It was a relationship that saw both Donald Trump and Tucker Caulson rise to power.
You and I and everyone else who supported him. He wrote speeches forum, I campaigned for him. I mean, were implicated and this for sure in very small ways, but in real ways, you and me and millions of people like us are the reason this is happening right.
Now now that Tucker Trump romance is officially over.
So I do think it's like a moment to wrestle with our own consciences. You know, we'll be tormented by it for a long time. I will be.
Conservative media powerhouse. Tucker Culson has offered this apology to voters for backing the president as their relationship turned sour.
And I want to say I'm sorry for misleading people. It was not intentional, That's all I'm saying.
I'm Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven AM today. Jason Zangly, staff writer for The New Yorker, on the end of Tucker and Trump and what it means for the MAGA movement. It's Thursday, April thirty. Jason. To start off, you met Tucker Carlson decades ago when you were an intern. He was a reporter. What was he like and why has he gone on to become just such a big deal in America since then?
Well, he's someone has been around for a long time. I mean, he was a very successful magazine writer as a young person, and then he moved into television and he was very successful on television.
Good Evening and welcome to Tucker Carlson tonight. Imagine being a historian one hundred years agow trying to figure out what happened.
He had some pretty big career setbacks where he got canceled from his cable news shows, and you had some other sort of mishaps. But he's someone who just kind of hung around, and so I think he's a familiar figure to people here. And he's also he's reinvented himself several times, and he's really he's very good at sort of managing to either find himself in or insert himself into the center of the action.
So, Jason, can we take a look at the history of the relationship now between Trump and Tucker Carlson. When did Tucker first come across Trump and what did he think of him in the early days.
So Trump has been around obviously longer than Tucker and also, you know, similarly, like has had lots of ups and downs, but always kind of finds himself, you know, at the center of the action. When Tucker was on cable news, Tucker made this joke about Trump having bad hair, and Trump left Tucker. Trump and Tucker never talked before, but Trump called Tucker and left him a message on his
answering machine. Tucker didn't answer, and the message was, you know, you might have better hair than me, but I get more pussy than you do.
Wow.
And I guess that in a weird way. One Tucker over he found that to be kind of charming in its own way. And you know, they circled around each other for a number of years and just you know, they kind of vaguely knew each other, but it wasn't really until Trump ran for president. People don't remember this even in the United States, but I'm sure in Australia they forget it as well. Back when Trump was first running for president, most conservative pundits were very dismissive of him,
and they didn't take him seriously. And Tucker was one of the few conservative pundits who saw the potential that Trump had to be a successful politician. There he is.
Can you feel the magic? It's the hottest ticket in South Alabama tonight. Donald Trump expected to draw the biggest crowd of any candidate yet this election season, happening this evening.
I don't think Tucker particularly liked Trump personally, but he understood that his issues, especially on you know, being opposed to immigration, kind of running on white grievance, running as a sexist. Tucker saw that there was there was an audience for that among conservative voters, and he was willing to at least entertain the possibility that Trump could be successful. And at Fox, Fox had a really basic problem. They wanted to do segments about Trump, but most of the
pundits at Fox were dismissive of Trump. So they needed to find people who would at least, you know, if not actually support Trump, at least entertain the possibility that he might go somewhere just to make a debate segment work.
Here's a guy who says exactly he thinks he doesn't care, and there's something thrilling about that.
No, you mean like anchor baby, Yeah, that's exactly.
What I mean.
And Tucker was someone who was willing to do that, and he ended up getting more and more airtime because he was willing to do that, and that's how his own star kind of eventually rose at Fox.
So, Jonah, I know you're not generally a big Trump defender, but will you at least concede it is nice to hear from the last unafraid man in America who can say exactly what he really thinks, and, unlike the rest of us, is encowering under the threat of losing his job because he's telling the truth.
Yeah, well, I mean, I would pray we can get into a debate about how much of what he said is actually the truth in terms of the statistics and all.
And then twenty twenty three comes along. Tucker Carlson is right behind Trump. They even spoke at a campaign event for him a few days before election night. Why did he get on Team Trump? And how strong was the relationship?
So during Trump's first presidency, when Tucker was a star at Fox, he maintained some distance from Trump. He was supportive of his policies, not of the person. After he was fired from Fox, I think he recognized Tucker, that is, recognized that in order to maintain his own kind of relevance and managed to stay in American's field of vision
and keep their attention without having that Fox platform. He needed to do something, and I think one thing that he realized he could do was he could he could attach himself to Trump at the hip, and you're right, he became, for all intents and purposes, a part of Trump's campaign. He launched his own independent media channel.
We've decided that we need something new, something relentlessly honest, that the corporate gatekeepers can't touch. So we built a company called Tucker Carlson Network. We'll be rolling it out starting now.
But at the same time he did that, he would go out on the campaign trail of Trump. He spoke at the Republican Convention for Trump. He spoke at his rallies.
Donald Trump's gonna win. He's gonna win. I know that that's true. Why is Donald Trump gonna win? The people?
He's an extremely talented and smart political operator, and he was someone that I think Trump valued as having on his side and someone whose advice Trump ended up valuing. I mean, Tucker was very influential in the selection of JD. Vance as his running maid. He was very influential in terms of some of the cabinet choices that Trump made, and I think Trump just came to trust him.
What type of propaganda did Tucker Carlson spread Trump Gander and what sort of false information and how influential did that end up being.
Well, Tucker definitely was a promulgator of the conspiracy theories about the twenty twenty election and that you know, Trump would actually want it once he started his own streaming service, he voiced those views.
Was their voter fraud? Well, we know there was some just ask people, did you personally commit voter fraud? Well, that has just been done and the answer is a huge percentage of people asked in the poll admitted yes, I committed voter fraud. It's remarkable.
He was a huge spreader of the conspiracy theory about the January sixth attacks that Tucker maintained that they were a false flag operation by the federal government and the Deep State to try to discredit Trump.
Take it as a whole. The video record does not support the claim that January sixth was an insurrection. In fact, it demolishes that claim. And that's exactly why the Democratic Party and its allies in the METI prevented you from seeing it.
I mean, there are some conspiracy theories that I would say he brought to Trump. I mean this idea of the great replacement theory, which is this idea that liberal forces, oftentimes you know, Jewish forces, are bringing immigrants, third oral immigrants into the United States to disempower white voters and support the Democratic Party.
New York has lost about four million white people even as it gained a million people in population.
What is that?
That that was a conspiracy theory that Tucker kind of mainstream that he brought into the conservative mainstream, and then that Trump ultimately echoed. So it was actually it sort of was a two way street.
People that don't speak our language, they're signing them up to vote. And I believe that's why you're having millions of people pour into our country and it could very well affect the next election, and I believe that's why they're doing it.
You know, Tucker would echo some of Trump's conspiracy theories, and Trump would echo some of Tucker's.
Coming up, Trump and Tucker, how did it all fall apart?
Now?
Jason? The big question though, is how did this relationship start to break down and what was the final stroll?
Well, Foreign policy is I think probably the biggest issue on which they disagreed. I mean, there were there were some fissures before that, the Epstein files. I think Tucker was someone who wanted Trump to be more the Trump administration to be more forthcoming about those and he was critical of Trump. But it really wasn't until the United States attacked Iran last summer that those disagreements really started to come to the fore. You know, Tucker is a
real isolationist. He's a real opponent of foreign interventions by the US military. That was something that Trump campaigned on as well, and I think Tucker really believed that Trump believed that too. And when Trump attacked Iran the first time, you know, Tucker tried to sort of head him off on that. You know, he opposed the potential of a strike. You know, both publicly and privately.
Committing young American men to go die in Iran is not in their interest at all, and it would cause not simply heartbreak in the families of those killed, but it would cause potentially real turmoil here domestically.
And then when Trump bultimately did it, Tucker criticized it, but not quite as forcefully as he might have but this second time around, with the second military action against Iran, he again tried to head it off both publicly and privately. But now he's very critical of it, and and it is it basically colors everything.
At some point, very soon, the United States has to say to the government of Israel, you were not in charge.
You know, Tucker has become a real conspiracy theorist about Israel. He insinuates that Trump is acting at that the hest of Israel because Trump is either being physically threatened by Israel. Tucker's kind of insinuated that they are behind some of these assassination attempts. He's either being blackmailed by Israel or he's been bought off by Israel in the form of campaign donations from Americans who are supporters of Israel.
There are a bunch of people in the US government who do not put the United States before theaters of Israel, period. And you saw that very clearly with Mike Huckabee. We interviewed him last week in Tel Aviv, and there was no sense at all that he represents the United States or is any interest in what happens to the United States at all. His party is in defending Israel.
The military action in Iran and then the Trump administration's approach to Israel are the two things that have completely destroyed their relationship.
So we've now had this tremendous breakup. Really, is it a major loss for Trump no longer having Tucker on board? And could you also explain for us how Tucker Kulson, how did his earliest support for trumpet He's views some sort of framework.
I don't know if this is that big of a loss for Trump. We've seen Trump survive these things multiple times. At the same time, I do think Tucker he has probably the largest following of anyone, largest following among kind of MAGA voters and conservative voters of anyone who has, you know, broken up with Trump who's now critical of Trump.
So be it'll be worth watching Along those lines, Tucker did provide a much more sort of coherent version of Trump's ideology than Trump ever did himself, and I think that was important. I think, especially among kind of conservative intellectuals, they preferred Tucker to Trump because Tucker made sense. You know, Trump is sort of forcefully anti intellectual. He's contradicting himself
all the time. Tucker, at least when it comes to some of these issues like immigration and trade and foreign policy. He's he's very consistent these days, and I think for a certain kind the conservative Tucker was appealing in a way that Trump wasn't.
The big question that.
I think all of this is raising is just what exactly is MAGA. I think Tucker thinks that MAGA is an ideological movement that has core ideological principles, and that when people in the United States vote for Donald Trump, they're voting for those ideological principles. This idea that we're not going to get involved in foreign wars, they're going to strict immigration, that we're not going to enter free trade policies. Tucker thinks that that's what these MAGA voters
are supporting. I think the flip side of that theory, and I think this is actually Donald Trump's theory, is that MAGA is a cult of personality. People are supporting Donald Trump because they love Donald Trump, and whatever Donald Trump says, they're going to believe and they're going to support.
So Donald Trump can say, look, we're going to go to war and Iran now, and they're going to say, all right, well, that's the MAGA position, and Tucker is going to force this question, I think, to the foe,
We're going to really see what MAGA is. I mean, I suspect it's that Trump is right and it's a cult of personality, but Tucker leaves that it's an actual ideology, and he's setting himself up to be the person who can say Trump betrayed what we all believe, and I am here to you know, redeem you and to support these beliefs that we share and support me because I believe these things that you believe.
So Jason, what do you think happens now? What is the long game that Tucker Carlson is playing. Do you think he actually wants to become Trump's successor? I do.
I don't think he's someone who has, you know, thought about running for president his whole life and has this sort of burning ambition to do it. But it's really hard not to view his recent moves as anything but an attempt to position himself to run for president in twenty twenty eight to say that, you know, I am
the true MAGA candidate. I mean, a lot of this, a lot of these questions are being raised because Donald Trump's going to leave the stage, and I think Tucker is he has a vision for what MAGA is and what he wants it to be post Tromp, and I think, you know, the the best way for him at this point to fight for that vision would probably be a presidential run.
Jason, thank you for this fascinating deep dive on Tucker, Carlson, and Trump. It's been great having you on.
Oh thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.
Hey, Orange Pigs America first hoops.
Oh boy, that was the slogan you sold.
This afternoon in a bonus episode of seven AM. You've probably seen the viral videos.
It's clear.
They voted you to dive for is they lied to you?
Dig into how Iran is using rap music and lego to win the propaganda war against the US.
I think this is purely for an American audience, at least the Lego videos, because they're very US centric. Of course, there's this nod to the Jeffrey Epstein files, and that's also a very popular theme that you see in these Lego videos, highlighting the hypocrisy of elites in America and the corruption and the lack of accountability in the US. While they're wagging their finger at Iran, Russia, China about human rights abuses.
If the public ever saw the files, and the planet would shape from the level of filth in the clowns in your way. No one did you called you the worst, You degenerous name you claimed you never see.
Then Sid