The Commission of war crimes in Afghanistan we know about and have been out of call for action because people spoke up.
Tonight, a member of the SAS is in custody, refused bail and charged with war crimes over the death of a civilian in Afghanistan.
I often think of the Banking Royal Commission. Every Australian with a bank account or credit card is better off because people like Jeff Morris doctor ben Coe spoke up.
Hundreds of millions of dollars in fees for those service companies, misleading and obstructing regulators, the charging of dead people, the sale knowingly of worthless insurance policies.
Some of the biggest scandals in Australian history robodebt, dodgy ato debt collectors and alleged war crimes, could have stayed hidden forever.
So many of the injustices we know about and have been able to call for action and justice on have only come to light because courageous Australians spoke up.
But the lives of those Australians are too often left in ruins because of weak whistleblower protection laws. The result is others decide the cost isn't worth it, and we all lose.
When people stay silent about wrongdoing, injustice is allowed to continue and it's impossible to call for accountability and change.
I'm Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven Am Today journalist and lawyer Karen Pender on what's wrong with our whistleblower laws and why we should protect those who bravely speak up. It's Friday, February twenty seven. Whistleblowers often face an inherent risk when they're choosing to speak out, especially in high profile national cases. So could you tell us about the people who've ultimately paid the price for coming forward.
We've seen in recent years a number of high profile prosecutions people like Richard Boyle or Bernard Callery Witness K, all of whom were dragged through the court system for their role in speaking up about wrongdoing.
A secret hearing has begun in the spy case against Camber lawyer Bernard Caleary, who's been charged with conspiring with former senior intelligence officer Witness K to reveal details of an Australian spying operation in East teamwork.
I'm charged with conspiring with Witness K, my client, whom I interviewed in the same way I have for forty nearly fifty years, So it means I've conspired with every client I've ever had.
Right now, there's a whistleblower, David McBride, who remains in prison.
You've been in.
Jail now for nearly six months.
How's it been It's been hard. I'm not going to say it hasn't been hard. I think the important point though,
is that they are the tip of the iceberg. They are, of course the most visible examples of injustices faced by whistleblowers, but there are many other people who when they speak up at work about wrongdoing, suffer retaliation, whether that's sort of just being mistreated at work, or losing their job, or finding it impossible to get work elsewhere in their industry, to facing legal threats, facing lawsuits and then in the ultimate case, facing prosecution.
So you helped launch Australia's first dedicated whistleblower legal service in twenty twenty three. What was that moment where you thought we have to do this.
Australia was once a world leader in laws to protect whistleblowers, but really fell behind the rest of the world in failing to turn those paper rights into practical protections, and we think a big cause for that was the absence of specialist legal support. If whistle of bows can't get access to specialized pro bono legal support, those rights don't
really work. Already, since we launched, we've been contacted by over six hundred whistleblowers, We've advised over two hundred people seeking our help, and we've represented over fifty clients on an ongoing basis. But I think the message we're seeing from our client base is that anyone could become a whistleblower. Any person could go to work tomorrow and see something wrong and speak up and hopefully that would all go well.
But unfortunately, the experience we know from the research and from our own client experience is that too many people suffer when they speak up. And that's why it's so important that people can access the support and dedicated legal expertise they need.
You said, you've had six hundred people come to you, but you're only working on about fifty cases. Is that because some people go through the process of wanting to expose something, but in the end they decide that the personal cost is too great.
Certainly that does happen now we are a small, predominantly filanthropically funded charity. We can't help everyone. We don't have the resources to help everyone, and so there's a still notwithstanding our best efforts and access to justice have but it's certainly the case that people say to us they are scared of speaking up. The high profile prosecutions and
lawsuits against whistleblowers have had a chilling effect. Better laws, better culture, better support should mean that Australians can speak up about wrongdoing and know they'll be heard and know that action will be taken.
Now, there are laws that are meant to protect whistleblowers from being punished for exposing misconduct at work. So why is it that you think they're failing and what needs to change.
It's not just us that think those laws are not working. The government has accepted that federal public sector whistle blowing laws aren't working.
The Albanezi government is committed to restoring trust and integrity to government and an effective public sector whistle blowing framework is essential to achieving this.
Including there's currently a review into federal private sector whistleblowing laws as well at a state and territory level. We've got a real patchwork and at a federal level. As I mentioned, we've not only got the main two laws for public servants and for the private sector, we've also got nine different federal whistle blowing laws. Some people are covered by none, some people are covered by several of those, and all of them are different and all of them
are inconsistent. So it's a bit of a legal mind field. But we know that those laws need to change. The government has admitted as much. We've been calling for some time now for the establishment of a federal whistle blower Protection Authority to try and fill that gap, to try and give people the support they need to oversee and enforce these laws. But we haven't seen the robust and courageous law reform that we.
Need coming up scandals and cover ups Australia should know about but doesn't.
Today the Attorney General has announced consultation on stage two of public sector whistleblower reforms. That will be important going forward. As I indicated that would come forward here.
In the Albanzi government, it's been talking about improving whistleblower protections since it took office in twenty twenty two. They campaigned on it and promised immediate action. So what have they done.
There have been some small changes to some federal whistlebloing laws since the Albanzi government took office. Right now there is an exposure draft for much more substantial, wide ranging reform to our federal public sector whistleblowing laws that was released in September of last year. We are waiting for the government to act. The government talks a good game on protecting whistleblowers. Unfortunately, under the government's watch we've seen
these high profile prosecutions continue. They were started under the last government, they've continued under this government.
The Member for Clark has concerns about the prosecution of mister David McBride and mister Richard Boyle. As I told the House yesterday in response to a question from the Member for Clark, I am strongly of the view that integrity and the rule of law are central to Australia's criminal justice arrangements.
Don't get me wrong. Some changes that have already introduced have been important, and some of the proposed changes would go some way towards better protecting whistleblowers. The government has proposed, for example, under the federal Public Sector Law, to establish a whistle blowing Ombardsman within the Commonwealth obitdsman that would
go some way towards addressing some of the gaps. But it is not an independent whistleblower protection authority that we think Australia needs and would follow in the footsteps of a number of other countries. We've got whistleblowing ombardsmen and whistle blowing authorities around the world in different places. We need ambition from this government. There's law forming train. It's not happening fast enough and it's not ambitious enough.
Is there an argument though, that while some whistleblowers should be protected, that there is some information that's sensitive, classified government or intelligence information that should be kept secret to protect Australia's national interest.
Of Course, no one is calling for cut blanche transparency, transparency or costs. Of Course, some national security information should be kept secret, and there's a necessary reason for that secrecy. The problem is not getting the balance right. The problem is Australia has swung so far towards secrecy that it's undermining our democracy. Australia at a federal level has almost a thousand secrecy offenses on the books. Again, the government
has accepted that's too many. The Government's accepted. There's major problems with that, And in relation to national security whistle blowing, there are some complex issues there and where you draw the line, reasonable minds may differ, but at the moment those lines are drawn in such a way that it's impossible for national security whistleblowers to speak up.
Kieran, do you have any sense of how many scandals or cover ups or injustices you think going on in this country right now hidden away because people who may want to blow the whistle have seen what's happened to people like David McBride, who as we know, is currently serving five years in jail, and they're too scared to come forward.
Yes, there are many things that would shock your listeners that are currently not coming into the public domain. I have clients who make the decision not to speak up because of the risks they know they face, and it is very difficult for people to raise concerns about wrongdoing, you know, I think it's important to say that it's not as if most whistleblowers want to go and be on the front page of the newspaper straight away. Most people, in most circumstances to what the law says is the
right thing they speak up in internally, nothing happens. They speak up to a regulator, nothing happens. Typically, the public whistleblime, which is obviously the most prominent, is the last resort. We've had lots of success helping people resolve concerns internally, resolve concerns with regulators, with antiruption bodies and so on. But is certainly the case that there's too much secrecy in Australia. There's not enough transparency. It's too hard to
be a whistleblower in Australia right now. We are doing all we can to try and make it less hard. We need the government to do more.
Kieran, thanks so much for speaking with us.
I appreciate it.
Also in the news, the Treasurer has flagged that the upcoming federal budget will include belt tightening amid higher than expected inflation. The Reserve Bank is expected to hold rate after lifting them to three point eighty five percent in February, although the latest inflation figures have increased the risk of
another rise. Jim Chalmers says that inflationary pressure is driving the need for additional budget savings, and Trade Minister Don Farrell says the United States will keep at ten percent tariff on Australian goods. The US Supreme Court has ruled parts of the legal mechanism used to impose tariffs were unlawful, prompting speculation the administration would reset rates and lift the
global baseline to fifteen percent. Farrell says US officials have now confirmed Australia won't face an increase, but the ten percent tariff on Australian exports will remain in place while the US administration responds to the ruling. I'm Nicole Johnston. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.