Hey there, it's Ruby Jones. This week we're releasing our favorite episodes from our sister podcast Read This. It's the show where the editor of the monthly, Michael Williams, talks to some of the best and most respected writers from Australia and around the world. And today we're hearing from American author Rumin Alum and Michael Williams joins us.
Now.
Hello Michael. Hello, So Michael, can you tell me a bit about Rumin Alum.
Yeah. Rumin Alums the author of four novels, and the one you're probably most likely to have heard of was the one that came out in twenty twenty. It was a New York Times bestseller and it was called Leave the World Behind. It was one of those kind of very zeitgeisty books about an apocalyptic event where a bunch of affluent New Yorkers are trapped in the Hamptons. It was made into a Netflix movie last year, starring Julia Roberts and Ethan Hawke from Memory, and that was a
very good adaptation. But it was also a gripping book. Was really good.
Yeah, it's a thriller, isn't it. But it also has these themes of class and race and privilege.
Yeah, and those themes are really a through line through all four of his books, not least his latest novel, which is called Entrapment, which follows this single middle class woman called Brooke who's got a job as an assistant to this octogenarian billionaire and he's on this kick late in his life. He decidedly has to give away his vast fortune. So it's kind of her job to assist
him in that. But proximity to that kind of wealth has a corrupting effect, and so she very quickly finds herself adopting his lifestyle without necessarily the funds to pay for it. So Entitlement is in that same vein as a kind of thriller, a cautionary tale. It's all about self delusion in a city that values money above everything else. It's really terrific and a lot of fun to talk to him. We talk about Richard Scarry books for some reason, so that tells you the conversation goes in unexpected.
Directions, coming up in just a moment. Women alarm on class, desire and dread.
Class is an element that's a play in all of Rumen's novels, but perhaps most acutely obvious in Entitlement, where the whole idea of social status and wealth becomes an obsession for its main character, Brook. I wanted to start by asking you about class in America and about how important classes in the kind of spectrum of identity, politics, in the spectrum of kind of sense of self in contemporary America.
Well, with the covey up that I'm ill equipped to speak about, you know, the netion large, it does feel to me that class is a pretty significant factor in American cultural and life. You see it in the kind of I'm trying to think that sort of performance conducted by someone like Trump, who is of a certain class, a moneyed, urbane class, and is able via language and all of these other signifiers to address and sort of
be glorified by a quite different class of Americans. So that kind of cross class thing I think we've seen. And Trump is hardly the only politician who does this, because the political lead in this country on both sides of the political spectrum tends to be moneyed, highly educated people who have gone to school in Cambridge or New York. But they're able to mobilize these sort of coalitions or camps of voters who are sort of nothing like them by appealing to them with some language that seems to
be very rude in class. And I think it's discomforting to talk about, as complicated as it is to have a proper conversation in this country, and I'm sure in Australia as well about racial politics, class politics feel even more slippery because you are sort of reducing huge segments of the population to these sort of ridiculous types based on all of these external factors. And yet I think
it's also something that people understand is present. It's present in what your accent sounds like, it's present in what your name is like, and it determines so much of your experience of contemporary life. I mean, as a middle class person, I guess maybe it's the middle class generally, or the coastal middle class or the New York City middle class has the least reason to talk about it.
I mean, that's more, it's less salient to my experience of life, because I'm not beginning my life for trying to radically change the circumstances of my life based on what I've inherited from my parents, based on the class into which I was born.
Part of how from outside it appears to play out in an American context, which is something that's very present in all of your work, I think is around the idea of aspiration. You know. The thing that always staggers me as someone who's not an American is how often the political debate in your country people seem to vote against self interest. There is something about the idea that you might not be a millionaire, you might not be comfortably off, but one day you might get to be.
In the American dream, it's possible that you are going to end up in this position of privilege, and as a consequence, you're going to vote with your aspirational self rather than your real self. That gap between what you want and what you're allowed to want seems pretty huge. Is that a reductive way of talking about your country?
I don't think so, but you know, I'm not running for office. I think that you said it yourself, the American Dream. That sort of phrase is some of the most persuasive myth making we have in the culture. It's up there with just do it right. It's like that is the brand of this nation, that you can dream really big, and the way that that has been sort of bent for the electorate by people who I think
are ultimately quite cynical. Is to appeal to this childish idea that you may be a millionaire someday and that you should not do anything that might cost your future self in sort of tax consequence or something which is obviously preposterous, and you know, but it's quite successful. People rail in this country perfectly reasonable. People rail against the idea of this state providing lunches to school children, you know,
which is crazy. It's crazy. They rail against things like inheritance tax, not really comprehending that the inheritance tax on one hundred and fifty American families could completely change the way the American economy functions, because they imagine that someday I'm going to leave this money to my child or you know, that will somehow affect me. But it's not going to affect you. It's going to affect the Walton family or Bill Gates, but it has nothing to do with me. You know.
As a novelist, how useful is the idea of desire and want and aspiration as a novelistic engine. It seems to be one that you had drawn to. Is characters who hunger for things that are just out of reach or denied them one way or the other.
That schema's efficacy, as like the engine of a novel, is ultimately that that judgment is in the hands of the reader. I would say that as the writer, you can't help returning to your hobby horses, and you just sort of find yourself back in this same territory over and over again. I thought of my third book, Leave the World Behind, as being really distinct from my first two. And while it is formally or in the sort of novelistic strategy, it is distinct thematically, it's not it's really
the same territory. And I think that that's I think that that is something that happens to I was going to say writers, but I think it's sort of something you see across the board that artists have these particular preoccupations and desire. And in this case, I don't mean a kind of vaunted, spiritual or intellectual desire. I mean sort of like want of things, or status or or power or something is a pretty It's a pretty easy one for me to get my head into. And maybe
that's because I'm American. That kind of desire is like, that's you're taught that from your I mean, that is inculcated in you from the very beginning, you know, like I think it's not just about American life, it's sort of contemporary life. But contemporary life is about possessions and it's about acquisition. And this is a message that you
are hit with constantly. I have two children, and I remember when they first started taking the bus to school, and then they would take the bus to summer camp. It was especially with my older son. You know, parents often with their first born can be very vigilant about being the intermediary and their experience of reality. But then they slip out of your hands to go off to school to ride the bus, and they hear things like
the radio. So this is a kid who had never seen the television, but would come home saying to me, I mean, he has said to me, this is like one of those stories that families love to tell. He said to me, like, what are we doing for Toyota than right, which is just a sales gimmick that he heard about on the radio on the way to summer camp.
And so that kind of messaging about acquisition and buying is so persuasive even to a little a little baby who doesn't know what you're talking about, who isn't going to buy a car, you know. So I just think that's like part of the it's part of the culture. That's what we want.
There's nothing quite like being a parent to get that stuff reflected back to you as well. And you're right, it's a funny thing as they get older where you go from if not controlling, at least being present for the entirety of their experience and the entirety of how they understand the world that they're in, to other influences coming in and completely kind of feeding in in different ways, which is such a confronting thing I think as a parent.
And you know that's a but even if you sort of curate their experience of reality, you know, with which we did or we tried to do, as I think a lot of parents do. He read these books like you watch fifteen minutes of this show, you play with
these organic wooden blocks. I remember when my older son was quite small, because it was before we had his brother, so he was three or less, and we saw a woman who lived across the street from us unloading sheets of drywall from the back of a van, and this little baby said, ladies can't do that, which is such a startling thing to hear from your kid's mouth, especially when you, you know, my husband and I are like, oh, we're raising these enlightened these are going to be like
the great young men of the future. To hear him say this sort of startling thing. And my theory about that is that he was saying something he had seen in the pages of Richard Scary. Yeah, where those books you see the dads with the tool belts or you know, they're the butcher or whatever, and the and the moms the pigs or cows or whatever they are are wearing aprons and they're cooking, and so he kids are just trying to make sense of the world, and the world is
trying to sheepe their understanding of that world. And it happens to you too. And as you're saying, I think when you when you see it happen to your kids, you realize the extent to which it has happened to you.
I mean, Richard Scarry's a prime example. There's such kind of rigid gender norms, but he'll still let a pig be a butcher, which seems like a strange job choice for a pig. I don't want to be judgmental, but that seems unkind When did you know you wanted to be a writer, and what was the relationship between that moment and your experience as a reader.
Adults can come to reading at any time, of course, but I think there are certain adults for whom it happens in childhood. It happens sort of like quickly and bindingly. The mythology in my own family, and who knows if it's true, is that I learned to read when I was four. I was taught by a babysitter, and like once that happened, I never supped. And that is certainly my memory. It's hard to know, you know, how reliable that is, but I remember so clearly reading a book.
I would take a bath. I would read in the bathtub, and I would finish the book, and then I would go back to the first page. I never it would sort of continue on. For me. One of the worst tragedies of my young life is when we were on vacation and I finished the two books I had brought like I finished them like at the airport, and I had to read my father's copy of The Hunt for Road October for the balance of my trip when I was like ten. So I think that it the kid
who is a reader like that as I was. It's not a far walk from there to think like, I'm also going to be a writer. And I remember having this idea about myself, like pretty young, before I even started school, And it was always the kind of story I told about myself and to myself, and so feels like an inevitability. But of course that's so silly because I was a little kid. So what did I know?
You were a little kid who would lie in the bath and write a book. I mean, you had a certain kind of daked and self knowledge there already clearly.
Yeah, a little princeling reading Judie Bloom in the bathtub at ten magic. But I do you know, I think that like that stuff. I mean, it just becomes the story you tell yourself, right, sort of makes sense of your own life. But that is the story that I tell.
And I think it's true that that sort of deep passion for reading it was interconnection with an interest in writing or I desire to, you know, I just I couldn't believe it, Like I read as a kid, Judy Plume, I read Harriet the Spy, which is Louise fits you, And then as I got older, I read like I got the Christine and I just couldn't believe it. It was like this idea that these people somehow had the ability.
It just felt like magic. Yeah, And to be honest with you, I mean, I'm forty seven now, and I still feel that way. You know, I still feel that way. I was reading Kazia a couple of weeks ago and I was like, this is crazy, Like what am I reading? What is he doing to me?
Like?
How did this happen? How did this book from that he wrote thirty years ago come to me now? And you know, pick apart my brain. It's a very strange thing. And so yeah, it's sort of a life while I'm feeling about that.
When we written, Ruman explains why The Genesis of Entitlement feels so singular and reveals how he manages his relationship with readers. We'll be right back. I'm curious about what that first spark when you know there's a new book on the horizon, whether it's more likely to be an idea or whether they come from character from story.
So I have a very clear sense of how to answer this question with reect to my first book, and my second book, and even my third book. Somehow, this one entitlement it's genesis is a little hazy to me. A long time ago, my husband said to me about a friend of ours, an acquaintance really He said, you know, she's kind of like a chronically single woman at a
time approaching life. And he said, you know, I think at a certain point you should be allowed to marry yourself and throw a big party and everyone has to give you a gift and sort of treat it the same way that they would treat it if you were getting married to another person. A not cruel joke, but kind of like a funny observation, and that really stayed
with me. I remembered that moment, and at some point I think a lot of it is down to the pandemic that this sort of this book was sort of born in this period that I think was hazy for a lot of people. I had this idea about a woman choosing to marry an apartment. We were looking for a home in New York City at the time, so we were kind of had we kind of had like
real estate on the brain. I do think that part of being a middle class person in your forties in New York City is that you think about real estate a lot. There was something very arresting in that idea to me of a woman saying I'm going to marry this apartment instead of this man or this woman entitlement all simiately. The shape that it took strays pretty far
from that. I remember at some point it was also very interested in the not for profit sector in particular these and there are there are quite a few of them, these sort of family operations where somebody who has acquired a fortune or someone who has inherited a fortune works with a lawyer and a couple of other people to
disburse this particular fortune. I know somebody who is involved in this particular business, and the person for whom she works is quite extraordinarily wealthy and has extremely specific priorities in terms of their giving their philanthropy. They're interested in very very specific causes, and the family foundation is an extremely small group of people. I think it's this guy
and his attorney and a friend of mine. And that was interesting to me, because you are able to really do something to really affect something, but you also are just some guy with a checkbook. And for the most part, I think that these sort of investments are going to things that we can all agree are generally good. To micro finance, to researching breast cancer, whatever, these are good causes.
But there is something very peculiar about the fact that just because this guy who did not make this money he inherited it is able to channel a pretty significant fortune according to his whim. Again, not like a bad thing,
but an interesting thing, very interesting to me. And I think since Empire of Pain and that particular book, that particular set of research into the Sacklers and how they may have, I think it's hard to sort of understand, but that perhaps some desire on the part of people who have acquired fortune are built of fortune in ways that they understand to be slightly less than ethical, that they can use philanthropic giving to kind of burnish the
family reputation or burnish their name. That was also of interest to me. So I think what happens for me is that I have ideas that I'm interested in and I need something to make them start happening. And I
think with this particular book with entitlement. It was really situated in the character that I had these two characters who sort of embodied these ideas, the idea of a young contemporary woman who wanted to sort of issue traditional romantic and familial attachments and sort of wanted an apartment, and an older wealthy man who was interested in the kind of ego flex of giving, of generosity.
And I love that you described that philanthropic impulse is interesting but not bad, because I think part of what you do so beautifully and entitlement is exactly that idea. You know, there is a I think a natural impulse in our culture, even if not in our politics, to assume that an octogenarian billionaire is going to somehow be a dastardly figure or be motivated by things that are
somehow render the philanthropy unworthy or render him suspect. And I think the way you've built the character of Asha Jaffey in this book is really interesting because you go with interesting but not bad. I think could be a mantra.
Right, He's not a bond villain, you know, I mean there is we have and we actually have those billionaires in this country, right, these bond villain billionaires who want to go to space or live forever, or whatever preposterous endeavor they have. I think of Asher. I mean, I'm very fond of Asher'll be more fond of him than any person I've ever made up on the page. He's
like a nice guy. He feels like someone who's sort of lucked his way into having billions of dollars, and he seems on some level aware of the limits of his own intelligence. But I also think that when you are costeded by great wealth, you begin to think you are great, you know, a little bit immortal, a little bit unfalliable, right, And I think that this sort of gets into your head. But yeah, I think that I didn't want the book to rely on this schema in
which the old white guy is evil. You know, it doesn't seem that interesting to be He's not great, I mean he does some his behavior is more complex, and I think that's true of most people, right, Yeah, it's people are more complex than that, you know.
I'm glad you mentioned his degree of self awareness, because I do think for both him and for Brook, they have a kind of key protagonist in the book that question about how aware they are of their own motivation of the impact of their own behavior and thinking back to your earlier books, how fun is it to write characters who are less self aware than you are as the authorial voice.
Well, it's great fun because I get to exercise full control. I think that the challenge then, I mean challenge isn't quite the word, but the particular risk is that then it's a question for the reader. The reader has to have her own perspective on the degree to which these characters are honest or trustworthy, or likable or real, you know whatever. But people, That is how I think how people are. I think if you're again, if you're waiting a story for children or sort of like a you know,
then it's or fairy tale or something. It's easy to understand, sort of like black and white, good and evil, you know, but the truth of reality is like a little more complicated. You know. Asher is a very smart man who made billions of dollars in his lifetime, so he has to
possess some sense of what he's doing. But also I think that when you get to a certain point, or when you are he's of a very specific generation, it's possible to be slightly unaware of what you're doing or unaware of the ways in which you are exerting control over others. And I think the same is true for Brooks. She's not Asher's victim, certainly if the book sees her undergo an unraveling or you know, if her fate is
less than ideal. I also think it's true that she's driven herself to that feet for.
The fourth time. Now you've written a book that is utterly compelling and kind of a wonderful read that is going to stay with me for some time. I did have a moment reading Entitlement, where I thought, oh, there's no one quite like Ruman for creating in me a sense of slowly ratcheting dread through the course of a book. I'm kind of reading brook and just thinking, oh, no, don't don't do that.
Why the highest, the highest praise. I will acknowledge my particular debt in this particular instance to Sylvia Plath, because I did reread the Beljar. Of course, her posthumous legacy is a poet is really intact. But I sort of marveled at that novel on rereading, app that it was the product of someone who was so very young, and we only have that book and it's full of dread.
That atmosphere is very potent, and my sense of that book is that Plath is using that atmosphere to sort of depict the water in which she was swimming mentally and psychically, but also those were the terms of life for a woman at mid century. And when I reread the book, I was like, God, I feel like oppressed just reading this book like this. The atmosphere of this book is so powerful, and that was something I really wanted Entitlement to hold. And so I'm thrilled that you
felt that way. But what I hope is that you are able to walk with that realization to reality itself. What happens to Brook. It's a book, it's a novel, it's pretend, but the particular situation in which she finds herself is the situation in which we all kind of exist. Money sort of is the mitigating factor of all things in contemporary life. And that realization is so unsettling that I think once you have it, you either look away from it or you go crazy.
Rumin Alam's latest novel, Entitlement, is out now.
Thank you so much for listening to another special episode of Read This. You can hear all of read this by searching for it wherever you listen, and we'll be back next week with some of Australia's best writers and thinkers on their long form essays from the Monthly