‘Muzzling’ advocates: the Albanese government’s reliance on NDAs

From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am.

The Albanezy government was elected on a promise of transparency and accountability.

It also said that compared to the.

Previous coalition government, it was prepared to consult and listen to make sure a wide range of voices from the community and advocates were heard. But a number of groups say there's been a creeping trend of the government using non disclosure agreements during closed door consultations, even threatening imprisonment if the gag orders are breached. Today, chief political correspondent for the Saturday paper Karen Ballow on the government's turn

Well.

I was having a look at how the government has been going with secrecy and transparency. There's been a lot around the moment with the way the National Anti Coruption Commission is going and about other issues to do with whistleblowers. But I start looking deeply at the comments of Tim Costello, the Chief advocate for the Alliance a gambling reform, and that was in particular about how he was asked to sign an NDA and asked up about it immediately.

What did that NDA say?

Well, basically, I don't quite know because it's fifteen pages and it had to be sent off to law years to actually say.

He was asked to sign a non disclosure agreement much like the major sporting codes and the gambling bodies such as sport Bet, to be inside the tent as the Albanese government sorted out its gambling reforms, which we're still deceived recording.

Tim, you were presented with what is it? At twelve?

So I wanted to actually speak to him about it, and he cheerfully told me that this was something that was completely remarkable. In a long history of advocating for people in areas such as charities and gambling reform, it's never happened to him before, and in.

Thirty plus years of dealing with gambling, I had never been asked to deal with that delvery closely and confidentially with Julia Gillard as Prime Minister when I.

Had negotiations directly with Julia Gillard, and he was never asked to sign a gag, and he took great personal offense about it.

One, that's an insult to my character that if it's confidential, they keep it confidential.

Two, it's never happened before, So what really is the motivation here?

And that's why I refuse to sign it, and the Alliance for Gambling or Reform, we're I'm the chief advocate, refused to sign it.

This was something that led to him speaking to the Communications Minister. He asked her about this and said, you know, you're trying to muzzle us by using these gags, and she said, well, no, actually this is just government practice, routine government practice.

Now, so what do we know about the detail of these kinds of non disclosure agreements?

Have you seen one of them?

I have, I've been given a couple of examples, but I understand they change for the circumstance, and that's an to the people who are concerned about signing them. And let's just take a step back. These are used quite widely, and I'm finding out it's quite routine. But you only find out about them if people don't sign them. People who sign them, by their very nature keep it quiet.

Are kept on the quiet.

And the issue for some of these bodies is that they may not have a lot of cash around to pay for a lawyer who's expert in nondisclosure agreements to sort out exactly what they're signing up to.

In that case, then do you get the sense that these groups who are providing advice to the government feel like they have to sign these agreements in order to engage.

Is there some pressure.

Here, absolutely pressure to sign this.

I spoke to the head of the Australian Council of Social Service, Cassandra Goldie, who's been around for many years advocating on behalf of people who are on low incomes and people that are desperate in the community, and she objects to signing these non disclosure agreements. She's been around for a while, she feels that she can speak to me about it, and I spoke to her about it that it really concerned her, but she says that other

Stops those groups inside.

The tent from going back out to people have lived experience and asking them what they think and whether these reforms will work for them.

And so, what are some of the consequences then attached to these NDAs if someone was to break one.

Well, I looked into some of the examples I had, and what was a recurring theme is that they could face ten years in jail. Now, whether this actually has been used against someone, I don't think so, but we don't know. And I did ask various departments whether they had pursued someone over a breach, and they did not answer that particular question.

And whether or not that penalty of jail time is enforced. The threat itself, I think is enough to make someone feel like they absolutely cannot reveal what they've been told and what's been discussed.

Right, that's exactly the force of it. That's exactly right.

Coming up after the break, how a party that campaigned on transparency, let's secrecy creep in.

Karen.

When the Abenese government came to power, it was on the back of a lot of promises around transparency. You've been speaking to people advocates in the social services sector who say that the opposite is happening. They're being made to feel like they can't speak openly because of the use of non disclosure agreements. So tell me how this use squares with the Albenese government's commitments.

Yeah.

So, in finding out that there's been this escalation of the use of these gags under the Labor government, it's been quite surprising and it's been surprising to some of the groups that have been experiencing it.

And they do point to the.

Coalition that it did happen under the coalition, but not to such an extent. Yes, the Labor government, when it was seeing the opposition, did campaign on a platform of transparency and openness.

Because you've got to remember, I mean, it's not hard.

To forget that the Morrison government at its very end was you know, the government that brought in the Scott Morrison Secret Ministries.

That was quite an extraordinary time.

And now we have this creeping of non disclosure agreements and other confidentiality arrangements.

That are required as a way of doing business.

This story has also got some interest from some of the independent crossbenches. I asked, thank you, President. I asked at General Business notice of Motion number six three six be taken as a formal motion. Lydia Thorpe has actually stood up and used Senate powers to ask the government to produce documents relating to non disclosure agreements, and that will be really interesting to see what she gets back.

Moved the motion.

She's asked that the government inform and lay on the table what participants are are to sign. How many non disclosure agreements are signed by community sector organizations and other stakeholders. And she also wants to know, and this be really interested to hear this the number of breaches of government non disclosure agreements.

Okay, So how does the Labor government defend the use of NDAs? Then what do they say about it?

So I did speak to a senior member of the government.

It's a difficult one for labor because of how they campaigned on transparency and then the reality of being inside government.

Now.

I also spoke to departments. I went to the bureaucracy about their use of these non disclosure agreements because they do it as well when they are consulting on legislation reforms other talking points. I did ask various departments whether they had pursued someone over a breach, and they did not answer that particular question. They also did not answer my question as to whether these uses of non disclosure

That they are being consulted on. So they're trying to point out.

That they're not entirely gagged, but they cannot discuss those particular items, those particular pieces of legislation, the big piece of reform that they are being brought into the tenton.

Does the federal government have a case here if what they're saying is true that they are concering more with these groups, do you think that it's a fair enough defense that they therefore want to attempt to keep, as you say, what could be quite robust discussions private.

It's a delicate balance, and I guess what we're seeing here is that the groups that are taking part feel that the balance has been tipped too far towards secrecy. That they do understand and they genuinely want to be inside the tent, but they feel that they are being stifled. I mean, just going back to Tim Costello, he's still got a meeting with the Communications Minister, probably as the mark of his long standing advocacy and good standing in

In their view and Karen NDA's they were originally intended to be used for sensitive commercial dealings. So you know, for example, you can't share the secret recipe to make coke with the company Pepsi. But we now see them all over the place. Celebrities use them. We know that women who have been sexually harassed have felt pressured.

To sign them.

In some cases they've turned up in normal work contracts. So what does this kind of creep, the creep of NDAs. What does that say to you about a level of distrust and perhaps even paranoia that's entered life and politics.

I think there's incredible distrust and paranoia. I would really agree with that.

I think politicians are so shy reform and taking on the big.

Chances these days.

I mean, you only have to look at the charaent debate over housing and negative gearing. LABE sinks so burnt from being knocked back by voters in twenty nineteen. It's a tortuous process to float these ideas, to do the big reform, to get the legislation right. You have to get all your ducks in a row these days. So there you understand the requirement for the NDAs.

But look, it's not just NDAs. You've got other elements of getting big reform right.

You've got like market testing and you've got internal polling. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes before a politician dares to say this is what I'm going to do, and this is what I'm going to stake my political future on, and this is what I'm taking to the next election. And we're really nearing the election now, so you know, to be brave is.

A big problem.

So yeah, I think there's quite a large amount of distrust.

It also has to do with a.

Twenty four second media cycle. But is this the right level of transparency. It's a real problem for them.

Karen, thank you so much for your time.

Thank you very much.

Also in the news today, the Australian government is warning that they don't have the capacity to provide assistance to all Australian citizens trying to flee Lebanon. On Monday, Israeli airstrikes and Lebanon killed nearly five hundred and injured more than fifteen hundred, marking the deadliest day of conflict between the two countries since two thousand and six. Foreign Minister Penny Wong is urging Australians in Lebanon to leave immediately

Or early twenty twenty five. I'm Ruby Jones seven a m. We'll be back tomorrow