Star Wars: Heir to the Empire (1991)

Hey, it's your old pal Slim, and welcome to a special bonus episode of 70MM. With me, as always, is artist Danny Haas. Hello. And our Star Wars insider, Proto-Lexus. Men want only one thing, and it's Lady Vader. Even aliens. Aliens only want one thing, it's Lady Vader. This is our first ever book club episode. As far as I'm aware, the first ever book club podcast ever. No one has ever thought to cover a book.

let alone a Star Wars book. But we decided that it would be fun after Proto started reading this Star Wars Heir to the Empire. This is from 1991. And if you're born, I don't know, most of our audience, I think it's probably in their late 20s, early 30s. They have no idea what this is. Just get this. After Return of the Jedi, they didn't do anything else for a while. That was it.

And there's no Disney Plus shows. There's nothing. And then 1991 rolls around and they put this book out, which takes place five years after Return of the Jedi, this three-book series. And this was it. This was like the next trilogy. And that's how you lived. Not to bring up Harry Potter, but I feel like Harry Potter books are kind of like the closest thing.

Like Harry Potter only existed in books, but there was like an event atmosphere when those books came out. Prado, how do you feel about the innovation that we're doing on 70MM when it comes to books? It is something that we've talked about doing in the past, and I'm glad that we're branching out and trying something different. I don't know what this conversation is going to look like because we usually talk about movies.

You know, we know how to do that. We're not experts on movies, but we're definitely not experts on books either. You know, for some of us, this might be our first book of the year. First book in the last five years, let's be honest here. So, let's see. Danny, how do you feel? This is in our wheelhouse, Star Wars, Heir to the Empire, though.

I mean, I'm excited to talk about it with you guys. It's something I haven't revisited in, I mean, a decade, maybe. It's been a long time, but it's always like... It's always that deep cut for Star Wars nerds. Like when you bring up anything heir to the end, like legacy stuff, legacy. Or Legends, sorry, not Legacy. Legends, Star Wars. I mean, Heir to the Empire is the top shelf when it comes to that. And I still don't understand how it's not just a movie. Yeah, right. Like, what are we doing?

I mean, this should be on Filoni's top priority. This book is probably on his nightstand. He probably reads this every night. It's under his pillow. Yeah. It's his Bible. Yeah. Well, isn't he doing an Heir to the Empire movie? That's what it's called. That's a tentative title, I think. Right.

He's using the title. So this was called like the extended universe, the EU back then. Barely any oversight. There's no Lucasfilm story group back then. We'll get into it. They did have pushback on this book a little bit. Really? I read that like Lucas is, they asked Lucas, he's like, just don't do anything Anakin Skywalker or bring back Palpatine. And then he's like, I don't care otherwise.

We'll get it. We'll get into it, folks. Don't break back Palpatine. Disney's first thing. And then literally the comic book does that like later that year. So lots to digest. This is going to be a really fun conversation. I love the lore. of like the star wars eu and how it became legends and this is kind of where you went to find out what the heck happened to luke back then no cgi face back then It's books and comics and leather dusters. Proto, what's this book all about?

So we begin five years after the Battle of Endor. The Empire's in shambles. The New Republic has taken over Coruscant, begins building a new government. But the remnants of the Empire have consolidated under the control of a previously unknown Grand Admiral, Thrawn, who's a military genius, and he's hard at work to topple the Republic.

before it can establish itself. And one way he does that is by uncovering the Emperor's secret base on the planet Weyland that holds some secret weapons. Guarding the storehouse is an insane Jedi clone. Joris. Classic. And Thrawn convinces him to help the Empire for an exchange. He wants the lives of a family of Jedi, Luke and Leia Skywalker.

and Leia's two unborn children. So, with that, can Luke and Leia, along with Han, Lando, Chewie, and the gang, unravel the secret plans of Thrawn before it's too late? That's Heir of the Empire. You forgot about our favorite Wedge Antilles. Oh yes, Wedge. I love how you're hung up on Wedge, Slim. Wedge Antilles is a very important secondary character in this book. I mean, I'll get into it by the hour. It's funny to me how...

so much that is referenced in this book is literally just the original trilogy. And then in my head, it's like, well, of course, because those are the only other Star Wars stories that exist. Luke often references Dagobah. and Yoda but like often and I'm like well I guess what else would you reference there's no other stories and like memories that he can fall back on so 1991

I was eight years old when this was coming out. I was not reading the novels at this time, but I did eventually start reading the novels, you know, looking for more because I...

I think Return of the Jedi was like my first Star Wars thing back then when I was younger, like a teenager. And I was kind of hungry to find more. But Heir to the Empire was like the nerdy... book for me or whatever for some reason because so I drifted towards the comics which was Dark Empire and then eventually the Jedi Academy trilogy so I think when I was younger I didn't care about the gang I cared about Luke

So I didn't really want to read the Thrawn trilogy, even though Thrawn was super popular and this book series was super popular. What about you, Pardo? Yeah, we were talking about this on the show. I think it was in the uncut of one of our episodes. I grew up having these books in my house. older brother, Joey, was a huge Star Wars nerd. And, you know, I had seen the movies, but for whatever reason, and I guess I was, you know, probably like 10, 11, 12 when I was looking at these.

I just remember staring at the covers of these books, enthralled at like what was inside of them. But. The idea as a, you know, a 12 year old to read a 400 page novel was like, it just seemed like an impossible task. Like I didn't even attempt to open it to read it. I was just like, there's no way.

I don't have enough time. They're like, I'll never read all these words. So my 12-year-old brain couldn't comprehend, like, beginning a book like this. So I didn't even attempt it. But just the cover, like, that's why I went on and I bought the copies on eBay.

original covers because i was just like they're so imprinted in my mind yeah of uh like joris on the cover with the lightning shooting out of his fingers just like i felt like i i lived some kind of idea of what these books were just from the covers so that's that was really my only um engagement with these at all so i knew of them but i didn't oh and then the other thing was at a certain point i played the game tie fighter

So they, you know, I mean, the 90s was kind of a golden age for Star Wars video games. And they had... TIE Fighter, X-Wing, TIE Fighter versus X-Wing, you know, Rebel Alliance, all these kind of games and played a bunch of them. But I remember playing TIE Fighter where you you're basically just a TIE Fighter pilot in the Empire under. thrones command uh and i had a joystick and i i played that entire game and it like blew my mind i felt like i was living

a Star Wars movie that didn't exist. So I remember just like being obsessed with that game and playing all the missions and loving it. So that was really my, that was my first experience with Thrawn, the character. golly Danny what about you I I actually well since my introduction of Star Wars wasn't until uh phantom menace in 99 so none of this was remotely on my radar um until i just became enraptured with star wars when the phantom menace came out and at the time i had a

dear friend of mine who's now moved away. Um, so we're not as close, but, um, he was a massive star Wars nerd. Um, Andy and he, On like Saturdays, we would drive around to like all the spots to hunt for Star Wars toys, go to comic book shops.

and buy other Star Wars toys. I was just buying Star Wars toys left and right. And he's like, oh, by the way, here are these novels. You should read them. And he had the Heir of the Empire stuff. And that's when I, that's the first time I kind of read it. This was probably... I don't know, man. I mean, this was still way past, I mean, probably closer to Revenge of the Sith time frame when I finally got into these books.

I was just kind of blown away that so much content existed outside of the movies. I knew of the comics, but like didn't really care about the novels. I didn't read a ton of books like that then. And then now all I have are like. 20 different paperbacks of Star Wars novels that have just kind of changed everything. But Herod of the Empire is like the best. I mean, it's easily my favorite. It helps so much too that...

they hit jackpot with these artists doing Star Wars posters, but then also the work on the books. Yeah. Like, it feels so connected to what they did with the movies that like, this is a movie. Like, the art, like, this is... the likeness of the actors so I need to read this because this is what's next yeah I mean they even got Struzan doing some of these book covers which is bonkers yeah the book cover art is insane yeah maybe the best in history on books up until that point he even did

the Indiana Jones covers. Golly. Which they were just cooking. They were absolutely cooking. Yeah, and years ago, I'm not sure, we probably talked about this in the show. The show's been going on for five years, folks, if you've been listening to it. Really? But, you know, Clone Wars was probably my first Thrawn introduction as like the next Vader type character that is the main bad guy. And he was pretty cool.

And then eventually you get Thrawn, sorry to bring this up, but the Ahsoka television show Thrawn appears and he can't navigate his way out of a paper bag. Yeah. Well, rebels, you mean rebels. Rebels, or sorry, sorry, sorry, rebels. Fake fan. It's okay. There's so much. There is a lot. There's 50 different titles. Yeah, but there's just so much out there. And looking back, I was furiously Googling.

who was in charge of saying yes to these books? Like who's overseeing them? And it's like, nobody really like looking back, it's crazy that they didn't have the oversight because of what we know now. But back then, you know, Lucas is just kind of hand wavy, like, yeah, do whatever. Just don't do Vader and don't bring back Palpatine. So it seems like they had free reign. Having said that.

The thing that I loved growing up was Dark Empire, which is a comic book from Dark Horse from, I think it was Rick Veach. cam kennedy i love the colors and i love the storyline that's the one where like palpatine is resurrected as a clone right and luke joins the dark side to save everyone like he's he's so confident that he can like exit the dark side

But that came out like months after this book and Timothy Zahn had no idea. So there's just like no connective tissue whatsoever. So Mara Jade is not in Dark Empire. It takes place after the Thrawn trilogy. It was like the Wild West. And it's crazy to look back that that's how it was. And they made it out alive somehow. Before we move on. Yeah, please. When I think about Heir to the Empire and even...

dark empire, stuff like that. I really wish Disney would have the gall to just do what DC does, like with the Batman and have an Elseworlds and just make media. That is legends. Like have legends media where it doesn't have to be connected. And we make these rant, like Luke joining the dark side.

to take down the Empire. Like, that story is bonkers. Just make it. Just make it animated. I don't care what. But just have like... these legend stories that are like campfire stories that people tell each other like just do that like why not gold mine it's all it's you know it's all made up Anyway, this is real. I keep seeing these these Reddit posts and it won't be like just like Star Wars stuff. It'll be in like other, you know.

fictionalized universes. Like I saw one the other day where someone, they're like, in Return of the Jedi, how is the Death Star operational when it's only like half built? And then people are in the comments, well, see, they could. So they like just did the laser portion and the throne room. And it's like, guys, none of this is actually real. Like, we don't need to justify how it's all possible.

Well, they'll be like, you know, like how much, how could they afford a second Death Star in Return of the... Like people get caught up in this minutia that's like, guys, none of this is real. It doesn't actually matter. I hope that that energy is is continued when we finally cover Tross on this. Oh, my God.

I don't want to get it. We don't have time to get into that right now. You have to talk about Tross when we talk about the Empire. I mean, it has to be brought up. Pulling back a little bit, the idea of, I mean, the Elseworlds. It's already branded. Just call it Legends. Do Heir to the Empire. Do Dark Empire. Hurt is totally right. Do the Jedi Academy. You have stories that are already written.

Yeah. Maybe like minimal changes. And you can do these animated series. Like they're doing some of those like tales of the Sith or whatever the mini episodes they're doing with like Ventress or whoever. Yeah, that stuff is so fun. And like. You have other stuff that is tried and true. Like, just do that also. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, they won't do anything with Luke, so what the hell? Right, they can't do Mary Jane if there's no Luke. Yeah.

They're not going to do anything because they're not smart like us. Frodo, what's the top of your list for Heir to the Empire? And what version did you consume? You read, you didn't listen to any audiobook drama, audio dramas. Yeah, I went and I don't know if it's a first edition, but I just went and bought the paperback on eBay that, you know, I guess it came out in 90s.

Yeah, 92 or 93. And that's what I read. And I actually preferred this version. You know, it's like classic paperback, really small, really thick, like a ton of text on each page. Yeah, reading it now, I was amazed at how easy of a read this was. I'm kind of kicking myself. I was like, idiot 12-year-old me. You should have just read it. Because it doesn't feel like a 400-page book.

And I think that's due to how it's written. Like Timothy Zahn, he has a great ability as a writer to propel, like every chapter is like propelling the story forward with the characters. There's action. in every single chapter. We're never standing around having long, drawn out conversations. And if we are, it's like we're in a spaceship going somewhere or suddenly like they have a plan and they're trying to figure it out. And oops, here's the, you know, a Star Destroyer just came in.

orbit, we're in trouble. The amount of just surprises and falling forward and... Things, plans getting broken and just characters colliding happens throughout the whole book that these books are just, you can see why I like they're so beloved because they're such an easy, entertaining read. That like at no point was I like struggling.

at all with any of this. And it kind of, it's like, it feels like a time warp reading this. Like I would read a, I'd be like, how did I just read a hundred pages? Like it felt like I read 10 pages. So, I mean, they're, I think they're timeless in that way just because it has such great writing. Yeah, it was, it's also just like fun to be back in the world, like for me consuming something brand new in Star Wars, but like in the time period that I want like more stuff in.

And it was pretty easy reading. I got the hardcover. There was like a deal on eBay. Is eBay considered thrifting? I guess it would be, right? Yeah, why not? I'm a thrift king at this point on eBay. Okay. I got the two hardcovers of the first two books of this three book series. And it came with, unbeknownst to me, a film sell from A New Hope as like a bonus. So that was a nice little thing.

And I kind of knew that, like, I think I even said in our DMs, like, I can't wait to read 20 pages and then give up and then get the audio book, which is exactly what I did. I don't know, just like, it's... It just made sense for me to listen to it while I was driving back and forth to hockey. So I got the audio drama version that came out a couple years ago. They did the anniversary edition.

And it has sound effects. This guy, what's his name? Is it Mark Thompson did the voices of everyone? And he's doing like, you know, imitations of these characters and they are on point. They're absolutely on point. point his Luke is amazing his Leia I mean he's doing these effeminate voices but it fits like his Mara Jade there's so much Mara Jade in there that I'm just like envisioning Mara Jade it's this dude doing Mara Jade's voice

So the audio drum, I can't recommend enough. It was like 16 bucks on Apple, but it is incredible. It's, you know, 13 hours. They got music. When there's a space battle, you hear the lasers going in the background. R2 beeping away when they're having a conversation. The hum of a lightsaber in those fights. So that...

I mean, and I was thankful to find out that the next two are the same way. So we wanted to continue the other, the audio drummers exist for the other two books. I think that's how you read or listened to Danny, right? Yeah, at this point, this is how I consume most of my media is audio. So I was on the service that we won't mention here. So I had the audio book for free, actually, for the month.

Yikes. And I was right there with you, Slim. The guy doing the voices was unreal. The sound effects were there. But the moment John Williams' score kind of picked up. under the conversation i guess i felt like myself like gripping my mouse tighter like what is happening like Like I was getting so excited. Like it felt like it felt so Star Wars. And everything that we love about Star Wars is kind of like either like layered in there in the back. I mean, I can't praise this enough. It was unreal.

It was more than an audiobook. Yeah, it is. It's way more. In fact, if all audiobooks can be produced this way, I'm sure there's no extra cost involved, but please just make it happen. No licensing products. Let's see. Top of my list. Gosh, there's so many things I want to talk about. There's no top, but let's get into marriage aid.

Thank you. Mara Jade, I think my first introduction to Mara Jade was Masters of the Taras Kasi. Oh my gosh. Remember that video game? Yes. Where there's like a fighting style in the Star Wars universe. The kid just said that sentence.

It was like my all-time favorite game. You goddamn nerd. And I remember getting, I don't know if it was EGM or GamePro Lookup after the show, but there was like, you know, computer generated versions of the characters in 3D on the cover. And I was like, oh my God, this looks so cool. And so I think that that was where I first heard about her. And.

My memories of her are really vague, obviously, because I didn't read the Thrawn trilogy, so I didn't know her backstory. I just know that her and Luke were like maybe adversaries and fell in love and got married eventually in the books. And to reiterate, like folks can like plot out. the lives of all these characters in the books it's like you can read years and years and find out how they all lived and died it's pretty crazy like i remember uh growing up that like

There was rumors that a Star Wars character would die in a new novel, and it was like Chewie. Chewie died in a novel or something. Who cares about Chewie, honestly? Oh, my God. I loved Mara in this book because she has this like shady backstory. This is her first appearance. She's working for, what's that guy's name? Was it Card? Do you remember? Yeah, Talon Card. Talon Card, who I have to bring up.

Mark Thompson did his voice as a Ricardo Montalban accent. Like, he's doing Khan from Star Trek as this character. There's no question about it. But Mara Jade's backstory of like this, she has, she has hate for Luke Skywalker. She maybe is connected to the force and you don't even really hear her backstory reveal until the very end. She's like, you ruined my life.

And they reference the Jabba the Hutt scene from Return of the Jedi as being connected to this backstory. And she reveals that initially she was a dancer at Jabba's palace, but she was undercover.

because she was the emperor's hand like she was emperor palpatine's kind of shadowy mercenary maybe jedi something or other but like she was working behind the shadows and when he destroyed the emperor and the empire like her life was over because no one knew she existed she had no connections palpatine was it so she had to like start over so i love mara and i love her backstory and i can't wait to honestly like keep going to find out

how things progress pro what did you think of marriage aid yeah i love it too i love that it's not like a straight up love interest i actually don't know i'm i'm on the last command now and i i don't know how this ends with her. Like, I don't know the story. So I'm like, really fascinated. It's like, are they like, are we, are they going to kiss? Like, or is she going to kill her? Like, I don't know.

But I just love like that approach to the character because it's kind of surprising that it's like not a direct love interest. And of course, it's like, oh, she's a woman and they got like this this conflict. So it's like it's it's there. But the way she like hates him so much and like tells him to his face that she's going to kill him someday.

um and then him being them being trapped on that planet and he can't use his force powers and she's basically like dragging him around handcuffed um Yeah, it's just like such a great setup to have this character who's kind of like an antihero in the middle of this story because she's. She's technically like a bad guy and wants to kill our hero, but she keeps getting delayed and has reasons not to. And you can see the conflicts.

kind of like slowly rising throughout the book. And like you're saying, it's not until the end that you figure out her story. And it's like such a great payoff. It's like, oh my God, she worked directly for the emperor, the emperor's hand. Which is also an amazing name. It is.

And just like having like pulling these things out of just like this idea that she's she was there in Return of the Jedi. We just she was like off screen, you know. So like all those bits, it's just like a great way to work a character into this story. um uh based on like things that exist previously i just sent you a dm of some of the like artwork for taras kasi

I mean, how do you say no to promo art like that in, I don't know, what was the mid-90s when this came out? Late 90s? Dang. Unreal. Like, how hot is that? I did that poster. I know. That is like... Totally like a Tekken reskin. It was, yeah. The game wasn't very good, but the artwork promoting the game was pretty sick. Danny, your thoughts on Mara?

Oh, man. Mara was my first note as well. I think she's the reason I love the Thrawn trilogy more now than I did then. I think then I was just so infatuated with Luke.

and his arc in the story but now when I listen to it I'm like man Mera really had the juice like her like I feel like possibly the most layered character that Zahn created in all of this even more so more than Thrawn I think Her whole identity, her purpose of being the Emperor's Hand, being the secret assassin, is all destroyed by Luke. By killing the emperor. So her identity and her connection to the emperor is what she had and it was what, who she was. And so like her.

One mission now is to kill Luke Skywalker. And she's not like driven by hate. She's only driven by like loss of what she had in her identity. And I just find that fascinating because I don't think. where she's like set up at least in my mind maybe because I know the whole story reading it now it's like she's not like a villain to me she's and I don't even find her as like the anti-hero either I don't know

But as the story unfolds, as Mara has to work with Luke, the man that she has to kill, I mean, she starts to give in to her mission. She starts to question her mission of killing Luke. And she just begins to change over the entire arc. And what started as some sort of survival is more like introspection.

I don't know. She represents the possibility of redemption outside of the Jedi-Sith binary that we've always had in Star Wars. And she's not light. She's not dark. She's not trained by some traditional way. She's just a person, wounded, complex, and she's capable of growth. And it's what I love about the story. And it's interesting, too, how certain characters almost just disappear.

in the book like like the battle at the imperial area like she and luc are together but then she kind of just like disappears into the darkness and then is not heard of again for the rest of the book And also Sabaoth. There was a period of four hours of the audiobook, and I was like, where the F is Sabaoth? Is he coming back or not? But it's just really set up for...

Or a three-parter. Oh, it really is. They didn't call it a trilogy. What'd they call it in the book? It's like a three-book cycle. What the hell is that? Cycle. That was on the cover of the first book. So you knew that there was two more coming. After this. So that was pretty fascinating. I did have the thought like after like starting to read the second book and now being on the third one, like after reading this first book, I was like, man, they should have made these movies. But I think.

I don't know if it's like a one-to-one, like that they could make a three-movie trilogy with these. Because it does, like almost calling it like a three-book cycle does make sense because it feels more like one. Big book. Big story. Yeah. Because even like the end of this book, it doesn't have like, I think like an amazing cliffhanger or kind of like this. I mean, it has a battle scene, right? That's really great. The sleuth van.

like battle but it doesn't feel like they're setting up for like a sequel in a way that I would necessarily want and like some of the things that I would like expect to have like some kind of resolution like they don't even They don't bring it to you at all. So it does, but like if this was like a TV series, like I feel like it would be like amazing. Oh my God. Yeah, for real. I mean, I don't, I think Heir to the Empire, the first book, would almost have to be multiple movies.

Because there's too many characters. There's too many characters who Zahn has fleshed out quite well in the first book that I don't even think they could nail with a two-hour movie. Yeah, but the first book, spoilers, the first book ending with Admiral Ackbar being arrested. That's the cliffhanger. Oh, God. Imagine that happening in theaters. Admiral Ackbar getting carted away at everyone. What? Not the Admiral? See you next year. Directed by George Lucas. Flash is on the screen.

Uh, Danny, what's on your list? Well, let's talk about Thrawn. Um, I think when Air to the Game Buyer came out in like 91, I don't think anyone expected, uh, Like, Thrawn to not be a Sith. He doesn't use the Force, doesn't need to. What makes him the baddie is his intellect. And he represents the kind of villain that was not really seen, at least often then in Star Wars, this kind of strategic genius who just believes in order, discipline.

cultural understanding. He has no baseline for empathy. I found him incredible. I love his design as a Chiss. race, the blue, the red eyes. He's just, he's like a strike. Like I think he's up until Ahsoka. He's kind of been portrayed as like this. I just love his style and the way he looks. But like, there's something about him is not what makes him kind of fascinating. He's like, I don't feel like he's like cruel, like evil. Like there's something about, I don't know. He's not like.

power hungry in the way that Palpatine was not kind of driven by revenge. Like Vader, he's just kind of calm collected, uh, almost respectful to his enemies. And I just, I found the layers of Thrawn. to be just real fascinating. There's just something about him that I'm drawn to. It almost leads to a dweebiness as well. He can just kind of be pushed over and tripped.

to be defeated so there's like that like vulnerability to him that I like I don't know there's I think Thrawn is incredible I like that aspect too I like there's a lot of references in the story to him being different than the emperor and vader and like there's that his lieutenant or captain palion who's like always with him who's like expecting him to like kill the subordinate

But Thrawn is always like chooses. Look at this art. Yeah, he just like you're saying, like he has just like a different a different way of dealing with subordinate. And then like rather than ruling through fear, he like rules. by gaining someone's respect. So I really like that to the character, although I feel like some of it with Thrawn, it gets a little, like, okay, he's a genius.

But some of the things that he figures out is almost like this guy would have to be Force sensitive. Because he's like, hmm, that tree is tilted. That means Luke Skywalker's on this planet. Come on, bro. He was giving me Solomon. That's how they find Bigfoot. He was giving me Solomon Lane vibes. Yes, I predicted this. He's like, Pellion, why would two cruisers leave Cards? cards hq and then not tell us what would you surmise from that uh paleon

Oh, they don't want us to know who's in that speeder. Oh, yes. And who else would you think would be on that speeder? You'd mean to say Luke Skywalker is on that speeder, Thrawn? That was like the whole final act. Having said that. It is a nice change of pace for me who hasn't read these Thrawn books to have someone who's like a Grand Admiral being like strategic.

in all of his thinking and then kind of explaining his thinking was a treat. His entire scheme of getting to Weyland because he thinks that there's a Jedi or a dark Jedi guarding this like, you know. loot the emperor's loot garden and eventually getting it and then revealing his plan slowly that like Sabaoth he wants Sabaoth to like help him control How about that plot that, like, they said that Palpatine was using the dark side to control...

the Empire soldiers to like give them a little bit of an amp up to be better pilots, better shooters. And like in war, he was essentially using the force to control them. I'd never heard of that before. So cool. I mean, we'd never heard of it and we never really see it in any sort of material afterwards. So I feel like it's only ever used in this. Right. And I don't know if Thrawn was like theorizing that that was the case or I can't remember if he...

I don't know if he was like, maybe it was never revealed. He's like, but I have a theory that Palpatine was controlling because he gets Sabaoth and then promises him power, like endless power and like Luke Skywalker. And then there's like that scene where Sabaoth is doing it. Remember, he's like, he's exerting the force over, you know, hundreds of pilots to control them or whatever. Pretty fascinating. Yeah, that's such a cool idea. I love that. Yeah, so I do appreciate Thrawn.

However, I wonder like how tired I will get of hearing Thrawn do this bit over three books of like espousing that he's ahead of everyone or saying why his way is so smart or like, I don't know, like. Hearing him talk for three books is probably going to be pretty tiring, but for one book, I thought it was pretty good. Stay tuned.

I googled Thrawn Islamari because I remember growing up, all I could see was just like, you know, that little like creature on his shoulders. So that was finally revealed to me as to why. he had that but then i just saw like live action thrown and it's just like this guy out of here you know i know he's the voice actor everybody but um yeah how about the islamari

like these creatures that blocked out the force. That feels like a video game thing to like make sure you're not overpowered in a video game as a Jedi. I thought that was pretty cool. Have this in your backpack to not be overpowered. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like... That feels like so wacky and off the wall. Like George Lucas would like throw this book across the room if you put this in my universe. It also feels like they felt like.

Jedi Knight Luke was almost too OP, so they had to bring him down a peg for the story to work. Maybe that's a problem with why there's no Luke stories. Maybe they just think he's too powerful. How can you craft a story with an all-powerful Jedi Master? I don't know. We're still getting Superman stories. Good point. Well played. Someone can write it. They're smart people. Whose turn is it? Is it Danny's turn? It's your turn. My turn? Lady Vader is one of my points.

Maybe one of the coolest things ever uttered in the Star Wars universe is when that alien called Leia Lady Vader. Oh my God. Give me a comic book series called Lady Vader, Elf Worlds or something. It's just all Leia. Gosh, that would be sick. So she's like pregnant with the twins in this book. And there's like this weird alien race appearing at various points of the book to try to assassinate her. Yeah, the Nagori or the Nagri. Yeah.

One does not because I guess he like sniffed out that she was Darth Vader's daughter and they had like an agreement with Vader. They kind of like love and respected Vader in their own way. And I'm guessing that that will... play into the next two books, but they're like assassination, assassination attempts ends and, um, because they had this conversation and he explains like that lady Vader stuff, but.

Yeah, I love that stuff. She's the OP diplomat. Laying us out to talk people down. Yeah, I thought that was cool too. You get the inner thinking of her of trying to... sound confident almost like trying to be like Luke in some of these discussions with the alien to like assert you know Jedi dominance over them

to almost be like her father. But also like that stuff, I just love the conversations of like my father, like her thinking about Vader as her father. It's interesting. Whereas like we still don't know anything about Anakin. It's just Return of the Jedi. That's it. Oh, I didn't even like... put that together. Like at the time we wouldn't have any Anakin story. I can't imagine reading this in 91. That makes it cooler. Honestly, like just thinking of her dad as Darth Vader and that's it.

Right, because I would only have ever read this with Phantom Men, like the whole sequel trilogy in my brain reading this book. Imagine not having that at all. Gosh. So good. I mean, they also never mentioned Sith in this book, right? It's always Dark Jedi, which I don't really ever feel like I hear anymore, Dark Jedi. Yeah. I think that's because that race was going to be called the Sith. Oh, really? And that's one of the changes Lucasfilm or someone had to make. And also, that race...

of aliens, their face is what Vader's mask is molded after. So there's like a shape to their face of what Vader's front of his face would look like. Also, something that was thrown out was that race of creature would, as it aged, their skin would go from pale to dark. And that was thrown out because of racial insensitivity. Oh my God. As a creature got more evil and assassin, their skin would be turning black. That had to be thrown out. Dang. But yeah, anyway.

I think that's what it was. That race was meant to be called the Sith, but that got thrown out, and I don't really remember exactly why. Yeah, I honestly tried to remember in the movies. I was like, did they ever say Sith? Yeah, I was thinking that too. I don't think they say it in the original trilogy. I know, that's why I couldn't remember. There's just been so much stuff since then. I was like, surely they said Sith in Return of the Jedi. I was like, I don't know.

Yeah. And yeah, that's why I thought like, oh, well, maybe that's why Zahn calls him a dark Jedi, because there is no other term yet for. what he's called. But that just seems crazy that the word Sith doesn't exist. I just did. Hold on. Can we get some answers on this? The word Sith is never actually said in the original Star Wars trilogy. Wow. Between four and six.

Lord Vader, the Dark Lord, servant of the Empire, this term Sith doesn't appear in the dialogue and credits or even the opening crawls. Damn. So what was the first... George Lucas has conceived Vader as the Dark Lotus Sith in his early story. And behind the scenes material, but it was never actually included in the film. The first appeared publicly in the 1976 novelization of New Hope. Whoa. According to Alan Dean Foster.

Where he says, Darth Vader, a dark lord of the Sith, became more prominent in the material during the prequel trilogy in The Phantom Menace. The Sith are finally named in dialogue. Well, that actually- The prequel trilogy. That makes sense because if he's the Dark Lord of the Sith and then this alien race comes in, maybe they are the Sith and they're his Sith army. That's so bonkers.

Another factoid like that that I read on Wikipedia says, Heir to the Empire was the first Star Wars book to refer to the galactic capital as Coruscant. George Lucas later adopted this name for the Galactic Capital throughout the prequel trilogy. Right. Zahn invented Coruscant. That's crazy. I know. I know. It's wild because we have this story after the prequel trilogy in our brains where everything is already laid out. Hopefully Zahn got paid. I think he continues to get paid.

I think he's doing just fine. Imagine his royalty checks that he gets. I mean, he created Thrawn. I don't know. He's still prominently used. What did you think of Sabaoth? the Jedi, the dark Jedi clone who feels like a combination of Ben Kenobi and Yoda because those are the only other two Jedi that existed outside of... Darth Vader. He's just like a frazzled old man with a white beard. How about Thrawn deducing that he's a clone?

Almost instantly. He's like, I have a memory of killing Sabah. So there's only one possible answer. He's a clone. And I love that there's no other possible alternatives. to him being a clone. He even mentions like his pronunciation of his first name or something as like a clue that he's a clone. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's like a double U or O or something. Yeah. But it also like, this is the first time I sat to think about it that like, why would a clone get?

force powers? Or like, how would a clone be able to connect with a force? It was more of like a deeper thinking question that I was like. Save it for the Rise of Skywalker. Well, you see, the Medichlorians. The Metachlorian. Holy shit. What did you think of Sabaoth, Proto?

Oh, man, I loved him. Like his first appearance, the description. And I think this is like the strength. One of the Zahn's strengths is like some of these scenes, these confrontations are so good. There's one in the second book that. Oh, my God. It's like one of my favorite things I've read. It felt like a scene from an anime. Oh, my God. But this, like them going to Wayland. Star Wars Visions, Heir to the Empire.

Oh, I mean, my God, please, somebody, someone take up the mantle. But yeah, like this confrontation with him. You know, I mean, even though you put those two words together, dark Jedi, and then he's a clone and he's insane. It's just like all this stuff that you love that I just I was just eating it up. Like the idea. And I mean, these are things like.

You know, as a Star Wars nerd, you just think about like, well, could there be anybody who's not a Jedi and not a Sith and is somewhere in between and they're kind of like a gray area? And that's literally what this character is, right? I mean, because he's a clone and he's mad. But just like the way and then like the cat and mouse game that Thrawn plays with him for power is like really fascinating. Like that ongoing feud. It's almost like.

I don't know. I guess there really isn't that dynamic with anyone with the emperor or with Vader. I mean, maybe like the, a grand admiral with like Vader. There's like this between the, like the forces and, and this, you know, him. But I, I. I love this character. I think he's so cool. I think his whole kind of stance as this, as someone who he truly believes he's the galaxy savior, he...

constantly talks about peace and order and justice, claims he wants to guide the galaxy, protect it, even raise up a new Jedi. But when... But what he only really wants is control. He doesn't train others to be independent thinkers. He doesn't want anyone to obey them. Even when it comes to Luke and Leia and her unborn twins, he doesn't see them as individuals, but like tools.

I don't know. It's just Zahn's ability to create these new characters in Star Wars and flesh them out into these super depth character studies. I feel like. I mean, I hope Zahn is as rich as Lucas at this point because it's incredible stuff. And maybe that's why he's not used as much because, I don't know, holding him back. He doesn't want to be, I don't know, the savior of Star Wars.

I don't know. There's stuff I wrote down like he believes he's doing the right thing. He thinks freedom is chaos. And he's the only one wise enough to bring peace. And I think that's just kind of how he is. I don't know. I love this character. I would love to see a live action version of him somewhere. And it's also cool, like, because at the time, he's the only other Jedi to ever exist.

besides the ones in the movies, which is like, what, three characters, four characters? Like, this is the first new Jedi ever. outside of the original trilogy which is pretty bonkers that this guy was like first in line none existed otherwise i was thinking about this on my dog walk this morning that's when i do most of my thinking yeah but like

So this, in theory, would be the first introduction of a clone in Star Wars universe. And they reference the Clone Wars in the original trilogy. So like... This idea of a clone of a Jedi existing is infinitely cooler of an idea when you compare it to like the Clone Wars, which at this point is not fleshed out. So like...

Maybe there's a world where people are excited, but like, whoa, the Clone Wars, what the hell happened in the Clone Wars? Were there clones of more Jedi fighting against regular Jedi? Were there these insane clones that the Republic had to do battle against? So, like, the idea of the Clone Wars is now, at this moment in time of 1991, pretty badass in my mind. Like, okay, let's get more of this. And then when you, like, look back now, the Clone Wars.

Like why would they even call the Clone Wars if like the army was like, it's like compared to like what my idea of a Clone Wars could be to what we got is like, man, that sucked. Like where's more of this? Where's the Sabayas of the world doing battle with like. Republic Jedi or something. Yeah. I mean, in a way, Sabaoth is like the dark mirror of what a Jedi can become when like ego replaces humility.

um like he wants the absolute uh kind of rule and i don't i i i would love to just have seen more cloned jedi stuff like that's that's the like peak Star Wars for me would be just to clone Jedis. How about even being cloned? I want to learn so much more. Who's doing the cloning? It does make perfect sense that there would be a clone of Palpatine. To be honest, it feels like a natural progression in the comic book. Right, that he was doing, yeah. I mean, even Seba's nature as a clone...

Kind of reinforces the idea like he didn't earn his wisdom. He inherited the power or the perspective or discipline to even use the responsibility of a Jedi. And that's what kind of make him more dangerous because nothing. He just. became a clone of a Jedi. He didn't do what it took to become a Jedi. Right. So that's like the chaos of him. Yeah. And like they, yeah, he doesn't like, he's not aware of it. He doesn't know.

And you would think, wouldn't a Jedi clone know that he's a clone? Wouldn't you be able to look back and search your own memory to be aware of that? We're getting deep here. In this book, do they mention the outbound flight? I can't remember. Okay. Yeah. So like that's mentioned, which is also like another amazing idea that the Republic is going to send some Jedi to like the edge of the galaxy looking to see if there's anyone else out there. And like supposedly like.

Joris is like one of those Jedi. Like that's such like another rad idea. Isn't that revealed to be like Thrawn just destroyed a ship of Jedi? And like that's like... the remainder of the Jedi forces in this book, right? Well, apparently Zahn wrote a book in 2006 about it called Outbound Flight, which now it's like, I gotta read this book. Yeah, it just feels so weird that like now...

That Thrawn could wipe out 90% of the Jedi just by destroying a ship. And like all those Jedis are dead. Jedi are dead. I had some other thought, but it escaped me. Something about Juras. Something, something, all your eggs in one basket. Yeah, maybe. Well, it wants me to give props more to the Islamari because what book do you have if Sabaoth is just walking around all powerful? He'll just cut Thrawn down instantly and just take the ship.

Like there's almost like no drama to be had without these creatures. Danny, anything else? God, we went through so much. Han and Leia, we didn't even talk about Han. I mean, Han's in this book too. Han and Leia just traveling to different worlds to build political alliances and uncover Thrawn's threat strategy. I think it's crazy. Mount Tantis. Give me a whole Mount Tantis story. Just how they were building the storehouse on Wayland. All that cloning facilities. The rare tech. All of that stuff.

injected into my veins. Didn't he have like a nickname before they knew it was like a dark Jedi who was like guarding Mount Tantis? Wasn't there, I want to say like Gladiator or something. Oh, maybe it was Guardian. They call him Guardian. Oh, yeah. Yeah, because then Joris says he killed the Guardian. Oh, he killed the Guardian. Yeah. I loved...

I love them getting the cloaking device from that storehouse. And the fact that the cloaking device doesn't cloak a ship, but it hides what's inside the ship. That is such a cool idea. I love that. You were mentioning Han. I think of all the characters in the book, the dialogue is that he nails the Han dialogue so well to the point like as I'm reading it.

I felt like I could see all the characters, but I could see Harrison Ford saying all of these lines. Like, I mean, a lot of them are like ripped from the movies. which is fun. Like it just, it kind of works, but also it just, it feels like exactly what they would say. And the fact that he. could do that for Luke, Leia, Han, Lando. It just feels like an extension of the movie so well and of the characters. Yeah. Any more honorable mentions, Danny?

I mean, I'm ready for you to read the next two books so we can talk more about Mara. I mean, when Proto was like dropping spoiler comments in a paper cake discord, I was like, God, I need to...

finish book one first. I know. And I'm pretty happy with how fast I finished book one. Like, I don't usually finish books at such a clip, but I guess that's what happens when you drive a bunch. I mean, how about the whole... card scene at his HQ where they kidnap Luke and Mara has him locked up, but then Han and Lando come to their HQ and then Thrawn shows up.

That is such a cool part of the story where he's like managing three different parties, trying for his like smuggling empire to not just like completely crumble in front of him. And I mean, he doesn't really, I mean, it's still like an impossible. thing for him to deal with. It was so cool. Let me see if I have any more minchies. 3PO being called Prissy maybe five times in this book. I was cracking up. It's a lot. He's called Prissy a lot in the book.

It was just so funny. Do you guys think that... Sorry, go ahead. Finish your thoughts on C-3PO. No, I was just going to... What a strange sentence. No, I was just going to say, I mean, the voice acting in 3PO was great, too. Oh, yeah, he nails it. I was thinking about The Heir to the Empire and how well-received this was by Star Wars nerds. And I wonder if...

Ego plays into it with George and others at the helm of Lucasfilm and or Filoni now to where someone else's writing would translate so well into. other forms of media that they won't maybe allow it unless it's theirs? Is that track of my thinking? Like, it's like, why wouldn't they just grab Zon? And be like, hey, let's flesh out a script to your Heir to the Empire that works for a D-plus series or a new set of trilogy. But everything has to be like...

Let's have Filoni write his heir to the Empire, or let's throw Thrawn in this rebel story instead of actually telling Thrawn's story that exists. Like, these exist, and this can be worked so well, I think. I mean, it's legends, but it also, this stuff, I still can feel like can be canon if worked correctly and said that what we have now still. Yeah. It just kind of, it feels like there's like so much ego in all this.

Just grab Timothy. He's not doing much. I wonder what the legal implications are, too. Like, do they... worry about bringing the story in. How much does Disney have to pay you? I don't think they have the balls to recast the lead characters. They don't have the balls to do anything. They would rather deep fake people's faces and de-age.

all day long, instead of just casting Sebastian Stan to play Luke Skywalker, or any other actress to play Leia, our brains are smart enough to disconnect from other things, as long as you have good writing and good performances. Remember Shadow of the Empire, that book? Yeah, yeah. I completely forgot about that until now. 1996, I think. I started watching a Shadow of the Empire fan-made documentary on YouTube.

Because it was like a video game. It was a book. It was comic books. And you had that new character. Dash Rendar. Remember him? I need the Ryan Gosling movie to be him playing Dash Rendar. That's what I want. I mean, him and the Outrider. Steve Perry? Did Shadow Empire? Yeah, Steve Perry wrote the book. The Steve Perry. The singer himself. Master of many talents.

I don't think I have any other notes. I actually didn't write anything down while I was reading it, so I had to kind of think back. We know how your brain is. Hockey brain. Hockey brain. Proto, anything else? I love there's a lot of terms that are used in this that I'd never heard before that I feel like really helped to ground the story and like add realism or like explanation to how the world works.

Like the repulsor lifts, the sublight drive, how he talks about the hyper drives. I love that. I also love the explanation that like. There's no other astromech that can use Luke's X-Wing because R2 has intertwined with it personality-wise. That's so cool. He needs R2 to even use his ship. How about his hyperdrive breaking?

Card didn't, and Mara find him, he probably would have died in space. Oh, yeah. Him going into like, him going into like a Jedi coma to survive. Yeah. Like his mother. Or like a sister. Yeah. There's also like the ship. I don't know if this is like referenced before, but the interdictor cruisers that like force other ships out of light speed, which is such a cool idea. I don't think those are ever used again, actually.

what about the ship that like blocks the power of that sun so like they can enter the planet oh yeah and then without them doing the slave what do they call the slave connection to the ship's hyperdrive it would take like nine hours to get to the planet oh my god insane

That's cool stuff. That is super cool. That's big brand sci-fi. It is, yeah. Yeah, I think that's pretty much it for me. Oh, I had one other note that Thrawn... I like how Thrawn is like only he's only thwarted almost because of like luck and just like the ingenuity of the like the gang. You know, like the whole sleuth van thing, like he plans it perfectly. No one saw it coming, executes it perfectly. But like the only downside is that Lando happens to be there and.

him and Han come up with a way to like what he was doing so it's like like Thrawn is doing everything right but it's like those damn rebels are keep screwing it up so I love that Star rating, Danny? Five. Easy five. Proto? I'll give it five stars for a book. Why not? They should make a website that lets you rate books and lets you log books. Like Letterboxd. I'll give it five stars too. This episode is sponsored by Goodreads.

What? What is that? So hopefully folks had fun going back down memory lane. Maybe you supported your local library. Support them. Support them, please. They need our support. In this nation right now, libraries need our support now more than ever. That's true. And that's it. That's Star Wars The Empire. Can't wait to see Danny's art. Me too. Really excited.

And thanks, Proto, for starting to read this and getting the ball rolling on us to also read it. Oh, it's a delight to read these. And I know a bunch of people in our community are reading it now. What a great time. Yeah, Art referenced, I can't wait to talk about this in live chat. Yeah, Art. Sorry, Art. Art, you are with us in spirit. Thanks to everyone for listening. We'll see you next time. 70 millimeter is a tape deck production featuring original artwork provided by Danny Haas.

Spiritual Guidance and V'ger, the robot who loves movies, provided by Pertalexis. Producer at large, Dale underscore A. And music composed by Cinematric. Prints and other merch are available on 70mmpod.com. This episode was mixed, edited, and produced by me, Slim. Support our Patreon for access to our VHS Village Discord to talk movies.

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