From Schwartz Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM. A five minute drive from the cliff where Ben Robert Smith allegedly murdered an Afghan man named Ali Jan by kicking him off that cliff, there was a small mud brick room used for storing almonds. There was in this room a different group of Australian soldiers killed two Afghan
men in a shocking and brutal way. But despite the intense publicity around the killing of Ali Jan, almost nothing has been heard about what Australians did in the army room, and nobody's been held accountable. Until now, no journalists have visited this isolated place where around three hundred families live. The village is about a six hour drive on bumpy
gravel roads from Tarankaw, the provincial capital of Uresgar. Today, anthropologist and writer Michelle Jasmon de Massey on her journey there and what the families of the men told her about the alleged crimes Australian soldiers have not been held accountable for. It's Thursday, October Ken Michelle, thanks for speaking with me, Star. Can you tell me about Darwin and what the Australian Army's connection is to this place.
So the Australian forces served in Aresgan from two thousand and five to two thousand and thirteen, and for dar One that became a particular significance back in twenty twelve when Australian soldiers were searching for an Afghan rogue soldier called Hickmatula.
Hick Matula at.
That time had killed three Australian soldiers and a hunt basically had begun to find hick Matula. So there was suspicion that heck Matula was in Darwan village and I was quite interested to go there. The best of my knowledge, no journalists had ever been to dar One. There's a bit of an eery feeling to da One. It feels like a lot has happened there, and it's also a place where I found when I did go there, locals really want to talk. People really wanted to speak. It
was almost a little bit overwhelming. People were really wanting to share their experiences about what had happened during the war there.
So who did you speak to with and what did they have to tell you?
Yeah say it.
Amid was one gentleman that I met there, an Afghan man around the age of about thirty five years old, and he was there the day that the Australian forces came to dar One when they were looking for Pickmatula, and he is actually an ear witness to one incident that happened there in dar One. It was an early autumn morning on September eleven, twenty twelve.
The men had all been working in.
The fields, they'd come back, they'd finished morning prayers and they were sitting around drinking tea and they were all together in one compound. Then the Australian the helicopters landed in the vicinity of the compounds and the Australian soldiers approached the compound and they told all of the men to come out and started interrogating them. At that time, Yaro Mama had come from Kushta, another village, to pay a debt, and Nasa Ghul was there visiting a relative.
And when it got to those men, you know the fact that they weren't from Dawan, they were then separated from the group. Now, Sayad Ahmid says that everyone's hands were tired and that they were blind folded. And then what happened next was those two individuals Yarrow Mama and nas a Ghul were then taken to another room. So I had Hamid and heard the gate close, and then they heard some gunshots and that was the last time
that they saw those two men alive. Sayad Ahmad says that the two men were unarmed, that at the time, they were fully cooperative with the Australian forces. So none of these individuals presented a threat from the perspective of Sayd Hahmid. You know, they were all people under control, and we know under the Geneva Conventions, you know, it's a war crime to kill enemies that are actually under control at that time, So.
These two men, Yera Mama and azar Gal were separated from the rest of the men who heard the sound of gunshots. What did the villagers tell you about what happened next?
Well, after that, they obviously never saw those men alive, and everyone waited for the Australian forces to leave.
They waited for the helicopters to go.
And after that, there was another individual who was there, a lady called Shallow. She's sixty year old woman. She's the mother of Sayad Hahmid, and she came out of the room. She'd been separated, and it was pretty common practice at that time for Australian soldiers to separate women and children in one group. And she came out of the room where she'd been separated from them, and she went into the room where the two men were. Locals called it the almond room because it was a room
that was used to store armors. And she found the two men there.
So they were like full of blood. The blood was streaming out of their body like a stream of water.
At the time when she found the bodies, she said, they were so disfigured. There was just blood gushing everywhere. Yarrow Mama's cheek was missing, his eye was missing. He'd been shot in the back of the head. And then she ran to go find help. And basically it was just a really distressing scene where locals stood around. The women were there. They were hysterical, they were screaming, were crying.
And then the men were then buried later that day in a small cemetery a couple of minutes walk from the armond room, and the families took you know, there was blood all over the almonds. They sprinkled the almonds all over the graves of the men and when I was in Darwin, I visited those graves side Hamid took me to show me where the three men Ali Jahan,
naz a Ghul and Yarrow Mama are buried. Is this the waistcoat he was wearing at the time And on Yarrow Mamma's grave site there is still his waistcoat that he was wearing as a bloodied waistcoat that.
Was like his best coat he was doing the time he was a kid.
The villagers say the men were unarmed after the break the Australian soldiers side of the story. Michelle, You've been spending time in Dawhen, where locals have been telling you about their horrific experiences with EIGHTYF soldiers, including the killings of two men who have just finished their morning prayers. They describe being all together and being unarmed. What did the soldiers say happen there?
Their a version of events is quite different to what Sayed Ahmid told me. They said that there were two Taliban insurgents that were armed and that they were engaged, which means they were killed. And they said that these two men were in one compound and then another group of men were in another compound. So It's very different event right there. You know, we said Amita saying that the men were all together, while the soldiers are saying that you know that the men were separate. And again
they were saying that they were armed. Yet Afghan locals said that no one was armed.
Right, so there's two stories. The local villagers say that the men weren't armed, the soldiers say that they were. How should we think about that?
When the post operational summaries came out from that report of the report basically had said that yes, the men were armed. There was an assault rifle on one and there was a chest rig on another, and operation reports showed photographs of weapons besides these individuals. It raises some
questions because of what happened with the Brereton Report. The Breton Report revealed some very dark, sinister behaviors and cultures that were taking place by the Australian forces in Afghanistan during those years that it was serving in or as Ghan and one of the behaviors that was singled out was this culture of throwdowns where people were basically having weapons put beside their bodies and photographs were being taken for operational reports. But it was pretty much looking to
legitimize the killing of possibly innocent Afghans. And in twenty twelve, this same year that these men were killed, the Breton Report found credible evidence of at least twelve cases of.
Throwdowns taking place.
Now we don't know if this case is part of Breton because Breton was very heavily redacted, so we will never know that.
Has Australian governmen made aware of what happened there and what are they doing about it?
The Australian government has been made aware on several occasions about what has happened there in Arazgan in Dawan. Firstly, in twenty twenty one, the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission submitted a report to the Office of the Special Investigator. At that time they were speaking to the victims' families about different incidents that had happened. Out of their submission
did include this case of Nazaghul and Yarrow Mama. Earlier this year, in June, a group of United Nations experts also submitted a damning report to the Australian government saying that there are potential breaches of international law involving what has happened in Areasgan and that these families should be compensated.
And then in September this year, the Australian Defense Minister told the Parliament that some commanders would be stripped of their awards and he was referring to the Breton Report that there was credible evidence of thirty nine cases of unlawful killings of Afghans involving twenty five Australian defense personnel.
These were findings of the most serious, disturbing and consequential nature. They warranted the most serious, considered and thorough response.
And the Minister also said that this will always be a.
Matter of national shame what happened in Afghanistan, and it's arguably the most serious allegations of Australian war crimes in our history.
As the then CDF General Angus Campbell said, and I quote, such alleged behavior profoundly disrespected the trust placed in US by the Afghan people who had asked us to their country to help them. It would have devastated the lives of Afghan families and communities, causing immeasurable pain and suffering.
How come this particular story from that particular day a day of infamy for our defense forces. How come that hasn't been brought to the public's I guess gays before.
Now that's a really good question.
I think, you know, the focus had always been on Ali Jahn's case and the publicity surrounding the trial of Benjamin Robert Smith. But it appears that there's many other cases of potential breaches of international law by the Australian forces, and there is an ongoing investigation by the Office of the Special Investigator taking place. However, they're not in a position, or they say they're not in a position to provide
any information to the public about these investigations. So we don't really know what's happening, and we don't know what cases are being investigated.
And I think probably the most concerning.
Aspect of this is that the OSI has not allowed Afghuns to actually provide testimonies despite the fact that they will witnesses. So right now the situation is very one sided. You know, we're only hearing the military perspective. Yet we have you know, many Afgun witnesses that want to testify and give their version of events but have basically been barred from being able to do this.
Has the reason been given as to why they are barred from providing evidence.
Yes.
So the reason behind that is that the Australian government doesn't recognize the current government of Afghanistan, which is the Taliban, so they don't have a relationship with with this government. There's concerns about the safety of investigators should they go to Afghanistan to do this. But you know, there's still a lot of question marks for me around this. You know,
earlier this year, I traveled to Kandahar. I spoke with the Taliban spokesman, mister Zabiula Majayid, and I said, you know, will you let these families testify, and most important, will you let women testify? Given the situation for women at the moment in Afghanistan is really terrible. And he said, yeah, this is a judicial process. If they want to testify, they can testify. We don't have an issue with that. You know, if they want to do it online, they can.
And I guess there's a you know, there's probably the view would the Taliban contaminate the evidence? You know, I guess that's probably a concern. But Majai it was even of the view that people could travel to a third country, they could go to somewhere like guitar or Dubai and you know, could meet at the Australian embassy and people could give their evidence and then they could return. So there's actually, you know, a willingness on that side to allow this to happen.
So you mentioned the bread and Report and that's the way our government is dealing with the wrongs committed by Australian soldiers in Afghanistan. Can you tell me how far along we are in terms of implementing its recommendations.
Yeah, So last month the Defense Minister said that all one hundred and forty three recommendations from the Afghanistan Inquiry Plan have been adopted except four were still ongoing, which is the work being conducted by the Office of the Special Investigator. One of the other key recommendations of Brereton was to pay compensation to individuals or the victims families, and Australian Defense Force had promised this would be done by the end of twenty twenty one, and no one
has been paid any money. No one's ever come to speak to those individuals about that. The Australian Defense Minister has now said that the Afghanistan Inquiry is closed.
You know, it's officially over.
But where does that leave the victims in places like dar Ian, Well, for them, it's not closed. No one has been prosecuted, no one has been given an opportunity to testify.
And it's left a really dirty scar.
In places like Aurascar, there is a general distrust of Australians there.
So you know, we've got right now a situation where you know.
It's We've got a very very sad collective memory of Australians soldiers during their time in Afghanistan and people that have just been left in the dark about what's happening. No one's ever been given any updates, no one has been able to access any sort of justice mechanisms. When I spoke with Shallow, who was the lady who had found Yarrow Mama and Nasa Ghoul in the armored room that day, and I asked her about, you know, what
should happen next? What does she think about compensation? I mean her reply to that was, you know, how could we be compensated for something of you know, this magnitude.
We were not normal civilians. We were working with live stalks and working in the fields for Anothence, people in my like are my sons, my families, so I'll never forget them and I really want to bring the justice.
She said.
You know, let that murderer come here face to face. I will tell him that we're not lying and I will ask him like, why did you do this to our family members?
We committed no sin. You know there was no Taliban around that day.
Michelle, thank you so much for your.
Time, Thank you, thank you for having me.
You can read Michelle the message withing from Darwin in this weekend's edition of the Saturday Paper. Also in the news today, former military lawyer David McBride has been granted leave to appeal his convictions for sharing secret military documents with journalists. McBride is being in jail since May, when he was given a six year sentence after pleading guilty to three charges including theft and Former Labor senator Fatima Payman says she is forming a new political party named
Australia's Voice. Payment quit the Labour Party in July to it as an independent of disagreement with the party's position on Gaza. I'm Daniel James. This is seven am, and before I go, I wanted to tell you about something I've been working on Monday marks twelve months since the filed Voice referendum, and to commemorate it, I'm bringing you a special three part series called This Is Alice Springs.
After all the reporting we've heard about youth crime, curfews and chaos, I wanted to take a deeper look at what's gone on in the town that was used a political football during the Voice debate. I went to Weller Springs and I sat down with alders, with children, and with police and a few others in between, to ask what it will take to mend the harm that has been done there and what the future looks like for this town at the heart of the nation. Psyche that
starts Monday on seven am. Please tune in and tell all on Sundry, your neighbors, your dad's, your friends all about it. In the meantime, I'll be back tomorrow. Catch you then,