Misspelling with Tori Spelling and iHeartRadio Podcast.
Hi? Hi?
How are you?
I'm doing well? I got the memo. We both have our glasses on.
I know. I actually was trying to choose from so many that I got here, so I have to tell you, honestly, fangirl moment and the Donna Martin it's just I was sitting in my in my you know, room in Denver, Colorado, growing up, watching you, which is just it's just insane.
Oh my gosh. Well, after this whole thing with you, I'm going to be able to chant Donna Martin five hundred fortune eates? Is that right?
There?
You go?
You're gonna get me there, gonna get me up. Well, thank you for taking this time with me today. My name is and I'm a people pleaser, but I'm also a bomb ass business bitch. So can you help me get to where I need to be?
Yes? Of course we're gonna We're going to get you there for sure.
Oh boy, where do where do we even start? How did you start? Let's go with let's talk about you first?
Wow? Thank you. Honestly, I got my start in executive search by accident. I knew that when I graduated college. I grew up in Denver, and I said, I think I'm bigger than Denver and I need to move to a big city. And I was a finance major and all of that, and I came to New York City and I had, you know, a bit of gall on me to ask, you know, when I was interviewing, Hey, I want to be on Wall Street, Like I want to be close to the action, like get me, put
me in there. But I fell into recruiting by accident, and you know, it was just the luck of the draw. I was sitting across from a recruiter and they were pitching me all of these jobs and I'm like, I don't want to do any of those. And then they said, well, if you want to be a people person, right, you were in the people business as well, why don't you try recruiting. I'm like, I don't know what that is,
and so I kind of just dismissed it. And then they kept coming back to me and saying, I think you want to try this, and so I kind of just threw out my hands and said, fine, what do I have to lose. I was so young, and I knew I was smart, and I was like, okay, I'll figure it out. And that's where I got started. And I was recruiting quants on Wall Street, which is like the nerdiest thing you can ever do in your entire life.
And then I ended up, you know, getting starting my own firm, and then I sold it to a larger like public executive search firm, which was like the holy Grail of executive search. Now you're in the boardroom, you are with CEOs and boards and doing all.
Of your boardroom Sorry, I have to make a movie reference. Yeah, I digress for one second. Mommy dearest, did you see it? Of course in the boardroom, don't fuck with me, fellas, that's right.
So, by the way, like as a woman in the boardroom, it's it is such a different experience, right because a there's not many of us in there, and not many people that look like me in there, so you're kind of dismissed in the beginning, even though, as you said, we're badass bitches, you know, running businesses, and you kind of get overlooked or sidelined and you're just doing things.
I found myself early on doing a bit of that people pleasing or just you know, kind of nodding and going along with things as opposed to life voicing my opinion.
And what is it like now in the boardroom?
Now?
I am all filled with women? Oh, I mean not you. I wish I was still not there.
It's not like that. It's still not like that. It's not full parody yet. But I think it's getting a lot better. I think a lot of executive search. There's a lot of women in executive search, which is freaking awesome. But I would say boardroom wise, we're certainly not there. But I've come to a point in my career, like I'm forty seven years old. I've done a lot of things and I'm just like, you know what, I don't give a shit. I'm saying what I want to say.
That's it. And see, the art toy is about how you communicate, right, the art of communicating with polish and with gravity and with gravitas, And that's what really puts you in a different league. Right then they know not to mess with you because you're coming with facts, you're articulating it well, you're super polished. They know that they can't pull the wool over your eyes. That's what I want for.
You, That's what I want you to want from me that I want for me. And did you ever feel at a certain point in your career that, for lack of a better wording, you had to use your feminine wiles to kind of get noticed and heard.
Yeah, I think, you know, the thing about women is that we have this female intuition that there's a little bit of that, and there's a little bit of just you know, kind of playing up the femininity of being in business that you know, men end up kind of succumbing to, so you can use it to your advantage, right, there's a little bit of the last thing they want
is like the super aggressive type. And I would say that what's worked for me is a lot of humor, right Like, humor in the right spots makes you more human and it's a very neutralizing factor. It's not like you can be humorous as a female or a male, right and so like. But if women are funny and witty, it just there's a different dynamic because there's also this intuitiveness.
About us because we're so powerful.
That's true, That is so true.
It is.
I think we understall ourselves for sure, you know, in that respect, I.
Know for myself that it was a lot about finding my worth and realizing it coming to groups. I'm fifty two years old this year. This year. I don't know why I said this year because not really, because I'll be fifty three this year, but fifty two sounds a lot better.
For me.
I know, when I was younger, I mean the way I grew up, I grew up on a set. I grew up on a TV show that not only I felt like I had to prove my worth because it was my father's show, but it was also the biggest show globally, you know, it was in everyone's house, and so it was a huge responsibility. And I was came into it the quietest, you know, the shyest, definitely the funniest. And that's the part that I started to use as my way in to fit in with the group and
fit into my surroundings. Was I found. You know, I was the youngest of the group. Brian, Austin Green and I were the youngest. The others just a little bit older. Some I'm a lot older. But to get into conversations and stuff, you know, I would use a little funny joke or a little eye roll or a little physical you know, action and they would start laughing, and slowly
they were like, oh, this girl's funny. So that was my in and then it became just so hard to figure out where my brain fit in, if that makes sense, Like, okay, so I can make them laugh, but can I communicate with them on their level? Am I smart enough? And I grew up not believing I was smart enough. I think sometimes our education system fails us in ways when they're so an archaic, waste, so boxed into putting everyone in the same room, on the same level, and it's
just a way for everyone to just not succeed. So I thought, oh my gosh, I'm terrible at math, I'm terrible at history. Oh my gosh. So I can't talk numbers, I can't talk politics, I can't what can I talk about? I could talk about fashion, real good talking about fashion. But I did notice when I was young, I would use my humor and I would use my sexuality and not. I was never like that, like prowess on set, like
overtly sexual. But I did notice, you know, if I wore the cute tops and the mid drifts and the boys would comment they'd want to talk to me more. So then all of a sudden, you know, you do a show like nine O two and oh, and you're kind of a baby bird pushed out of your nest at twenty six years old, go into the world. You suddenly realize very fast that not every product you put out there becomes a you know, sensation like nine O
two and oh. And then you're out there, you know, auditioning every day, trying to get the next thing, trying to stay relevant, all while learning kind of how do I fend for myself in this world? At twenty six the humor didn't worry, they sexuality didn't work, and it's like, what is next? And that's when I started really sorry, am I talking too much?
No?
No, please, I feel really comfortable with you for some reason. And that's when I started to realize that I had a very creative brain and my dad was a big producer. I always say the apple don't fall far from the tree. I don't. I know it's a silly saying, but it's really really true. I grew up just watching him. I mean, on weekends when I was five years old, I didn't want to be outside playing. I was going through his scripts. My mom had his office in leather bound scripts of
every script he had done. It was like covering Wallda wall and I would go and pull down ones and start to look at them, have someone read them to me until I could read myself, and then I would sit there for hours by myself and just read and read and read and be like, I like this, here's the characters I like. So I knew that I had a brain to create. And I found once I went out there and kind of proved myself to people, got myself into rooms and let them understand where I was
coming from, it was a game changer. And I realize now at fifty two that I'm a total people pleaser, but a people pleaser in like life or if I am a hired hired gun so that sounds terrible an employee. When I am at the Helm, though, and I am running things and I am in a room, I can be in there and often you know, I'm in writer's rooms, I'm in network rooms, and there's some women, but sometimes
it can be the same predominantly male. When my business brain is on in those rooms, I like, you can't stop me, and I like, I can hear myself and I'm like, you're really very intelligent. You're really you deserve to be here, You're really creative. But then I leave that room and I'm like walking down the street and I'm like, oh, I'm sorry I bump into you. Oh I'm sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, every other word. So my
two sides find it hard to become one. So we're like, oh, no, it's it's it's in a nutshell you.
I think your experience is, while it's unique, there's pattern recognition, right. My job is to recognize patterns. And as I was listening to your story, you just happened to get an earlier start than everybody else. The stuff that you experienced in terms of your auditioning and this and that. It's the same as people coming out of college and interviewing. We're auditioning, right, We're auditioning for that job, that first job,
that second job, that third job. People are still auditioning right once your mid career, etc. And I think the brilliant part of what you said, which I think again, like every story is relatable. Right, I grew up in the motel business. I was running a motel since I was thirteen years old, and toory, can I tell you
I was embarrassed of that experience. Embarrassed. And when I fast forward twenty years later, I was in the boardroom with the CEO of SMP Global talking about his succession plan, and I brought up the fact that I was, you know, running my parents' motel at thirteen years old, watching nine O two to zero in the background. Right, that's serious. That is that God's honest truth. My sister would die if I if I told her that I was talking to But that's when I said that in the boardroom,
their jaws dropped because they were like, wait what. And so the admiration of grit and that experience in that boardroom is something that they valued that I didn't think they valued. Now, relating back to your story, you being in your dad's office seeing all of this, you have had this gift of experience. So when you are in that boardroom, you feel very confident because you have all of this skills that have been stacked as your gift
of experience, and that's why you feel so good. The reframe that I would say is that you know, it's not about you not being good at math or history or whatever. You have a different edge, right, And what you did was you outgrew your strategy right when you left nine OZHO two and zero. The game changed, but your early strategies weren't translating, so now you're translating them
in the boardroom. Right. But in terms of like the people pleasing part, I think where you have to really think about is just anchoring in that experience and saying I'm a strong person. I know where my boundaries are. I don't need to say sorry to everybody, and I don't need to be sorry about, you know, the things that I bring to the table, even if it is kind of bumping into somebody on the street or whatever. That's not your fault, right, maybe they were walking crooked,
they bumped into you. And I think just going to.
That how I apologize for taking a breath of air. It's it's really bad.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think like redefining sort of your identity internally. Tori is right. You're not trying to prove you belong. You already know you do. You've just been treating it like it's been a temporary state.
I tend to keep myself really small because I don't want to bother I don't know, I don't if I keep myself small, then everyone will like me because they won't feel left behind.
No, that is your moment to not do that. Listen, you have had this sort of very public history, right in the sense of having that acclaimed fame and going through your life very publicly, and that is your opportunity to double down and say I am owning this.
I'm really good at Blackjack thinks so different numbers like you know, like.
It's your time to again. Like I said the word anchor, you have so much experience, like you, you should be leading the charge in that. You should not. You should be unapologetic in that right. No one has the experience that you do. Why are you apologizing for it?
I don't know. That's why I'm here with you. I don't know. No I do, I must know.
I must let me ask you this. When that happens right in the room, when you're in power, you're not thinking about anybody else, are you? Or you just you're just thinking about the work. The idea is the outcome? Is that right?
Yeah? It's all about the process, yeah right.
So why is it that afterwards you feel like you need to regulate other people's You know.
I think I feel a lot I feel others feelings, Like as soon as someone can walks in a room, I can feel how they're feeling, and I adapt to that, and I think sometimes not in a good way, or I overcompensate to make them okay for whatever is going on, which it's none of my business. So I don't know why I do that.
Because you're a feeler.
Yeah, I'm a feeler and I am intuitive. So I say, I don't know how to play the board game of chess, but I play the life's game of Chess brilliantly like leader of the Board because I know how to handle people. I know what they can hear and they can't hear.
And in a business situation, that has behooved me a lot because in my field, I deal with a lot of actors and not just on sets as a fellow actor, but when I'm producing a project in writing, I have to deal with talent, and talent comes with ego, and that's okay. Humans come with ego. There's different forms of it. It doesn't always have to be negative. But I have really tapped into how to approach each person differently to
get the best outcome for them and the project. So I think That's why when I deal with actors a lot, and especially females, I will tend to take a back seat. But then I don't know how to pull myself back up to sit side by side.
So what I would say with that is that, look, we need to flip what you think, which is what you're saying is over accommodating into sort of your executive superpower, but with a boundary. So I can tell you right now what you're experiencing is not weakness. It's high EQ. But you don't have a control system. So what you're starting what is emotional intelligence?
Oh?
Thanks, right, you have a high degree of emotional intelligence because you're feeling what other people are. You know your audience. The best high EQ people understand their audience, and then you tailor your message and your delivery to what that audience wants. That's super high EQ. And then also self awareness like who am I in that room versus you know who everybody else is?
Right?
But I think what you just described at sort of like elite level emotional intelligence is that most people can't read the room, and you're reading individuals inside the room. So you're not just a feeler, You're an operator. So now you're adjusting your approach to what each person needs. That's not people pleasing, that's influence. And that's what I want to reframe for you today, Right, your people pleasing
moment is actually your ability to influence them. The only difference is that between influence and self abandonment is intention. Hm When when you're in a writer's room, that's that's where I wanted to land. Right, So when you're in a writer's room or producing, you're using that skill on purpose. Right. You're reading the ego, you're calibrating the language, you're managing outcomes.
That's power. But when you're walking down the street apologizing, you're using that same skill unconsciously to make other people feel uncomfortable. So the goal is to isn't to stop being intuitive. The goal is to decide when it's a tool and when it's a habit.
I think in Tory in the Wild is people know who I am and I don't know. You know, when I pass them on the street and they look me, you know, it's a split second that they get one moment, you know of who do we think she is? And who is she when we encountered her? And I always smile just because that's who I am. But I just feel like I don't want them to think I still am.
There's still an old story in my head of preconceived notion from coming on to the set of nine at sixteen, of people thinking, oh, well, her father's you know rich, you know she's probably going to be a bitch. You know she she's all very spoiled. All the assumptions. I know none of that's true. Anyone that works with me knows none of that is true. But I still carry that old story and go above and beyond to prove to people on a daily basis that probably not that
strangers don't matter, but strangers don't matter. Like I'm trying to prove to every single person I encounter, like, look at me, I'm so nice. I'm nice, nice, nice.
Yeah. Yeah, here's what I say to you know, I'm going to talk to the to the the boss part of you right now. I think that when I coach my executives, the one thing that I do tell them is to own your narrative, and I'll break down what that actually means. Right, anytime you run into somebody, or anytime anybody encounters you, there's a split second assumption about you, whether they can read it on your face, you happen to be more public than the others. I totally get
it right. I mean I've had a little bit of a glimpse of that, given you know, all the stuff that's happening on my Instagram. I'll go into Grand Central station and someone will recognize me, and if I happen to have a you know, not so great, you know, bitch face on, it stops me too. So I've I've had one iota of what you've experienced, and it's like you catch yourself sometimes. But going back to like owning your narrative right again, you said it yourself that people
on the street, it doesn't matter. You might be having a bad day, you might be having a good day. You might not be smiling as much, you may be smiling too much, whatever it is. But when you're in a room when people are you're going to encounter people now one on one, when I say own your narrative is get in front of it, because what you're experiencing is they've made assumptions, they're questioning toy and then you feel like you're in a hole and you're digging yourself
out to get to neutral. Yes, when you don't own your narrative and get in front of it, saying, hey, this is what I'm here to do today, this is you know, whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish, get in front of it. So now when you own it, there's no question from behind.
Okay. So let's say I'm walking down the street. I'm owning my narrative. What is going to keep me from when someone's walking straight on and they don't move aside me going oh, I'm sorry and moving aside.
I think that part is just what if you didn't move?
I think about it all the time all the time, and I'll see them coming and I'm like, what if today Today is the day where I'm going to hold my power and I'm just going to keep walking and they're going to have to move around me, and then I will wait to the last second and I go oh, and I veeer off. I can't do it. I'm like nervous thinking about it. Right now, girl, I'll do it.
I saw the emotion in what you just said, and honestly, okay, because you haven't done it, do it once and it's going to make you madly uncomfortable, and then you're going to do it again, and then you're going to do it again, and then that's going to become your new normal. Like doing something uncomfortable is where you grow. And if you can't get past this one thing about you know, not stepping aside, I never step aside. It's like you go on me right, Like you know, I got so
much stuff going on. I'm like on the phone, I have all the bags, all the things whatever, like it is what it is right. I am the same way in the boardroom. I am bringing all of me. And if you're gonna have all of these machinations of what you want to discuss, but I know what I have to focus on. That's what we're gonna do right now.
I have enough of emotional awareness of like, yeah, you know, I have to do the right thing from a professional standpoint, But at the same time, like ten toes down, Tori, ten toes down.
Other time, grip my toes. Don't tiptoe around it.
Don't tiptoe around. What are you tiptoeing for? What are you so afraid of?
I don't know. Tell me.
I mean, I think it's just more about.
I keep giving you the same example, but I'm sure there's a billion other examples in my day.
It's the over compensation part. I think what you're.
Not doing is you're not so what if they don't like me?
Right? But why do you care about that so much?
I don't know. That's the problem. That's the real problem. And I keep myself small and not equal with partners and business people so I can.
Exercise for you.
I don't want them to not like me.
I have a I have two sort of tips and tricks for you.
Okay.
One is the first sort of tool that I can give you is play out your fears. What I mean by that is, go in your head, imagine that scenario and play the fear all the way out, right, Like if I do this, if I say this, then they'll do this, then they'll do this. Okay, fine, now you've gotten it out of your system. I guarantee you whatever is in your head that's the worst case scenario is not going to happen. It's just not going to happen
the way that you think it's going to happen. So that's what I say, play out your fears so you just kind of like release it from you And the second tool that I'll give you is that I call it the so what filter, like okay, and you do it three times, right, like Okay, I am in this situation, so what? And then you go a layer above that and say, okay, well if that happens, then this will happen. So what. And then you get to the third one.
There is where you need to concentrate, right, It's that third level where you need to concentrate and say, that's what matters to me, that's the impact that I need to make. So I don't know why I'm worrying about this part, right, So you reverse engineer into it. So those are kind of like the tools that I can give you in that whatever scenario you're facing, you don't get paralyzed or stuck or in the same loop of people pleasing.
Right, because I tend to then once I'm in that loop of people pleasing, I keep energetically bringing the same type of people in and then it's a no win.
Because look, the woman you are in those rooms, you don't have to apologize for existing. Jesus Christ, you know this is bringing you into everyday life.
And yes, honestly, half.
The time, half the time in your scenario, that other person will move.
Oh my gosh. But then I'll feel bad the rest of the day, don't you dare. I'll be cooking dinner thinking, oh, she met at me. Oh man. I mean, so there is the personal side, but I still find myself doing it. I mean bullying, Like it's so weird to talk about bullying at our age. You're younger than me, but yeah, but it exists. Maybe not, you know, we can redefine the word. Maybe it's not the way we found it in high school or you know, growing up, but it
does live in our lives. And I get really scared of bullies because I feel like I can read bullies. I sometimes with them it's about I do back down fully because I can't navigate them. I can tell them what they need to hear so they understand the situation. I end up apologizing to them and really making myself small.
And I found this in my personal life. I've found this in my business life, and it's it's tricky and there's always I feel like, going to be people in your workplace that you work with that are going to be that way, and it's about finding the way to navigate it and own it, so I belong there as well. And that's a real tough one for me.
Yeah, And I think like taking your scenario and kind of putting it in the workplace, there's always like the toxic worksplace, and you probably of like a bullying manager or whatever. And I think the bully dynamic, it looks like you can read those bullies, you can kind of anticipate them. You can probably even manage them.
I can manage them, But I think, but it hurts my soul, like it's really wears on.
Because you're still giving them control of the interaction.
But they need control.
Who cares what they need?
Because because.
Because the moment you start adjusting to keep them calm, they've already set the rules of the game.
Right, So what if they've set the rules for decades and then you can't unset those rules.
No, there's never any okay, there's never any rules that can't be bent or broken or rewritten. I just don't believe that our constitution, right, we are still doing amendments and we're still passing different laws. Like there's nothing that is just set in stone, let's be honest, right, And so if you think about it that way, dealing with like these difficult personalities or bullies or whatever. Your goal is not to win them over. Your goal is to hold your position right.
And what that's you can't do those two. See that's where I fall short.
But what that looks like is that you are calm, you're neutral, and you're direct. So I'll give you an example. You say, so if they they're bullying you, you know, victorium, we need to do this, or they're bulldozing you. Whatever, you say something like, I hear you, here's how I see it.
I'm good at that.
Good another one. That's one perspective, here's the direction we're taking, or I'm not aligned with that approach.
You?
But did you notice what I did? There? There's no apology, there's no over explaining, and there's no shrinking.
See I would say what you said and then i'd probably afterwards go sorry, is that okay?
Yeah? Exact?
Okay? Are you okay? I said that right now?
Now you just open them up to Hey, there's room for us to like challenge her again, there's room for us to because what you're doing is you're not making up a statement. You're leaving room for them to do more. Right, or you're leaving room for them to bully you in some other capacity. Right, And so bullies don't respect accommodation, right, they respect clarity. And so you're if your fear, your fear isn't actually the bully, it's the discomfort of not accommodating them.
Yes, oh my god, you just solved my whole life. Now how do I do it?
I mean you're going to practice. That's how you're going to do it. You're going to make these very short statements and you are going to, I don't know, press your finger into your thigh every single time you want to say sorry or something else beyond that what I just told you. I hear you. But we're going to move in this direction, press your finger into your thigh,
saying don't you Tory, don't you dare say sorry? You're done? Finished, Sit in that awkward silence, let them squirm, and I guarantee you're going to feel even more powerful after that.
Now, what if I hypothetical I'm in a situation where it's an ensemble like like nine oh two and zero was, or it can be a partnership, you know, and I'm not the only quote unquote talent I hate referring to myself that way, but the on camera on air whatever personality I tend to sometimes get treated less than with accommodations than other people who have a stronger voice. How do I achieve where it's like, well, fair is fair.
But you know they say, you know the person that doesn't ask for it, The person goes along with everything sometimes tends to kind of get pushed aside, and it's the person that's like, no, I'm doing it this way. That way, the strong personality gets more, How can the nice one get more?
Do you ask for it?
Sometimes?
No?
Sometimes no, because I have to like believe that people treat people fairly.
So the important question here is because what you're describing again has nothing to do with fairness and everything to do with signal in group environment, ensembles, partnerships, teams, whatever. People don't get treated based on what's fair. They get treated on what signal they will accept. And in all of that stuff that you just told me, you needn't ask for it.
Yeah, yeah, I guess so, But I guess how do I make my voice? So it seems to me and this is all I've ever seen, and I'm trying to unhear. That part is the person that's not nice gets more the person that you know.
Yes, what you're talking about delivery there, right, Because I think here's here's the misconsumption is that if you say it in a short like no is a complete answer, right, no is a complete answer. Yeah, that's it. And so what you're what you're struggling with is that you are you don't want to sound bitchy or you don't want to sound aggressive. You don't want to sound the thing is because your delivery is it's all in the delivery
of how you say it, right. So I'm not asking you to take all of your incredibly valuable experience and anchor it into something that's very loud and aggressive, right, because you're saying to me louder personalities kind of becomes sort of the default decision makers. And you don't want
to do that, you don't want to be difficult. But what you have to do, Tori, And remember we started this conversation about it's the art of communication, right, It's the art of polish and delivery and how you deliver that information and how you communicate it. So I think where the missing link here is you need to become very clear. That's not about being difficult, it's about clarity. Right,
And this is what it sounds like in real life. Right, you're going to say something like I'm good with what I ever works, right, Instead, here's what works best for me. That's not bitchy, no nice, or it's not. But but you're still in this position of like, I want to be nice. Yeah, being nice is not the same as being professional or clear. It could be, but it doesn't have to be. And you keep relating it back to
the nice cities that you want to inject in everybody. Right, So instead of saying sure, I can adjust, maybe say something like I can do that. Here's what I would need in return.
It's in my business.
While you're doing it, you're you're smiling while you're talking to me, smiling, right, but like you're having a very difficult conversation. This is a you know, yes, you're you know. I'm listening intently to you. And I think that these are still very difficult conversations to have, right because you're
being very vulnerable here. But I think that it's okay not to preface or gift wrap all of your language in this like shiny wrapper because at the end of the day, what's important to you the gift or the rapper the gift, right, So the gift is making sure that your messaging and your communication is clear, not the smile or bitchiness that you're putting on the wrapper to get it across.
I do find a lot of times that is broken down with the communication of text because people can't see the emotional intent that you're putting forth. It can be misread, and so the.
Text needs to be a call.
And now all definitely, businesses are changing so much, sometimes so much of it is on text, and I grew up terrified of the phone. I don't know why. Yeah, fine, yeah, but I'm now getting back to the place where it's like, gosh, if so much is going to be lost in translation with the written word, I would rather have the spoken word to clarify what is going on.
Yeah, I agree with you. And like I said, sometimes you know, a text is just as good as anything that you really need to get your point across. I think here's what's going to happen. I guarantee if I look through your phone, there's a lot of over explaining over text as well. You have to be honest instead of just like one sentence. I couldn't actually do this exercise. When when we get off this cale, go back through
your phone. If someone asked you for something, how many messages did you send instead of just one sentence, like.
If they ask me a favor or ask huh? I also passive aggressive, so that comes into play too.
You are yeah, I don't believe you, but okay.
I can't passive aggressive.
I can't see that?
Is that an old story? But everyone keeps telling me that my whole life.
I think you're too busy people pleasing to be passive aggressive.
Well, sometimes when I'm too busy over explaining and people pleasing them, they stay back to me. Stop being so passive aggressive with me, my friend does. She says it all the time to me, and I'm like, my heart, like, I get like that because growing up my family was very passive aggressive, so I always never want it to
be that. So like when she says that, when I'm like saying, oh, I'm sorry, never mind, I'll do it or something, She's like stopping cut the passive aggressive, and I'm like, oh, I didn't think I was being Well.
You know why right there, Tori? Because you decided that you were going to again say sorry and all that they think you're hiding behind your stories of like what you really mean, and that's what's translating into passive aggressive right. Oh, Passive aggressive communication usually just comes from one thing. You
have a preference, but you're not stating it directly. Yes, right, so it comes out sideways, through over explaining, apologizing, or backing off mid sentence and to the other person that just doesn't feel nice, it feels unclear, which again going back to my point around you know, the more clarity and succinctness you have without the apologizing at the end, drop the apology at the end, tory, just drop it,
Just drop it from your vocabulary. You said your point, You're done, and I guarantee you people will start shifting. You start shifting your behavior. You watch where other people shift their behavior because you've made the shift. You are now different. That allows them to be different with you.
Right.
You said you grew up around a passive aggressive communication household. Right, so you're not trying to be that, but instead of going direct, you're going softer, and softer isn't clearer? Yeah, so I think in your mind what I'm trying to reframe with you. If I am allowed to be your executive coach for a minute, please, direct communication is not aggressive. It's respectful because now I don't have to second guess what the f is Toys telling me? Does she mean it?
Is she? You know, just saying it just to you know, be a passive aggressive leader? Right. Clarity is kindness. Ambiguity creates tension. You don't want to be in that business, Toy. I don't want to be in the business of ambiguity. No, So instead of catching yourself saying, oh, sorry, never mind, I'll just do it, you just say, actually, here's what I prefer, say it with a smile. By the way, I guarantee your friend will appreciate it, because now she
won't go back thinking she passive aggressive? Is that what she really meant? Am I right?
Yeah?
It sounds correct. Just how do you undo fifty two years of saying sorry?
I get I get the undoing right, But I think I think that my practical rule for you is say the thing, say it once, say it cleanly, without apology.
When you try that on one person, you're going to try it on the next, and the next, and the next and that'll be your new normal. You rehearse lines right right for a living, that's what you did. How many times did you have to rehearse those lines?
Not many? Because I have a photographic memory.
Well freaking excellent. I'm about to send you an email about all your little practical tools.
Look to see that.
But I would say, for for the most time, you have fat photographic memory. But there's a rehearsal, and so you do it again and.
Two or three times, right, and you do you know?
And so with this, the stuff that we're talking about is I don't expect you to be perfect every single time, right, at least out of the gate. But you're going to practice this and you're going to do it again and again and again, and then that dialogue is going to become your new normal.
Oh, that new normal would be great. I just wanted to imprint on my soul, my being.
Well, you're a you're a good person. And as as most people are innately good people, for the most part, we have to give the benefit to humanity. Right of there's there's good intent, or you have to receive people with positive intent, which is how you want to be perceived. Yes, well, yes, right, So even if you just know that there's positive intent
and that's how you want to approach it. That's why it's really really important to be very clear, right and so you're saying it with positive intent, and if you know that that's coming from a good place, you don't need to be in the prove it game. I don't need you to prove it to me that you're a good person. I can see that we've had a really wonderful conversation. True, But for you, I want you to hold your power in that room.
I know I want to hold my head up, hie, especially because I'm getting older and the more I hold it down, it's just getting more wrinkly. Got it, I got it? We hold it up, pie right now now on.
All the creams and all the yeah, I hear you. I agree.
But I feel like I have so much that I want to do in this world. My dad was such an amazing, unique human in the sense that he was kind, like so kind, would talk to anyone and everyone, and really liked people. And I really like people. I love people, and I'm interested in people and their stories. And at the end of the day, he just wanted to entertain them,
make them smile. That's it, And that's really my big goal in this world is with so much going on, we all have such hard lives within our lives that no one knows about, you know. I just want people to be entertained. I used to say that was by giving them TV shows. No one really watches TV anymore, but you know, whether it's in the theater, whether it's on your television, on your computer, on your phone. I want to be able to deliver that. I think I
have a lot to offer. I think my one of my superpowers is I don't know why I feel so confident talking to you look at me. I would never talk this way anyone else. I'd be like, don't let them know. I'm smarter worthy. But I think one of my superpowers is being, like I said, to read people, but also being able to change with the times. I'm able to be a forward thinker of what is to come next, and I think that's a really special tool.
So I just need to get out of my own way and out of the way of the people that want to keep me down to get to that so I can rule the world.
But can I tell you you doing You're doing it now? Right? Like what you just said is actually incredibly clear. You just need to own it up here. And if your goal is to it, I would say, actually, your goal isn't just to entertain people, it's to move people, right. Entertainment is the vehicle. Yes, connection is the outcome. And what you described on reading people and adapting and seeing what's coming next, that's not just intuition, that's taste, it's timing.
It's emotional intelligence. And I think what great creators and producers and executives, that's what they're built on. And so for you, it's not a capability gap. You have a permission gap. And I don't know who's permission you're waiting for, but if it's everybody else's, the answer.
Is yes, whose permission am I waiting for? I don't know, is it my own?
Probably you're doing all of this stuff right like if you're waiting for few, if you're waiting to feel like this is the version of you everywhere you already have it. You are accessing it selectively, But you said it yourself. You can just sit in room, speak clearly, lead the conversations, own your ideas. This podcast, like this is the modality in which you are putting all of this into the world. And so I feel like, you know, listening to you,
I've connected those dots. It's not about being more confidence. It's about stopping that on off switch right of like my people pleasing am I not your ceiling isn't your talent. It's where you stop letting your self show up fully. And I think in this modality, like I said, if I were coaching you, I'd focus on one thing. Same voice in the room, as on the street, as on this podcast.
That's it so okay to still giggle?
Yeah, it is, it is. I Like I said, we started this conversation with you know, the humor in the boardroom. Humor goes a long way, and you know, people want to be with nice people. People want to talk to like fun people, right, like being comfortable. You're comfortable with me. I'm listening intently. And trust is a superpower. Right, We had a very honest, vulnerable conversation. That's part of your superpower.
Thank you. Where can my listeners find you? Oh, what's your address? I'll be over in the next hour.
Well, I'm the elite recruiter on Instagram and TikTok and all of their and yeah, depolybias dot com. But yeah, we're helping all kinds of people just kind of get out of their own way and get unstuck and move forward.
And do you believe it's never too late to get unstuck and move forward? Oh?
Never?
Ever, What is the oldest client you ever had come to you and say I want to change?
Gosh, I've coached people well into their seventies.
Wow, very cool. Yeah, I love that I'm going to change in my fifties, so you won't have to coach me in my seventies.
How's that? But look, I'm glad to be your personal cheerleader. I think you already have what it takes. You just needed that that extra nudge and clarity on And you don't need my permission, just permission yourself right to know that no is a full sentence.
I love that My thing that I tell people is no is the first word towards yes. Because in entertainment a lot you get the word no, no, no, And I always say, just get me in the room, get me in the room, al convince someone sees very good at that.
And that's true for that scenario. If you if you've read the book by Chris Voss. Never split the difference, right like never never take no as your first answer, right, There's always a negotiation. There's an avenue for that when you know you want to do something with intent, right like, don't take the first no. But I think when people are asking something of you that you know you can't deliver on, then know is a complete sentence.
Oh, and not no ish or not no.
Correct, not no sorry, But.
I know I have to be okay saying no, and I'm still a nice person.
You are a nice person. That's a fact.
Can I say I'm going to tell you right now with absolution it's a nice note. Can I say that?
Yes, you can.
That's not clear though, but.
Then full stop, or say I'm saying no but nicely.
Oh okay, Right. If you feel like you have.
To justify a rapper, if you have to put a little rapper on it, then say it out loud. It's okay, I'm saying no, but it's a nice no. Thank you.
I'm saying thank you. Helps I'm saying no, but it's a nice no. I'm saying no nicely.
That's the new Tory way. That's that's what you're going to do. If that's what makes you feel comfortable saying no, do it that way. Everyone has a style that's going to be your style.
Watch out world. Saying no when she's sticking to it