A Mind for Murder

For anyone who knows Carmen, there's just a magic to her. She was going through this transition, ending her marriage. There was just no question that we were meant to spend the rest of our lives together. Hadn't heard from her that day. Um, left a couple of messages. Hey Darling, how you doing for me? And um really concerned and I uh sent a couple of messages for you and please give me a call just to just to let me know you're okay. Got panicky and just I knew something just wasn't right.

and finally called the um police.

There was quite a struggle. A heck of a fight had gone on in that room. Furniture was turned over, potted plants were knocked over, there was blood everywhere. The carpet was bloodstained everywhere. I think it was fairly clear to us that a murder had occurred. I knew from the time I had children that the worst thing that would ever happen, that could ever happen to me, would be to lose a child. And in this case, she was just ripped out of our life.

Somebody had to have a motive for this to happen. That had anything to gain. Tom, my ex son in law. An English professor. But he he couldn't do that. He doesn't have the I told Mr. Murray that his ex-wife Carmen had died and that we needed to speak to him about that. Not just a white place. But a convenient one. Why didn't you just arrest him then and there? We couldn't prove that he w had done it. If this scenario falls apart,

You're very well back to square one. We didn't have a lot of physical evidence. We never found any bloody clothing. We never found a murder weapon. We were gonna have a tough road ahead of us.

I began to think about all the things that I did wrong. I didn't spend enough time with her. I didn't call her often. The fact that someone took her life away, it was important to me that there would be some justice. This crime will be solved, I'll spend every damn penny I've tried. For murder. You don't meet many people in your life like my daughter. So caring about everybody and almost Danny and Judy Ross are never at a loss for words.

She's bubbly. She's fun to be around. She makes the room warm. She's the sunshine. Judy even put together a list of words that come to her mind when she thinks of Carmen. Brilliant. Empathetic. Thoughtful, spiritual, patient, political, loving, peaceful, delightful, silly, playful, courageous, full of life, daughter of our youth. And Carmen's nineteen eighty five wedding to her sweetheart Tom Murray.

was one of the best days Danny and Judy ever had. Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. Both of them wrote their wedding vows. I stood there and cried through the whole thing. Was your husband the only one crying that day? No. There were some other. That was a happy day. Absolutely. Carmen met Tom at Ohio State University, but it wasn't a typical college romance.

She was a junior, he was her English professor. Well I was hesitant because I didn't know why a professor would be interested in one of his students. And is he married and how do you know? Mm-hmm. These are questions I've heard parents ask in the past. Absolutely. For sure. Tom Murray was only twenty. A first year professor, and once she met him, Judy was impressed. He was very easy to talk to, very proper, good manners.

You know, everything. Did you like him? Absolutely. Did you love him? Absolutely. Absolutely. Carmen's three little sisters, Samantha, Heather, and April, who never had a brother, were delighted to at last have a brother in law. It was family. It was hang out, we'd have Thanksgiving and Christmas dinner and laugh and tell stories.

Right after they got married they came over every Sunday after church and we had Sunday dinner together. He was attending church with us. He didn't drink excessively, he didn't smoke, he exercised. This is something that the two of us uh created together. He was polite. All the time around everyone. Two out of three children were nestled, each snug in her bed. Heather had fallen asleep on the stairway again and April had to be gagged, tied, and bodily carried up to her room.

And I said, Tom, you're too good to be true.

In nineteen eighty eight, after Carmen graduated from The couple moved to Manhattan, Kansas, where Tom took a job teaching linguistics at Kansas State University. His colleague Lyman Baker says Murray made an immediate impression. A very gentle guy. He had a very sharp mind, personable, reasonable.

Good listener, serious, did his work. You know, I always got the impression from people that they really appreciated having a man like that to work with. And despite the fact that his specialty, linguistics, can be a little tedious. Tom Murray managed to make it almost exciting. He was a great teacher. There seemed to be something very gentle.

And at the same time very endearing and caring. Never came with any notes or anything. He would just come in, sit on the desk just like we are and deliver his lesson. And I thought that was pretty, you know, admirable because he knew everything about the subject. But while Tom Murray was on the academic fast track, Carmen was struggling to find her place in the world. She gave up law after just a few years, and instead hoping to change people's lives in less confrontational ways.

She became a mediator. She would always say she was a recovering attorney. And um she wanted to help people though, so she decided to mediate'cause she thought she could help them come to, you know, a solution without having to go through all Tom and Carmen were searching for a solution to the

problem. They could not decide whether to have a child. When they first got married, they were gonna have children. Tom wanted a bunch. Then they were married for 13 years and now Tom doesn't want any children. And she's now changed careers and now she wants children Despite the disagreement.

pregnant and that December she gave birth to a daughter, Kiara. He was angry, I think, with Carmen being pregnant and never treated her the same after that. I think he punished her. Carmen stopped working. She loved being a mother question other parts of her life. She felt as if she was living a life that just didn't fit very well with how she felt about things and how she believed. Angela Hayes, Carmen's best friend.

It sounds cliche, but she wanted so much to help people. And she felt as if sh she wasn't able to do that in the way that her life was playing out. decision. When Chiara was still a toddler, Carmen changed careers again. A healer. She was in an apprentice program where she was physically doing treatment of people in the local area. And a lot of people made fun of her because they didn't understand it. Perhaps even her husband.

Carmen was practicing consegrity, a spiritual approach to medicine that claims to Teach the body to heal itself. In September 2002, she went to a Consegurity Conference in Wichita, and that's where she met Larry Lima. She came home and said, Have you ever looked into somebody's eyes and just felt like

You know, you were soulmates just like that. The conventional thinking is that's the way you're supposed to feel about your husband. True. And I think she did up until maybe that day. How did she change when she met Larry Lima? She was Carmen again. She had the sparkle back in her eyes. She was like almost too happy. Larry Lima was a social worker living in San Diego. Shortly after they met. Began an affair.

Were you upset about the relationship that she was in? It bothered me, it hurt me. Because she was acting in ways that uh a lot of people in the world act that who don't have respect For their spouse and just are out living for their own self-gratification. But after years of living what Carmen considered an unfulfilled life.

Friends thought change was good for her. She was extremely happy. And not only had I never seen her that happy, I've never seen anybody that happy. She felt that her life was unfolding as she'd always wanted her life to be. And it wasn't long before Carmen decided to be She wanted to divorce Tom Murray. Get him to go to counseling. She tried to make it work, and she eventually just said it isn't going to work.

But the trouble was only just beginning, because Carmen had not only decided to leave Tom, she decided to take their daughter to How does a peace-loving mediator type person react to a nasty custody battle? She described it to us that her mama bear claws are gonna have to come out. Sova gott, gör gott. Nu är det sista dagarna med upp till 50% på sänger hos oss. Så passa på att hitta din favorit och upptäcka även alla vårfräsa bändnyheter. God natt, god morgon, god dag önskar vi på Mio.

She's like the morning light in a very dark night. Larry Lima still remembers the first time Carmen Ross caught his eye. We met at a workshop in Wichita, Kansas. And she had this plate and uh I walked by and she, you know, just very kindly asked if I wanted a piece of watermelon. And I grabbed a watermelon seed and ate it and walked away. She just kind of raised her eyebrows and said afterwards that she knew. But that was the moment.

Larry lives in San Diego, and by the fall of 2002, Carmen was flying to see him as often as possible. She confided to Larry that her marriage to Tom Murray was ending. Something had kind of died inside. She had worked very hard and been unhappy for a very, very long time. In her marriage. In her marriage, yeah. In June 2003, after Murray grudgingly agreed to divorce Carmen, Move to California. Even though Tom Murray didn't want children at first, he now was not about to let go of their children.

We had hoped to work out, you know, some sort of an agreement that uh would be best for Chiara to go back and forth. It just clearly wasn't going to be feasible. Did she want him in her life? Absolutely. In Chiara's life? Absolutely. So did I. And I know how important it is for a child to be with both parents as much as possible. So Carmen left Manhattan and moved here to Lawrence, Kansas, about 90 minutes away from Tom. Larry Lima was now planning to move here and join her.

Carmen and Tom were temporarily sharing custody of Chiara, but working with a mediator to negotiate a permanent settlement. Carmen was determined to work things out. She didn't want to hurt him. Even though she was leaving him, she still wanted she wanted to be friends with him. She really believed that in some point in time they would become friends again. But while Carmen was trying to bridge their differences, Tom was busy burning bridges.

Clearly he was angry and certainly sent emails and phone calls that upset her. Were you surprised that he was putting up such a fight on the custody issue? Oh no. No no because that's all he has left. But also he wanted to win. Carmen was determined to win. She arrived at the end of the year. Her foot down. She told Tom that she wanted Giara to live with her and then I was moving there. And how was she emotionally at that point? I think that in the midst of feeling anxious and and

Uh a bit afraid that there was also a sense of relief. Because she had done it. She had done it. But she was clearly saddened and afraid of how it was gonna turn out. By the next night when Larry called from San Diego, Carmen was feeling better. We'd spoke for Um that she was in a fairly good place. I mean um that we're gonna get through this.

As it turned out, that was the last conversation they ever had. They didn't hear from her that next morning. I uh I knew something was wrong. On Friday afternoon, Larry frantically called the Douglas County Sheriff's Department. Detective Doug Woods went to Carmen's house to investigate.

When he got there, it was almost too much, even for him. Blood on the floor, blood on the walls, blood on the ceiling, furniture had been turned over, potted plants and stuff were broken against the fireplace. There was a great degree of brutality, I think, that went on in this house. And in the middle of the room, Carmen Ross lay dead, beaten and stabbed to death at the age of forty. I remember sensing that um this this is just not true.

Carmen's house was now a crime scene, one that promised a wealth of physical evidence. As crime scene investigators combed the house for clues, Detective Woods drove to Manhattan to tell Tom Murray his ex-wife was dead. Mr. Murray came to the door, opened the door. I told Mr. Murray that his ex wife Carmen had died and that we needed to speak to him about that. What did he say? Mr. Murray asked me if we had to do it right now. He said, Do we have to do this now? And you said

I said it would be best if we could do this right now. So Murray agreed to go with Woods to a nearby police station. Did you have to convince him to talk? No, sir. To the extent that I'm helping in your solving the case, I'm tickled to death to participate. He was free to go. But I'm not holding you here against your will. Yeah.

Okay, you're here of your own free will and you're agreeing to stay and you don't have to keep repeating against that. You haven't been mean to me and you're not holding me against my in fact it turned out the professor Couldn't stop talking. Well, let me ask you this. He sat with Detective Woods and others from eight thirty that night until six o'clock the next morning.

without a lawyer. When this interrogation began, all you had said to to Professor Murray is that his ex wife had died. Yes, sir. Did he want to know what had happened? He never asked me how she died. If I were you, I'd be looking at me. I think you should. So In my mind then tell me what a great guy you are why I shouldn't be pointing the finger at you a little bit right now. Uh, you gotta know me. Um I'm sort of the original Boy Scout.

I mean I've always been the straightest arrow in the quiver. He could explain away everything that we would bring at him. I think he thought he was smarter than we were. I had bought a fresh pineapple and was cutting it apart and sliced into my sliced into my hand there. Murray's right hand had small cuts, and both his wrists were bruised. I mean they all happened in the last two or three days. And Murray vehemently denied killing Carmen. I never wanted Carmen dead. I wanted her reasonable.

You have some kind of strategy in mind when you're talking to him? Basically locking him into his story, then we can start disproving some of the things he says. Mr Murray, however, though, would change his story periodically. You're gonna look at this with a A raised eyebrow. I did go out and drive around with it, but I did not drive too once. I didn't tell you that before. It was a cat and mouse game. That went on all night long.

Crime, you're gonna get caught. The bad guy always gets caught. But if Murray was the bad guy, he wasn't getting caught tonight. So at this point you don't have compelling evidence. You're not gonna you're not gonna Tom get us to sit here and tell you about our case, okay? I don't want you to tell me about the case, but I'm concluding that because if you had compelling evidence, wouldn't you just go ahead and arrest me? At six AM

Tom Murray went home. I was upset with myself because I didn't push the right button or say ask the right questions or go in the right direction to get him to confess. Murray talked so much, he was now their number one suspect. But police had nothing against him. Except a lot of talk. They waited for evidence from the crime scene and finally found nothing. We never found any bloody clothing. We never found a murder weapon. It just didn't exist. Tom Murray continued to teach.

And to raise Kiara over the following months. Danny Ross feared the murder would never be solved. Suspicious of the son-in-law he once loved. How do you come to terms with that? Don't have an answer for that because if I had thought he had actually killed my daughter, I would have hurt him. Right then. Badly. Nearly one year after Carmen Ross was murdered in November 2003, we'd run the gamut of this case. We weren't gonna find any more evidence.

Police still had not arrested anyone. Then in October 2004, detectives Doug Woods, Pat Pollock, and Lyle Hagenbush decided they would have to take a chance on a circumstantial case. They arrested their new people. Number one suspect. Professor Tom Murray. I thought we had a good case. Not great. Not great. Um because we didn't have a lot of physical evidence. It was very hard for Carmen's sisters, Samantha, Heather, and April, to believe the charges.

gave Christmas presents to that you hugged and said you loved you don't want them to be the person who could have done that. Things were about to get tougher for the Rosses. Just three months before Murray's trial began, the district attorney in Lawrence was voted out of office, leaving this case in the hands of Angelo Wilson, an assistant DA. Trouble was she'd never prosecuted a murder before. I've handled a number of rape cases and attempted murder case, but this is by far the most involved.

But Kansas has an unusual law that allows victims to pay for a special prosecutor to help the district attorney's office. So the Ross family hired Tom Bath, a noted defense attorney, to be part of the prosecution team. I'm assistant counsel, which means it's really up to them to decide what role of any I have. In this case, they've allowed me to be a full team member.

Murray has hired two of the state's best attorneys, Pedro Iragonagaray and Bob I. I think our best card is the evidence or the lack thereof.

In February 2005, the Rosses came to Lawrence determined to win two things. All right. A guilty verdict. It's the state of Kansas versus Thomas E. Murray 2004. And custody of Carmen and Tom's daughter Kiara, who'd been living with them since Tom's arrest. On November 13th, 2003, Thomas Murray, a precise, articulate college professor, Bludgeoned his former wife to death in the living room of her home. She's a little nervous.

A few months before Carmen's death, she moved into her own apartment apartment in Manhattan that afternoon at 1215, well excuse me, at 1245, and it would be nearly 24 hours, or over 24 hours, before anybody would know she was dead. Thank you, Your Honor. Defense Attorney Bob I is eager to exploit the weaknesses of Angela Wilson's case. All they had was a hunch, and a hunch is all they have today. It's an emotional day for everyone. This is a photograph of Carmen when she was alive.

She was the person that was a very good thing. After investigating for more than a year, the best piece of evidence against Murray is still the first. I'm gonna go ahead and step out. These folks from Douglas County will go ahead. Investigators ask Murray about the day of Carmen's murder. No, then I drove home and I agree to my midterms.

Murray was seen at 8.30 A.M. when he dropped his daughter off at the babysitters, and again around noon when he got her back. No one saw him in between, and detectives believe that's when he drove 90 miles to Lawrence. In my mind, I can't get there and back inside of the time I have available. But Detective Lyle Hagenbush says Murray could. Hagenbush knows because he did it. We were able to show that Tom Murray could drive from Manhattan to Lawrence.

and have plenty of time to kill Carmen Ross and return to Manhattan. Detectives don't think it would have taken long for Murray to kill Carmen. They think he beat her first, then stabbed Carmen with a knife he got from her kitchen. I didn't do it. I mean I'll sit here and say this until I'm blue in the face. You can choose to believe me or not. All I can do is tell you the truth. There are times when Murray appears genuinely upset.

And times when he's not. You are a very skilled interviewer, Pat. You've been trained very well. You too, Doug. I mean you're you're good at what you guys do. You knew during the time that when the defense finally gets a chance to speak, Pedro Iragonigarai says, even though it lasted almost ten hours. Tom Murray's statement proves it.

Nothing. Have you found one bit of conclusive proof that Mr. Murray was at Carmen Ross's house on the thirteenth of November? I'm not aware of any. In fact, the state's own forensic experts, who prosecutors hope will link Murray to the crime, actually helped the defense team make its case. tested from Miss Ross's home and in none of those Mr. Murray's DNA was found, correct?

There's no DNA, and there's only one fingerprint matching Tom Murray's. The only fingerprint that was found of Thomas Murray's was on a brown dropper bottle. And no prints of his were found anywhere else. It is true, is it not? Then the defense says the evidence suggests there was more than one person at the crime scene. Police found what looked like two bloody shoe prints. Neither of those two shoe prints.

Matched anything to your knowledge belonging to Mr. Murray. That's correct. No further questions. Faced with a lack of forensic evidence, the prosecution argues Murray is the only person with a motive to kill Carmen. They believe he exploded after a mediation session just two days before the murder. It was apparent to her that they were going to have to go into a custody battle. And prosecutors say Tom Murray had another motive, the oldest one in the book.

Jealousy because Carmen's fiance, Larry Lima, was about to move to Lawrence. Were you in love with her? Passionately. When were you planning to move to Lawrence? First part of December. He seemed to shovel He seemed tired. The trial is long. Were you able to determine the number of stab wounds here in this neck area? That would be thirteen. And at times difficult. This is a tear of the tissue that's been caused by a crush of the tissue between a hard object and the bone underneath.

It's a non-feel. Because as I s sit there and I Yeah. I don't think a human being should have to think. Prosecutors say Murray carefully planned Carmen's murder and cleaned up afterwards. And they're about to present some startling evidence explaining how an English professor could possibly know so much.

About murder. These are the computers that were taken from Mr. Murray. The search term was how to murder someone and not get caught. McDonald's är stolt sponsor av melodifestivalten. Så tillåt oss att presentera ett av våra bidrag. Festivalmenyn. Sourch andion company Fyra Pepperchicken. Festivalmaten finns på McDonald's. Hi, I'm Katie Ring, and welcome to Crime House 247. Throughout the day, we bring

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After weeks of testimony, Professor Thomas Murray's attorneys say things are going their way. The physical evidence that they've presented is has by and large shown exactly what we thought it would and that is that Tom Murray was not at the scene of this crime. That's just what Danny Ross is worried about. If in fact the worst case happens, And he is acquitted.

then the jury is gonna put him back with my granddaughter. Yes. Three generations of Rosses from five different states have moved to Lawrence, Kansas for the duration of the trial. Detectives were unable to find any evidence during the But the routine client is becoming a grind. It's really hard to sit there patiently and let them do their job. And it concerns me.

Is he going to get the justice that he really deserves? There's good reason for the Rosses to be nervous. And I think, Carmen, that is a lie. The prosecutors started out strongly. playing Tom Murray's revealing police interview. All right. But now assistant DA Angela Wilson is having a tough time trying her first murder.

What was the quantity of blood involved in that case? Objection, Your Honor. This that's not relevant. On a case of this magnitude, it has been overwhelming at times. Questions about websites and But things are starting to look up for the prosecution and the Rosses. The jury is about to hear the most powerful forensic evidence yet, and it's got nothing to do with blood or DNA.

Have you ever uh gotten on the internet, looked up any websites that have to do with crime scenes or polygraphs? Oh, I got on the C S I uh website, occasionally have fantasies about trying to make it as a uh Freelance writer. Investigators could not have imagined what they'd discover when they confiscated Murray's computers. It turns out the professor was not just researching linguistics, although there is a word for the kind of searches he was doing online. Suspicious, maybe even damaged.

Robert Dean Brown. Dean Brown is a forensic computer expert. He dug around in the recesses of Murray's computer. Uh eleven twenty-five AM the search for Onyahoo. quotes murder for hire. Just a few seconds later, is there another search done? Yes, ma'am. There's a search for how to hire an assassin. Did you find anything of shortly more than an hour later? And there was a search for

How to make a bomb. It's beginning to sound like a prosecutor's dream. It shows Yahoo's search for how to murder someone and not get caught. Investigators were thrilled with the secrets Murray's computers revealed. Especially when they learned the searches were conducted just as the custody battle Tom and Carmen were having. was getting nasty. When you have somebody searching numerous times for this kind of topic and then somebody winds up dead.

Yeah, it's kind of a clue. You're hoping in part to to hoist this guy on his own hard drive. Sure. Yes. Can you do it? The evidence is there. But the defense has an explanation. The next page shows a site visit on the tenth of November to something called twistv.com slash scripts slash CSI. Mr. Murray was interested in the possibility of writing an episode for a CSI type program. Is your best explanation of these internet searches?

That they're just an unfortunate coincidence? What would you like for us to do? Invent something? I mean, d a trial lawyer works with what he or she has to work with. The computers offer up more bad news for Professor Murray. Emails that show his anger with Carmen was growing. And even more pissed at her for beginning an intimate relationship with another man. and even more pissed at her for continuing that relationship

through all the months that she and I were supposed to be making an effort at working things out. But I can't just sit back and have my daughter taken away from me. I'm increasingly coming to feel like an animal that's being backed into a corner.

The prosecution rest. Tom Murray's defense will make three main points. First, a custody attorney told Murray he had no reason to fear that Carmen would take Kiara away. one parent wants to leave the state of Kansas, fine, but they don't take the child with them. Next, the defense argues, even though Murray expressed his anger in emails. Still committed to working with Carmen, and the first time I was a very good thing. According to the mediator herself, Nancy Hughes.

They worked well together. It was Pretty clear that they were trying to support each other in doing in taking care of their daughter. And finally, the defense argues not only is there no evidence Professor Murray was even at the crime scene, there's a mystery bloodstain on Carmen's sink. Suggesting someone else was at Carmen's house. Defense expert Robert Tressel. Would you please describe for the jury?

What that stain represents to you? What we call a a pattern blood stain transfer. You have an opinion as to what Could have caused that particular stain on that pedestal sink. My impression is this is a tennis shoe print. If it is a shoe print, the defense says it's not Murray. Can we get copies of your notes, please? But Angela Wilson has hit her stride and hits back, attacking the experts' expertise. You don't have any certifications in the area of blood stain analysis, do you?

Certifications I'm sorry, sir, but that's a question that just requires a yes or no answer. So if you could please answer my question, the one that I'm asking. You don't have any certifications in the area of blood stain pattern analysis, do you? No, I do not. I felt I could see Angela just get a little more confident as the trial went along. I think she did a superb job. Look at the knife.

Look at the edge. And she saved a little drama for her closing argument. This is a person who was bent on murder thirteen times. He slammed that knife into her neck. Ladies and gentlemen. Tom Murray never takes the stand. The defense pins its hopes on reasonable doubt. I said and they argue there is plenty of it. Carl let's go back to the crime scene. There's none of his blood there.

None of his fingerprints. None of his footprints. No one sees his car there. No one. Nor any scientific test can put Tom Murray on that house on the 13th.

For the Ross the trial. decide. I recognize that the jury could find him innocent. And if he is found innocent, then my heart will be broken again because we'll have to give our granddaughter to him. I'm past being hurt. angry at what this man did to my daughter. It's been nearly a year and a half since Danny Ross's daughter Carmen was murdered. He has now taken her away from us so I never get a chance to hug her ever again. There's no doubt in the Ross's minds about who killed Carmen.

The fate of the accused murderer, her ex-husband, Tom Murray, now rests with the jury. It's putting the case in the hands of 12 people that don't know everything that we know. They get to make the decision, and that's that's very tough. I have looked over at him still sitting there and I watch him. I'm like, I loved you. There's no wiggle room for the jurors. They either have to convict Murray of first-degree murder or set him free. Everything is on the table as we speak.

Right over there. Murray's attorneys repeatedly argued that But Murray's life is not the only one at stake. Ross and Murray shared custody of the if he's acquitted, the Rosses would have to give him the daughter he had with Carmen. It's the worst case scenario the Rosses hope they'll never face. My daughter was killed and we can't bring her back.

But m having my granddaughter raised in a proper environment is what my daughter would have wanted. And that's the most important thing to our family. All right. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you're about to give in the state? It took five weeks to present all the evidence, and the jury is taking its time going through it all. I believe he's guilty and I believe he's going to be found guilty.

After three days of deliberations, there's a verdict. It is St. Patrick's Day and the professor appears relaxed, reading a book on the Polish language, even as he waits for the jury to come back. All right. State of Kansas versus Thomas E. Murray verdict. We the jury find the defendant Thomas E. Murray guilty of murder in the first degree. Murray is one of the few people in the courtroom who contains himself.

Carmen's family is overwhelmed. And you've gotten the outcome that you wanted. What does justice feel like? Thank God. For so long it has been all about this process coming to an end today, this imagining this day. And that we have Chiara, she's safe. Now I can really mourn for Carmen. It is also an emotional victory for the prosecutors, especially Angela Wilson, who began this trial as a rookie against seasoned defense attorneys.

And one big I think this is the the first time I've ever seen a prosecutor cry at a verb. Well when it was a good one? Yeah. There was just so much emotion around this case and around the family and It has been very good to be included in the family fold. I think I joked early on that I was an honorary Ross girl. Carmen's family and her fiance have the verdict they want, and they know it's now time to move on.

I'm convinced that this is a domestic violence-related homicide. Larry remembers Carmen by volunteering with domestic violence victims at the Family Justice Center in San Diego. Every victim that comes in here, it's like, okay, Carmen, you know, how do we how do we go about making this person's life a little less traumatic? It will be a little harder for the who once considered Murray a son and a brother. This guy was part of your life. Absolutely.

And it is a very con it's a very confusing, conflicting feeling. Because I have no doubt that it were his hands that hurt her. But I don't know what happened to his head. To come to realize that someone that you love took away someone that you love. How am I supposed to explain that to my kids when I don't get it? And uh his daughter. There'll be no explanations from Tom Murray, who remained defiant at his sentencing.

I remain non-plussed that the jury believed the prosecution's fairy tale of my involvement in Carmen Ross's death. He insisted he was innocent and refused to apologize. I have never raised my hand in anger against any one. Not ever. Much less against the woman with whom I created a child. And in a rare display of emotion. Dear Chiara. He saved his last words for his daughter. Since I can't be with you, I'm very glad you're able to live with people who love you so much.

Kiara, who is now nine, At home. I asked her, I said, Are you worried about who's gonna take care of you? And she looked at me like this and she said, No. I'm glad I have my family to take care of. And she's got an entire family that adores her and would be. Yeah, we'll take care of her. Together we will take care of her. Tom Murray was sentenced to life in prison. Larry Lima after twenty eleven.