From Schwartz Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven am a must leader. Yayazinha was top of Israel's most wanted list for his role as the architect of the October seven attacks before he was killed last week. He had managed to evade Israeli intelligence all year. He was thought to be hidden in tunnels under Gaza, possibly using hostages as human shields, but it wasn't sophisticated intelligence that did him in. In the end, his death came as something
of a surprise. The relatively junior soldiers who killed him didn't know who he was until later. Regardless, Sinhwa's death represents a significant win for Israel, with Prime Minister Benjamin net and Yahoo describing it as a settling of the score. Today, host of the ABC podcast Take Me to Your Leader and former Middle East correspondent hay Mish McDonald on Yahya Sinhwar's legacy and how his death were really shaped the
conflict in the Middle East. It's Monday, October twenty one, Hamish, As we know, Israeli troops killed Yahya Sinoa last week. Can you tell me how it happened?
Yeah, pretty extraordinary set of circumstances, and in a way, the ultimate scenario came about by accident. It was actually a fairly junior brigade of Israeli troops that stumbled upon him. Initially it was a drone that flew into an abandoned building in the Gaza strip and they found a fighter a militant inside.
It was idea of reservist, not special lots, who came across him, what by chance during a routine operation in Rafa yesterday, flying that drone into a building after a gun battle, spotting an armed man sitting in a chair, his face covered and bleeding after being shot.
When you look at the video, and bearing in mind Israel has released the video footage from the drone, it's not obvious that it is ya Ya Sinoa. His head's wrapped in a kafir scarf, he's covered in dust. And then there's this moment where after staring at the drone for quite a number of seconds, he then throws a stick towards it. It's a futile attempt, but obviously many in Gaza are interpreting it as a final act of defiance.
A mass which is reeling from the killing. It was accused Israeli military of blatant lights and a failed theatrical performance in its portrayal of Sinoa during that past twelve months as a statement.
Moments later, we're told there was a strike on that building. There's also some reporting suggesting that an Israeli soldier entered and shot him. It was afterwards that they noticed the resemblance to ya Ya Sinhwa, and there's a number of features apparently that they were looking for, one of which was his distinctive teeth. They then took DNA samples away, and of course Sinwa had been in prison in Israel for many years, so they have DNA samples of him.
Those were tested and Israel's confirmed that it was in fact Yaya Sinowa. But given the incredible intelligence and military effort that had been put in over the last year to finding and killing Sinowa, it's pretty remarkable that it happened this way.
In the end, Amishi profiled Yaya Sinoa. What can you tell me about him?
So? Sinwa is a pretty fascinating character because his story really mirrors the longer arc of the Palestinian story. You know, he was brought up in one of these refugee camps in the Gaza Strip. His parents had been dispossessed early on, and really the chapters of his life mirror the various stages of fighting and conflict and then a sort of
dulling down of that acrimony at different times. He's been in prison a number of times in Israeli prisons, but really where he emerged as a figure within the militancy of the Gaza Strip was in the early days, the early stages of Hamas, and really he was an enforcer. Part of his role was to identify, look for, and then punish anyone that was seen to be a collaborator
with the Israelis. And so he actually earned this nickname the Butcher of Khan Yunus, which is part of the Gaza Strip, in relation to the deaths of four Palestinians. They were said to be or alleged to be collaborating
with the Israelis. They were identified and brutally killed, and so those four deaths, as well as the deaths of two Israeli soldiers, that ultimately led him to being captured by the Israelis, interrogated, and then ended up in an Israeli prison for a pretty significant amount of time.
So what do you know about that time in prison and how it's shaped him.
Well, it was formative and a lot has been written and said about this because during that time he started to identify with other Palestinians that were held in the Israeli prison system. But he also learnt and studied Hebrew. He studied Israeli and Jewish history and culture. He really wanted to use that time to get to know what he saw as his enemy. He thought this was a strategic way of getting his head around what their vulnerabilities
and weaknesses were. We spoke to the guy that interrogated him.
You are speaking now direct with the interrogator of Hinwah and knew him better than his mother and mother better than anybody in the world.
His name is Michael Koobi. He's a former senior intelligence officer eventually led the Shinbert. He said that he got to know Sinwha better than his mother did, better than he probably knew himself. Such was the depth of those interrogations. How many hours in total did you you interrogate ya Ya Sinha?
For I interrogated all the Hamas leaders, include the Arsinoir. He himself, I interrogeted more than one hundred and eighty hours during two months. Of course, I started speaking with him. He said, if you want to kill me, kill me. I want to be a shahid. That was the first sentence that he stated the interrogation.
She Hid is a masa.
Yeah, that's right. So I told him, look, you're not going to be shahid.
So what's really striking about the comments from Michael Kirby when I sat down and spoke to him this year, is that these interrogations that he conducted with Sinuatu place in nineteen eighty eight, so we're talking about decades ago. And what he points out is that he then said he wanted to be a master.
So I took him immediately to my rooms in war start opening his mouth, and he told me about the Hammas, about their plan, how they want to enter to Israeli Kibutim, to Israeli settlement, to Israeli cities, how they built their power at that time that they haven't missed yet. They have only arms and weapons that they got from Sainae. You know. He told me that they plan to kill many many goose. That was the plan look at.
And he also detailed specific plans that he had in his mind for storming over outside of Gaza into Southern Israel, going into the kibbutz and killing and taking prisoners from Southern Israel. So I guess, given what's happened on October seventh and since, puts that into a vastly sharper light.
In twenty eleven, Yeah, yeah, Sinma was released as part of a massive prisoner swap. Israel freed more than a thousand prisoners in exchange for a single Israeli soldier who been captured by Hamas. Once out, Sinewa rose through the ranks of a mass becoming the military leader in Gaza before taking over as political and military leader earlier this year after the break. The future of Hamas Now that Sinhwara is gone, I much. Now that Yahyah Sinwara is dead, what does that mean for Hamas?
So the death of Sinowa is a serious blow to Hamas, but of course it does not kill off Hamas as an organization. There will be a new leader, but at the moment it's not obvious exactly who it will be. What some are hoping is that this moment may present an opportunity for Israel to deal with whoever the new leader or leaders are that emerge to offer them some kind of relief, if you like, from the conflict, even
you know, some assurance that they won't be killed. In return for the remaining hostages.
Hamas is holding one hundred and one hostages in Gaza or citizens of twenty three countries, citizens of Israel, but citizens of many other countries. Israel is committed to doing everything in our power to bring all of them home, and Israel will guarantee the safety of all those who return our hostages. But to those who would harm our hostages, I have another message. Israel will hunt you down and bring you to justice.
That said, given where this conflict is, it's possible that Israel simply makes the decision that it has Hamas on the back foot, that it is bit by bit taking out the leadership and the capabilities of Hamas, and that
it can find its own way to those hostages. But there's an entirely different part to this question, which is not just about what the practical implications are for her mass and whether Hamas Is been damaged through the death of Sinwa, but Israel itself has this discussion and often about whether what's happened since October seven is actually destroying, pulling apart the idea of Hamas, or simply emboldening it.
I mean, we obviously know the numbers of civilians killed in Gaza since October seven, but there's also young people that are living through this and surviving. What does this experience do to them? Does this make them afraid of Israel in the future, or does this give them some kind of strength and resolve to continue the fight that
Yaya Sinowa has so clearly marked out. You know, part of the calculation for Israel right now is it's trying to say to the neighborhood, the penalty for acting against us, for threatening us is too great. Whether or not that's the way it's being interpreted, I think it's too soon for us to know.
How do you think the death of Sinwaal will change Israel's plans in the region.
Clearly, this does change things. But similarly, you know, there's also fresh reporting out about an intelligence leak from the United States over the weekend that shows that Israel has preparations in place to strike at Iran Directly, there's been no let up in the fighting against Tesbola in Lebanon. There's also been no real sign that fighting is let up in the Gaza Strip either. So you know, clearly
there is this intention to get the hostages back. But given you know, I keep going back to some of the initial conversations I had with current and former Israeli intelligence and military leaders in the days after October seven, and you'll also remember some of this from nettna Who's own public commentary. He talked about wanting to create a new reality for Israel in the Middle East, that whatever it was, you know, before October seven, would not be
the case after. And so I think it's always worth bearing that in mind in terms of trying to charge or estimate what it is that Netnyahu and the Israeli military are prepared to do in terms of seeking the outcomes that they want. There's been so much pressure domestically in Israel all the way along. You know, it's not one homogeneous grouping. There's a lot of disagreement. You know, remember there was a war cabinet that's fallen apart. There's
also a kind of creaky coalition government in place. But Netnya, who's popularity ratings in Israel, it must be said, you know, have really bounced back in recent months as he's stepped up a gear in terms of taking the fight, particularly to Hesbalah.
Hey mich Does this moment get us any closer to a cease fire or last in peace?
Look, there's some that hope it will. Certainly in Washington, optimism is probably too strong a term, but the fact that Sinoa was so critical to any decisions around hostage releases. Remember that even though he was underneath Gaza in this tunnel system for many months, using human couriers to get messages to and from him back to negotiators in Doha, he was the individual who had the decision on any
hostage release. And it may be it may be possible that whoever replaces him may take a different view, that perhaps this is an opportunity for a different course to be charted. But certainly the messaging that's coming out of Hamas and its backers like Iran would not suggest that now is necessarily a mood or a climate for peace.
Amish, thank you so much for your time, Thanks for having me. You can listen to Hamis McDonald's profile of Yaya Sinoa on his podcast Take Me to Your Leader. The new season is all about dictators and demagogues and it's out now, also in the use today, Bianto has been sworn in as Indonesia's new president. Sabiante replaces outcoming President Joco Woododo, who has led the world's third largest
democracy for the past decade. Seventy three year old President Sabianto is a former special forces commander who won the February election with nearly sixty percent of the vote and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that the people who attempted to assassinate him by targeting his home with a drone have made a bit of mistake.
Now.
The hero's wife were at home at the time of the attempted attack, according to a spokesman for the Prime minister. While Hezbilla did not claim responsibility for the drone attack, the group said it carried out several rocket attacks on northern and central Israel. I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM. Thanks for listening, and if you haven't yet, please take a listen to the three parts series we aired last week. It's called This is Alice Springs and it's in your feed now.
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