You don't want to be an American idio Scott Coo here seven hundred WLW. Will there finally be peace? Peace in our lifetime? There's a potential to end the two year war between Israel Hamas Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he's going to convene the Israeli government. He's doing that today as we speak, to ratify the Seasfire agreement. And President Trump may travel at Egypt as soon as this weekend, and that's where the talks are being held. To put
in perspective. As doctor Mark Nzilaco, he's a UTI political scientist, also a Middle Eastern expert, former director International Studies Program and founder of u d's Human Rights Studies Program. Mark, how you been?
I'm fine? How are you?
I'm fine. I think peace in the world is a good thing. I think when you see the people being ravaged, not only from what happened two years ago in twenty twenty three, to normal Israelis living their lives, to the bombing and Susan bombing of those in Gosam, any of those people not really other than the fact that they're chatteled in this whole mixed up conflict illustrates the absurdity and just how cruel we are to other human beings, and maybe we'll finally get piece piece at last. And
the question is will that piece last? Because I'm also well, I think the glass may be half full here. I think that there's some problems. We'll get into that. So let's talk about the deal real quick. Let me outline it in case you're not following this or just hearing it for the first time. Hamas has agreed to release all their remarrining hostages Israel. We will draw withdraw their forces back to what they call the agreed upon Yellow line.
And this is just the first phase of the peace agreement. So it's going to be the hostages and then Palestinian prisoners get released, and then once that's finalized and within forty eight hours, all this is going to end. But there are some bombs going off today as a matter of fact. So first and foremost is this is phase one and that seems to be the easy phase Phase two and beyond that's probably the more difficult. Can you lay that out?
Oh well, I mean, there's a twenty point plan. It was agreed to a week or so ago. We're elaborate, very very elaborate very detail. Well, and the phase where now is really was water two widems, you know, and the key is really getting Hamas to lay it down its weapons and uh, for Hamas to have no future, uh in any Palestinian administration that runs that that land. And that's that's a long that's a long stretch. That's
that's when you've laid the foundations for genuine peace. The smoke hasn't cleared yet from a two year and very as you say, very very bloody, very very violent war. I mean destruction on almost unimaginable levels. So I mean just psychologically and emotionally. How do people who are already each other's throats, how do they recover from this? How
they move forward? Uh? You know, gritter things maybe haven't been done, but maybe the violence was precisely so bad that everyone finally wakes up and realizes that we have to find a means to coexist and live together. So I'll hope that's the goal.
Yeah, you hope so too. You just wonder how long it's going to last. And I kind of mentioned that in my preamble there. As you know, you're the professor in this conversation. You're you're the student of this more than I am. I can't count how many deals we've had in the past when it comes to different accords and the like. And that's not just Hummas, but generally
peace between Palestine in Israel itself. I mean the also Accords back in the nineties, you had Camp David in two thousand, You've had summits and roadmaps for peace in the Annapolis Conference and Trump's peace plan from five years ago, and none of them went anywhere. Why is this the one?
Yeah, you're exactly right. I mean, if those couldn't take hold in a much more favorable environment of peace than now, because, as I said, a moment ago, to the destruction, level of destruction is so great, it's not even mistrust anymore, has deep, deep hated hatred. Uh So, one could only hope that the violence was so immense that it shocked everybody into into a mind a mindset for a peace. But no, at this stage, we're looking what hostage you're
coming back? I mean, it's really intelligence is assessin that Hamas may even be able to return all the dead hostages because obviously because the yeah, so will we be released, which prisoners will be released what will stay? You know. Still, the big piece is does Hamas retain any any power now both within Gaza, among Palestinians and certainly vis A vis uh is real who's not going to stop hunting Hahas? You know Israeli? So you're not going to stop hunting
Hamas because they meet it. They they reached an agreement sharmol shake Egypt. So I mean the roots through violence are so deep that. Yeah. So it's work as how as we can, as the UN says, get the housages out and get the aid in. Uh, but be realistic about uh, be realistic about the prospects for long long term piece.
Yeah. Yeah, I just don't imagine Hamas is going to go away. Quiet, That's the thing is. And there's a couple of points in here too, is Hamas is going to lay down their arms and simply guy, I just don't see this as kind of like the American Revolutionary War that all these combatants lay down their arms and go back to being gentlemen farmers.
Yeah, yes, I don't see that at all. Uh, you know, I mean, you know there was back in the day, but as accords, when you know elements at PLO fought that were coming and they had a terrorist background and they made a transition from that. But this Hamas is a different like his bulla a different beast. Here's the point though, Gaza is is rubble and and it really needs to be rebuilt UH. And then I should communities on this before poort and billions and billions of dollars. Now,
what happened before was Hamas hijacked, that process hijacked. They were able to divert those nieces to missiles and tunnels and bombs and uniforms, all those all the belligerency material
for war. So in the administration of this piece, if we move forward on this twenty point plan, there's the opportunity and there's really the imperative that the global community monitor their expendors, really control that process so that by by by administering Gaza UH really marginalizing Hamas there so Hamas will be could be at war UH with the self. Tell us to the ends up war with themselves. If Hamas is to retain is going to try to retain some influence.
And that's the billion dollar question, man, how do you prevent that from happening? Because two things off the top of my head, Mark Ensilaka would be human nature, because you know the nature of of having control as power and power as to come, and fear as part of that is the currency of power. And so hey, how many regimes have we seen in the history of the world where someone's taken over and organization has taken over and it's become a total power grab. And again it's
the has and have nots. We take everything, we arm up, we scare the hell out of the people, and we keep them in line, whether it's this or pole pot or anybody else. And then the other thing is just out and out graft. Yeah, okay, we're going to have what the un oversee this? Yeah, good luck with that.
Huh. Yeah. You know, there's an old expression in diplomacy that the devil lives in the details. It's easy to sort of reach. It's not easy, but it's possible to reach broad twenty point goals and have some sort of pacific vision of the future. But it's in the implement patient as you say, how many tons of food are going to go in per day? Really, how are you
going to reconstruct the destroyed sanitation systems? I mean, really, there is an opportunity out for Gaza's for palest Indians in the new administration to build, not just rebuild Gaza, but build a new society there. And they're going to have to do it because it's literally rubble and it's literally great loss of life, great disruption. But there's going to be a you know, there's going to be an
international relief effort. I hope we're part of that and we don't have to take it over, and that would be the number one could contribute a bit. We'll be involved clearly. The twenty point Plan, as I understand it, sees a key role for a peace commission chaired by the President of the United States. So we're engaged. We're engaged very clearly, but it's in the details. Let's get it right, let's do it right.
But the problem is the other part of the problem to us, we've seen in Afghanistan and backwards, is that we pay attention. Because we're Americans, We've got the attention span of a gnat, and we'll pay attention into what's happening. Once everything signed in the press, opportunities over, we'll move on to the next shiny object, uh, and then things will fall apart in the Middle East, and we'll wonder what happened. Is that a possibility?
Uh yeah, I mean certainly one would in his in the Maga world. Is this is a step of involvement in other countries wars That exactly what he promised to avoid. I mean, how how will his his loyalists, his most loyal supporters, how do they see? Uh, this Nobel Price comes out tomorrow, It's gonna be fascinating. Uh, fascinating.
That's how I want to get it done right now, because he wants he wants he wants a Nobel prize.
My guess is that the votes already end. Uh it would be interesting though, Uh you know, the name should maybe bows around at Jerry Kushner. I mean he's working behind the scenes for a long time. I'm not I'm not nominating him by any means, but uh, there are there is a there was a there has been a great deal of behind the scenes fashion in the Arab world, and it's gonna be fascinating to see with the passage
of time what we learned about that process. History books are going to be fascinating, but those period time.
Yeah, he's doctor Mark Nsoloco at the University of Dat and political science professor there talking about maybe finally peace in the least between Israel and Hamas and regime change there and stopping the bombing, and it could happen relatively soon. The Prime Minister of Israel NET and Yahoo is convening the Israeli government today to vote on this to ratify the ceasefire agreement. The other side, any, I don't we don't want sae like a couple of bitter old men here.
But but you know, we've seen this movie before, not just in our lifetime, into previous lifetimes. And you are a student of history, your political science professor, and history is the best indicator future behavior. And so if we're a little jaded and pessimistic about this, it's for good reason.
It doesn't mean that this piece won't last. And hell, even if the piece lasts for six months, a year, two years, ten years, whatever it is, that's better than these two sides blowing each other up, taking hostages, killing, raping women, holding people hostage, and the other side bombing the hell out of civilians.
Yeah, that's you just laid out of Panorama. That's really frightening. I mean, yeah, I mean it's long term term. One thing you would be always sure of the Middle East that there's something will flare up, Yes, But at the same time, and I don't want to be too optimistic about things, but the strategically the Middle East has changed a great deal. I mean because of the violence. I mean, obviously Hamas has been close to being destroyed, but you know' his boiler and the attack on Iran with even the
United States getting involved attacking the nuclear sites. I mean, so you hit this arc of countries that were hostile to Israel An Israel sort of you know, took the fight to them, and that is weakened these organizations regionally and and strategically. Now I'm not simply saying, you know, what a wonderful new world, you know, post war World War two, uh uh, you know world, But yeah, there's been changes in the strategic environment, and maybe that could
be a basis. I mean, you look at these golf states, Goha and all these emirates, all these they're fabulously wealthy. They're fabulously wealthy societies. And although there's just an attachment of Palesitian cause that I coulds rather than protruci them, I mean there's a lot of people sort of want to get out into their lives and they'd probably rather talk to Jared Kushner about real you know, you know,
Mediterranean seafront real estate. Then the don't want to run around in a singing alo roc bar uh and and blowing things up, So there could be really environment. I always argue that when I wrote my first book about violence in the Middle East Fromplex September September eleventh, it's looking at a different war, uh, you know, against Alcada
in Afghanistan. I simply said, you know this will this will end when mothers tell their children suicide in the act of blowing someone up is not you know, jihad in a way of allah. You know when when you dead, attitude changes. And one could probably say and he is ready sit side too. Within the settler movement, the extreme sort of Zionist movements that are that have taken the vigilante law in their own hand. There's deep problems in
these societies that speak against a long lasting peace. But one can build on what was in front of us right now. Right now there's a lot of rebuilding of a lot of destruction, and and make the difficult initial steps in these peace press make these count.
Yeah, I think you kind of hit on it there. And the big question then to summarize what you're saying on Tlaco, is this only works if both sides wanted to work.
Yeah. Remember at ended a chapter in my book once where one of the leaders back in the day said, we don't want peace. Peace would end all our hopes. I mean, if that's the mentality you have, yeah, you got the you've got the permanent roots for for for future violence. But right now, clearly in the house to the inside is exhausted. I mean, it's really difficult to assess this because journalists have they not had access to little many have lost their lives in this conflict reporting
from Gaza. But you know, one beginning to hear uh reports or inklings that Pelsis have turned on Hamas and they're saying, you know, yes, here's what these did, this great distraction to us. But you provoke them, you know, you poke the bear. Uh And so you know, Hamas Tamas militants will walk around with scars, greens, cigars are on the head and and and the goose step. But in point of fact, there is a serious, serious defeat for them militarily and politically.
And all the multi phases are the twenty point program. We're just in the first couple right now. This is only phase one, So we're a long way away from lasting peace at this point, even a ceasfar, because bombs are going off this morning as a matter of fact. There as we moved to phase two in beyond, it was France, I believe, the first loft of the notion that Palestinian state whood should be a thing, and some other countries signed on to that and absolutely upset those
of us in the West. How dare you do this? They come in two years ago and look what they did, and now you want to give them statehood and forget everything else. But it sounds like part of this plan is eventually that's exactly what's going to happen. I mean, if Israel is pulling back to this yellow line, then they'll have a final determination where that is. That would then mean that some degree at Palestinian state right.
Well, you know, I thought, I thought France and Great Britain announcing this a few weeks ago was really sort of and forgive me for putting on such plant terms sort of you know, media just the media. Start, there is no palest in the estate. I mean, when you say to me, show me your state, the first thing I want to know is where are the boundaries? So and then who's your leadership Hamas? I mean, it's nothing
was going to come on this. Nonetheless, you know, and so I understand President Trump sort of trying to push back in our allies this tag back you were rewarding. You said, exactly, wait, Scott, you're rewarding Hamas by giving them this prize. But no, the fact, the long term
fact is there's going to happen in two states. So at some point you're going to so in the process of building, you know, when you when you really have to just make sanitation systems and water and deliver food and you know, just the rudiments of running and government really, you know, particularly recovering one right, you can build trust, you can see that people can work together, and that it has to be to go in building and rebuilding. I think we really have to lay the foundations to
build out for a long term, long term priest. But the global community, and that means the United States. What President Trump is the chairman of this this Peace Commission Order. It's called right, you said this right, the global communities have to stay engaged in that. Yeah. Yeah, and that means the United States too, Ye turn our back on it.
We turn our back on It's Afghanistan, it's Vietnam, it's all those things. And we just, you know, because the public we lose interest in and why are we supporting them? Why are we doing this? And it's it's gonna be I think, probably more low key than that. It's not like we have troops on the ground there, but in that regardless of this is something we're gonna have to stay on top of for a long time if you
want it to work. All right, I gotta get going, Doctor Mark anziloco ud I was appreciate the time in the in the good stuff. I feel like I'm sitting in one of your classes here. Thanks again for the time. I appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
Have a good one. Uh yeah, Whether it lasts or not, we're going to find out. Although history is certainly not on their side. But man, you look at the devastation, the destruction, the human casualties, the toll, it's seventy thousand plus people. I mean, that's a lot of people dying. And now it's over and hopefully you can go back to being that gentleman farmer. I don't know if a moss is gonna lay their arms down. I don't know if that's the thing, because there's always going to be
that streak. As soon as something goes sideways, they're gonna wind up game in more power. It's just the nature of the beast. Anyway, Quick time out News on the Way, Sloany on seven hundred WLW