Patricia Karvelas’ guide to saving democracy

From Schwartz Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM. Australia is heading into a federal election at a time when trust in democracy is at a low air. Over the past two decades, satisfaction with the political system has collapsed, driven by economic inequity, housing stress and the rapid spread of disinformation. Political parties are already preparing for a campaign that will lean heavily on negative messaging and approach that

Absolute pleasure.

We hear a lot about trust in democracy declining, but what does that actually look like.

Well, it looks like people becoming increasingly in lots of different cohorts, not mixing and having a completely different experience of the same country, and of course that leads to all sorts of disruption, and I think we're seeing that across the world. I don't think you can really separate anything from what algorithms are doing and how people have entirely different experiences of the information they're receiving, and that

Based in fact.

And you know, she has pretty good digital literacy skills. She can try and identify that, oh, this doesn't look legit. But I worry that we don't have a digital literacy level across the community which is deeper, and that a lot of this misinformation, these silos that people operate in are kind of getting hard baked into the way people are understanding the world around them. And I think Australia is in a better position than places that are similar across.

The world, but we are not out of the woods.

We are, I think, in a really tricky position, and unless we double down on working out how to deal with it, I think we might end up stuffed, even if we end up stuffed a little later than everyone else.

Stuffed is one word for it. But what do some of the stats say when it comes to how people are feeling about democracy at the moment.

So the work that I rely on is from the Australian National University who have done these long surveys with large cohorts voters.

Where they track sentiment.

I've spoken to them at length about what they find here. And satisfaction with democracy in Australia varies across age and education and income. For instance, those who haven't completed year twelve satisfaction with democracy is quite low, and those with a degree or a higher qualification are the most satisfied with democracy.

So what does that mean? We've got this big divide.

You know, we talk a lot about income and inequality, but the education divide appears to be growing as one of the biggest determinants of trust and democracy.

And the real threat.

To democracy is trying to exploit the fears of that group because it'll come back to bite the politicians who are exploiting it. Because these people are increasingly not trusting democracy.

Let's talk about that disconnect and that dissatisfaction with politics and with democracy. How is it being exploited?

Well, we've seen around the world it being exploited in a very dramatic way, aren't we. You know, the election of Donald Trump is clearly part of that we're seeing.

You know, the rise of the far right in Germany is part of that. In Australia, I think we have.

More center right politics, We operate more in the center.

You'll notice that, for instance.

Peter Dutton hasn't chased Donald Trump down every rabbit hole of policy. I know somebody to say it's all the same, it's Trump l Like I do, think there are differences in the policy being offered. But if you look at disruption at the moment, all of the surveys show an increase in this not major party vote. And look at Clive Palmer's new party that is absolutely about exploiting this view in the community that the system is stacked against you.

It's the Trump pet of patriots.

Billionaire Clive Palmer adopts the Mega manual Australia needs Trump policies, launching his third political party, backed by American conservative commentator Tucker Carlson.

You need rich people on your Saite. It's just true. You have to have someone with power on your side.

I think the mainstream parties, particularly labor because they're in government, have not engaged enough with the grievance and they're all about their headline metrics. Joe Biden did it in the US too, Look at our headline metrics. But if people feel in their households like they're in a recession, you can go on about how we avoided a recession at a sort of macro level, but at a household level, you try and speak to anyone and see if they

That's the thing you need to deal with. That's the fundamental thing you need to deal with.

And I guess this whole environment makes it right for disinformation campaigns working to undermine democracy itself and to drive that wedge. What have we been seeing recently on that front?

You know there will be the campaign where you know, journalists on the front line are observing the press conferences, the macro messages, but under the surface in terms of the information the scare campaigns from both sides and other sides, the Clive Palmers and so forth that they put out officially and unofficially through proxies, which is harder to see because different cohorts will be seeing it. So I might never see some of this misinformation, right, I might see some.

Really acutely in one area because.

They've worked out my demographic and it's and on being exploited. But I think we are absolutely set for an election with a lot of fear mongering from lots of perspectives, can I say? And my big thesis, if anything, is that unless we start doing a whole lot more work on digital literacy, civics, education and understanding of.

The way the system works. I think we're cooked.

I think the education system is leaning in a bit, but I still think it's way lower than it needs to be.

And so you've got to be able to make your.

Citizens be informed and question things rather than take everything as fact when indeed it's not.

After the break, how did politicians and the media regain trust?

Hi Ruby Jones Here, seven am tells stories that need to be told. Our journalism is founded on trust and independence, and now we're increasing our coverage. Every Saturday until the election will bring you an extra episode to break down the biggest political moments of the week. If you enjoy seven Am, the best way you can support us is by making a contribution at seven am podcast dot com dot are you forward slash support. Thanks for listening and supporting our work.

Unfortunately, disinformation and misinformation isn't you, but its impact, of course, is bigger because of the way the media landscape has changed so much. I'm sure you've seen it unfold before your own eyes during your time as a journalist. How has that changed your role as a reporter As a broadcaster working in public broadcasting, It's made it.

Harder, much harder.

But you can't be nostalgic for the good old days because it's a it's a waste of your time. But because of the disruption, politicians are able to gain the system a lot more and avoid scrutiny, and that has made my.

Job a lot harder.

So if you are a politician that wants to get a message out, I've had like really seeing political figures. People say to me, why wouldn't I just get on TikTok and you know, share whatever I want to say uninterrupted by you, get as much reach as I can try and amplify it rather than policed by you. You know, because that's what journalists do. We push what we think is important. They're right there basically like why would we bother?

You should subject yourself to scrutiny.

Also, it's a sign of strength, if I can use the sort of muscular language of our times. If you're so strong, whoever you are, subject yourself to scrutiny.

That's how strong you are.

It's the way to be tested to become a leader or a minister or a Prime Minister, opposition leader, whatever you are, which is why because I do want to acknowledge it. I thought the Prime Minister coming on Q and A, which he did for our season launch, was a really important message too, which is, you know, I will come on take hostile questions because voters have a right to ask and not just you know, only speak to friendly instagrammers.

Beyond fronting up like that, what do you think politicians can do to rebuild trust with the electorate.

Politicians need to stop being politicians. And now I don't know why they haven't got this yet. Maybe they're so institutionalized, or they have been so micromanaged.

I feel a bit bad for some of them.

Actually, they've been so media trained within an inch of their existence that they are scared to say things. And I'll give you an example. I actually don't think it's entirely on Albanezi. I think his entire political party must take responsibility for the fact that sometimes he sounds very uncertain, which has been exploited by Peter.

Dutton as a sign of lack of strength.

I believe he sounds uncertain because in the middle of every sentence he's thinking about every single word that's about.

To come out. But you know what Trump does.

He speaks so much more authentic, and when things go wrong, he'll then speak again in the next hour and kind of correct or change its direction.

Our politicians seem to.

Not be able to do this, Albanesi being the most acute version, and I think they need to do that more, to be honest, not be Trump, but be able to trust in what they're saying, and then like if it goes wrong, because it will, Daniel, it will definitely go wrong. I'm not saying this is not a risky strategy. There are ways to actually address that. What's the benefit of it connecting with people authenticity.

The public isn't trusting them because they're not leveling.

They're not bringing you into the conversation of the conundrums we're facing as a culture. There's no process for politicians to go through anymore because they're so worried about consequences, and they've all got to break that or the public will be more distrustful.

Final question, Patricia, given the erosion in trust, given the benefits in division, how will this shape the upcoming election campaign.

I think it'll make it a really hard and negative campaign.

I think the value of.

The straight shooter is really going to be important. Misrepresentation is a problem, so we're going to see everyone misrepresenting. We've seen it before from both sides. We've seen the death taxes campaign in a previous election by the Coalition to scare people from voting for Labor clearly had some impact.

We've seen many scare.

That the Coalition was going to privatize and get rid of Medicare or whatever the charge was.

Essentially it wasn't their plan.

You might not like the Coalition, but you need to also be truthful about what their plan is.

And the truth is. There can be a collection of facts.

You can say this was Peter Dutton's record as Health Minister, right, but he also has just promised to match Labor on health spending.

Both of these things can be true.

Now if the public doesn't believe that he'll deliver, that is vibes and feelings, and they can feel that. But in our domain we deal in facts, not supposition, not vibes, and we must stick to that. And so back to how these campaigns soon to be ugly. We're going to distrust each other and so buckle up because I think that's what's going to happen well.

Thank you for the work that you do, Patricia, and thank you for coming on seven AM.

Thanks for having me.

Also in the news today, Treasurer Jim Chalmers says the US has not yet made a decision on whether Australia will get an exemption on tariffs. The Treasurer says government discussions on the twenty five percent tariffs on aluminum and still imports are still continuing and US President Donald Trump is threatening from US with obliteration, hasn't return all Israeli