timing involved usually as it gets to the upper levels or whatever, but, but like your precise sort of, uh, you know.

Metroid style timing is not required. And so it's just sort of like you have to kind of be a present. And I just find that it actually kind of helps me focus because. I can drift listening. I have to listen to hours and hours of people talking like in terms of raw tape of people talking. I listen to a ton of podcasts and I listen to a lot of books on tape in quotes for my job to prepare for interviews. And I used to do this when I worked at WBUR. Sorry, WBUR. I worked at WBEZ in Chicago.

I used to sit at my desk and one of my jobs was listening to audio documentaries all day long. And I sit at my desk to play solitaire and people would walk by. And like I actually had like a manager sort of. make fun of me, like complain that I was playing, playing a game all day instead of doing my job. And it was like, I need this to do my job. Like I am listening to this stuff. And if I was just listening, I would doze off. I would not, I would lose focus.

So I started using games then to sort of keep my ears open, actually.

I've only ever been able to play video games at one job. I guess if you don't count this one, but we don't play video games when we're doing this. We could, we should. It'd be more interesting for us. I mean, people are constantly asking us to do the thing that you're saying right now, which is why, why don't you guys live? stream your games and it's for me it's that speaking while gaming is almost impossible yeah like like like i can't

I can't play a guitar and talk. Another avenue of perception, too. I just don't need it. Terrible. I worked at a restaurant in their office. taking uh reservations uh and so it was a a nice michelin star restaurant in town i'll say where it was afterward um and i burger king it was at burger king and uh i had just Yeah, I was with the chef's name, I think is Peter Pickle or something. But I would bring my switch.

to work and like i was like i'm really testing the limits of what i'm allowed to do here i think because this i'm very obviously playing a video game but my job is to answer the phone and put in a reservation on a computer If somebody calls to make the reservation, right? And then I'm calling people confirming reservations. But apart from that, I'm sitting at a desk.

for hours there's there's not another facet to that job so i was like i have to do something or i'm just never gonna come back here like it's like it's it's just then you're just trapped not doing anything and so i started to bring my switch to work and also i'm working at night right the restaurant closes at 11 so from like 9 to like 11 o'clock nobody's calling to make a dinner reservation i'm just chilling and getting paid and playing breath of the wild it was like actually

I think about that time a lot. I had less going for me. You had it good. But that was good. That was really, really nice. Isn't it funny how memories like that can just, of playing. games can just be so powerful and and and sort of like remind you of a time in your life i i feel like that's yeah i i don't know i just like when you were describing that i was i know exactly what you mean where you were like maybe it wasn't the best

job or the best situation, but like 9pm to 11pm, man, you were free to, you know, do your thing. I was just hanging out, but I couldn't leave in case somebody called, right? They couldn't call me off because what if somebody... Does call. Did want to call or something. They couldn't, they can't have somebody else.

doing that yeah they're doing something more important uh but if you were vr boxing maybe that would not fly but i feel like switch switch off and it's just like you're sweaty yeah if i had brought my uh dance dance revolution rig to the office. Probably not a good idea. Are you familiar with the VR game Superhot?

Yeah. Yeah. It's a game where you're like John Wick basically like dodging like or, you know, I guess Neo more like you're a Keanu Reeves type character in this game. And you're like dodging bullets and like throwing knives and stuff. That would not be great for. That's a very fun game. I played that one for sure. It rules. It is so, so fun. Ben, we do have to talk about this.

Your name on the chat right now is Battletoads Ben. And we did talk about this a little bit. I did ask you who your favorite Battletoad is. And you did say Zit. And that's the only correct answer, I think. Wart's tough. What's the other one? I don't remember. I remember wart. What's that? Isn't it wart rash? Rash. I was about to say one of them was piss and it's not piss.

If it was piss, you'd buy it. You'd sort of be like, I guess one of them is piss. You would not buy it because you were the child. They're all skin conditions. And your parents definitely wouldn't buy you a game where it's like, zit. Rash and Piss. Yeah, Battletoads much more. Yeah, yeah. They should. This is a free idea to anybody making a video game. Then as soon as you name your character Piss, I'm buying the game. Doesn't matter what kind of game it is. I'm there. But I was so excited.

When I was, you know, I've recently discovered the show and have become a listener. So I love what y'all do and the joy with which you do it. And I, but I, but you have like a, you have like a deep. You got a deep catalog, and I discovered that you have a Battletoads episode, I think, or the show has a Battletoads episode. Yeah. I'll send it to you. I think it's behind a paywall, but I'll get that over to you. Oh, my God. I would love to listen to it.

Because that was one of those games that, again, like there was a period of, and I should say, like, I tell a lot of people, I've told a lot of people, I think I've said this to Roman, when I was growing up, my parents wouldn't let me have a Nintendo. They wouldn't let me play video games until I was, you know, maybe 12. 14 years old so

I was always, I was the kid who would come over to your house and you'd be like, Hey, let's play outside. And I'd be like, Hey man, take me to the basement, show me the Nintendo. And like, if you have snacks, that's cool. And if you want to leave me there, that's also cool. I just need, please. gotta have it so your hands gripping tighter and tighter around his neck show me where it is man please um but like but Battletoads was one of those early games that I played and

And I recently, I guess I was like poking around about this and realized it's also like connected to Double Dragon, right? Like there was a combo version of the game, I think. There was Battletoads versus Double Dragon where they all teamed up. Or Battletoads X, Double Dragon. Yes, you're not incorrect. This is a game. Fair. And so like, but what I remember of Battletoads was it was a super hard game. I mean, I was, you know, I was maybe nine.

But like it was such a hard game. And it was, again, one of those games where you you I never progressed past. There was like a. There's a level where you're like on a surfboard or maybe it's more like you're jumping over the walls. And the walls flash for like a half second before they arrive on screen. Yes. And and I just that's one of those games that has like a sense memory for me where I just I I can I can I can remember the.

You know, the Doritos dust on my fingertips and the sweat of like trying to get past that level. And I don't know if I ever did, but I loved that game. It was a great game. It's funny that talking about your parents not letting you play video games reminds me of a very sort of semi-famous... in gaming circles, far side comic from the nineties or like maybe it was late eighties where it's a kid playing video games and the parents are daydreaming of a career in video games. And the joke is.

That'll never happen because like that's what the far side is saying is, oh, that'll never happen. These guys are all idiots. And now. You can make so much money playing video games that the comic doesn't make sense. The joke doesn't work. You can make a lot of money. You can affect... Politics in a very particular way. It's all very interesting. Sometimes too interesting. Yeah, it's a little too interesting. Actually, everybody calm down. Stop, actually.

Well, guys, before we get you out of here, I guess I don't know if this is necessarily spoiling or could spoil, but I have, I guess, another question just about video games and their impact on society at large. Yeah. Good or bad? One word answer. Bye. No, no. I think like I, well, what I would say is. So I have twins who are eight years old. My son is eight years old. He loves Minecraft. Yeah. He loves...

uh, he, he loves, um, the Harry Potter game. I have mixed feelings about, I don't know. I have a mixed feelings about the creator of Harry Potter, but my son loves that game. I, uh, I think that. games like Dungeons and Dragons, for instance, which, you know, inspired a lot of video games, they do teach you to number one, solve problems. And number two,

like have a safe space to try to solve problems and fail and try again. And I think that they can lead you, especially in the case of, of things like Minecraft, they can lead you to be really creative. Right. I also think that they are. You know, I mean, this is going to maybe sound ridiculous to some of your listeners because who, you know, whoever bought the latest, you know, PS5 Pro or whatever, but like...

They are also like relatively cheap. Like you can access games relatively cheaply. And I think having an interactive form of entertainment. that you can, that is, you know, relatively democratized, both in terms of playing, but also in terms of building now, like the fact that you can build games more easily. That's, that's a good thing. I think where it gets problematic is when, um, we, um, you know, I think when we allow any sort of tech company to, um, to not have any kind of, um,

consequences for, you know, whatever, like fomenting hate or, you know, and I think, you know, game companies have gotten better at policing this stuff, I guess. And, you know, maybe I shouldn't even use the word policing. I think it's complicated. No, for sure. But I think like, you know, it's, it can be addicting to you and like, that's a dangerous zone. And so, you know, um, limiting your limiting your time, I think is for me, that's an important thing, but ultimately.

It's like so much of the technology we use, it can be a positive thing. It can be a negative thing. It's just a tool and it's a technology. And we just have to be intentional and careful and thoughtful and caring in the way that we use it. And in the way that we use it together. Wow. That is. the most thoughtful thing ever said on this show. Yeah, truly. Public radio. What are you going to do? I don't know. I didn't think one of the frogs was called pig.

My favorite battle to the zit. Thank you. Same show where we're like, toilets look like you should drink them. But I'm curious, like Roman, what do you think? I feel like. Oh, I think good. I don't know. I don't really have – I feel exactly the same as you, but I think the dial is more towards good. I also just think that you can't sort of argue that the world would be a better or worse place without video games. You just could argue. It's just – it would be –

completely different world without them. And that's really the sort of the end of it. You know, like, it's just like... They're a huge part. And I think that in addition to you mentioning like there actually are, you know, careers in video games, as evidenced by like us being on a podcast now, is like it kind of trains you to think in ways that, you know, are.

are perfect for the modern world in terms of problem solving, in terms of, you know, just like quick thinking and dexterity and the sort of idea of if then, you know, decisions and complex decisions. And I, you know, I think they're great. I don't know. I have a hard time thinking. I do think that the social aspect of them that can sort of.

cause issues. It's the same social aspect that makes social media a problem, that makes, you know, tabloids a problem, like everything. When you get a bunch of people together, they can get together for nefarious ends as well as, you know, great ends. And so that's just part of it all.

Well, guys, I really enjoyed talking to you guys. Thank you so much for being here with us today. Why don't you guys plug the show again real quick, and then we'll get you out of here. Sure. The six-part series is called Hidden Levels. It's about... how video games affect the world. And it's a co-production of 99% Invisible, which is my podcast, and Endless Thread, which is Ben Brock Johnson's podcast. And it's going to come out wide on October 7th.

Yeah, we hope you'll listen. Let us know how much we got wrong. Just kidding. Guys, thanks so much. Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks, y'all. It was great to be with you. You can find Get Played wherever you get podcasts, and there's a link in the show notes. We'll see you Tuesday for episode one of Hidden Levels. This episode is brought to you by the Cosmopolitan of Las Vegas.

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