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So the news breaking not long ago that the City of Cincinnati is paying a local law firm, Frost Brown Todd forty k to investigate police Terry Thigi's performance after they fired her. Normally, you investigate the performance. Go okay, they got to go. This is completely backwards, and they expect the law firm to be finished by the end of the year. So it's going to cost us forty grand and the city is still shelling out the full salary and benefits to Terry Thiji of in excess of
two hundred thousand dollars. Because of this nonsense, she hired her own employment lawyer, Stephen m and he has no intention of allowing her to resign because she said there's nothing negative thirty five years on the job to the date when she was moved. Thirty five years, nothing significant, nothing minor. In her jacket, pretty exemplary thirty five year
law career that she's had, so why now. And also there's some developing news overnight regarding the scope of the investigation what the law firm is going to look for.
Specifically.
Joining the show is attorney Jason Philibaum, who's been around the block a few times. Jason, welcome, how are you.
Good morning? Thank you doing well?
Yeah, this whole thing right away, it just just screams like wrongful dismissal in a sense, because before we get into the intricacies of at Jason phillibm I look at this and go, Okay, I've been on the job for thirty five years, and on my thirty fifth anniversary, I get noticed that I'm now on paid administratively, if I'm in Denver, Colorado, I get summoned back from this conference to Cincinnati because I'm probably gonna get fired. And she
wasn't technically fired. She's on paid leave, and it wasn't because of something happened. I mean the Fountain Square issue. It happened days a couple of days after she left for Denver, so nothing new was going on here. And then furthermore, they come in and go, Okay, we're going to put you on leave. We're going to name an interim chief. By the way, not a temporary position, but
interim generally means between the past into the future. If it was someone let's say that God forbid she were sick, there would be someone temporarily there, right, So that would be someone who is not an interim chief. There'd be another adjunctive for that, it'd be acting chief. And so they even chose the words incorrectly here. If you're not fired, she's not fired, then why I have an interim chief? Does that not help the legal case against the city from Terry Thiji, Yeah, I think so.
I think this looks like a witch hut. It reminds me of this guy that had one hundred arrows in the side of his barn and he would ask how he did it, and he said, it was easy. I shoot an arrow into the side of the barn, and then I go ahead and paint the bull's eye around it. And you know what I think you have here is you have a situation where you know they want her gone.
I mean that's clear. And instead of just terminating her and worrying about whether they have to pay out a contract or not, they then hire a law firm, you know, approximately one hundred to one hundred and twenty hours of work to essentially investigate her. And you know, I can tell you, you know, being around the block. As you say, you know, if you start investigating someone that has thirty five years of experience, you know, you may not find
something illegal. But I'm pretty sure you're going to find some policy that's been broken that everybody breaks, and then that's going to be their linch pin. But it sounds to me like there's some issues in Cincinnati and they're using her as escapegoat.
Well, it's not easy to dismissible gig.
Well, we investigated and we found this in your jacket, which should be you know, essentially it's already something that's known but didn't rise the level of termination. As matter of fact, the argument from Steve and m would be, well, not only did you know this because it's part of you also promoted her in rank to the chief of police, so you're complicit in this whole thing. You're fining her for something you had no problem that she did at the time.
You can't that's you do that. I mean that that's going to cost the money, isn't it.
Yeah, and that's the that's the process I think they're they're going down here that I'm not sure is going to be wise what they're trying to do. I mean, they want or gone. Like you said, they even use the word interim, so she's gone, she's not going to resign, and so they're going to want a terminator. Now in Ohio, we're in at will state, so you can terminate someone as long as it's not based on some you know, illegal reason, race, gender, national origin, et cetera. But she
is probably under a contract. So if that's the case, then they can only terminate her from that contract for just cause there's got to be a good reason why. And it could be policy, you know, some type of policy being broken. Obviously, it could be something illegal, or it could just be mismanagement of the you know, the city. So those are things that they're going to be looking for. And you know, the the issue with that too is, you know, we do know that crime is up, and
we know that violent crime is up. But her Herney said the other day that she's offered to sit down with the mayor and the judges to talk about, you know, these these bonds that are being given because that could be one situation that why crime is up is essentially if someone gets arrested for a violent crime and is back out on the street, you know, a few days later, you know crime is not going to go away, and and it looks like, you know, an election year, you're
now having a situation where the that's let's get rid of the police chief, and that's why there's all these problems going on in Cincinnati instead of may be you know, leadership.
I don't think you have to be a political analysis supple political mind like a like a Willie Conningham, James Carvill or something that right where they for the regular voter, for the rank and file or the typical constituent, they see this, they see right through it. I think every man and woman who doesn't have a jurisd doctorate is not educated in law like like you are. Jason Phillibaum. I mean I look at him and go, they're doing a dirty.
Yeah, And I think that's what a lot of people are thinking. Now. You know, play Devil's Advocate for a second. You know, crime is up. We talked about that. Is there something she should have been doing that she's not?
I mean, is she not, you know, putting the police in the right position, or her subordinates telling her that, you know, you should you should put police here, you should maybe do some kind of burst here, and then she just decides she's not doing that, and as a result, you have this issue on Fountain Square, you have these other issues. Now that might be a legitimate thing. I mean,
and maybe that's something we don't know. Again just playing Devil's advocate, But even if you look at what her attorney said, is the FOP I think is backing her. So I would think that if her subordinates were telling her to do things and she was just flat out ignoring them, I'm not sure that they would have that backing that she has now.
He is attorney Jason Phillibaum, the very latest involving Terry Terry Thigi. Now we're hiring a law from a local law from Frost Brown Time, pretty good firm that they're going to do some deep diving and try and find out the reasons why they fired her before. Yeah, as you said, you know, this is shoot first, asked questions later. I guess the Inquirer came out with this this morning.
The scope of the investigation This is what the lawyers, the team for the city outside council is going to investigate. And now are there are four prongs to this thing. Is she an effective leader and manager of the department, including personnel and resources? Is she a leader within the context of city government, meaning does she further the broader goals and objectives of the administration. Has she committed any
infraction or positive evolution while serving as police chief? And did she disregard best practices in the running a CPD to the detriment of detriment of public safety and crime prevention. Well, let's start with the first one. Is she an effective leader and manager of the department including personnel and resources.
That seems like an open ended question, like if there were problems with her management personnel that the previous chief notoriously had issues with that when I guess before Craig notoriosly I had problems with that too and it was public so but believing or heard of that at chiuth Tiji, you know, the rank and file were really split on it, really didn't care for her all that much. But once they did what they did to her, they realized they
could come next. And now everyone, even her detractors are supporters, so they rallied them. So to look at this and say, is she an effective leader or manager? You can say that of any boss, can't you?
Right? Exactly? And I call that fuzzy math. You know, that's the law school exam where it depends on who's paying me. That's the answer I give you. Know you're paying me on this one side, I tell you why she's an effective leader. If you're paying me on the other side, I'll give you all the reasons why she's not.
I mean that's again, I don't think that's what this is going to fall down on, because again, like you said that, it's so vague, it's so fuzzy that you know, if they want to decide that she's not a good leader, they're gonna they're going to find reasons to justify that, just like if you want to find that she's a good leader, you'd find the reason. And so you know the first two that you mentioned, those prongs that those both are very fuzzy math, fuzzy sort of law school
exams where anyone can answer anything. I think the crux is going to be number three, which is is there an infraction? You know, is there something that she did that she not follow a policy. I don't think there's any allegation of criminal wrongdoing, So it's going to be something something you know, so minor that and that's where she's going to then get into court and say, look, other people have done, you know, other people forgot to call in on day that they were taking off and
they were allowed to stay. But I'm getting fired things like that. And then of course number four, I mean, that's that's I think the one that's a little bit more serious. You know, there's a problem in Cincinnati with crime. Whose fault is it? Is it the mayor's is it the judges? Is it the police chief? You know? Is it society? I mean, what's the problem? And I think it'd be interesting to see if there's something that she should be doing or something like you said, best practices
that she didn't do. That would be the one that would you know, sell me yes or no, as opposed to the other three prongs that you know, they can find out of anybody. Well.
Jason Philibel, Attorney at law, relative to the four pillars of this investigation by outside Council for the City of Cincinnati to towards Terry Thiji. You mentioned number three as she's committed any infraction policy violation while serving as a police chief. If she had, and it rose to the level of an impeachable offense, wouldn't we have heard that? I mean, typically, you know, when someone commits a crime. Let's look at what happened with the NBA recently. What
happened was Cashptel. The FBI held a press conff. They had the evidence, they made the charge that Okay, here's we're coming at these individuals. We're going after Chauncey Belips, are going after other individuals because this is the evidence.
We have in this case.
They're going, well, it'd be like them going, yeah, well we're suspending Chauncey Bellops and now we're going to do
an investigation to find out what he did wrong. That's the problem with this is that if you in any other case, with due process, and I think it applies here to a degree, then if you committed an infraction, you make those charges allegations, you suspend them all, you investigate the scope and the depth, and then eventually you terminate that person because now you've gathered the evidence.
This is completely the opposite.
Of that right. And that's why I think a lot of people look at this and say that's not fair. You know, you don't arrest somebody and say, go find me a crime. The crimes committed, then you arrest them, and then you either investigate further or prove or disprove that it happened. What's not fair is to essentially take someone out of a position and look for something that
they did wrong. And you know, I would think, you know, if they did something wrong, you wouldn't have the city manager talking about what a great thirty five years and what a great person this is and we wish you the best. I think I think that was the statement when they put her on leave, is you know, what a great stellar career. If there's truly an infraction worthy of dismissal, that's not the statement you put out there.
So that tells me they probably don't know if there's one, and they're now looking for one so they can hang their hat on it. Yeah.
Yeah, our tires at nineteen ninety eight, we're touching a handicapped spot. Accidentally, she didn't close the cover before striking. When she was trying to light a candle. Some matches and she tore the mattress tag off of her ceiling. Those don't rise to levels the reason you get fired because everyone does that.
Right exactly exactly, and that's what they're that's what they're looking for now again so they can find it for cause. Now I think again the legitimate, legitimate investigation would be number four. But again that's not something that I would do post termination or in this case just suspension. Is what is she doing wrong? Why is the city? You know, and maybe maybe that's a good investigation, you know, find
tell me why Cincinnati crime is going up? And see if we but to sit there and take the police chief out and then do that investigation. That seems again putting a little bit of the cart before the horse.
Well it seems like, you know, they're turning under a stone, the stone over. But when they kicked the stone, a lot of things are going to run. I wonder how much of those those bugs come back to bite after a pureval Because two and four of this four pillar investigation by Brown Frost Todd is she too? Is is she a leader within the context of city government, meaning furthering the broader goals and objects of the city administration. Number four is did she regard best practices in the
running of CPD. I don't know if that's just best practices by police standards and no pot of standards or best practices is set forth by number two the administration. Because that's the sticky part is when she interviewed for this job three years ago, Jason Philamama was looking at some of the interviews she did. She said her biggest priority was to continued diversity, equity and inclusion within the
Cincinnati Police Department, how to lift people up. And she also had to get the blessing and interview essentially with Iris Rawley, who we've seen in recent time investigated and get herself involved between a suspect a subject who was being arrested for violating probation and was essentially interfering with the business of a police officer. She had an interview with her to get this job in the first place.
So when I hear that and then see what's happened with owner cognisance people cutting their ankle monitor off and there's no repercussion from the court for that essentially doing what they say they weren't going to do. Literally within minutes of leaving, the people who have been jammed up and all this high profile violence saved. Maybe the brawl, there's other factors in there, and now that was handled as a nightmare. That wasn't on the chief, but everything
else was. Like people who had violent prior criminal offenses that were precluded from having a gun because they're under disability by law. It's not her to set those policies. That's on the mayor. So they're doing this investigation. I wonder how much of this is going to come back and implicate after that peer volunteer.
Long, Yeah, I agree, And if you look at I think the mayor put out a statement. He put out a statement that he had nothing to do with his firing. Again, I find that to be maybe a little disingenuous, because why in the world with a city manager three weeks before an election terminate your female police jeep without talking to the mayor. That would be a very dumb move. So I would think that there was a discussion ahead of time. But like you said, there's a lot of
factors to consider. You know, is she pushing DEI and that's why there's not enough police on the street. Maybe that's a legitimate decision to you know, talk about whether that's the appropriate way to handle policing. You know, but recently the city also engaged in a federal settlement where
they are changing the way they're policing. I mean, that's that could be a very real reason for why things are going up, you know, having bonds, Like you said, someone that commits a violent crime and has let out the next day that that's the that's not the police an issue. That's not on her exactly.
I could see when she's falsifying reports and people aren't showing up, and she's backdating payroll. I mean, those are the things you're definitely going to get you and you should get you fired. But essentially the vision by this administration is criminals are victims too, has led us to this point. That's not on Terry Thiji. That's on the people who hire Terry Thiji.
Exactly. As I said at the beginning of this talk, it sounds to me like a skapegoat. It sounds to me like, you know, we're two weeks out from an election and I've got to tell the people that there's
a problem, and I fixed the problem. And now by the way, that's hired these really good attorneys to go in there and find out what the problem was, and then I can match it up and say, hey did a good job, which of course won't come out until after the election anyway, It's going to take two three months to do a thorough investigation whether it's legitimate or whether it's brought up after the facts, So I don't think we're going to know anything. You'll probably januinely after the election.
Of course, that's what this is about, buying some time for the election, but it really doesn't because it makes them looking competent and stupid, and not the first time either.
I would also add this finally, Jason Philibauma attorney at law, if you're representing, if you're on team Fiji, are your eyes now glazing over with the millions and million dollars should possibly be getting it because quite honestly, the way this whole thing was executed, it's seemingly, in addition to the two hundred K she's making, could wind up getting a help of payout to sign a non disclosure agreement because if she doesn't sign an NDA, theyn't force an NDAU,
then then she can roll over on this administration and really let the go seut and they don't want that.
Yeah, yes, her attorney's firm is well known for suing cities and municipalities and going after them, and then you know, that's an a lot of expensive lawsuits and if they if they end up getting, you know, something that they can hang their hat on, then you've got attorney fees in play. And that's a pretty penny that the Cincinnati
have to pay out. So yeah, there's there's My guess is there's going to be a settlement some way through the process, because otherwise it's going to be expensive for somebody.
If the finny law firm or like the Bengals defense, we wouldn't be having conversations about not making the playoffs and firing coaches, if you know what I mean, because they are tenacious. If anything, he is attorney Jason Phillibaum a private practice of course, attorney himself, just kind of a different view, a different set of eyes on this issue right now because it doesn't pass my sniff test,
and it certainly doesn't pass Jason's either. Jason all the best, buddy, thanks for jumping on this morning.
I appreciate it. Thank you Over at.
Jonas and Philibaum, Thanks again, quick time out, we'll get a news update and the controversy that they wish we're kind of I hate when, like, we've got enough controversy in the world. What is controversial about what's happening at the White House relative to the East Wing? Because it feels like people are pushing this narrative like we should be all worked up into a froth about this, and I just maybe it's just me. I don't see it, and I'll tell you why next seven hundred WLW