This nation. Leading bill and the treaty process as a whole, shows what we can achieve when we listen to first peoples and work together for better outcomes.
When Victorian Premier Justin to Allen introduced Australia's first ever treaty to Parliament, she said it would pave the way for a formal apology, the introduction of Aboriginal truth telling into the school curriculum, and offer a better future for Indigenous Australians in the state.
It honors and affirms a special connection the First Peoples have to country, this place now known as Victoria, which we all call home. It reckons with the wrongs of the past and sets a new course, guided by truth, to a better future.
The treaty is the culmination of almost a decade of work establishing the First People's Assembly, who led the negotiations and delivers on voice, treaty and truth, the three pillars of the Ullerus Statement from the heart, making Victoria the first state in the country to achieve this. Now that
treaty is in its next phase. This week we'll have the results of the election of who will sit in the First People's Assembly, and tomorrow the process of setting up the delegation that will actually decide what treaty looks like in the real world. Begins I'm Daniel James and
you're listening to seven am Today. We're bringing you a two part episode from last year where Ruby Jones speaks with co chairs the First People's Assembly, Nagara Murray and ruben Burg on what they hope Victoria's treaty will deliver and how its success will be measured. It's Sunday, April twenty sixth. This episode first aired in September twenty twenty five.
Niagara, Ruben thank you so much for joining me to be Would you mind just introducing yourself?
Yeah, hello, Nagara Murray, whereby one but you are you wander jar Jamarung and de Royal Woman and elect a co chair of the First People's Assembly.
Rubenberg Proud benigs Maraman and also one of the co chairs of the First People to send me of Victoria.
Well, welcome to ma'am. Thank you so much for coming on the show. The first Treaty with the first peoples of this country has just become a reality. It's been a long road to get here. So to begin to tell me how you're both feeling.
Yeah, I'm feeling good. The historic day for all of us with the introduction of the statewide Treaty Bill in the Parliament. It was a day of emotions and pride and reflection.
Treaty will be a source of pride for all Victorians, representative of a proudly diverse and multicultural state which values its history and all of its people, because this is not about taking anything away from anyone. It's about practical changes to do things better together. I am proud to support this next step in treaty. I am proud that together we are improving people's lives and giving everyone a better future. I commend the bill to the House.
We're just really excited to be in this position in Victoria. And it's been a lot of hard work over the last six years in particular, but nearly a decade of preparatory work. And yeah, we're in a really strong position as we work towards the very first treaty of this country.
Yes, as Nagara said, it's been a very long journey to get us here, across six years of traveling around the whole state, talking with all of our community in every corner of the state, and now to get to this point where it's about to become a reality to now then think forward to let's get the action done. Let's start getting things done rather than having to talk about treat now it can actually activate it.
And obviously I want to talk more about what it all means, but you both mentioned it's been a long road to get here of the last decade, so can you just tell me about some of the kind of key points and then to goiations between the Assembly and the Victorian government.
The first part of the negotiations when we started as an Assembly was really to work out what treaty would look like actually here in this state, because there's lots of different models you can go down for treaty making, and very early on we made I think a really important decision, an agreement with the state that we'd tackle
this as a hybrid model. So we're looking at both statewide treaties, which is the first part of which has gone into the legislation as part of the bill, and then there's also traditional loan and treaties that are happening
in parallel. And so that was I think a really key first part of this process to say we're going to have both and that drew from different models across the globe, and then as we started talking more about the first State White Treaty to say that what we wanted to do is set things up for success and for future conversations, that if we're going to have further negotiations and further conversations, we need to have a really strong democratic, weally elected, tradition loaner led body that can
intersect with government really powerful ways so we can add for better outcomes and then also progress future treaty making.
So tell me then, I guess about the practicalities of that. What is the purpose of the treaty, What does it look like for us?
The treaty will really be about the relationships and the resetting of those relationships between first peoples and the state. As Ruben said, there'll be many treaties. We've got the hybrid approach of the statewide treaty covers all the state wide matters and addresses our affairs within health and housing, education,
and justice, sports. There'll be a number of treaties in the next iteration of the statewide treaty, and then the trite owner treaties will relate to the business of those true owners on their country and their aspirations within their own context. But this is the first modern treaty in over twenty years, we've looked internationally to all the different examples of treaty making in other countries with indigenous peoples,
and it is the first treaty. We can only do so much in this one and then we will pass the button to the next iteration of the Assembly. But it encapsulates all our aspirations, all our demands and asks that we've been fighting for for a long time and putting them into practice. And there's a lot of tangible outcomes that will happen through the first state wide treaty.
But that structural reform is really what we're seeking around how we will govern into the future when it comes to aboriginal affairs.
And just tell me a bit more about that structural reform, the new iteration of the First People's Assembly. What does it look like.
Yeah, so this is the transformation of the Assembly as it is now into this future body, and it sits within this space referred to as galilis, and that's the
kind of overarching landscape or tree making. So within Gallanglas will still be in the First People's Assembly of Victoria as the democratically elected body, and that's the body that we'll be able to talk directly to Parliament, to address Parliament once a year, to meet with Cabinet, to meet with ministers, to have relationships with departments about how when government's developing policies that might affect peoples, how they intersect
and engage with the expertise of first peoples. Also within that space of Gallungwai will be the Nin mah Nanawara, which is their accountability mechanism, and this is something that's very clearly drawn from the work of the Productivity Commission. Last year.
They did a big review.
Onto closing the gap and what needed to be changed to actually see some closing of those gaps, and a key thing they identified was there's not a first people's led body that's actually monitoring the government to see how are they performing and giving them recommendations about what to improve, and so that's what we're creating through Nin mah Nianiawara.
Another component of the Galluwai will be the ongoing truth coming through Tolkuna, and so that will ensure that the powerful work that happened through the truth calling process here in Victoria through yr Rook will be able to be continued. And there's an ongoing role for place based truth calling and to ensure that all Victorians can better understand the history of First Peoples from a first people's perspective.
And so, as you mentioned, their didn't go in while is this access to government? So there's this power to make representations to cabinet, to ministers, to various departments, to both houses of Parliament. So tell me how you imagine that access being used. What's going to be advocated for?
Yeah, So really at this stage it's about a process and the types of things we want to advocate for. Is that's the next conversation to talk with our community. It's not just going to be whoever the coaches are deciding that this is what they want to talk about. There are really strong processes in the legislation and in our own internal processes to make sure we're hearing directly from all parts of the state about what's important and
feeding that in. And we do have the powerful work of your book of four years of our people coming in and giving evidence to show what also needs to change. So that'd be a really key roadmap of the type of things we're going to be advocating for and the future body can advocate for when we do have that greater access to government.
And there is a proviso that nothing in the agreement limits the authority of the Parliament to make laws and conductor's business. So do you feel like there is enough of a guarantee there that the government of the day will listen.
Look, I've heard far too much about the concept of parliamentary sovereignty in the last couple of years, and the ever really need to But we're very mindful that parliament has its role to do and that's rightfully so, given that they're chosen by all the people of the state. So we just want to make sure that when there is a role for government to have decisions that impact first peoples, that they're actually hearing from first peoples about that.
We want to make sure we have really strong relationships. As Nagara said before, that's really key to these processes of being able to sit down and look in the eye of these politicians and say this is what our people need, and this is what our people are saying, and this is what our experts are saying, and hopefully
that sees the change. But if not, we can keep coming back to the table and having those conversations and understand if that's not the approach they think will work, what will and how can we make that work even better?
And we've had a really strong relationship with the state over six years now, you know, right across the political sphere, to ensure that we that support and really entrenched the work that we've done within this system to be able to have strong foundations for treaty and strong relationships as we head into the future.
Coming up, how the success of this treaty will be measured over the coming years, So Reuben and Agara, as part of this treaty, primary and secondary school children will learn more about Victoria's First People's There's going to be a new curriculum developed choosing some of the findings of the commission. So tell me a bit about what might be taught and what you're hoping that that will achieve.
Yeah, Well, the work of Europe has been absolutely profound and the fact that we've now completed the inquiry and we have those hundred recommendations and truth telling in education is really key to the future of this country and how we will coexist together all Victorians within the state understanding the real history, the true history.
I have learned much that I did not know in terms of the true history of the dispossession, what the settlers, the colonizers did when they came to Victoria. I did not know of the massacres. I'm ashamed to say I did not. I have learned about the size and scale of the murders and the massacres through my preparation for my appearance today.
And I think of my own child, a nine year old that's been on this treaty journey with us. She's a bit of a treaty kid. But how amazing would it be for the schools within Victoria to understand the history of this country and celebrate sixty thousand years of culture and what that means to us as the first peoples of this land, and for people to really understand the history of this country, because it is a shared history that we all have as Victorians.
And I think on that as well. Sometimes there can be seen to be just to focus on the more traumatic sides about the history of first people's And obviously it is important that all Victorians can better understand the
true impact of colonization, but it's also about celebrating black excellence. Still, it's about every school kid in Victoria should understand the significance of the aquaculture system down at Budja Bim, and they should understand the significance of people like Nagara's grandfather and great grandfather and all the work of first peoples in progressing that comes across the old State. We want to make sure we're celebrating average on history as well as part of that process.
And the opposition, the Liberal that opposition in Victoria doesn't support the treaty.
It's still a voice to parliament.
The government are trying to put through a voice to Parliament without taking it to the Victorian community.
Is that disappointing?
It's disappointing. Like we've worked really hard to build relationships with the opposition this term and we've got open door policy, so we'll continue that dialogue of the opposition. But yeah, it's disappointing. We work hard on our relationships and I think we'll just continue to do that. But I think they've kind of showed some of their true colors within the parliament. But I think for us, we'll just continue the dialogue with the opposition.
Yeah, and to me. There's two really key components. One is they've spoken about the importance of closing the gap, and we recognize the importance of that too, and that's why we've drawn so heavily from the work of the
Productivity Commission. If I was going to say who knows best about what might need to change for closing the gap, it's first peoples and a Productivity Commission that has done an in depth review and to what needs to change, and so we're delivering on those things from the Closing the Gap Review. And also just to note that this has happened, there's going to be a tree error and we need to make sure we can use that to best benefit for all Victorians and to get better outcomes.
But it's something that's going to be there and we're happy to work with all sides of government to make that work as effectively and efficiently as possible.
And this is the first Australian treaty. You mentioned that international examples were looked at while this was being formulated. Can you tell me a bit more about that and the lessons that you've taken from elsewhere.
Yeah, there's a lot of learnings and lessons and we speak I'm really closely with our different indigenous brothers and sisters across the globe, and we've recently visited with the Maldi to have some strong relations there to learn from their treaties and the history of the Treaty of Waitangi. We talk with the Mob in the States, like with the Native American Mob and the British Columbian Mob Saami.
We've looked at all the different examples and I think from Ruben's perspective, we've got a poss and skin cloak analogy where we've put together some of the best examples and learnings of successful treaties and we've adapted that and
tailored that to our approach. And I think we're in a really strong position and we've got a lot of support right across the globe, and I know that a lot of Indigenous peoples and even our different countrymen and women across the different jurisdictions of Australia are watching and supporting us from afar. So it's pretty exciting to think that we will have a treaty in a modern context and the very first one of its clients in Australia.
Yeah, and Leonnafin talk a lot about how Victoria is leading the way in a national perspective, but we're just catching up with the rest of the globe. Like coal Off countries have had these treaty processes in place for a long long time now, so it's really as important to see this from a global perspective.
And so how will you measure the success of this treaty and say, five or ten years time, how big is the scale of the change that you hope that this will make.
Yeah, I think that our community will be the measures of success, and hopefully we see our communities continue to thrive and see the ability to actually take control of our own lives and actually thrive in our own communities and have our culture be really strong. That's what we're looking for, and we want to make sure that we have all of our community participating and involved in these processes, and that'll be, from my perspective, the true measure of success.
I think a key issue we've faced in a lot of these spaces is that so often what success looks like is dictated by external measures, where government are deciding that these are the measures of success. And now we're entering towards the process where we as first peoples will be able to determine what we think success looks like and measure that against our own ideas, which is really important.
Well, Nagara Rubin, thank you so much to be your time.
Thank you our pleasure.
This is the first part of a two part episode. In the next episode, I speak to writer and my seven AM co host Daniel James about the politics of the treaty and why other states and territories have abandoned their own treaty processes.
So the response from sections of the media was entirely predictable, trying to conflate it with things like the referendum, which is a completely different thing. This is it, this is what's happening, and if people want to conflate that with the referendum result for political purposes, then we'll wave to them as we go over the hill and down the road.
It's called the politics and pushback, and it's in your feet now.