From Schwartz Media. I'mrick Morton and this is seven AM. There's a shadow world beneath camera that is fed by the Defense, Foreign Affairs, and security communities. It's made up of advisers who are unknown to the public, but who are hugely influential in how the government responds to our biggest geopolitical charges. Investigative journalist Margaret Silence has been given a close iron its world for decades, and recently the story of one group and of one woman stood out to her.
After hearing gossip about her from several different sources, I rang her up and as nicely as I could manage, asked if she was a spy.
Today. The mysterious demise of China matters why this influential group came undone and how a group of anti China politicians called the Wolverines led the attack that's coming up. It's Wednesday, July tenth, Margaret, many of us might feel as if they really use this hidden words by a sort of trading state secrets in this subterranean way, especially in camera, but we might not know exactly what it looks like. Tell me about this group China matters, why did they pique your interest.
Well, you know, it was a very eminent, well regarded organization up until about twenty nineteen. It had a very eminent board at different times and there were senior Liberal Party figures on the board at different times. For more, I'm joined by Linda Jacobson from the think tank China Matters.
Linda Jacobson, thank you so much for your time.
Is it inevitable?
So?
It was founded by a Finnish woman, Australian resident and Finnish national called Linda Jacobson, who was a China expert. She spent twenty years living in China. She was first recruited to come to Australia by the Lowe Institute and then when she left LOWI she founded China Matters with some others. I think Australia has to think very carefully about all of these scenarios. How is Australia going to react?
Those decisions need to be made now. I think it's fair to say that China Matters was pro engagement with China. Some people think we will be at war with China within five years, or at least that that's a real possibility. But whether that's true or not, we're going to be dealing with China for a long while. It's o major trading partner, the underpinning of much of our wealth, and of course you know, a very large and currently aggressive neighbor.
So starting there, they were trying to contribute to a conversation which would allow Australia to make better, as they saw it, better policy decisions in how to deal with the relationship. So I set about to try and find out the reasons why China Matters was set upon by the Morrison government in twenty nine, nineteen and twenty twenty, and ultimately it finally closed up shop earlier this year. I started with a genuine sense of curiosity. This looks strange,
what's gone on here? And so I was trying to find out why, why did this happen? Why was it set upon in this way?
And of course you have a finally attuned spider sense for these types of stories. I think you must have picked up on some kind of gurgling that something was going on in China Matters, and then you picked that thread.
What did you start to uncover? Well, there was a big change, of course, in perceptions of China. You might remember back in John Howard's prime ministership. The mantra was that we could both have America as our main security partner, and we could also have China as our main trading partner, and that we could manage all this without having to choose.
We are very desirous of having as much Chinese investment, both equity and direct investment as possible, and that is a point that I made to the Chinese leadership during my discussions.
But the pushback against China and the change in the climate began under Malcolm Turnbull's Prime ministership.
What we need to ensure is that the rise of China which is happening, nothing's going to stop that, and any time soon is if you like, conducted in a manner that does not disturb the security and the relative harmony of the region upon which China's prosperity depends.
Now, you remember we banned Hiwai from having a role in building five G in Australia, and then there was a new foreign interference legislation which required universities, for example, to register the relationships so they had with foreign researchers and foreign organizations. This was a big shake up. But I spoke to Malcolm Turnbull and he was not responsible for the campaign against China Matters. He said, I don't know what happened. I don't know what went wrong. Don't ask me.
So.
When he left the Prime ministership and Scott Morrison took over, China Matters was still flying high. And indeed in twenty eighteen they did a study tour of China and people like Julian Lesser were on that. Richard Miles, who's now of course Minister of Defense, all of whom later on provided testimonials to China Matters website saying how valuable this was. That was September twenty eighteen, that the end of the Golden Nearer, as it turned out.
Coming up after the break, a group of anti China politicians known as the Wolverines take on China Matters. Margaret, China Matters was this well regarded organization the advice on China, and it was pro engagement, which didn't go down all that well with some politician in Canberra. Tell me about the Wolverines.
Is it time to give up the Wolverine? Theatrics that you're a part of with other members of.
Parliament here in the Wolverines was established for a very good purpose, which is.
The Wolverines were a group that spanned Labor and the Coalition, but they were established to speak up against China's aggression and interference or attempts at interference in Australian politics.
To undergo the bipartisan support for a strong Australian foreign policy that stands up for our national interest and our values.
I think they, at one stage, and I think they've stopped doing this, put claw marks on their doors to sort of signal membership of this group. And the name Wolverines was a reference to a nineteen eighty four movie which I confess I didn't watch as part of my research. It's Scott Patrick Swayze in it and Charlie Sheen the movie Red Dawn, in which I gag our high schoo a football stars thwought a Soviet invasion of the United States.
Two of the most prominent people among the Wolverines on the Coalition side were Senators Andrew Hasty and James Patterson, and they were also the names that were most frequently mentioned to me as the people behind the attacks on China Matters, and.
China Matters actually invited two of the Wolverines to China.
They did, and they agreed to go. But then when they put in for visas for the Wolverines, that's for Senators Hasty and Patterson, the Chinese embassy indicated that it wasn't a convenient time for those particular gentlemen to visit. So that was embarrassing for everyone because the news leaked.
And then in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, China Matters is defunded by the Morrison government and you start looking into why, and you come across this name that keeps coming up. A public servant of Chinese background.
Yes, Yung Jiang. People may remember when she appeared before a Senate committee and Senator Eric Abbetts, also a Wolverine, was on that committee and he demanded of Yongxiang and another Chinese Australian who was appearing with her, that they condemned the Communist Party of China.
Can I ask each of the three witnesses to very briefly tell me whether they are willing to unconditionally condemn the Communists at the Chinese Communist Party dictatorship.
Before they could sort of say what they had to say to the Senate committee.
Critics have accused him of prejudice and race baiting and say that it's part of a concerning trend in rhetoric about China.
This is a request that wasn't made of any of the Caucasian people. Appearing before that Senate committee, there's quite an outcry at the time. Abbetts was widely condemned. Scott Morrison said the only pledge anybody should have to make is the one they make when they get citizenship, which is loyalty to Australia obviously, so there was quite a storm about that at the time. Anyway, Yung Jung was
the person at the center of that controversy. But in this case, many years later, and indeed after the main attacks on China Matters, she got a fellowship that was in partnership with China Matters and did some research in China. As a result of that fellowship. When I started asking questions around this strange community, her name was raised with me. And as I say, there's a lot of gossip in this land as somebody who was a person under suspicion.
I was told that there had been an ASIO investigation into her. Nobody knew the result of that investigation, or nobody I spoke to in any case, but it was suggested to me that that was one of the security concerns put those words in inverted commas, which was the reason part of the reason for the attacks on China matters and why it was denied DGR status.
Did you manage to track her down?
I did, yes, after hearing gossip about her from several different sources. I rang her up and as nicely as I could manage, asked her if she was a spy.
I'm laughing because I'm nervous because I know that that's where this has got to in this.
Country, right, Yeah, not a conversation that I expect have very often. I have to say. All I can say is if that she is a person advancing foreign interference or indeed a spy, she's got very strange spycraft, because she spoke to me about these suspicions very openly and consented to have the material that's in my article published, which is, you know, strange.
Indeed, thank you, thank you, thank you for the introduction, and so great to see everyone here.
I should also say that Yung Jiang, apart from being a public servant, she's also an academic. You know, She's participated in public forums, democratic forums.
This was the thinking behind the questioning daringm id send a hearing experience where three Australians of Chinese background were asked to condemn the Chinese Communist Party for no reason other than they have a Chinese background.
Right.
It all seems to come back to these security concerns in the comments, as you say, you know what were those concerns?
Exactly? I mean government is perfectly entitled to fund or not to fund organizations. Of course, not every organization that would like to be funded gets funding. And when I was exploring why, I was told I have got three main sources for this. But the first one told me it was nothing to do with the quality of the work, nothing to do with any individuals, no suggestion they were taking money from Beijing or anything of that sort, but
nevertheless that it was a security concern. Now, I squeezed hard on this particular lemon and didn't get much clarity about what it was. As I said, they made it clear there was no suggestion they were in the pay of Beijing, or that there was any particular individual who was a problem. Rather, the security concern was something about the way they operated, something about the business model. This
is really unclear because how did they operate. Well, they took goment funding up until twenty nineteen, twenty twenty and provided briefings and reports and so on. In return for that. They also got some funding from private businesses who had interests in China, but that was all pretty transparent. So yeah,
what was this security concern? Well, as far as I can tell, it seems to be the meetings and the study tours and the fact that people which included parliamentarians and Sinney bureaucrats and business people might meet members of the Communist Party and might be subject to people who were actively trying to interfere or influence Australian politics. That seems to be it the security concerns or perceived security concerns. I described them in the article as sort of columns
of smoke. When I actually try to grasp at them, and I interviewed a number of people, including Peter Carlill, who's currently the chair of the Parliamentary committee that oversees the Security Services, there isn't really anything definite there, it seems to me, so I'm not convinced.
Basically, at the end of all of this, I mean, you set out to partially I guess explore this spooky underground network of spires and the national security apparatus, and of course discovered more columns of smoke. I guess does it tell you anything about the way that you know these forces are shaping our politics as they currently stand.
Well in this episode, and I'm not going to suggest that this is represented in one hopes it's not representative of the whole lot in this episode. It seems to me that we've jumped at shadows and that a source of an alternative point of view on China. I'm not saying you have to agree with it. It should be up for criticism like anything else, but a source of an alternative argument. An alternative point of view was made non viable by the deliberate actions of government with the
death of China Matters. We are still incredibly thin for real depth of understanding of China in the foreign policy and defense community. There's something worryingly autocratic about that, particularly given that we are supposed to be combating an autocratic China.
Margaret Simon's I love your work, love your journalism. Thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you.
Rick. Also in the news, Minister for Indigenous Australians. Linda Bernie has said that only long term solutions can solve the ongoing violence and unrest in Ourice Springs. Her comments come as police instituted a snap three day curfew after off duty police officers we're allegedly assaulted over the weekend. Police are enforcing the lockdown and using new powers given to them in May in a bid to stop youth
crime in the city. Bernie said that while the curfew is important, quote, you can't arrest your way out of this and the community and government need to work together and a new Anti Semitism Envoy will work with the government to address the increasing targeting of Jewish people in Australia. After October seven, standing outside the Jewish Museum in Sydney, Prime Minister Anthony and Albaneze said the Envoy would help increase social cohesion in Australia and that a Special Envoy
on Islabophobia will also soon be appointed. The new role was welcomed by the Coalition and the Executive Council of Australian Jury. The Jewish Council of Australia, however, expressed concern that the Anti Semitism Envoy might risk inflaming to visions by fouling to distinguished between Jewishness and support for Israel.
That's all for.
Today and I'm Rick Morton. This is seven am.
See you tomorrow.